More on Gaurava

[Kripamoya]

Most of us don't argue that there is some validity to the raganuga-sadhana process.

What we argue is that the process can get into the hands of unfit and unqualified persons who will then pollute the whole Krishna consciousness movement with the same kind of sahajiya nonsense that has been passed off as "traditional" Gaudiya practice for hundreds of years.

 

We can see that practically, that immature and unfit persons are on the internet trying to make the most esoteric and exotic aspects of Gaudiya sadhana into a subject for the streets and the marketplace of imitation gurus.

 

Maybe one out of a million fakers who get "siddha-pranali" ever perfect that practice.

 

these rest of them are just dreamers and schemers.

[Kripamoya]

Because the fact of the matter is that all these so-called "siddha-pranali" people do advocate that householders are supposed to think that the husband represents Krishna and the wife represents Radha.

Thus, they teach that you can be Krishna conscious while having sex with your wife and it will advance your bhakti by having sex with your wife.

 

That's where the sahajiya principle kicks-in with these "traditionalists".

 

they would be better off if they just admitted to themselves while they were having sex with their wives that they are in maya and that they need to get out of maya.

 

Mahaprabhu refused to let Jagadananda pandit to associate with the Brajabasis, because he did not want him to get polluted with this kind of thinking.

[raga]

 

Because the fact of the matter is that all these so-called "siddha-pranali" people do advocate that householders are supposed to think that the husband represents Krishna and the wife represents Radha.

Thus, they teach that you can be Krishna conscious while having sex with your wife and it will advance your bhakti by having sex with your wife.

 

That's where the sahajiya principle kicks-in with these "traditionalists".

Okay, so who else are you talking about except Jagat?

[Kripamoya]

 

"Some ignorant people say that there is no siddha-pranali in the Gaudiya Matha. This vicious propaganda is erroneous in all respects. In the authentic literature written by Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami entitled Sat-kriya-sara-dipika and Samskara-dipika, which is a supplement to Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa, there is an account of the tridandi-sannyasa samskara. . . . In this sannyasa samskara, dor-kaupina, bahir-vasa and the sannyasamantra for taking shelter of gopi-bhava are also given. The eka-dasa-bhava (eleven aspects of gopi-bhava), namely sambandha, vayah, nama, rupa, yutha, vesa, ajna, vasa, seva, parakashta-svasa and palya-dasi-bhava, are contained within this gopibhava. The identity of the siddha-deha is determined by the instructions of Sri Guru in accordance with the ruci of the sadhaka. One’s own nama, rupa, vayasa, vesa, sambandha, yutha, ajna, vasa, parakashta-svasa and palya-dasi bhava given by guru is called siddha-pranali."

 

-- B.V. Narayana Maharaja in the 4th chapter of Prabandha-pancakam

 

An interesting related note is to be found in Bhakti Vikasa Swami's upcoming title on the life of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati:

 

Out of around ten thousand initiated disciples, he gave thirteen babaji initiations. Jyotisekhara recalls some of their names: Bhaktisvarupa Puri Goswami; Tirtha Goswami; Bhaktisaranga Maharaja, etc. They were so absorbed in bhajan that even when it was time for eating they were unaware.

...

Sarasvati Thakur gave trija (third birth), or manjari-svarupa (siddha-svarupa), to thirteen of his disciples; not all at once, but at different times, according to the rules given in Sat Kriya Sara Dipika - a book by Gopal Bhatta Goswami, which describes the different rituals for Vaishnava rites. Their samadhis were also made according to Sat Kriya Sara Dipika. Some of the samadhis are at Mayapur, and some at the Radha Damodar temple in Vrndavan. Some were grhasthas and some were tyagis. Since that time, in our line (Sarasvati Thakura's line), no one has given this trija.

. . .

He warned his babaji disciples not to tell their manjari svarup to others. They would stay in the Mathas, in the three dhamas of Vrndavan, Navadvip, and Puri, and attend all the temple functions, such as lectures and kirtans, but they themselves would not give lectures in the temple. They would go for bhiksa (begging for alms) and go outside for nagar sankirtan. They wouldn't go for preaching and most of their time would be spent in bhajan. Sometimes they would help with the Deity worship, or arcana.

 

Perhaps Sridhar Maharaj wasn't among them -- I couldn't say. Of interest is also the fact that...

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj received "siddha-pranali" from his father, Sri Nitaipada Dasadhikari, a Guru in the "Nityananda Vamsa".

 

-- Muralidhar Das @ 04/15/05 07:34 PM, Audarya-Fellowship

Good job Madhava!

Let's break down the flood gates and turn the whole movement into a western version of the same kind of sahajiyaism that sprang out of this "raganuga" sadhana that was meant for the most advanced and rigid practitioners of a bygone era.

 

It's a sad day when ISKCON sannyasis participate in the effort to inject the seeds of sahajiyaism into the movement.

[Beggar]

 

I guess you are trying to say that Sridhar Maharaja got siddha-pranali from Saraswati Goswami?

Otherwise, I don't see how I are appear to assuming anything.

 

Sridhar Maharaja said emphatically that "we are not believers in that".

 

I think he made it quite clear about his position on the siddha-pranali concept.

I am not assuming that, but you are implying that you know everything about Sridhar Maharaja.

[Kripamoya]

 

I am not assuming that, but you are implying that you know everything about Sridhar Maharaja.

All I know is what Sridhar Maharaja wanted us to know.

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja: And that is the distinction between Gaudiya Math and the Sahajiya section. They are trying to imitate all these things but we have no faith in imitation. It will come in individual case and it will awaken in an irresistible way. When the program of the sadhana stage is finished, it will come automatically, spontaneously. We are believers in that. Not to know the form already and then we will reach there; that is not the policy accepted by Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur]

I think that says the same thing I have been saying.

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja: So our Prabhupada did not allow these things. Do your duty in your plane what you deserve will come naturally. That is his instruction, all through, not only temporarily, but throughout, don't be a disbeliever, very eager to see the final result. Don't do like that. You will get maya instead of yogamaya.

[Kripamoya]

so, you guys are saying that Sridhar Maharaja didn't read Ujjvala-nilamani and Govinda-lilamrita, but he got siddha-pranali from Saraswati Thakur?

 

Saraswati Thakur did not allow his disciples to read Ujjvala-nilamani, but he gave them siddha-pranali?

 

The problem is that too many devotees are accepting the poison being administered by Narayana Maharaja as being representative of Srila Saraswati Goswami.

 

it is NOT!

[Kripamoya]

 

Okay, so who else are you talking about except Jagat?

Well Madhava, if you can seperate yourself from Jagat's tantric conceptions, then that is good.

 

Trying to explain away sense gratification as some kind of raganuga sadhana is as bogus as it can get.

 

If you don't practice or to that kind of nonsense, then that is good.

 

You know I have love-hate feelings about you.

 

I know you are a very bright boy and a very devout devotee.

 

I don't pretend to be better than you.

 

I argue and debate concepts and principles.

 

Claiming to be personally better than anyone on this forum is not what I am saying.

 

I am not the best by a long shot.

 

I'll humbly take my position at the bottom of the heap.

[Kripamoya]

Sridhar Maharaja wanted us to think like this...

 

I may engage myself in the lower form of service: tad dasa dasa dasanam dasatvam dehi me prabho: my faith may be so firm, may be of such quality that the least offer of his divine service may satisfy me. I should not be ambitious to run high, to get the chance there in the higher officer class. With my lowest connection with divinity I may go on satisfied with my ideal.

[raga]

 

Well Madhava, if you can seperate yourself from Jagat's tantric conceptions, then that is good.

I am assuming that goes without saying. I also cannot think of any other practicing "trad." Gaudiya who would to his views on sex and sexuality -- sahajiyas aside, but they are pretty much universally recognized as such, regardless of on which side of the Gaudiya Math fence you are.

 

Should it be of interest, my views on the topic are available here.

[shiva]

Raga do you have the transcripts of that book by Bhakta Vikas Swami? If so are there sources for his claims about siddha pranali given by Bhaktisiddhanta? If so can you cite those sources?

[Guest guest]

Text 22

khalata dasame laksya kaliye sarpa-rupake

sampradaya-virdho yam davanalo vicintyate

 

Kaliya's malice always pollutes the water of the Yamuna, which is the spiritual liquid of the Vaisnavas. It is everyone's duty to give up this tenth obstacle [see Appendix C].

 

The eleventh obstacle of the Vaisnavas is sectarianism, which takes the shape of the forest fire.Due to sectarianism a person cannot accept anyone outside of his own group as a Vaisnava, and a result he faces many obstacles in finding a guru and associating with devotees. Therefore extinguising the forest fire is most important.

 

Sri Krsna-samhita Ch.8 Text 22/ Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur

 

Appendix C

 

 

 

 

The Serpent Kaliya

 

The following essay was printed in the May 1932 edition of

The Harmonist, or Sree Sajjanatoshani.

 

 

There is a beautiful lake of very sweet water in the Yamuna which bears the name of Kaliya. This lake happened to be infested by a most venomous Serpent from whom the lake derives its name. On a certain day while the cow-boys of Braja were out pasturing their calves on the wooded banks of the Yamuna they happened to feel thirsty and not knowing that the water of the lake had been poisoned by Kaliya drank of its water which resulted in their instantaneous death. On being apprised of their plight Krishna came to the spot and restored them to life.

 

 

Thereafter Krishna got down into the lake with the intention of sporting in its water. This enraged the hideous monster who forthwith came out of the depths of the lake in the company of his adherents and fell upon Krishna coiling Him up in their great hoods for Kaliya was a thousand-hooded Serpent and his brood were equally formidable.

 

 

Thus attacked by Kaliya with his whole brood Krishna appeared to faint away under their murderous onslaught. On seeing Him apparently slain by His enemies the cow-boys and all the assembled milkmen filled the air with their loud lamentations. But Krishna soon showed that He was quite safe and He forthwith climbed up the hoods of Kaliya and began to dance on his thousand heads. He danced in an infinite variety of the most marvelous of figures. The pressure of Krishna's Feet crushed the towering pride of the myriad-hooded monster. Kaliya lowered his hoods and vomited blood. But the Dance of Krishna did not cease. Kaliya was found tottering towards death when his wives came out of the lake and with palms joined in prayer begged Krishna to spare the life of their husband. The prayers of the wives of Kaliya who had faith in Krishna moved the Son of Nanda to have mercy on Kaliya. Krishna now desisted from His terrific Dance on condition that Kaliya was to quit the lake at once and to betake himself to his original home in the island of Ramanaka. Krishna gave him His assurance that Garuda would now do him no harm as he would respect the print of His Feet on hoods of Kaliya. The water of the Kaliya lake was now rendered immune from all poison and became as sweet as it was before the advent of Kaliya.

 

 

The taming of Kaliya is one of the Brindaban Pastimes of Boy-Krishna. Kaliya is the type of cunning and malice. He is the embodiment of unrelenting cruelty. There is no place for Kaliya in the happy realm of Braja. Deceit and cruelty are as poison to the artless loving nature of the denizens of Braja. It is quite conceivable for the confiding chums of Krishna not to entertain any suspicion regarding the malicious intention of cruel and deceitful persons whose purpose is to poison them against Krishna. They may even unwittingly fall into the counsel of such evil persons. But Krishna is sure to rescue His Own from the wiles of His enemy.

 

 

Nay Krishna has also a plan for curing the evil propensity of Kaliya himself. The process consists in making him feel the touches of His Dancing Feet. But Kaliya attempts to bear up against all curative chastisement. Instead of feeling the joy of supporting the Feet of Krishna on his nasty hoods the monster finds it impossible to bear his good fortune without undergoing the pangs of actual death. Even the loyal wives of Kaliya who desire the reformation of the monster and whose good wishes for his well-being are the cause of Krishna's mercy towards him are at last forced to intercede by a prayer for his banishment from the realm of Braja. But the pride of Kaliya had received a mortal check.

 

 

The banishment of Kaliya from the lake of the Yamuna has a most important spiritual significance. Those who have a purpose to create trouble among the pure devotees of Krishna by infecting their nature with their own malicious disposition meet with a certain degree of initial success in their nefarious undertaking. This emboldens them to make a direct attack on Krishna Himself when He appears on the scene of their depraved activities in order to restore the living faith of His Own bonafide associates.

 

 

Those who are not exceedingly clever can never be servants of Krishna. But the service of Krishna is also never available to those whose cunning is employed for depriving Krishna of the fullness of His enjoyment. Kaliya and those who are actuated by a naturally malicious disposition are also styled clever in the ordinary phraseology of this damned world. Such rascals may also have the impudence of taking their stand upon the texts of the Scriptures by using their cunning in the graceless attempt of depriving Krishna of the service His Own. This kind of conduct may also pass undetected and may even be regarded as possessing the perfect skill of confidential service. But Krishna is sure to expose the real nature of the villainy just at the moment when it has been successful in misleading His best-beloved ones.

 

 

It is, indeed, very difficult to understand the Ways of Krishna. Krishna apparently permits almost every form of offense to be perpetrated with impunity against His most beloved ones. This has the effect of providing an opportunity to His Own for proving their incomparable love for Himself and by means of this unique exhibition of their love to defeat in the most fruitful manner the machinations of His worst enemies. The friends and chums of Krishna are offered to the malice of cunning and relentless brutes in order to bring out the difference between the two and thereby enable the latter to desist from troubling the devotees of their own accord.

 

 

But these brutes are never allowed to associate with the servants of Krishna even after they forego their malice towards them. They are eternally debarred from the service of Krishna in Braja. But the touch of Krishna's Feet makes a real difference between the recipient of His mercy and the other brutes. Kaliya is no longer regarded by Garuda as the enemy of Krishna. Kaliya is, therefore, allowed a place among the protected of Krishna.

 

 

It does not follow that it is a paying business to poison the hearts of His servants against Krishna which is sure to be rewarded by the grant of His protection. Yes, this is so after the pride of the miscreant is thoroughly broken by being trod upon by Krishna Himself. His is thereby inspired with a most wholesome dread which effectively prevents him from trying to breed mischief among the bonafide devotees by owning an unwilling allegiance to Krishna and assuming the badge of His servitude by wearing on his head the print of His lotus Feet.

 

 

The mercy shown to Kaliya is so obviously and disproportionately great in its magnitude in face of the extreme gravity of his offense that no rationalistic explanation can do justice to its full beneficent significance.

[raga]

 

Raga do you have the transcripts of that book by Bhakta Vikas Swami? If so are there sources for his claims about siddha pranali given by Bhaktisiddhanta? If so can you cite those sources?

As noted in the quoted passage itself, based on the words of Jyotisekhar Das, disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. I believe Jyotisekhar was / is from Gaudiya Mission.

[Kripamoya]

 

An interesting related note is to be found in Bhakti Vikasa Swami's upcoming title on the life of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati:

So, Bhakti Vikasa Swami is now attemtping to make widescale public propaganda about something that was supposed to be top secret and confidential and had heretofore never been explained in this way by any follower of Siddhanta Saraswati?

 

See, this is where the whole thing get's spoiled and turned into a circus.

[raga]

I would assume that to be well known in Gaudiya Mission.

[Kripamoya]

 

I would assume that to be well known in Gaudiya Mission.

Neither Srila Prabhupada or Sridhar Maharaja ever made these kinds of claims in front of the international Krishna consciousness movement.

[shiva]

Narayana Maharaja also teaches that siddha pranali is part of the Gaudiya Math. If people accept it as authentic, fine with me, good luck with that. Nevertheless it's not necessary for someone to receive siddha pranali in order to obtain a relationship with Sri Radha Govinda.

 

Anyone who teaches that siddha pranali is necessary is simply ignorant and inexperienced. From my perspective siddha pranali is just another motivation to increase sravanam and kirtanam for certain people who may need that. It's not some magical rite which need be undertaken by everyone. It's just another ritual to aid in the development of one's spiritual awareness.

 

But there are those who think it is something much more then that. They think it is some kind of magical ritual which elevates people to the highest level and that those who receive it are on a higher level then those who do not.

 

No ritual nor any initiation can elevate someone to the position of an intimate associate of the Lord. That is only given by the Lord to the devotee, no one else can make you a self realized soul with the ability to relate directly with the Lord on an intimate level. You either experience that or you don't. I cannot see for you, I cannot think for you, in the same way no one can be self realized for you, nor can they give you your relationship with the Lord. Others may be able to give instructions on how to relate with the Lord, but no one can give you that relationship but the Lord. Someone may tell me about my father whom I have never met and who lives in china, but unless I contact my father directly, my relationship with him is only in the conceptual realm.

[Guest guest]

SBSST writes in his commentary on the 5th verse of Srila Rupa Gosvami's Upadesamrta as follows:

 

"In Bhakti-sandharbha (868) Sri Jiva Gosvami defines the procedure knows as visnava-diksa in the following statement.

 

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmad diskseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

" That process which bestows transcendental knowledge (divya-jnana) and destroys sinful desires for material sense enjoyment is called diksa by learned authorities in the absolute truth."

 

One should silently respect a devotee who, knowing that Sri Krsna and sri-rksna-nama are non different and transcendental and that sri nama alone is the supreme object of worship and bhajana takes exclusive shelter of krsna-nama and is devoited to chanting. Although the mantras which the disciple receives at the time of diksa consist entirely of sri-nama, the names which form the basis of those mantras are endowed with specific knowledge of the disciples relationship with the Lord. Without taking shelter of harinama, one cannot become hari-jana or a member of Ksna's family. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu determined the gradation in Vaisnavas through showing the gradations in their faith in harinama. . . "

 

Fortunately for us, the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami include the first two angas of bhakti and also in the later sections of his Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu he includes the role Sri Guru takes in eventually revealing to any qualified sadhaka, his svarupa siddhi.

 

 

In the 4th chapter of his book Five Essential Essays - Prabandha Panchakam SBVNM has written about siddha pranali . He never advocates any practice of raganuga bhakti prematurely or for those who lack the qualifications and adhikara to practice it.

 

 

Siddha-pranali

 

Siddha-pranali is very much misused nowadays in certain places in Vrajamandala,Gauda-mandala and Ksetra-mandala. Some people are abused andeven driven from their homes when their wives pass away. Although they arebereft of tattva-jnana and unaware of vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, they have their headsshaved in the middle of the night, put on kaupina and quickly take siddha-pranali.These days siddha-pranali can be obtained very easily by giving half a rupee. Justbefore giving mantra a financial contract takes place. These people think, “There can be no auspiciousness for sadhakas until they acquire siddha-pranali. There is no necessity for vaidhi-bhakti sadhana, tattva-jnana or anartha-nivrtti. The raganuga-bhakta should obtain siddha-pranali before he goes through anarthanivrtti. In that way he can avoid getting caught in the inconvenience of vaidhibhakti.” These people’s conception is exactly like thinking that a fruit will grow from a leaf before the appearance of a flower.

 

About fifty-five years ago, we were performing Vraja-mandala parikrama with

Paramaradhyatama Srila Gurudeva. Approximately four hundred pilgrims

attending the parikrama were staying in a large dharma-sala in Mathura.

Gurudeva had made a big feast there, to which all the local sadhus, saints andVaisnavas had been invited. Babajis who had accepted bheka also assembled therein very large numbers. When they came to meet with Srila Gurudeva, he became very curious and asked them, “What is the aim and object of your Krsna bhajana?” They were taken aback when they heard this question, but after thinking about it they said, “By performing Krsna bhajana we will attain mukti and merge into Krsna.” When Guruji heard their answer, he became very sad. On questioning them further, he found that women were also staying in their asramas as maidservants. From that day on, he vowed to reform these malpractices which had spread in the Gaudiya Vaisnava society. I have indicated this before. In spite of being busy in preaching suddha-bhakti throughout his life, he never forgot this matter. A great deal of credit for the improvement and reform of this situation goes to this maha-purusa. Here I am presenting whatever views I have heard from him on this subject.

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami has defined the following sequence which we have to

follow in order to enter into the realm of bhakti.

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga ‘tha bhajana-kriya

tato ‘nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

Bhakti flees very far away when the sadhaka transgresses this sequence.

Therefore it is extremely necessary to execute the first anga of sadhana-bhakti,namely vaidhi-bhakti or regulative devotional service, in order to enter the realmof prema. Vaidhi-bhakti is not directly the cause of the attainment of Krsna prema.Still, it is necessary to observe the appropriate limbs of vaidhi-bhakti in order toenter into raga-marga. Vaidhi-bhakti is established on the steadfast foundation ofscriptural evidence and it is endowed with powerful codes of correct behaviour.Moreover, there is no particular difference between the observance of the limbsof raganuga sadhana-bhakti and vaidhi-bhakti. The difference is only in devotion tothe observance. Thus the angas of vaidhi-bhakti sadhana cannot be neglected entirely. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed Sri Sanatana Gosvami on the subject of the prayojana-tattva, which is Krsna prema, he said,

 

kona bhagye kona jivera ‘sraddha’ yadi haya

tabe sei jiva ‘saadhu-sanga’ ye karaya

sadhu-sanga haite haya ‘sravana-kirtana’

sadhana-bhaktye haya ‘sarvanartha-nivartana’

anartha-nivrtti haile bhaktye ‘nistha’ haya

nistha haite sravanadye ’ruci’ upajaya

ruci haite bhaktye haya ‘asakti pracura

asakti haite citte janme krsne prity-ankura

sei ’bhava’ gadha haile dhare ‘prema’-nama

sei prema— ’prayojana’ sarvananda-dhama

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 23.9-13)

 

“If by good fortune a jiva develops sraddha, he begins to associate with sadhus,and in that company he engages in hearing and chanting. By following sadhanabhakti he becomes free from all anarthas and advances with firm faith (nistha) whereby ruci (taste) awakens for sravana, kirtana and so on. After ruci, then asakti (deep attachment) arises, and from abundant asakti the seed of priti (affection) is born in the heart. When that emotion intensifies, it is called prema. This prema is life’s ultimate goal and the abode of all joy.”

 

It is quite impossible for one who transgresses this sequence to enter the realm of bhakti. Thus, those who want to enter this domain while neglecting the limbs of vaidhi sadhana-bhakti are in all respects unrestrained and outside the conclusions of sastra. They have no relation at all with suddha-bhakti.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has also expressed the same opinion.

 

vidhi-marga rata jane svadhinata ratna-dane

raga-marga karana pravesa

 

By considering the gradations of sadhya-vastu (objectives) we find that the

prema of Srimati Radhaji for Krsna is the crest-jewel. Furthermore, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has explained that the sadhya for the living entities is Radha dasya, service to Srimati Radhika imbued with parakiya-bhava. In order to obtain that

 

sadhya-vastu, sadhana is necessary.

sadhya-vastu sadhana vina keha nahi paya

krpa kari kaha raya pabara upaya

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8.197)

 

“The goal of life (sadhya-vastu) cannot be achieved unless one accepts the

appropriate process (sadhana). Now, being merciful upon Me, please explain that means by which this goal can be attained.”

 

In reply to this Sri Raya Ramananda says,

 

radha-krsnera lila ei ati gudhatara

dasya-vatsalyadi-bhave na haya gocara

sabe eka sakhi-ganera ihan adhikara

sakhi haite haya ei lilara vistara

sakhi vina ei lila pusta nahi haya

sakhi lila vistariya, sakhi asvadaya

sakhi vina ei lilaya anyera nahi gati

sakhi-bhave ye tanre kare anugati

radha-krsna kunja-seva-sadhya sei paya

sei sadhya paite ara nahika upaya

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8. 201-205)

 

“The pastimes of Radha and Krsna are very confidential and cannot be

understood through the mellows of servitude, fraternity or paternal affection.

Actually, only the gopis have the right to appreciate these transcendental

pastimes, and only from them can these pastimes be expanded. Without the

gopis, these pastimes between Radha and Krsna cannot be nourished. Only by

their cooperation are such pastimes broadcast. It is their business to taste themellows. One cannot enter into these pastimes without the help of the gopis. Only one who does bhajana in the ecstasy of the gopis, following in their footsteps, can engage in the service of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna in the groves of Vrndavana. Only then can one understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. There is no other procedure for understanding.”

 

ataeva gopi-bhava kari angikara

ratri-dina cinte radha-krsnera vihara

siddha-dehe cinti’ kare tahanni sevana

sakhi-bhave paya radha-krsnera carana

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8. 228-229)

 

“Therefore one should accept the mood of the gopis in their service. In such a

transcendental mood, one should always think of the pastimes of Sri Radha andKrsna. After meditating on Radha and Krsna for a long time in the internally

conceived spiritual body, one attains the opportunity to serve the lotus feet ofRadha-Krsna as one of the Vraja devis.”

 

Essentially the gist of the matter is that the love-laden lila of Radha-Krsna is

so confidential and so full of mysteries that it is imperceptible, even for those inmoods such as dasya and vatsalya. Only the sakhis are eligible for this. Therefore, no one can attain the service of Srimati Radhika or the kunja-seva of Sri Radha- Krsna Yugala by sadhana without anugatya of the sakhis, that is being under their guidance. Thus the only means of attaining this supreme sadhya is meditation on the lilas of Radha-Krsna throughout the day and night by the internally conceived siddha-deha and in the mood of the sakhis. For this reason, Srila Rupa Gosvami has given this instruction in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu in the section on the sadhana of sri raganuga-bhakti:

 

krsnam smaran janan casya prestham nija samihitam

tat-tat katha ratas casau kuryad vasam vraje sada

seva sadhaka-rupena siddha-rupena catra hi

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja-lokanusaratah

sravanotkirttanadini vaidhi bhakty uditani tu

yanyangani ca tanyatra vijneyani manisibhih

 

Here Srila Rupa Gosvami has mentioned two types of sadhana in raganuga

bhakti-seva:

 

seva sadhaka-rupena siddha-rupena catra hi

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja-lokanusaratah

 

When there is lobha, greed for ragatmika bhakti, raganuga bhakti is executed in two ways: in the sadhaka-rupa, the external body in which one is presently

situated, and in the siddha-rupa. Eagerly desiring to attain rati for Krsna or the bhava (ecstatic sentiments) of one’s chosen associates of Krsna, one must follow the associates of Vrajaloka such as Lalita, Visakha, Rupa Manjari and their followers such as Sri Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami. One must render bodily service with the sadhaka-rupa following the great authorities residing in Vraja such as Sri Rupa and Sanatana. And with the siddha-rupa one must render manasi-seva following the vrajavasis such as Sri Rupa Manjari and others. The meaning of the above verse has been given in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta in this way.

 

bahya, antara — ihara dui ta’ sadhana

‘bahye’ sadhaka-dehe kare sravana-kirtana

‘mane’ nija-siddha-deha kariya bhavana

ratri-dine kare vraje krsnera sevana

(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya, 22.156-157)

 

“This raganuga bhakti is performed in two ways: externally and internally.

Externally, in the sadhaka body, the devotee engages in hearing and chanting. In his mind, in his internally conceived, perfected‚ spiritual body he serves Krsna in Vraja day and night.”

 

Thus raganuga-bhakti sadhakas should in all respects practice bhava-sambandhi sadhana such as sravana, kirtana, service to tulasi, wearing tilaka, observing vows beginning with Sri Ekadasi and Janmastami and so on, for all these activities nourish one’s own desired bhava. Simultaneously one must also render service to Radha-Krsna in Vraja, meditating on one’s siddha-deha in the heart. The body of a gopi which is suitable for rendering service to Radha-Govinda is called siddhadeha. When the bhajana is complete, the jiva gives up the inert material body, and attains the body of a gopi corresponding to its eternal intrinsic form.

 

Srila Narottama Thakura has said‚

 

sadhane bhabiba jaha siddha-dehe paba taha

raga pathera ei se upaya

(Sri Prema Bhakti-candrika 5.8)

 

“Whatever subject is constantly meditated upon at the time of performing

sadhana, that same subject is the prominent meditation at the time of death and it engrosses the citta (heart).”

 

One’s destination at the time of death will exactly correspond to the subject one remembers at that time. Rajarsi Bharata attained the body of a deer at the time of death, so what doubt is there about attaining the body suitable for rendering to the Divine Couple the service on which one constantly reflected in one’s internally conceived siddha-deha?

 

In relation to the siddha-deha it has been said in the Sanat-Kumara Samhita,

 

atmanam cintayet tatra tasam madhye manoramam

rupayauvanasampannam kisorim premodaakrtim

radhikanuncari nityam tat sevana parayanam

krsnad apy adhikam prema radhikayam prakurvatim

 

Sadasiva is giving instruction to Naradaji on the subject of siddha-deha suitable for rendering service to the Divine Couple. “O Narada! Meditate in this way upon your own svarupa among Sri Krsna's beloved associates who take pride in being His paramours in the aprakrta Vrndavana Dhama. ‘I am an extremely lovely and supremely blissful kisori (adolescent girl), endowed with youthful beauty. I am an eternal maidservant of Srimati Radhika. Having arranged for Sri Krsna’s dearmost mistress Srimati Radhika to meet with Him, I will always make them both happy. Therefore I am the maidservant of Radhika, the most beloved of Krsna. Remaining always and forever engaged in the service of the Divine Couple‚ may I maintain more love for Srimati than for Krsna.’”

 

Now we should note that the descriptions of siddha-deha that sastra and the

mahajanas have given are for sadhakas of a particular level. Wherever siddha-deha has been mentioned it has been shown in the context of raganuga-bhakti. Specifically such instructions are intended for those very fortunate sadhakas in whose hearts lobha, a genuine greed to attain ragatmika-bhakti, has already arisen due to samskaras (impressions) from this life and previous lives.

 

Here is a further matter which is worthy of consideration. It is one thing to

understand the excellence of some particular rasa by the discrimination given in sastra. It is another thing altogether to have lobha for that rasa. When someone has lobha in a particular rasa, then the symptoms of lobha will also be evident in that sadhaka. When lobha arises, raganuga-bhakti sadhana begins from the stage of ruci. It will be understood from this that the namaparadha, sevaparadha and various other anarthas of a sadhaka have, for the most part, already gone far away. He has already controlled the six urges mentioned by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Sri Upadesamrta (Verse 1); he is virtually free from the six faults (Verse 2); he is endowed with the six qualities beginning with utsahan niscayat (enthusiasm and confidence) (Verse 3); having recognized the three types of Vaisnavas, he is expert in behaving appropriately with them (Verse 5); and he has also become established in the purport of the verse beginning tan nama rupa caritadi (Verse 8).

 

In other words he conducts himself according to this verse. In this stage the sadhaka goes on performing bhajana, and when he crosses the stage of ruci and enters the stage of asakti then a semblance of the symptoms related by Sri Rupa Gosvami in the verse ksantir-avyartha-kalatvam will be observed in him. In the stage of asakti, a semblance (abhasa) of the rati which arises in the stage of bhava will appear, and in order to make that rati manifest

fully, the sadhaka will perform bhajana meditating on his siddha-deha. When this ratyabhasa transforms into rati by the practice of bhajana, then the sadhaka attains factual experience of his own svarupa. This is called meditation on siddha-deha, or the acceptance of vaisnava-bheka. One who is endowed with simplicity and who has lobha for this is worshipful for the whole world.

 

There are two types of acceptance of bheka. A sadhaka may receive bheka from some suitable guru; alternatively, when genuine vairagya arises as mentioned previously, he may accept bheka from himself. Haridasa Thakura, the Six Gosvamis, Lokanatha Gosvami and others are examples of the practice of accepting bheka from oneself. This is also the way that Srila Bhakti-siddhanta Sarasvati Thakura accepted sannyasa vesa after the disappearance of Srila Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji from whom he had received diksa-mantra. We see from these examples that acceptance of bheka in this way is fully in agreement with sastra. Sri Ramanuja Acarya also accepted tridandi-sannyasa from himself after the disappearance of his guru Srila Yamuna Acarya.

 

In any case, the meditation on one’s siddha-deha depends on the mercy of one’s guru. The guru or siksa-guru who is established in rasa-vicara and who is a svarupa-siddha will indicate the details of the sadhaka’s perfected form.

Otherwise, if the sadhaka changes the order of the sequence described above, he cannot attain perfection. On the contrary, his bhakti may become completely ruined and the conceptions of the sampradaya will also become corrupted. We see this going everywhere nowadays.

 

Some ignorant people say that there is no siddha-pranali in the Gaudiya Matha. This vicious propaganda is erroneous in all respects. In the authentic literature written by Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami entitled Sat-kriya-sara-dipika and Samskara-dipika, which is a supplement to Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa, there is an account of the tridandi-sannyasa samskara. The original manuscript handwritten by Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami is protected even today in the Royal Library of Jaipur. An old copy of this same literature is also kept to this day by the Gosvamis of Sri Radha-Ramana. Therefore this literature is authoritative evidence. According to Samskara-dipika, tridandi-sannyasa vesa is given among Gaudiyas. In this sannyasa samskara, dor-kaupina, bahir-vasa and the sannyasamantra for taking shelter of gopi-bhava are also given. The eka-dasa-bhava (eleven aspects of gopi-bhava), namely sambandha, vayah, nama, rupa, yutha, vesa, ajna, vasa, seva, parakasta-svasa and palya-dasi-bhava, are contained within this gopibhava.

 

The identity of the siddha-deha is determined by the instructions of Sri

Guru in accordance with the ruci of the sadhaka. One’s own nama, rupa, vayasa,vesa, sambandha, yutha, ajna, vasa, parakasta-svasa and palya-dasi bhava given by guru is called siddha-pranali. As the sadhaka goes on performing this type of sadhana, the perfection of his svarupa takes place along with the attainment of suddha-rati in his heart.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has described his siddha-svarupa in this way.

 

varane tadit vasa taravali

kamala manjari nama

sade bara varsa vayasa satata

svananda sukhada dhama

karpura seva lalitara gana

radha yuthesvari hana

mamesvari-natha sri Nanda-nandana

amara parana dhana

sri rupa manjari prabhrtira sama

yugala sevaya asa

avasya se-rupa seva paba ami

parakastha suvisvasa

kabe ba e dasi samsiddhi labhibe

radha-kunde vasa kari’

radha-krsna seva satata karibe

purva smrti parihari’

 

“My complexion is like a flash of lightning and my dress is bedecked with

twinkling stars. My name is Kamala Manjari and I am eternally twelve-and-ahalfyears old. My abode is Svananda Sukhada Kunja. My service is to supply

camphor to Sri Yugala. I serve in the gana of Lalita and Sri Radha is my

yuthesvari. The Beloved of my Svamini, the son of Nanda Maharaja, is the

treasure of my life. I aspire to serve Sri Yugala like Rupa Manjari and others, andI am confident that I will surely attain this service. This is my highest aspiration.Oh, when will this maidservant attain complete perfection and, residing at SriRadha-kunda, serve Sri Radha-Krsna in complete forgetfulness of my past?”In conclusion, whatever custom of accepting bheka is seen among babajis is not a fifth asrama, rather it is a second form of the fourth asrama, namely the sannyasa asrama.

[Kripamoya]

Question:

 

If it's ok to post the "siddhasvarup" of Bhaktivinoda on the internet in front of the whole world, then what would be wrong with posting the "siddhasvarup" of Narayana Maharaja?

 

Why is it ok to post the ekadasa bhava of a deceased Vaishnava, but not OK to post the same of a "living" guru?

[Guest guest]

 

Unlike the modern voyeurs of today, Sridhar Maharaja was not a PEEPING TOM to intrude into the most elevated descriptions of Ujjvala-nilamani.

Kshamabuddhi here expresses something that troubled me as well for a long time. I understood this a little better after studying the books of Rupa Goswami in depth. Before saying anything, though, I would like to point out to Kshamabuddhi and those who sympathize with his ideas in general, that the Gaudiya Math is in a fundamental quandary when it comes to subjects like this, because, as we have already established, the ultimate goals of the Gaudiya Math are NOT different from those of the Babajis. At least, not if they claim to be followers of Rupa and Raghunath. What we have here is a debate over what it means to follow Rupa and Raghunath, that is all. So there may be quibbles between Babajis and GM about sambandha and prayojana, but their real problem is in relation to abhidheya. What Kshamabuddhi has expressed here is a problem with the prayojana.

 

I hope I am keeping within the reasonable bounds of Sanskrit terminology use.

 

As to the prayojana and manjari bhava, anyone who has read _Manjari-svarupa-nirupana_ will know that it is frequently stated that the manjaris have entry into the most intimate pastimes of Srimati Radha and Krishna. They are always peeking into Radha and Krishna's most intimate pastimes through the vines and the windows of the kunja kutira.

 

<center><i>vidyud ghanAcikramiSAM yadopari

smArAd dadhAnA vavale'valepataH |

tadA tu jAlAni sakhI dRzAM balAj

jAlAvalIM harSa-jalaiH plutAM vyadhuH ||</i></center>

<b><blockquote>Ah what a wonder! The Divine Couple, caught up in their erotic amusements have now been so overcome with their ecstatic lovemaking that they have reversed their positions. Like a bolt of lightning desiring to attack the cloud, the beloved, possessed by the hubris of the god of love, shows her lover her power. Seeing this, the manjaris, spectators peeking through the windows of the forest cottage drenched the sills with their tears. (Krishna-bhavanamrita 20.45)</b></blockquote>In this verse by Raghunath Das from the Vraja-vilasa-stava (38), such a privilege is the reward the manjaris receive for their intimate service and is their defining characteristic and distinction from the sakhis:

 

<center><i>tAmbUlArpaNa-pAda-mardana-payo-dAnAdibhisArAdibhir

vRndAraNya-mahezvarIM priyatayA yAs toSayanti priyAH |

prANa-preSTha-sakhI-kulAd api kilAsaGkocitA bhUmikAH

kelI-bhUmiSu rUpa-maJjarI-mukhAs tA dAsikAH saMzraye ||</i></center>

<b><blockquote>I take shelter of the handmaidens of the Queen of Vrindavan,

led by Sri Rupa Manjari,

who by lovingly satisfying her,

by offering betelnut and other condiments,

massaging her feet, bringing fragrant water,

and arranging for trysts with her gallant,

have thus become most dear to her.

 

They are thus allowed permission to enter the scene

of the Divine Couple’s most intimate affairs

without the slightest discomfiture,

a reward not given even to her dearest friends.</b></blockquote>So the prayojana as expressed in these verses, the reward that the manjaris get for their intimate service to Srimati Radharani, is the permission to watch—to be peeping Toms.

 

<center><i>pAdAbjayos tava vinA vara-dAsyam eva

nAnyat kadApi samaye kila devi yAce |

sakhyAya te mama namo’stu namo’stu nityaM

dAsyAya te mama raso’stu raso’stu satyam || </i></center>

<b><blockquote>O Goddess! I pray for nothing from you at any time other than single-minded service to your lotus feet. If you should say, “Become my friend, my equal,” then my answer is, “I offer eternal obeisances to such friendship. I bow down to it, but in truth I pray that my taste for being your hand-maid should ever increase, yes, increase forever. This is my prayer, and this is my vow. (Vilapa-kusumanjali 16.) </b></blockquote> When Raghunath prays to be a dasi, it is because he wants to be an observer (of Radha and Krishna's union) and not a participant. But how can this possibly be? It does not make any sense.

 

Now Kshamabuddhi Prabhu has expressed reservations a thousand times about manjari bhava, saying that for a he-man like himself manjari bhava is not a very attractive option. That's fine. He is not really attracted and it embarrasses him a bit that his he-man sampradaya, the vira-rasa spirited Gaudiya Math, has such effeminate goals. In the past, he has pointed to alternatives like sakhya-rasa or dasya-rasa which he feels are more in tune with his sentiments. Surely we don't all have to be manjaris?

 

The world's religions present a wide selection of frameworks through which we can find meaning and express our spirituality. God takes on different forms in response to the attitude of the worshiper. As Mahaprabhu says, "You have made yourself available through so many different names." There is no need to feel obliged to follow any one mood over another. But since Rupa and Raghunath have given a special honor to the manjari bhava, and certain amongst us have adopted their spirit as our own, we feel it necessary to at least attempt to gauge its depths and to measure its breadth.

 

My approach in general to questions of this sort is to assume the best. There has to be a good and meaningful explanation. In fact, when this question arose in my mind, it was accompanied by major changes in my life and made me intensify my studies of all aspects of religion as well as Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Now the general GM response to such doubts is to ascribe them to premature engagement in lila smarana and siddha-pranali, etc. This to me is a copout. The Gaudiya Vaishnava ideal is the love of Radha and Krishna. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself appeared in order to establish the glories of Srimati Radharani in this world. Manjari bhava is the highest ideal of Rupa and Raghunath. To accept Rupa and Raghunath without facing the "manjari bhava problem" head on is a copout. In other words, we cannot shift the problem of the prayojana into questions of abhidheya, which is what we do when we say, "One day you will understand." Yes, one day you will understand, but not by avoiding the question. Through a combination of sravana (study), manana (reflection), nididhyasana (constant and profound meditation), and Guru Kripa, you will understand.

 

We have to face these questions head on and attempt to the best of our ability to explain these tattvas, and we have to do so in a spirit of respect for the discoveries of modern thought. If modern thought has been persuasive enough to convince the vast majority of persons in today's world, we must be respectful of its power and its reasonableness. We cannot toss it off with an exercise in name-calling: "Atheists, impersonalists," etc.

 

We have our philosophical explanations of what is means to be a manjari, but how would it look to a Freudian psychologist, for example? Who cares, I hear you say, what a Freudian psychologist thinks? Well, since Freudian psychology stands in the grand tradition of materialist criticism of religion, it represents a body of argument against religious beliefs that has been very influential and successful in reducing the power of religion in today's world. It is all very well to close one's eyes and say "atheistic materialist," but that does not deal with their arguments.

 

Kshamabuddhi's problem could be expressed in the language of Freudian psychology, which as you all no doubt know, says that the idea of God in general is a projection of subconscious contents and represents (principally) a father figure. Mythology, like dreams, is the expression of supressed desire, or "displaced wish fulfilment." Freudians such as Morris Carstairs and Sudhir Kakar find little that is psychologically healthy in the extreme manifestation of bhakti where men strive to adopt a female identity. Complete rejection of the world, sublimation of one’s own masculinity to take on the identity of a 12-year-old manjari in Krishna lila, all smack of inversion and self-castration.

 

Freud held that God and the Devil were collective projections of man’s ambivalence toward his father. G. Morris Carstairs, in a study of upper class Rajasthani Hindus, understood Krishna, through his identification as God, to be such a father figure, but one who is an effeminate, seductive and yet divinely powerful youth. Carstairs feels that Krishna devotees can be "recognized as [having] a thinly veiled longing for [the father] as a homosexual lover." He then goes on to find causes for this in the typical upbringing of a brahmin male child.

 

Psychological maturity for such psychologists, as it was for so many in the 19th and 20th centuries, requires throwing off the shackles of belief in and dependence on God. These ideas were so influential that many liberal Christians, most notably Bonhoeffer, came to the conclusion that mature Christianity means throwing off the mythological approach to the Divine and the accompanying childish dependence on God. They would "inherit" God's kingdom by acting as responsible adults. Like the Zen saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him" they thought "freedom from God" was an aspect of salvation.

 

Little wonder, then, that we find ourselves on the defensive, when we are living in a world where even religion has taken this strong "this-worldly" stance, where God as protector and provider has been rendered practically superfluous by a doctrine of self-reliance and the self-confident advance of technological know-how, where God as an explanation of phenomena has been practically replaced by ever-increasing scientific knowledge, and where religion as story has been replaced by the mythology machines of Hollywood and Bollywood. The expression "God of the gaps" was coined by a Christian theologian to describe the retreat of God in the daily life of modern, secular society, in which more and more, "God is irrelevant for that hypothesis."

 

The fact that such ideas are pervasive was proven to me recently when my university-educated daughter, who was born and raised in Krishna consciousness, but is now a Unitarian Universalist (as far as religious identification is concerned), recently burst out with a comment on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's "homo-erotic fantasies." This also shows, to me, that the ability of Krishna conscious intellectuals to combat such ideas has been well short of effective.

 

Furthermore, those intellectuals who have tried to find some scientific value in Krishna consciousness have done little profound combat in this field, which is ultimately the most important of all, because it is the expression of Rupa and Raghunath's, our principal acharyas', deepest concerns. Mostly they tend to follow the dry and unproductive path of the conservative Christians in trying to disprove Darwin or to prove the Vedic cosmology, the universal reach of Vedic culture, or the positive effects of chanting in relieving stress. Others try to adapt the teachings of the Gita to the popular self-help movement ("Seven teachings from the Gita that will make you a more effective human being." Hasn't been done yet? Could be a money-maker. Should do it. Make a note.) Anyway, I don't see anyone taking on Western philosophy where it really hurts.

 

Kundali's <i>Our Mission</i> series is an interesting case. Kundali tries to adapt Prabhupada's teachings to Erich Fromm's humanistic psychology. But how distant is that version of Krishna consciousness from the ecstatic visions of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! Would Mahaprabhu have been a "mature human being" by the standards of Erich Fromm? It is not surprising that Kundali so strongly condemns esoteric meditations as being a distraction: He approving quotes, "Work now, samadhi later!" Kundali's indictment of Iskcon's failures due to various kinds of immature behavior could be seen as an indictment of Krishna consciousness itself, nay of all religion. Little wonder that he was branded a heretic and pushed out of Iskcon and his books banned. But Iskcon and the Gaudiya Math feed the mythological world view while remaining ambivalent about the Rasa lila, which is in fact our central and most important myth, the one that should be retained even if everything else were to be lost.

 

And this is precisely the clue to the power and importance of mythology--it can be revolutionary. (The important phrase in the tad vAg-visargo verse is janatAgha-viplavo.) And in the case of the Rasa-lila, that is exactly what it is, even though we may have to translate it into modern language in order to understand.

 

In view of my audience, I should perhaps explain why I use the term "myth." Western intellectuals, particularly those who study religion, do not use the word to mean "falsity." The definition of myth that states "it is something that never happened, but is always true" (I believe this comes from Joseph Campbell) helps us to circumvent the uncomfortable obligation of proving that our myths are historically true. Periodically, some Christian archeologists come up with new research that "proves" the truth of the resurrection or some other aspect of the Biblical stories. Christianity is largely committed to the historical truth of Christ and largely embarrassed by those liberal theologians who tell them that Christ's historicity is irrelevant. The story of Christ, independent of his teachings, is a grand myth. All human beings are mythopoeic in nature: they cannot take life "as it is," unmediated by a story-line that has a beginning, middle and end (sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana). Without a story, life has no meaning. Most of us, being self-absorbed, operate on a micro-mythological level. This is why we can dispense with literal belief in the grand cosmological myths. A successful life is one that takes on mythical proportions, that fits in with the grand archetypes. A failed life is one that has no theme, no sambandha, no abhidheya, no prayojana. No purpose, no heroic struggle, and no ultimate glory, not even in defeat.

 

All religions are based on some grand myth, peopled by archetypes and profound symbols. It is the meaning that is mediated by these things that gives a religion its force. The meaning is always true, even if historically the events never happened. Christ, the son of God, the second aspect of the Trinity, took human form, died in act of cosmic self-sacrifice and rose from the dead in order to show that all humanity could be freed from death—all these elements of the myth have huge soteriological (liberating) power. And herein lies the task—how can we "prove" that myth has liberating power? Even if we feel that it does, what are its mechanics? These are some of the questions that Srila Rupa Goswami has faced in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and it is with Rupa Goswami's help that we will try to answer them.

 

I have briefly fleshed out the problem that Kshamabuddhi has expressed. By having stated the problem, I have set out the task, for I consider myself in every way to be fully a disciple of my gurus. As a sharanagata, I feel that it has been given to me as my mission to find a persuasive meaning in all aspects of Krishna consciousness. As you can see, I am going about it at some length here because, as someone said to me not so long ago, "Either shit or get out of the outhouse."

 

+++++++

 

(to be continued)

[Kripamoya]

 

"Either shit or get out of the outhouse."

 

I have to hand it to you Jagat, you pinched off a big loaf this time!

[Guest guest]

 

Question:

 

If it's ok to post the "siddhasvarup" of Bhaktivinoda on the internet in front of the whole world, then what would be wrong with posting the "siddhasvarup" of Narayana Maharaja?

 

Why is it ok to post the ekadasa bhava of a deceased Vaishnava, but not OK to post the same of a "living" guru?

 

The description of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakuras svarupa came from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself. Why should we hesitate to mention anything he said or wrote? Interestingly enough, though he also wrote in ch. 12 of jaiva Dharma:

 

". . . Human nature is such that when one develops faith in a particular subject, he will naturally feel regard for the teachers of that subject. Moreover, for various reasons, common people do not easily develop faith in exalted personalities who are still living, whereas they tend to develop great faith in the activities of mahajanas who have passed away. . . . "

[Kripamoya]

 

The description of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakuras svarupa came from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself. Why should we hesitate to mention anything he said or wrote? Interestingly enough, though he also wrote in ch. 12 of jaiva Dharma:

 

". . . Human nature is such that when one develops faith in a particular subject, he will naturally feel regard for the teachers of that subject. Moreover, for various reasons, common people do not easily develop faith in exalted personalities who are still living, whereas they tend to develop great faith in the activities of mahajanas who have passed away. . . . "

 

then when a devotee has learned Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam, Caitanya Caritamrita and gets too old to preach, then he can set down and go over the books of Bhaktivinode and read these things in the proper place, in context and suitable atmosphere.

 

I don't see that it is something to be dragged out onto the streets of internet forums and showm publicly like a billboard on the roadside.

 

Thats the whole argument that we are trying to make.

 

There is a time and a place for such things, but in public places around bystanders is NOT the place.

 

It should be received in and through the book of Bhaktivinoda - not on the internet in the midst of a debate.

[Guest guest]

Clearly, I disagree with the above post. If this is our ultimate value, then why are we being coy? That is, in a nutshell, what I stated in the lengthy post above.

[Kripamoya]

 

Clearly, I disagree with the above post. If this is our ultimate value, then why are we being coy? That is, in a nutshell, what I stated in the lengthy post above.

 

Nutshells and nuts are always found together.

 

anyway, I debate and argue with you Jagat, but I don't dislike you.

 

If I saw you personally I would laugh and joke and call you a sahajiya, but I would never want to do you harm and I would offer you all courtesy as a human being.