Books and Living Sadhus

[Guest guest]

 

...<i>that is a tremendous logical leap... if guru is directly Lord Hari, can he create universes out of pores of his skin?</i>

 

(If he wanted to he could easily)

 

<i>does he have a universal form as well?</i>

 

(yes he does, you haven't seen it?)

 

(the pure devotee is more than God. he has God in his fist and he can give God to whomever he chooses)

 

Soooo... you're more than willing to glorify Srila Prabhupada that he can create universes, has a universal form, and can function in a God-like manner in whatever way he chooses. Yet, you deny that he is omniscient! So many inconsistencies.

 

The fact is, Guru is greater than God, which you mentioned, but the point is, he controls God by his love. If he wanted a universe created, he would not do this himself, but rather, ask Lord Hari to do it for him.

 

Do you see the difference?

[Nrsinghadev]

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has written, "guru krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane, guru-rupe krsna krpa karena bhakta-gane"Translation : 'According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is non-different from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees. (Adi-lila 1.45)

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami has also written,

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa, antaryami bhakta-srestha, ei dui rupa

Translation : 'One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.(Adi lila 1.47)

It's easy to see how one who cannot properly adjust according to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of "acintya bheda-(a)bheda tattva" or simultneous oneness and difference will fall into the trap of either unqualified dualism or unqualified monism. Just more evidence of the need for good association.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. Those statements of Kaviraja Goswami simply imply we are to see Guru to be "as good as God" because he is delivering the fallen souls by relaying the same message that Krishna, the Original Guru, Has first spoken, and by doing so he is mercifully spreading the message of God as God's representative. Like Prabhupada often brought up: When a king sends his emissary to another party to speak in his name, the emissary is received with the same respect as the king. Treat him as you would treat God, not that he is God. This is established by Prabhupada time and again, to consider guru to be God Himself goes against all the teachings of Acintyabhedabheda Tattva.

 

(the pure devotee is more than God. he has God in his fist and he can give God to whomever he chooses)

 

God is controlled by the love of His pure devotee but that still doesn't make the devotee greater than God. The pure devotee is so dear to Krishna that He derives more pleasure if you please and serve His devotee rather than Him directly. However, guest is misinterpreting this to indicate that one of His eternally fragmented atomic particles is more than the complete whole. If guru is pleased with his disciple he will beg the Lord to bestow His mercy on that disciple, but guest makes it sound as if Krishna becomes some sort of "mercy-tool" which Guru can use at his discretion.

Like Beggar said: "Just more evidence of the need for good association" rather than this "all we need are his books" nonsense that is becoming quite the trend here lately.

 

Haribol!

[theist]

 

Like Beggar said: "Just more evidence of the need for good association" rather than this "all we need are his books" nonsense that is becoming quite the trend here lately.

 

I have heard this complaint before and am always mystified by it. I have never heard anyone claim that good association was to be avoided and one should just read books.

 

Perhaps an example can be given.

[Guest guest]

 

Soooo... you're more than willing to glorify Srila Prabhupada that he can create universes, has a universal form, and can function in a God-like manner in whatever way he chooses. Yet, you deny that he is omniscient! So many inconsistencies.

 

The fact is, Guru is greater than God, which you mentioned, but the point is, he controls God by his love. If he wanted a universe created, he would not do this himself, but rather, ask Lord Hari to do it for him.

 

Do you see the difference?

 

Don't shoot the messenger.

Srila Prabhupada authorized and approved his murti worship.

He approved of Kirtananada building a temple of gold dedicated to his murti worship.

 

All this criticism of murti worhship is criticism of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I didn't invent murti worship, authorize murti worship or establish murti worship.

 

Srila Prabhupada authorized all that.

 

Your criticizing murti worship is actually criticism of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I had nothing to do with it.

[Guest guest]

 

I have heard this complaint before and am always mystified by it. I have never heard anyone claim that good association was to be avoided and one should just read books.

 

Perhaps an example can be given.

 

then you have missed their point prabhu.

 

They say that there is ONLY one sadhu left on the planet and if you don't surrender to the rightful heir to ISKCON then you cannot get any good association.

 

they have been saying this for years.

 

There is only ONE sadhu on Earth.

 

You must surrender to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[theist]

 

then you have missed their point prabhu.

 

They say that there is ONLY one sadhu left on the planet and if you don't surrender to the rightful heir to ISKCON then you cannot get any good association.

 

they have been saying this for years.

 

There is only ONE sadhu on Earth.

 

You must surrender to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I meant I have never heard anyone who accepts the LIVING PRESENCE of Srila Prabhupada in his instructions say there is no need for good association. Souls are free to determine for themselves where to find what they consider to be good association. Agree or disagree that is everyone's God-given right and needs to be respected.

[Beggar]

Sastra is passive but sadhu is active, Sadhu can give active help but sastra helps in a passive way. We have to draw the purport from it, but sadhu can distribute its nectar. He can correct me from my erroneous ideas, but sastra cannot do so.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja

[Shakti-Fan]

 

A Question of Inheritance: Reply to Lokaguru das

 

BY: MURALI KRSNA SWAMI

 

 

 

Jul 11, USA (SUN) —

Dear Lokaguru, you ask why do I “feel” that Bhagavat prabhu is not surrendered to the order of his spiritual master. The answer is very simple. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja was once speaking fondly about Bhagavat prabhu and the pastime of Srila Prabhupada’s asking Bhagavat to live and serve and help manage ISKCON’s Krsna Balarama Mandir in Bhubaneswar. A disciple of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja asked,

“If Srila Prabhupada gave such a clear instruction to Bhagavat prabhu to dedicate his life in Bhubaneswar and to help you manage here, why is he (Bhagavat prabhu) not following Srila Prabhupada’s direct and specific instructions?”

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja laughed and affectionately replied, “Bhagavat is in maya right now. When he is done with all this nonsense, he will come back to Bhubaneswar and follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions.”

 

 

Here is a 1996 Vyasa puja offering to Srila Prabhupada, directly from the lips (pen) of Bhagavat prabhu himself:

• 
  
  
  ..You (Srila Prabhupada) first requested me to come to Orissa with Gour-Govinda Maharaja in 1975. Our initial trip here was unsuccessful. Gour-Govinda Maharaja took sannyasa and returned here alone, and in 1976 I used to visit him when I was selling books to the schools and libraries in Orissa.
  In 1977, in spite of my unlimited protestations, you gave me the service of staying in Orissa permanently.
  I remember when you called me into the room (I was told later that you asked Satsvarupa Maharaja, "Get me the fat one"). When I entered the room you asked, "So, Bhagavat Maharaja, how are you?"
  
  
  "Fine, Srila Prabhupada." I replied.
  
  
  Then you told me,
  "So I would like you to stay here in Bhubaneshwar with Gour-Govinda Maharaja and help him develop this project; you will be co-director with him."
  
  
  I explained that I had just received a letter from Adi-kesava inviting me to go to New York to take up some management responsibilities.
  
  
  You frowned, showing your dissatisfaction. "There are so many devotees in New York already. You don't need to go to New York."
  
  
  I became nervous. "But Srila Prabhupada," I said, protesting, "I am not feeling well. I need to go back to the West to recover." The distress was evident in my voice, but, Srila Prabhupada, you would have none of it.
  
  
  "You can be very healthy right here. There is clean air and clean water, and you can pass stool out in the open and take bath. This is a very healthy place for you."
  
  
  My anxiety grew. "But," I further protested, "I do not get along with Gargamuni Maharaja, and he is the GBC here."
  
  
  You dismissed this as a minor problem. "I will remove Gargamuni Maharaja as GBC and you will work directly under me." Now you made me GBC without title.
  
  
  Grasping for some solution, I finally revealed my offense to you. I was convinced that upon hearing that my sadhana was lacking you would not allow me to take over an entire project. "I am not chanting my rounds, Srila Prabhupada," I confessed.
  
  
  But you were not to be outdone. Your determination was clear. You paused briefly and then said, "I have noted that you work very hard, and when you work hard for Krsna sometimes you cannot chant your rounds. That is all right as long as you work hard for Krsna." Everyone in the room sat in stunned silence, seeing your unflagging determination.
  I finally surrendered. "It is stated in sastra," I began, "that by following the orders of the spiritual master and pleasing him one will make spiritual advancement and please Krsna. So if you want me to stay here, Srila Prabhupada, then I will." My reward was instantaneous. Your face lit up with a smile a mile wide, and your eyes twinkled with great satisfaction.
  
  
  "Yes," you said, "that is correct. You have understood my books."
  That was in February of 1977. Later that same year, in the last days before you passed from this world, I confided to you when we were alone late one night that I was concerned about your leaving and about what I would do after you were gone. You simply said,
  "You should stay in Bhubaneshwar with Gour-Govinda Maharaja."
  
  
  You know why I had to leave Bhubaneshwar. Over the course of the years, bereft of my service, I wandered here and there trying to fit in and find myself and some service, both in and out of ISKCON. Sometimes I would think of my days in Bhubaneshwar, and whenever Gour-Govinda Maharaja came to the US on tour I would go to see him and he
  (Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja) would remind me that Srila Prabhupada had told me to stay in Orissa and help manage the affairs there.
  But I was caught in the web of Maya, doing business, making money, paying off loans.
  
  
  I was planning to come to Bhubaneshwar in August of this year when suddenly you came to me in a dream. You asked me what I was doing. I said I was living in Alachua (Florida), doing some work, going to the temple, organizing some programs. You said, "What service are you doing?"
  
  
  I replied, "Well, I plan to go back to Bhubaneshwar and help build the temple in Puri, open an Ayurvedic clinic, do prasadam distribution, and preach in the villages." The whole time you were smiling broadly and shaking your head in a gesture of approval.
  Then suddenly you stopped and looked at me very seriously and said, "Remember, you must go back to Bhubaneshwar.
  " I woke up bewildered. When is it that I should go? Today? Tomorrow? Next year? I was not sure. I decided to wait for a while to see if there would be some sign of what I should do. One week later my dear Godbrother Gour-Govinda Maharaja entered into samadhi, and then I understood that I had to go immediately! I left my high-paying job, withdrew my savings from the bank, and came back to the service that you authorized me to do in the first place.
  
  
  Returning after all these years to do this service, I feel your presence and association more deeply then I have in years. I thought I was doing service for you in Alachua, but
  now I understand that since I was fortunate enough to be given service by you directly then I must do that particular service or else I am not actually pleasing Your Divine Grace
  . Once in Vrndavana you were talking to a few devotees in your room, and while speaking these words you looked directly at me and said, "We have associated previously, we are associating now, and in the future." In spite of all my sinful offenses you have not forgotten me. You came in the middle of the night while I was sleeping in the lap of Maya, and you rescued me from a fate worse than death.
  You have not allowed me to forget my promise to you to stay in Bhubaneshwar as you ordered. This is my prabhu-datta-desa, the place where I have been ordered to perform my devotional service to Krsna by my Guru.
  
  
  It is said that the spiritual master lives eternally in his instructions and the disciple lives with him. I have never felt that more deeply in my life than I do right now. As it is also stated, I shall never be able to repay my debt to you. All glories to you, my Divine Master Paramahamsa Paramapujya 108 Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada on this, the hundredth anniversary of your birth! May your glories be spread throughout the three worlds! The devotees in Bhubaneshwar, India
  
  
  (written by Bhagavat dasa)
  
  

 

 

 

I will leave you with Srila Prabhupada’s

SB 3.22.7 Translation and Purport

and lastly with a short excerpt from a lecture given by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja on the topic of surrender in order to be able to hear.

 

 

SB 3.22.7

:

 

I have fortunately been instructed by you, and thus great favor has been bestowed upon me. I thank God that I have listened with open ears to your pure words.

 

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami has given directions, in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, on how to accept a bona fide spiritual master and how to deal with him.

First, the desiring candidate must find a bona fide spiritual master, and then he must very eagerly receive instructions from him and execute them.

This is reciprocal service.

 

 

Manu said that since he was advised and instructed by Kardama Muni, he was very much favored. He considered himself lucky to receive the message by aural reception. It is especially mentioned here that one should be very inquisitive to hear with open ears from the authorized source of the bona fide spiritual master. </B>How is one to receive? One should receive the transcendental message by aural reception. The word karna-randhraih means "through the holes of the ears."

The favor of the spiritual master is not received through any other part of the body but the ears.

This does not mean, however, that the spiritual master gives a particular type of mantra through the ears in exchange for some dollars and if the man meditates on that he achieves perfection and becomes God within six months. Such reception through the ears is bogus.

The real fact is that a bona fide spiritual master knows the nature of a particular man and what sort of duties he can perform in Krsna consciousness, and he instructs him in that way. He instructs him through the ear, not privately, but publicly. "You are fit for such and such work in Krsna consciousness. You can act in this way."

One person is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by working in the Deities' room, another is advised to act in Krsna consciousness by performing editorial work, another is advised to do preaching work, and another is advised to carry out Krsna consciousness in the cooking department.

There are different departments of activity in Krsna consciousness, and a spiritual master, knowing the particular ability of a particular man, trains him in such a way that by his tendency to act he becomes perfect. Bhagavad-gita makes it clear that one can attain the highest perfection of spiritual life simply by offering service according to his ability,

just as Arjuna served Krsna by his ability in the military art. Arjuna offered his service fully as a military man, and he became perfect. Similarly, an artist can attain perfection simply by performing artistic work under the direction of the spiritual master. If one is a literary man, he can write articles and poetry for the service of the Lord under the direction of the spiritual master.

One has to receive the message of the spiritual master regarding how to act in one's capacity, for the spiritual master is expert in giving such instructions.

 

 

This combination, the instruction of the spiritual master and the faithful execution of the instruction by the disciple, makes the entire process perfect. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura describes in his explanation of the verse in Bhagavad-gita, vyavasayatmika buddhih, that one who wants to be certain to achieve spiritual success must take the instruction from the spiritual master as to what his particular function is. He should faithfully try to execute that particular instruction and should consider that his life and soul. The faithful execution of the instruction which he receives from the spiritual master is the only duty of a disciple, and that will bring him all perfection. One should be very careful to receive the message from the spiritual master through the ears and execute it faithfully. That will make one's life successful.

 

 

Srila Gour Govinda Mahraja Lecture:

 

 

The Qualification to Hear

 

 

“So, we say this thing. The first item is sravanam¾hearing, and one who hears is a disciple.

But unless you surrender, or dedicate yourself, you cannot hear. This katha will never enter into your ear. In whose ear will this hari-katha enter? It will enter into the ear of one who is completely surrendered.

I quoted Prahlada Maharaja’s statement. First one must dedicate himself and surrender, then he develops this navada bhakti. Prahlada Maharaja says, “In my opinion he has studied the best. He is the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.” So, unless one surrenders he cannot hear. So, the first item is hearing and one who hears this bhagavata-katha, or krsna-katha, must first surrender. He must put complete faith in the words of sadhu, sastra, guru. Then he will surrender and then this katha will enter into his ears. Otherwise, if you don’t surrender, because you have no faith, it will never enter your ear. So, your heart will never be purified.

 

 

...If you make your own endeavor you cannot have it, because there is no question of service at all. He is not a servitor at all. Although he is a sisya, he is a pretender only¾a duplicitous person. There is only one purpose, that is, “How can I completely dedicate myself at the lotus feet of the Supremely Full¾purŠa-vastu¾that is Krsna.” No other purpose is there.

He is a real disciple, and he inherits the right to hear. It is a question of inheritance. Only he can hear. Otherwise, there is no question of hearing, no right of hearing.

This is a very deep thing. So, understand the purport of what I say. He is a real disciple, so, he inherits that right from guru. One who understands this thing very well, in tattva, by hearing from such a guru and by the mercy of that guru, is a real disciple. He is a real servant.”

 

 

Strictly following the instructions of the bona fide Guru, allows one to inherit the right to be able to hear. It is a question of inheritance. This was the point. As Prabhupada wrote above; “The faithful execution of the instruction which he receives from the spiritual master is the only duty of a disciple, and that will bring him all perfection.

One should be very careful to receive the message from the spiritual master through the ears and execute it faithfully. That will make one's life successful.”</U>

You see Lokaguru instead of following the clear instruction of Srila Prabhupada, Bhagavat prabhu and many others have chosen to follow a different instruction given by, I suppose, their siksa guru Narayana Maharaja. I live in Bhubaneswar and can safely say that there have been no sightings of Bhagavat prabhu (BFO’s). We sincerely hope he comes back to fulfill his debt and promise to Srila Prabhupada and to Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja. That is how to get Krsna prema.

SP Gayatri Mantra Initiation -- Boston, May 9, 1968:

“So if anyone who has got implicit faith in the spiritual master and also in God, to him all the imports of Vedic literature, becomes revealed. That is spiritual way of understanding. So, if one has a bona fide spiritual master to guide him, then his life is guaranteed to be perfect. This is the way. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado: ** "By the mercy of the spiritual master, one gets immediately the mercy of the Lord." Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi: ** "And if one dissatisfies the spiritual master, then he has no other way of perfection." So we have to follow. That's all. It doesn't matter that I'm not qualified. But if I follow the instruction of the superior, then automatically I become qualified.”

 

 

Prabhupada repeatedly states this as being the secret of success in spiritual life. It is a question of receiving mercy, the mercy to hear Hari katha and of our understanding of how to act in such a way as to deserve that mercy given by the spiritual master. If one has an apparent understanding, it simply means he has not heard properly from a tattva vit Guru; one who knows things in tattva from an absolute perspective. You see Lokaguru, Tattva; truth is not established based on speculation, opinions, votes or what the common people say, it is revealed through the heart and lotus mouth of a bona fide Sri Guru. Krsna manifests as Sri Guru and Sastra and the Supersoul. This is how Tattva is established.

 

CC M. 20.123:

‘sastra-guru-atma'-rupe apanare janana

‘krsna mora prabhu, trata' -- jivera haya jnana

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

"The forgetful conditioned soul is educated by Krsna through the Vedic literatures, the realized spiritual master and the Supersoul. Through these, he can understand the Absolute Truth the Supreme Personality of Godhead as He is, and he can understand that Lord Krsna is his eternal master and deliverer from the clutches of maya. In this way one can acquire real knowledge of his conditioned life and can come to understand how to attain liberation.

 

 

One who is sincere and serious for getting Krsna, Krsna as Sri Guru and Sastra reveals himself by his own sweet will to the deserving spirit soul who truly wants Krsna. Only Krsna can give Krsna. He then manifests a body and reveals Himself as Guru. It is said that Guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul.

 

nayam atma pravacanena labhyo

na medhaya na bahuna srutena

yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas

tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam

(Katha Upanisad 1.2.23)

 

 

The Supreme Lord can never be known by any amount of argument, reasoning, intelligence, or scholarship. The finite can never know the Infinite. By His own sweet will, however, the Infinite Supreme Person may assume a body and reveal Himself to the finite living entity. Those who wish to know the Infinite must therefore submit to Him only through complete loving surrender and service.

 

(Katha Upanisad 1.2.23)

 

 

If one is faithful to Krsna, Srila Prabhupada, His instructions and His Institution, even with all the tests and difficulties, Sri Guru manifesting as Srila Prabhuapa will reveal how He is always manifested within His ISKCON Society. If you get His mercy then you can see Him. Those who have unflinching faith in Krsna and Srila Prabhupada will always be able to recognize and not anyone else; regardless of what they may proclaim.

 

Thank you very much. All the best,

 

Murali Krsna Swami

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Sastra is passive but sadhu is active, Sadhu can give active help but sastra helps in a passive way. We have to draw the purport from it, but sadhu can distribute its nectar. He can correct me from my erroneous ideas, but sastra cannot do so.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja

 

yes, and that is what the Bhaktivedanta Purports are all about.

He explained the verses so that there would be no misunderstanding.

 

We don't need some sadhu to explain what Srila Prabhupada taught.

ISKCON devotees don't know shastra directly.

All they have ever relied on is what Srila Prabhupada said the shastra was saying.

Almost none of the ISKCON type devotees know Sanskrit or have any direct approach to shastra.

They are TOTALLY dependent on what Prabhupada said was in the shastra and they don't need some sadhu to explain what Prabhupada was saying.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't translate the shastra literally.

He explained the connotative meaning of shastra according to his own self-realized position to meet the needs of the time and circumstance.

 

We don't need any sadhu to explain the explanation.

[Guest guest]

 

We don't need any sadhu to explain the explanation.

 

Then why bother attending SB and Gita classes, where someone (presumably a sadhu or a senior devotee) is elaborating on Srila Prabhupada's purports?

 

If you don't need sadhus, then why all the philosophical disagreements amongst Srila Prabhupada's disciples, grand-disciples, and followers? They're all reading the same books, yet reaching different conclusions. If Srila Prabhupada were personally present at this time, (vapuh), he would harmonize everything and put an end to all disagreements and nescience. But since he isn't, sadhu sanga is available. It's your decision, no one is twisting your arm. Actually, with your present attitude, I find it highly doubtful that any Sadhu would bless you with his association. The Lord in your heart will keep you far far away from the Sadhus. And that's as it should be. You feel you don't need the Sadhu, and the Sadhu certainly does not need you. Bas.

[Guest guest]

 

Then why bother attending SB and Gita classes, where someone (presumably a sadhu or a senior devotee) is elaborating on Srila Prabhupada's purports?

 

If you don't need sadhus, then why all the philosophical disagreements amongst Srila Prabhupada's disciples, grand-disciples, and followers? They're all reading the same books, yet reaching different conclusions. If Srila Prabhupada were personally present at this time, (vapuh), he would harmonize everything and put an end to all disagreements and nescience. But since he isn't, sadhu sanga is available. It's your decision, no one is twisting your arm. Actually, with your present attitude, I find it highly doubtful that any Sadhu would bless you with his association. The Lord in your heart will keep you far far away from the Sadhus. And that's as it should be. You feel you don't need the Sadhu, and the Sadhu certainly does not need you. Bas.

 

 

Sadhu sanga is good for like-minded devotees who gather together to share their insight and realizations.

I know the value of sadhu sanga.

 

I don't discredit sadhu sanga.

 

I just discredit the strongarm pressure tactics to artificially impose some sadhu on the whole movement as if he is the successor acharya for ISKCON.

 

the person himself has made such claims and offended many, many devotees with that kind of foolish talk.

 

My idea of sadhu sanga is the devotees at Sri Caitanya Sarswata Math or with Nrisingha Maharaja's camp.

 

I most assuredly know the necessity of sadhu sanga and know that I don't have enough of it.

 

I don't buy Puru's abrasive, high pressure pushing of Narayana Maharaja as the successor to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Personally, I would love to be a part of something like Nrsingha Maharaja is doing in South India.

 

There are plenty of devotees I look up to for sadhu sanga.

 

That's why I moved to the largest devotee community in the USA.

 

I like being around lots of nice devotees.

[Kulapavana]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

that is a tremendous logical leap... if guru is directly Lord Hari, can he create universes out of pores of his skin?

(If he wanted to he could easily)

does he have a universal form as well?

(yes he does, you haven't seen it?)

in some ways what is happening in Iskcon today is similar to what happened to Swami Narayan group many years ago. Thank God we had our early deviants who tried to convince everybody that SP was God and he smashed them in most direct terms... otherwise: Lord help us!

(the pure devotee is more than God. he has God in his fist and he can give God to whomever he chooses)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

the understanding you present here is supported only by your sentiments, however noble they may be. there is NO shastric support for any of it.

 

true guru is great indeed in his own right - there is no need to invent false glories. you just need to fully understand his real ones...

 

 

 

but back to the issue of guru murti.

 

SP certainly authorized the worship of his murti, but nowhere does he say that he is present in his murti just like Lord Krishna is present in His arca-vigraha. (I suspect he would be furious at people who expound such theories, just like he was furious when some of his senior disciples started to preach he is God.) There is so much information in the shastra about Vishnu-tattva murtis, but practically nothing on guru tattva murtis.

 

so... rather than starting to make up "shastra" as you go, we should accept that SP wanted his disciples to worship his murti just like guru's shoes are traditionally placed on the altar besides the Deity and let it rest there. concoctions and interpolations are of little use here.

[Guest guest]

 

There is so much information in the shastra about Vishnu-tattva murtis, but practically nothing on guru tattva murtis.

 

 

Well, then I guess Srila Prabhupada being an incarnation of Lord Nityananda qualifies his murti worship on the level of deity worship.

 

Sridhar Maharaja said Srila Prabhupada was a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda.

 

Too bad you fellers don't know that.

[Kulapavana]

 

Well, then I guess Srila Prabhupada being an incarnation of Lord Nityananda qualifies his murti worship on the level of deity worship.

 

Sridhar Maharaja said Srila Prabhupada was a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda.

 

Too bad you fellers don't know that.

 

another over-reaching interpolation.

 

shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda means that Lord Nityananda invested Srila Prabhupada with special powers to spread the Holy Name and teach bhakti to a fallen audience.

 

investing a living entity (jiva) with special powers of the Lord needed to perform a particular and difficult service for Him - that is the case with ALL shaktyavesha avatars.

[Guest guest]

Isn't Bhagavata back in Alachua? Doesn't that sort of make the whole melodrama above null and void?

[Guest guest]

 

another over-reaching interpolation.

 

shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda means that Lord Nityananda invested Srila Prabhupada with special powers to spread the Holy Name and teach bhakti to a fallen audience.

 

investing a living entity (jiva) with special powers of the Lord needed to perform a particular and difficult service for Him - that is the case with ALL shaktyavesha avatars.

 

DIFFICULT. You can say that again. Sometimes I wonder why Lord Balarama didn't simply come and club everyone on the head into accepting the Hony Name! It would be easier than through all the debate and "spontaneous" surrender. The Lord surely enjoys a challenge.

[Kulapavana]

 

DIFFICULT. You can say that again. Sometimes I wonder why Lord Balarama didn't simply come and club everyone on the head into accepting the Hony Name! It would be easier than through all the debate and "spontaneous" surrender. The Lord surely enjoys a challenge.

 

the clubbing shaktyavesha avatara was Parasurama... (actually his case also involves an interesting withdrawal of the special shakti he was given by the Lord)

[Beggar]

 

yes, and that is what the Bhaktivedanta Purports are all about.

He explained the verses so that there would be no misunderstanding.

 

We don't need some sadhu to explain what Srila Prabhupada taught.

ISKCON devotees don't know shastra directly.

All they have ever relied on is what Srila Prabhupada said the shastra was saying.

Almost none of the ISKCON type devotees know Sanskrit or have any direct approach to shastra.

They are TOTALLY dependent on what Prabhupada said was in the shastra and they don't need some sadhu to explain what Prabhupada was saying.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't translate the shastra literally.

He explained the connotative meaning of shastra according to his own self-realized position to meet the needs of the time and circumstance.

 

We don't need any sadhu to explain the explanation.

If you had made a statement like this during the time of Srila Prabhupada you would have been severley chastised by the temple president or any ISKCON authority. Srila Prabhupada's program was that his followers would become sat or sad(hu), situated in brahma bhuta, by chanting at least 16 rounds, following the regulative principles and following the process. He certainly wanted his sanyassis and temple presidents and others to become sadhu. These are the devotees who would then give BG and SB classes when possible. The search for sadhus outside of ISKCON began when ISKCON leaders began to act asadhu. Then the fact that Srila Prabhupada wanted his followers to go to Sridhar Maharaja for siksa or instruction was revealed to the general mass of ISKCON devotees by Sripad Satsvarupa das Goswami in a talk at the Potomac temple in 1981.

[Guest guest]

Jiva Goswami says in the Bhaktisandarbha that the diksha guru happily encourages his disciples to seek out the association of Vaishnavas, as long as it does not negatively affect your service. If he does not, he should be "worshiped at a distance." In other words, you offer respects, but you don't pay attention to his interdiction.

 

Service, by the way, is primarily the nine kinds of devotional service.

[krsna]

Srila Gour Govinda Mahraja Lecture:

 

 

The Qualification to Hear

 

 

“So, we say this thing. The first item is sravanam¾hearing, and one who hears is a disciple. But unless you surrender, or dedicate yourself, you cannot hear. This katha will never enter into your ear. In whose ear will this hari-katha enter? It will enter into the ear of one who is completely surrendered. I quoted Prahlada Maharaja’s statement. First one must dedicate himself and surrender, then he develops this navada bhakti. Prahlada Maharaja says, “In my opinion he has studied the best. He is the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.” So, unless one surrenders he cannot hear. So, the first item is hearing and one who hears this bhagavata-katha, or krsna-katha, must first surrender. He must put complete faith in the words of sadhu, sastra, guru. Then he will surrender and then this katha will enter into his ears. Otherwise, if you don’t surrender, because you have no faith, it will never enter your ear. So, your heart will never be purified.

 

...If you make your own endeavor you cannot have it, because there is no question of service at all. He is not a servitor at all. Although he is a sisya, he is a pretender only¾a duplicitous person. There is only one purpose, that is, “How can I completely dedicate myself at the lotus feet of the Supremely Full¾purŠa-vastu¾that is Krsna.” No other purpose is there. He is a real disciple, and he inherits the right to hear. It is a question of inheritance. Only he can hear. Otherwise, there is no question of hearing, no right of hearing. This is a very deep thing. So, understand the purport of what I say. He is a real disciple, so, he inherits that right from guru. One who understands this thing very well, in tattva, by hearing from such a guru and by the mercy of that guru, is a real disciple. He is a real servant.”

Strictly following the instructions of the bona fide Guru, allows one to inherit the right to be able to hear. It is a question of inheritance. This was the point. As Prabhupada wrote above; “The faithful execution of the instruction which he receives from the spiritual master is the only duty of a disciple, and that will bring him all perfection. One should be very careful to receive the message from the spiritual master through the ears and execute it faithfully. That will make one's life successful.”</U>

[Guest guest]

 

I just discredit the strongarm pressure tactics to artificially impose some sadhu on the whole movement as if he is the successor acharya for ISKCON.

 

That's quite a loaded statement, and quite misleading. You have obviously turned a blind eye to the mean-spirited, strong-armed tactics utilized by Iskcon for the past 11 or 12 years in this connection. The Sadhu you refer to has no desire whatsoever to be any type of "successor acarya" to Ikscon. He is 85 years old, and simply wishes to travel, preach, and translate books, despite apparent health issues. Yes, you may be able to find a couple of out-of-context quotes wherein he said that he is "the successor." However, he is merely making a point, that despite Iskcon's rather vicious propaganda, he is indeed in line with Srila Prabhupada and that he does have an intimate connection with him, and that Srila Prabhupada would not approve of Iskcon's strong-armed tactics to attempt to demonize him and discourage devotees from seeing him. That's all.

 

If you're not interested in his sanga, that's fine. Really, it is. All I ask is that it would be nice if you could avoid using offensive adjectives such as "foolish" in your depiction of this Saint. That is offensive. It serves no productive purpose. Please be respectful and Vaishnava-like in your dealings. Surely you can disagree without being disrepectful. How 'bout some harmony amongst the Vaishnavas! Can I see some love?! Oh, wouldn't that be nice.

[Guest guest]

 

another over-reaching interpolation.

 

shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda means that Lord Nityananda invested Srila Prabhupada with special powers to spread the Holy Name and teach bhakti to a fallen audience.

 

investing a living entity (jiva) with special powers of the Lord needed to perform a particular and difficult service for Him - that is the case with ALL shaktyavesha avatars.

 

That's not the way Sridhar Maharaja explains shaktyavesha.

 

He says that saktyavesha avatar means that the Lord actually comes down and works through a particular living entity.

 

The Lord enters into the heart of that soul and does his work.

 

So, your idea of shaktyavesha avatar does not correspond to what Sridhar Maharaja has said.

 

I accept Sridhar Maharaja's version over yours.

[theist]

 

That's quite a loaded statement, and quite misleading. You have obviously turned a blind eye to the mean-spirited, strong-armed tactics utilized by Iskcon for the past 11 or 12 years in this connection. The Sadhu you refer to has no desire whatsoever to be any type of "successor acarya" to Ikscon. He is 85 years old, and simply wishes to travel, preach, and translate books, despite apparent health issues. Yes, you may be able to find a couple of out-of-context quotes wherein he said that he is "the successor." However, he is merely making a point, that despite Iskcon's rather vicious propaganda, he is indeed in line with Srila Prabhupada and that he does have an intimate connection with him, and that Srila Prabhupada would not approve of Iskcon's strong-armed tactics to attempt to demonize him and discourage devotees from seeing him. That's all.

 

If you're not interested in his sanga, that's fine. Really, it is. All I ask is that it would be nice if you could avoid using offensive adjectives such as "foolish" in your depiction of this Saint. That is offensive. It serves no productive purpose. Please be respectful and Vaishnava-like in your dealings. Surely you can disagree without being disrepectful. How 'bout some harmony amongst the Vaishnavas! Can I see some love?! Oh, wouldn't that be nice.

 

Guest of post #46.

 

You protest too much. What everyone Narayana Maharaja may think or say his disciples have been pushing the idea ad nausem for years that without his personal siksa in their lives Prabhupada's disciples cannot really hear Srila Prabhupada. Of course it is a farsical and nonsensicle idea but nontheless the fact. This is what inspires the negative comments that come in return. His disciples are the main cause of this negative banter directed towards him. Which really makes their motive in continuing with it extremely suspect.

[Kulapavana]

 

That's not the way Sridhar Maharaja explains shaktyavesha.

 

He says that saktyavesha avatar means that the Lord actually comes down and works through a particular living entity.

 

The Lord enters into the heart of that soul and does his work.

 

So, your idea of shaktyavesha avatar does not correspond to what Sridhar Maharaja has said.

 

I accept Sridhar Maharaja's version over yours.

 

I'm not sure that there is a contradiction here. Can you provide actual quotes of SM in that regard?

 

Tripurari Maharaja's version:

 

"It was the opinion of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja that my Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was specifically empowered--by an aspect of Nityananda Prabhu's power--to distribute bhakti when he was crossing the ocean to come to the West for the first time. He knew Prabhupada before he went, and he met him afterward as well and noticed the difference. After analyzing Prabhupada's contribution and the nature of his campaign, Sridhara Maharaja came to this conclusion. Some others outside of the Gaudiya Saraswata sampradaya also reached this conclusion."

 

I fail to see how my take on this issue contradicts any of the above. Or how does the above have any bearing on the murti issue. In Iskcon, SP murtis are worshipped based on SP instructions, irrespective of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's pronouncements as to the shaktyavesa nature of SP.

[Guest guest]

 

I'm not sure that there is a contradiction here. Can you provide actual quotes of SM in that regard?

 

 

 

I probably can't.

This was something that Sudhira Maharaja told me that Sridhar Maharaja explained to him.

 

There is much that Sridhar Maharaja spoke that was not recorded and there is much recorded that has net been put into books.

 

So, everything that Sridhar Maharaja ever said might night be in any of the books that are ascribed to him.

 

Maybe somone that has more resources than me can provide some further evidence.

 

Parasurama and Vyasadeva are two examples of shaktavesha avatars that are considered incarnations of Godhead.

 

Shaktyavesha avatara means "incarnation of Godhead".