More on Gaurava

[theist]

 

Are you not placing certain restrictions on what Krishna can or cannot do? Even if what he does is place restrictions on himself--such as his omnipotence or omniscience?

 

Thanks for this Jagat. Exactly what I was trying to raise only in a more concise intelligible form.

 

We cannot limited God to the post of God. Even an earthly king is allowed to "lose himself" as king while in play with his grandchilren.

[shiva]

Well Jagat you can have your interpretations of the sastra. I have shown pramana showing that Cit Sakti and Radha and Her expansions are called identical to Krishna, not one and different. And you will not find anywhere in gaudiya teachings where the jiva is called anything but bhedabheda. You can make your assertion about these concepts being worded so as to contrast with mayavada philosophy, I reject that as pure speculation. As for metaphor and lila and your complaint that too much metaphor makes it meaningless I simply disagree. It is my own experience that the rasa sastra serves 2 purposes. The first is for those who only have entrance into the extoeric meaning and the second is for those who have entrance into the esoteric meaning. For the former the rasa sastra serves as an incentive to want to take part in Krishna lila thereby inspiring them to take to the process which will attain them their goal.

 

From KRSNA book

 

 

Some ask that if Krsna is self-sufficient, why should He at all manifest pastimes with the gopis, which are disturbing to the so-called moralists of the world? The answer is that such activities show special mercy to the fallen, conditioned souls. The gopis are also expansions of His internal energy, but because Krsna wanted to exhibit the rasa-lila, they also appeared as ordinary human beings. In the material world, pleasure is ultimately manifested in the sex attraction between man and woman. The man lives simply to be attracted by women, and the woman lives simply to be attracted by men. That is the basic principle of material life. As soon as these attractions are combined, people become more and more implicated in material existence. In order to show them special favor, Krsna exhibited this rasa-lila dance. It is just to captivate the conditioned soul. Since they are very much attracted by sexology, they can enjoy the same life with Krsna and thus become liberated from the material condition. In the Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Maharaja Pariksit also explains that the pastimes and activities of Lord Krsna are medicine for the conditioned souls. If they simply hear about Krsna they become relieved from the material disease. They are addicted to material enjoyment and are accustomed to reading sex literature, but by hearing these transcendental pastimes of Krsna with the gopis, they will be relieved from material contamination.

 

For the latter the descriptions of the rasa in Vraja contain a message only they can see.

 

As for the speculations that Krishna can somehow fool Himself into not knowing He is God, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[shiva]

 

We cannot limited God to the post of God. Even an earthly king is allowed to "lose himself" as king while in play with his grandchilren.

 

That's exactly what I have said many times. Krishna doesn't forget He is God just like the king doesn't forget he is the king. This is what I have written previously on this:

 

 

For example; if I was the president of the U.S.A, I would control vast armies and military might, other leaders would tremble before me, hoping I would not be angry with them, My military could devastate any other nation without a sweat if so desired.

 

Yet at home I put that all aside, I let my wife chastise me for leaving my socks on the floor, I allow my 5 year old child to ride on my back and boss me around, I allow myself to leave my factual identity as ruler of the world out of my life at home. At home I come under the spell of the home life. I am not the ruler, rather I am the provider and servant. I enjoy my family bossing me around, out of their love and mine.

 

Does this mean I factually forget everything else in my life? No, my "forgetting" of my role as ruler of the world is not real forgetfulness. Rather it is a self conception that is not important and therefore set aside. But I do not actually forget who I am.

 

Do I leave my job as President when I am home? No, I am still President, still rule the world, there is not a shadow president who takes over when I am with my family. I am president day and night, 24/7.

 

This is exactly what is meant by Krishna taking shelter of Yoga Maya. He can never forget that He is God, He is factually doing the work of maintaining everything and everyone in existence. His Yoga Maya and Maha Maya energy is not a separate conscious entity from Himself.

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

 

What does this verse tell us ?

[theist]

Shiva, sorry my point is different then how you read it. I am saying the King does forget his life as the king while in play with his grandchildren.

 

The difference is the king's duties will encroach upon him and force him to break that enchanting state in a short amount of time.

 

Krsna's enchanted play in Vraja requires no such breakage.The time factor has no influence on Him. He is eternally engaged there and He is eternally engaged as God elsewhere.

 

I think you are attempting to place a limitation on Krsna that does not exist.

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva, sorry my point is different then how you read it. I am saying the King does forget his life as the king while in play with his grandchildren.

 

The difference is the king's duties will encroach upon him and force him to break that enchanting state in a short amount of time.

 

Krsna's enchanted play in Vraja requires no such breakage.The time factor has no influence on Him. He is eternally engaged there and He is eternally engaged as God elsewhere.

 

I think you are attempting to place a limitation on Krsna that does not exist.

 

The meaning of Krishna’s existence is to taste rasa, raso vai saha. Therefore He pervades everything. The analogy is of a cow or calf made of sugar. This calf or cow has features, but every part of it is made of condensed sugar. As far as purpose, there is no duality in Sri Krsna - in any of His qualities or limbs, or in any of the variety that He shows in his transcendental features, He is one truth – raso vai saha.

[theist]

Are you then saying that there is no difference or variety in tastes in Krsna's different lila's? I don't quite understand.

[Guest guest]

Dear Admin, Please send my password to my account. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

The Vedanta has its concerns. Debates tend to follow different kinds of structures. Different religions tend to have different concerns. Does the debate we are currently have a place in Christianity, for instance?

 

The Upanishads are the source of the Vedanta debates. They have framed its language, so whenever new ideas came into being, they had to be fit into that framework to find legitimacy. Indeed, you could say that both you and I have new ideas and are trying to fit them into the Vedanta framework.

 

The Upanishads frequently refer to the Absolute as apta-kama, atmarama, etc. These words also appear in the Bhagavatam, especially in the rasa lila chapters. The doctrine of shakti being identical with the shaktiman has the principal function of preserving the genuine character of these historic revelations. And, such terms are applicable to all God's shaktis, including the jiva. God's joy from the jiva could not come if the jiva were separate from Krishna's atma. And yet, unlike the Mayavadis, we are adamant that the jiva is an independent conscious entity.

 

The very nature of diversity or variegatedness within the Supreme must be able to carry over into the realm of consciousness and identity. This is certainly inconceivable, but unless we accept that Radha and Krishna believe they are distinct and think of themselves as distinct, in all their infinite manifestations, there is no meaning to rasa, ananda or prema. This is not polytheism in a crude sense, but a polymorphism of the Deity, which makes possible his joy.

 

If you hold that the lila is a simulacrum meant to serve only as a model for life in this world, or that Radha and Krishna themselves are only meant to serve as models for our relationship with the Supreme, then you are engaged in ardha-kukkuti-nyaya thinking.

 

It is, as I have already said, an important step in understanding how mythology functions, but nevertheless is still a jiva-centered view of God. We are jivas, and so that is perfectly natural. And the wonderful thing about God is that he gives himself fully to every jiva. Even so, the relationship with the internal potency is the global experience of God in his joy that every jiva is seeking to merge into.

 

By way of analogy, think of Guru Tattva. We are told that the guru is both vishaya and ashraya. The Guru is a jiva, a servant, and yet he is Krishna himself. How can we understand the contradiction here? The Guru as an individual functions as an individual. To the disciple, however, he functions as a representative of the internal potency. As the internal potency, the Guru is God, non-different, etc., etc. Nevertheless, "kintu prabhor ya priya eva tasya."

 

The guru's status as a part of the internal potency means that he is endowed with certain powers, the basic one being that he can be guru to many disciples at once (<i>janme janme prabhu sei</i>), experiencing deep personal relationships with numerous individuals without his individuality or his personal relationship with Krishna, his associates and his dhama being compromised.

 

The jiva is tatastha <u>shakti</u>. He is either under the influence of the external potency or under the influence of the internal. Once within the internal potency, he does not lose his individuality. He ceases, strictly speaking, to be tatastha at that point and becomes a functioning, yet independently conscious element of the internal potency. This is why manjari bhava is deemed desirable, because it is direct recognition of this most fundamental ontological relationship.

 

Are we going around in circles now? I think so.

[Admin]

For Jagat: A password reminder was sent to your account, but puts most of the emails in the bulk folder. So please check your bulk folder for the email.

[shiva]

Jagat we're just going to have to agree to disagree over these things. Although I find pretty much everything in your last post post to be purely speculative on your part and wrong, one thing you said though I find to be quite unusual.

 

 

The jiva is tatastha shakti. He is either under the influence of the external potency or under the influence of the internal. Once within the internal potency, he does not lose his individuality. He ceases, strictly speaking, to be tatastha at that point and becomes a functioning, yet independently conscious element of the internal potency. This is why manjari bhava is deemed desirable, because it is direct recognition of this most fundamental ontological relationship.

 

The jiva is always a part of the cit sakti as atomic cit but never fully the same as the cit sakti. Like a fire and a spark of that fire, or the sun and the rays of light from the sun. Tatastha sakti means that the jiva is between the Cit Sakti and the Maya Sakti because the jiva can come under the influence of either. This means the jiva can live under the auspices of yogamaya or mahamaya. Although the jiva is said to be a part of the cit sakti it is always different then cit sakti-bhedabheda, as atomic cit. The jiva will never be the same as Radha and Her expansions who are the fire or the sun and not the spark or the ray.

 

In Krsna Sandarbha Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of The Supreme Lord:

 

 

This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

 

The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (jiva). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.

 

The question is; why do you say:

 

 

This is why manjari bhava is deemed desirable, because it is direct recognition of this most fundamental ontological relationship.

 

All jivas in whatever bhava they relate to Radha Krishna, in vaikuntha or goloka, are under the auspices of the cit sakti. You only desire manjari bhava because you think it is the highest possible level of attainment for you.

[Guest guest]

vizeSasya viziSTAsyApy abhedas tadvad eva tu

sarvaM cAcintya-zaktitvAd yujyate paramezvare

tac-chaktyaiva tu jIveSu cid-rUpa-prakRtAv api

bhedAbhedau tad anyatra hy ubhayor api darzanAt

 

The attribute (vizeSa) and the one possessing the attribute (viziSTa) are always non different. All things are possible in the Supreme Lord due to his inconceivable potencies. Similarly, the simultaneous oneness and difference of the Lord from both the jivas and the spiritual nature (cid-rUpa-prakRti) are also possible by the same inconceivable potency. (Madhva to Srimad Bhagavatam 11.7.51, Brahma-tarka)

[theist]

 

And to help us deepen our understanding of the nitya-lila. There is a relationship between the metaphorical and the lila, as pratibimba and bimba.

 

I was suspicious that your concept would lead to an emphasis on the metaphorical to the exclusion of the lila. In a God-centered system, the metaphor has to be looked at as a door into the lila, and not vice versa. Sure, the metaphorical aspect of the lila makes it possible to understand its meaning, but an overemphasis on metaphor makes the symbol system itself ultimately superfluous. Like the car you can leave in the garage when you have arrived at your destination.

 

Achintya-bhedabheda means accepting that this world is real. Since it is a reflection of the spiritual world, the visions of the sages in understanding that world are helpful in spiritualizing our vison of this one.

 

I personally don't laugh manjari bhava off, but try to understand it in this way--as a sadhana that transforms our experience of this world, as well as a doorway into the highest realms of the transcendental abode. - Jagat

 

Very nicely stated. How could a conditioned mind hold anything more than metaphorical idea of the nature of the Absolute?

[Guest guest]

 

Are you then saying that there is no difference or variety in tastes in Krsna's different lila's? I don't quite understand.

 

Yes there is difference, how would it be rasa then if uniform? Variety is the main constituent of rasa.

Krsna is never alone. When the argument is that He is atmarama, self satisfied, the answer is that this satisfaction is in the prospect of meeting.

The highest satisfaction then is Krsna's longing for the feelings of Radha. Radha and Krsna only become One in Gauranga Mahaprabhu. Otherwise they are always Two.

....................................................

The following material may be of help:

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

THE BEAUTY OF SRIMATI RADHIKA /

THE NATURE OF THE JIVA

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

April 29, 1999 - Morning, Caracas, Venuzuela

 

Do you know what is the meaning of:

 

 

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hrdaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

 

Prahlada Maharaja told 'sravanam kirtanam.' But even this is not bhakti rasa. Only for this [bhakti rasa] Caitanya Mahaprabhu came. But nowadays we are not qualified. We are preaching same, and practicing same as Madhvacarya, Ramanuja, but even it is not that thing. Only don't do this, don't do this. Not automatically doing. Oh, like money collecting, distributing books, but not taking the essence of the books, what is given. Otherwise, if you had taken essence of the books you would not have been fallen. [Maharaja addresses a senior devotee who had fallen down]

 

So 'anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau,' Caitanya Mahaprabhu descended in this world.

 

'Harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah.' Hari is Himself Krsna. He took the intrinsic mood of Radhika and golden color of Radhika and He came in the shape of Caitanya Mahaprabhu Sacinandana, because Saci [devi] is so, so, so merciful, compassionate. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu must be merciful and compassionate [because He is the son of Mother Saci]. That what He has in His heart, fully He must give everything. Because mother gives everything, her heart comes in the shape of milk. If no son, no milk. Mother can give her life also for son. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give everything. [Hindi]

 

Naveen Krishna Prabhu: He donates everything which he has.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He cannot keep anything for His own. He's so merciful. You know in India, there are so many [charitable persons], like Bali Maharaja. He gave all what he wanted, but he could not give, could not give. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give everything, all these things. So pray to Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All give bhakti, up to bhakti, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu [gives] bhakti-rasa.

 

'Anarpita-carim cirat karunaya,' out of mercy He descended to give intrinsic mood. What was that? Sva-bhakti. The bhakti-sva. Sva meaning what was in Srimati Radhika. Radhika is sva of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sva means Radhika. So what bhakti was in Srimati Radhika? You know? Prema, sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, bhava, mahabhava. And mahabhava was also, the essence of mahabhava. Essence of mahabhava [is] rudha, adhiruòha, more than that, madana, mohana, ???? prajalpa and so many things. And more than that, everything in that, that is madana.

 

This is only the intrinsic mood of Srimati Radhika, by which Krsna is controlled. And Krsna tells that "I am Yours, I am so indebted to You. I cannot repay You." To anyone else He has not told this. So the mood of this is called unnatojjvala, parikiya bhava. Unnatojjvala parikiya bhava, which is never in Satyabhama, Rukmini, not in Dama, Sridama, Sudama, Subala, not in Yasoda and Nanda. Even it is not in other sides [groups] of gopis like Candravali, Padma, never. Also it is not in Lalita even, and Visakha, only in Srimati Radhika. This is the unnatojjvala-bhava of Srimati Radhika.

 

It cannot be given, it cannot be tasted by Krsna. Krsna can't taste it. Krsna is also deprived of this mahabhava, maha, madana, and mohana. He never knows what is this, because it is only in Srimati Radhika, not even in Krsna. What is in Lalita, Visakha, and all others, He has everything, but here He's beggar for this. He has never tasted.

 

Krsna is one rasa and aneka-rasa. Understand? Krsna is ekarasa. Ekarasa means He's the taster of all the rasas, santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya, hasta, karuna, adhibhuta rasa, all twelve rasas. He's the taster and He's the visaya. Visaya means the enjoyer. Being so He can taste all these thing, but He's also aneka-rasa. Aneka-rasa means? When He's ekarasa there is nothing . . .

 

Devotee: There is nothing balanced.

 

Pundarika Prabhu: Nothing remaining.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Nothing remaining, not anything, when He's ekarasa, then He's aptakama and atmarama. You know atmarama and aptakama? So He's atmarama and nothing is remaining there. But He's [also] aneka-rasa. Aneka meaning many rasas. He can taste all, it is okay. But He wants to taste other rasa also, like vatsalya-rasa from Nanda, Yasoda, sakhya-rasa from Sridam, Subal. And He wants to taste unnatojjvala-rasa from gopis, madhurya-rasa. So to taste madhurya-rasa and all others, ekarasa and aneka-rasa, He comes in the shape of Krsna. No? But He, in aneka-rasa, there is Srimati Radhika and gopis, parikiya mood that, Krsna never has known that what is that. So He has three desires that He wanted to complete [fulfill] in the shape of Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

 

sri-radhayah pranaya-mahima kidrso vanayaiva-

svadyo yenadbhuta-madhurima kidrso va madiyah

saukhyam casya mad-anubhavatah kidrsam veti lobhat

tad-bhavadhyah samajani saci-garbha-sindhau harinduh

(CC Adi 1.6)

 

"Desiring to understand the glory of Radharani's love, the wonderful qualities in Him that She alone relishes through Her love, and the happiness She feels when She realizes the sweetness of His love, the Supreme Lord Hari, richly endowed with Her emotions, appeared from the womb of Srimati Sacidevi, as the moon appeared from the ocean."

 

'Radhayah pranaya-mahima kidrso-[the greatness of the love of Srimati Radhika],' and other two [desires are] 'radhayah pranaya-mahima kidrso vanayaiva-svadyo yenadbhuta-madhurima.' Venu-madhuri, rupa-madhuri, lila-madhuri, guna-madhuri. Venu, rupa, guna, lila, these four madhuris, and especially the mood of Srimati Radhika He wanted. So that Radhika, how She tastes all these things of Mine, My venu, rupa and all others. And what kind of happiness She feels, I cannot understand.

 

So He came in this shape [of Gaurahari] and went to Puri, and from Puri He went to Godavari, and there Visakha was there. That was same like Srimati Radhika. And He was admitted in the school of Visakha. And He [Hindi] . . .

 

Brajanath Prabhu: Submitted so many questions.

 

Naveen Krishna Prabhu: He became his student.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: He offered Himself like a student, disciple, and then Visakha injected all the teachings, how You can taste all these things. And then He came to Puri, He returned, and in His Gambhira He tasted, otherwise He could not [have tasted].

 

So He's telling that the beauty of Radhika, intrinsic mood of Radhika, that is unnatojjvala-rasa. He took the beauty of these things. Beauty means like a creeper. Without leaves and flowers, [it is] nothing, like dry. But if there are so many, from top to bottom leaves, green leaves, and manjaris. Leaves can be around that tree, and creepers also, making round to tree [surrounding that tree], but manjaris never will touch tree. Oh, but they will do like this [Maharaja moves his hands in a beautiful swaying gesture] in air. So these are the beauty of these creepers. That is the mood of the gopis, Radhika's side, like manjaris, Rupa-manjari, Rati-manjari, Guna-manjari. Their mood to serve Srimati Radhika and conjugal is called the beauty of sva-bhakti. Parikiya-unnatojjvala-rasa. Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give this special thing [unnatojjvala-sva-bhakti-sriyam, the beauty of unnatojjvala-rasa]. He cannot give parikiya-bhava.

 

Naveen Krishna Prabhu: Unnatojjvala-rasa.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: [He cannot give] Radhika's unnatojjvala-rasa, but only the beauty, to serve the gopis, especially Radhika, in the mood of Rupa-manjari. A jiva may be qualified up to this, not more than that. So Caitanya. But this beauty's so high, that Radha and Krsna both are . . .

 

Brajanath Prabhu: Charmed.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: . . . will be charmed. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu came. We should try to realize all these things in this human shape. Krsna has given intelligence that we can. Caitanya Mahaprabhu came, Rupa Gosvami came, only to give these things. And those who follow Rupa Gosvami they are rupanuga. What follow? Not all these, what he wrote. He wrote santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, other, all things. And those who following them they are not rupanuga. Especially the mood which especially was of Rupa Gosvami, how he used to serve in the shape of Rupa-manjari, Radha and Krsna and in Vrndavana:

 

 

sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih kalavasani-krtau

nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau catyanta-dinau ca yau

radha-krsna-guna-smrter madhurimanandena sammohitau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

 

"I worship the Six Gosvamis, who passed all their time in chanting the holy names, doing nama sankirtana and dandavat-pranama, thereby humbly fulfilling their vow to do a fixed number daily. In this way they utilized their valuable lives and conquered over eating and sleeping. They were always meek and humble, enchanted by remembering Radha-Krsna's sweet qualities and absorbed in the highest bliss."

 

[Following Rupa Gosvami in the way he served Radha and Krsna] in this way, then he will be rupanuga. Not all the time. I think that they are not understanding. So translation should be given.

 

[Maharaja instructs one devotee to translate into Spanish]

 

Devotee: I will try.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Don't try. I will empower you.

[Maharaja tells Ramesh prabhu that he wants to give him sannyasa, and asks if he's ready, and asks his wife, Radha-sundari if he may take sannyasa. She replies that he may take. All the devotees laugh. Maharaja tells Ramesh prabhu not to fear.]

 

Once, after finishing Vraja mandala parikrama, Pujyapada Madhava Maharaja, Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, Pujyapada Puri Maharaja, who at that time was Paramananda Brahmacari. And all, so many, and senior brahmacaris, Madhusudana Maharaja. Bhakti Kamala, what name? Madhukamalandan. And so many gathered, assembled in our Kesavaji Gaudiya Matha.

About 25 leading disciples of Srila Prabhupada, and we were doing parikrama with about 500 devotees. So we were assembled in the same hall where Swami Maharaja was given sannyasa.

 

[Maharaja had difficulty expressing an idea, and the interaction he had with the devotees was hard to follow. The conception he was trying to convey is clarified in the following paragraphs.]

 

As you are associating with this [rasika-bhakta], what he has he can give, the same thing what he has. So the mood of associating with him, he can have the same rasa as him. But it has been written in Caitanya-caritamrta: "jivera 'svarupa' haya-krsnera 'nitya-dasa.'"

 

That this jiva soul is eternal servant of Krsna. If he's eternal servant, then he cannot be changed. Because it is intrinsic nature, what is nature cannot be changed. So that, if he's eternal servant, he should have his own name. His own nature, in what nature he's serving? That very mood. One can serve in only one mood. That if he's serving in dasya like Hanuman. Hanuman cannot change. When he's serving like Sita, he cannot change. If he's serving in mood of Yasodamaiya, he cannot change.

 

So the jivas, if the jivas are nitya dasa, eternal servant, all are serving. If he has a special kind of mood that cannot be changed. If jiva is eternal, his everything should be eternal, his name, his qualities, his nature, the color of his cloth, everything will be transcendental and eternal. So I cannot think what is in the, the established truth. Some written that according to association that mood comes. So what is truth I want to know. Please tell us if I'm qualified to hear. You should please tell me.

 

Then Jajavara Maharaja, one of the last disciples, sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada, who was so young in age. He became so happy. "Oh, the same question is mine."

 

Some of the sannyasis also told that, "We were also in dilemma, what is true, and what is that. So very good place, and high class of devotees are here. So we want to hear the solution." He requested, Jayavara Maharaja requested Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja that, "Oh, you have taken sannyasa from Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and he has named you Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja, the savior of bhatki, the guardian. And you know so high class of these things, so we request you that you should answer this question."

 

Then pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja began to speak. He told that the same payaga [verse]:

 

 

jivera 'svarupa' haya-krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti' 'bhedabheda-prakasa

(CC Madhya 20.108)

 

"It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord."

 

What is the meaning of this? That the nature of jiva, the svarupa of jiva, what is that? In this second line it has been written 'jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya-dasa,' it is true. But Krsna has so many powers, when He's adorned with all His powers, like saccidananda, sandhini, samvit, and hladini, cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, maya-sakti, oh there are lakhs and lakhs powers. So when he's adorned with all kinds of these powers, and when an amsa, a part comes, it is called svamsa.

So there are two things, two parts, one svamsa, and another is vibhinnamsa. So svamsa means when Krsna is adorned with his all saktis, like it has been told in Svatasvatara Upanisad.

 

Naveen Krishna Prabhu:

 

 

na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate

na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate

parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate

svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca

(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8)

 

"He does not possess bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity. There is no difference between His body and His soul. He is absolute. All His senses are transcendental. Any one of His senses can perform the action of any other sense. Therefore, no one is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence."

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: 'Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca.' Always Krsna cannot be divided, separated from His powers. Always He's adorned with all kinds of powers. So when He's completed with His all, complete saktis, all powers, and if there is part, it is called svamsa. Like Rama is svamsa, Nrsimha is svamsa, Varaha and others are svamsa. They have all powers that Krsna has, They are svamsa.

 

They have all the qualities, all the powers [that are] in Krsna, only four qualities [They do] not [have], otherwise everything is there in full.

 

But when Krsna, only He's adorned with jiva-sakti, and a part comes, then it is called vibhinnamsa. When Krsna, having no powers, He has subsided all the powers, and only one power [remains] and that is called jiva-sakti, tatastha-sakti, He takes it, and He is adorned with only tatastha-sakti. And then if a part comes it is called vibhinnamsa.

 

[note from SB 3.21.32pp - "There are different manifestations of the Lord. He is one, but He has become many. He divides Himself into two different expansions, one called svamsa-kala and the other vibhinnamsa. Ordinary living entities are called vibhinnamsa expansions, and the unlimited expansions of visnu-tattva, such as Vamana, Govinda, Narayana, Pradyumna, Vasudeva and Ananta, are called svamsa-kala."]

 

Jiva Gosvami has written in his Sandarbha, Bhagavat-sandarbha he has written all these things, very elevated. And Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has written it in very brief.

So, the jiva has this especial everything in him. When he comes to this world, by forgetting Krsna, from tatastha-sakti, not from Goloka Vrndavana he never comes [from Goloka Vrndavana].

 

Those jivas who are serving Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana, there is no maya, illusory maya, they cannot come down, they cannot forget Krsna. There is no reason, no cause there that they can forget Krsna. Always sinking in the waves of love and affection. No, there is no chance of forgetting Krsna. There is no maya [in Goloka], there is Yogamaya always, not Mahamaya, never. He cannot, he's beyond Viraja.

 

So, he [srila Sridhara Maharaja] again began to speak on the subject, that Bhaktivinoda Thakura has made an explanation on Siksastaka of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. On the first sloka 'ceto darpana marjanam.' He told that it has been clearly written everywhere a nature, a jiva cannot change and it cannot be changed. We see in Caitanya-caritamrta, there are two, three examples about this.

 

That Murari Gupta, an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. One day Caitanya Mahaprabhu called him and told that, "You should change your mood. Ramacandra and Krsna are same by tattva, but by rasa, by division of rasa, Krsna is original, and He is root of all, and He is superior than Rama and others." Ramacandra cannot make any marriage, and He cannot make rasa.

 

Devotee: Cannot make?

 

DK: He will not marry more than . . .

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: One more than Sita. Hanuman can serve His feet, but He cannot embrace Rama, or he cannot serve on, come himself on the bed of Rama. He cannot give his remnants to Rama. He will always fear that, "Oh, Rama is my superior and worshipable. Ramacandra is Himself God, Supreme Personality of Godhead." So he will always, folding his hands and he will serve His [Rama's] lotus feet, not like a friend. Sugriva was friend, and Vibhisana was also friend of Rama. But they were also like servants. They, never they can give their remnants to Rama, or they can come and play with Rama. But we can see that Sridama, Subala can defeat Krsna, and Krsna will be very happy by [being] defeated. And easily they will give [food to Krsna] from, taking from their mouth, and forcibly they will give. And if Krsna is sleeping on the bed, they will jump up on the bed, and tell, "O black, You are still sleeping."

 

Kausalya cannot abuse and bind Rama, but Yasoda very easily can bind Krsna. Kausalya cannot tighten Rama, but Yasoda can tighten Krsna and she can twist [Krsna's] ears, and Krsna may weep bitterly, "Waah, waah. O mother, don't beat Me, don't beat Me. I will never do like this. I will never go to steal. I promise that I will never go to neighbors and steal butter and all these things. I will never go."

 

Nanda Baba may tell that, "O, my naughty boy. You can bring my shoe." And He [Krsna] will take it on His head and dancing He will come [to Nanda Baba].

 

And gopis may tell that, "Oh, quickly come on. We are tired, you should massage our feets. No harm."

 

So [Caitanya Mahaprabhu is telling Murari Gupta], "So, you should give up Rama and come to Krsna, and you will be more happy. There is no difference, only difference of shape. So come on, come on. Come and serve Krsna."

 

He [Murari Gupta] agreed. And he went in the night to his home. But whole night no sleep, only weeping, weeping, weeping. Next day in morning he came and told [Caitanya Mahaprabhu], "I cannot give up Rama. I have given myself in the lotus feet of Rama. I cannot give up. If I am giving [up Rama], I will die."

 

Then Mahaprabhu, Caitanya Mahaprabhu embraced Murari Gupta. He told that, "I was only testing you. So I am happy that you should serve Rama, no harm."

 

So if this mood is in any jiva, it cannot be changed. Anyone, Krsna Himself cannot change it. He can, but He cannot avoid rules, He cannot avoid the rules and regulations.

 

Also we see that Rupa-Sanatana, they had one brother, Anupama, the father of Jiva Gosvami. He was serving Rama. His istadeva was Rama. Rupa Gosvami told him and Sanatana Gosvami [also told Anupama], "We are serving Krsna. So you are my [our] brother, younger brother, you follow me, us, and serve Krsna. Because Krsna is so much superior than Rama. Though tattva same, but Krsna is superior. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. So you should follow us."

 

But at that time, in the day time, he [Anupama] told, he admitted that, "I must follow you. We are three brothers, so I must follow, and we will be in the same rasa, always."

 

But in the night the same thing [as Murari Gupta], whole night weeping, weeping, weeping, and in morning he came and told that, "I will die, because I must die. I am going to Ganges, and I will jump in, because there is no way. Because you are my guru, you both are my guru, so I must follow you. But I cannot follow. If I am going to follow you, then I must die, I cannot give up Rama. So what should I do? I must follow you, and if I am not following then I must die. And if I am gong to give up Rama then I must also die. So there is no way, I should die."

 

Then Rupa and Sanatana were very happy, embraced him, and told that, "You should go on, go on serving Rama."

 

So the intrinsic nature, natural mood of jiva cannot change. But of sadhakas, those who are sadhakas, not siddha [it may change]. They [Murari Gupta and Anupama] were siddha. So if anyone is practicing bhakti-yoga, and he's not matured, not matured, then it may be that it may be changed.

 

There are two kinds of greeds -- un-matured greed and matured greed. If matured it cannot be changed. If it is not matured, oh, very easily it may be changed.

 

So here he's telling that Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to South India, in Sri Rangam, and He met three brothers and their son Gopala Bhatta. And quickly they were changed. They were serving Laksmi-Narayana for so many years and years, but when Caitanya Mahaprabhu went there, in four months only they were totally changed. They left Narayana upasana, the service of Narayana, worship of Narayana, and they began to worship and practice bhakti-yoga of Krsna. Then Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, he left his home and he came to Vrndavana. You know that he was, Gopala Bhatta [was] Guna-manjari. By his nature he was [Guna-manjari]. So it cannot be changed when it will be matured, but if it was not matured then it may be changed. But when it will come to its matured position, oh, never it can be changed. He was serving Radha and Krsna as Guna-manjari. Guna-manjari he was.

 

So any jiva can have any [nature, identity]. If they have come in the line of Caitanya Mahaprabhu anyhow, we think that they are so fortunate to come in the line of Rupa Gosvami and Mahaprabhu. And it seems that have some seed, potency in that seed that they are all madhura-rasa. All became very happy to hear all these things, very happy and energetic.

Then himself, pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja, he saw towards my Gurudeva, Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and he told that, "I want that you should speak something on this subject."

 

Then very humbly our Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja began to speak on this very high class of subject. Then he began to tell that, "Oh, in Siksastaka, in the first sloka:

 

 

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhu-jivanam

 

Vidya-vadhu-jivanam. On this special thing, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has a very good, high class of commentary. You can see, and he has written in that commentary, that all the jivas, who are now, seems to be conditioned, they have also a potency of their rasa, rupa, name, shape, everything, nitya dasa, there. So everything is in, like a potency in that. Like in a seed of mango. All the shape, fruits, taste, everything is there. And in tamarind seed the trees of tamarind, leaves, taste, everything in that. In neem tree, oh, in that seed all the things, leaves, tree, taste, everything will be in seed.

 

If you are not understanding, you can question something. You are listening from there. You are hearing something? I will ask that what you heard, understood. You are listening? It is clear? So you should give also my things.

 

[Maharaja addresses different devotees to make sure they understand this point, and that the translator is able to translate it into Spanish.]

 

So all jivas have a special shape, a special name, a special quality, a special mood to serve Krsna. Their color of clothes, everything is there, but in, like a potency there, hidden by maya now.

 

Two coverings, one of, one would be ahankara citta, suksma, subtle body, and next this having eleven senses, coverings. So when the covering will go away, and it will be liberated, automatically that same thing will come.

 

Like we can take so many seeds, seed of mango, seed of neem tree, seed of tamarind, seed of jackfruit, seed of wheat, seed of corn, seed of rice, and go to the same bank of Ganges, same sweet water, same soil, earth, some gardener. He will put there in earth, and he will take water from same Ganges, and he will give to all seeds. After some days all seeds will be sprouted. And then when they will come out, they will be like same in sprouted stage. But when leaves will come, then they will begin to change their colors, shape, and everything. And when they will be big trees in matured stage, oh, they will be all like separate, and then fruits will come in separate way, and then taste will come in separate. Not of any of the seeds will come in same, though water is same, air is same, sun is same, gardener is same, soil is same, everything is same.

 

So the jivas are so many, and one teacher, to whom we are associated, but when they will hear hari-katha, then what will become? When maya will go, then their own nature, own name, own mood, everything will come separate, separate, separate.

Oh, very wonderful this, that, let them keep aside. You should take 100 seeds of mango, different mangos, and keep it in the same soil, same water, same gardener, same air, everything. But when they will come out, the taste of each mango will be different.

 

So Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura our saptam Gosvami [seventh Gosvami], saptam Gosvami, very high like Rupa-Sanatana, he has told in his Jaiva-dharma, that there were two disciples, Vijaya-kumara and Brajanatha and only one teacher. What teacher? Babaji Maharaja. One teacher, and they were hearing, hearing, hearing and one went like, sakhya-rasa, and one went in madhura-rasa. Hearing from top to bottom same hari-katha, same Gurudeva, same tattva, but one became, Vijaya-kumara went in madhura-rasa, and Brajanatha became in sakhya-rasa. How? If by, if it is by association it [one's nature] was changed, then it should have been changed, but never it changed.

So pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja and all were present there, oh, they became very happy, and clapping, clapping, and they told that, "Oh, we want to hear more and more." And he [bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja] told so many things more. But I have no time because now it is 12 [noon]. So Gaura-premanande!

 

Devotees: Haribol!

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: One thing. I want to request that you should not feel that you are in group of Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja, you are group of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, your group is Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, or you are group of that Puri Maharaja, or you are group of that, that. Don't [think this]. You should only think that we are only group in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's family.

 

Devotees: Gaura-premanande! Haribol!

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Our hari-katha is only one hari-katha. Water is the same, but bottle may be different, somewhat reddish, sometimes green, no harm. Wine same, but bottle may be different. Name may be some different, but we are all Gaudiya Vaisnavas, Rupanuga Gaudiya Vaisnavas, same thing. But now some are going and derailing. Swamiji Maharaja himself he told me, "Oh, go and preach and help, also help my devotees." But now they have shut their doors, closed their doors. "Oh, Narayana Maharaja can't go come." And that is why they are going, falling down, always falling down, falling down. So you should hear hari-katha. I have only to give without any self-gain, nothing, only to help Swamiji and all the devotees who are now weakened somewhat. You had become weak, [so] I have come. Swamiji and my Gurudeva, Krsna, Mahaprabhu has sent me only to help you. Not that I have come to make disciples, and make so much wealth and money, another group. I'm not going to make another group. We are same group. I have come to assemble them in one group everywhere.

 

I think today is Nrsimha-caturdasi. We will speak on Nrsimha-caturdasi. I want that so many devotees should assemble, and we can give our hari-katha there. And it will be very high class of hari-katha there. And I request you all to come and to bring your all friends and relatives.

 

 

[kirtana of Jaya Jaya Radha Ramana Haribol!]

[Guest guest]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj may have said the things Narayana Maharaja said he said. I wasn't there so I cannot say for sure. Again, Narayana Maharaja's understanding of what Srila Sridhar Maharaj was trying to convey may be wrong.

 

For we know for certain Srila Sridhar Maharaj did say this:

 

 

Very rarely, by the will of the Lord, we find that the type of faith

changes. In the case of Gaudiya Vaishnavas we find this of

Shyamananda Prabhu, who was Hridaya Chaitanya's disciple. His

faith changed from sakhya to madhura through a special grant of

Lalita devi.

 

Radharani, internally, previously asked Subal about this. To Subal

she communicated, “I am taking one of your servitors within my

camp.” Amongst the leaders there was some understanding of the

transformation. So it is possible that this type of conversion may

happen. By special interference of the will of those high officials

or of Krishna himself it is possible.

 

(we have this on an MP3 sound recording)

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj may have said the things Narayana Maharaja said he said. I wasn't there so I cannot say for sure. Again, Narayana Maharaja's understanding of what Srila Sridhar Maharaj was trying to convey may be wrong.

 

For we know for certain Srila Sridhar Maharaj did say this:

 

 

(we have this on an MP3 sound recording)

 

It is a fact that Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami requested NM to help guide his disciples. It is a known fact that Prabhupada asked the same thing of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, in fact, in his enthusiasm over the rapid success of his campaingn in the West, Prabhupada expected practically all his brothers in Gaudiya Math to come and support Iskcon as a unified front. So he trusted NM, SSM, and many others equally.

 

Regarding the possible discrepancy between NM's words and words of Srila Sridhara Maharaja recorded on tape, both versions can be easily reconciled.

 

My point here is in regard rasa being the "reasoning" behind the duality of Radha-Krishna.

[Beggar]

 

Originally Posted by Srila Sridhar Maharaj

Very rarely, by the will of the Lord, we find that the type of faith

changes. In the case of Gaudiya Vaishnavas we find this of

Shyamananda Prabhu, who was Hridaya Chaitanya's disciple. His

faith changed from sakhya to madhura through a special grant of

Lalita devi.

Radharani, internally, previously asked Subal about this. To Subal

she communicated, “I am taking one of your servitors within my

camp.” Amongst the leaders there was some understanding of the

transformation. So it is possible that this type of conversion may

happen. By special interference of the will of those high officials

or of Krishna himself it is possible.

 

[Guest guest]

 

[Guest guest]

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

Whoever are "we"? Anyway, there is no harm in presenting the statements of Srila Sridhara Maharaja so they will become more clear to those who were not there when SSM made the satements, or have not been exposed to his ideas in a broader way. Anyone who will apply his honest heart while excercising common sense can easily see that both sadhus are speaking same conclusion. Meanwhile, some ("we") make politics.

 

.....................

 

I like to stay on topic, so I will not reply in these lines any further. My deep respects to the feet of SSM as well as SNM.

[Guest guest]

 

Whoever are "we"? Anyway, there is no harm in presenting the statements of Srila Sridhara Maharaja so they will become more clear to those who were not there when SSM made the satements, or have not been exposed to his ideas in a broader way. <b>Anyone who will apply his honest heart while excercising common sense can easily see that both sadhus are speaking same conclusion</b>. Meanwhile, some ("we") make politics.

 

.....................

 

I like to stay on topic, so I will not reply in these lines any further. My deep respects to the feet of SSM as well as SNM.

 

Have you considered the possibility they are preaching different conclusions?

[Guest guest]

 

Have you considered the possibility they are preaching different conclusions?

 

that might be true, but have you ever considered that if one get's sand in the sweetrice, that it is not fit for consumption?

 

 

I guess there is a class of devotee who will drink sweetrice with sand in it, but if sweetrice without sand is available, them most would prefer that preparation.

 

should we offer sweetrice with sand in it to the Lord?

[Beggar]

 

According to Jadurani and her siksa-guru, the actual deeper mood of Srila Sridhara Maharaja is known to Narayana Maharaja. The things Srila Sridhar Maharaj said to his disciples are "spoken according to the qualification of the person who was asking the question" (see quote above from Narayana Maharaja). The teachings Srila Sridhar Maharaj gave are lower truths superseded by Narayana Maharaja's "higher" teachings.

 

If you'll look closely the text says, "This was spoken according to the qualification of the person who was asking the question" applies specifically to the topic of the identity of Sri Gadadhar Pandit in Krsna lila. Nothing here indicates that Narayana Maharaja is saying that everything Sridhar Maharaja gave during the 1980s is relative to his audience. Some who have read or heard the records of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's talks in those days will be able to percieve that some of his Hari katha was over the heads of the audience and some was, "spoken according to the qualification of the person who was asking the question". Some who listen or read nowadays will be able to detect the difference and some will not. This whole topic is an example of what Srila Sridhar Maharaja called the "relative application of the absolute conception". Again, irrespective of my personal viewpoint on Narayana Maharaja I am shocked at how Srdhar Maharaja's so called followers who are on a smear Narayana Maharaja campaign, will alter the teachings of Sridhar Maharaja to further their goal. One of the reasons that it was so important to get Sridhar Maharaja's teachings out to ISKCON in the 1980s was that many ISKCON devotees had a habit of demonizing Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. Just recently one lady Prabhupada disciple told me after I had quoted Sridhar Maharaja to her in person, "didn't Srila Prabhupada say that all his godbrothers were mayavadis and demons?" This is some of the ignorance and prejudice that still goes around. The 1982 Vyasa Puja book for Srila Prabhupada contained insulting and abusive remarks against Srila Sridhar Maharaja in so called glorifications by GBC members. Now in the name of Sridhar Maharaja the same kind of thing is going on, but this is worse, because its more organized, more venomous and has been going on for a much longer time. Plus those who know the mood of Srila Sridhar Maharaja know that this could have never happened in his day. He wouldn't have had to stop it for it never would have occured. Such was the power of his mood and presence on this Earth. And this is irrespective of his opinion of Narayana Maharaja. Srila Sridhar Maharaja had differences with his godbrothers and this is well documented. If he disagreed on Ratha Yatra with Keshava Maharaja then he certainly disagreed with Bhaktivendanta Srila Prabhupada on the issue, but their relationship went on anyway. The result of these differences was that he went to live alone and give his own uncompromising realizations in peace. A few times the topic of the Ratha Yatra dispute were brought up by him in his 80s dicourses but only a FEW TIMES. If you don't like one camp then stick with your own camp. But if you want associate with devotees of different camps,(and maybe different realizations) in person or on the internet you will have to comport yourself as Sridhar Maharaja would in these circumstances. Otherwise why did you come to Sridhar Maharaja's side in the first place?

[Guest guest]

 

The result of these differences was that he (Srila Sridhar Maharaj) went to live alone and give his own uncompromising realizations in peace.

 

This is true.

 

 

I avoided Keshava Maharaj, Madhava Maharaj and so many others. I came to live alone.