Books and Living Sadhus

[Kulapavana]

 

I probably can't.

This was something that Sudhira Maharaja told me that Sridhar Maharaja explained to him.

 

remarks made by acharyas sometimes grow in the hearts and minds of the listeners, morphing into new entities or picking up unintended flavors...

 

if there is no explicit and direct explanation from the acharya on record, such statements must be seen in the light of shastric references, which are often extremely broad. shaktyavesa avatars are an enormously varied and complex category, with hundreds of shastric verses to consider. Thus we should not easily jump to conclusions.

[Guest guest]

 

That's quite a loaded statement, and quite misleading. You have obviously turned a blind eye to the mean-spirited, strong-armed tactics utilized by Iskcon for the past 11 or 12 years in this connection. <b>The Sadhu you refer to has no desire whatsoever to be any type of "successor acarya" to Ikscon.</b> He is 85 years old, and simply wishes to travel, preach, and translate books, despite apparent health issues. Yes, you may be able to find a couple of out-of-context quotes wherein he said that he is "the successor." However, he is merely making a point, that despite Iskcon's rather vicious propaganda, he is indeed in line with Srila Prabhupada and that he does have an intimate connection with him, and that Srila Prabhupada would not approve of Iskcon's strong-armed tactics to attempt to demonize him and discourage devotees from seeing him. That's all.

 

If you're not interested in his sanga, that's fine. Really, it is. All I ask is that it would be nice if you could avoid using offensive adjectives such as "foolish" in your depiction of this Saint. That is offensive. It serves no productive purpose. Please be respectful and Vaishnava-like in your dealings. Surely you can disagree without being disrepectful. How 'bout some harmony amongst the Vaishnavas! Can I see some love?! Oh, wouldn't that be nice.

 

Listen to what your sadhu says more closely dude.

 

He does think he is the one and only successor of Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Narayana Maharaja: “Your Prabhupada, Srila Swami Maharaja, only changed the name into English. He is not the founder-acarya of that eternal ISKCON… I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON. I am 'Bhaktivedanta' [srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja]. Like father, like son. <b>I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. </b>I am Bhaktivedanta and he is Bhaktivedanta, but he received this name after I did. I'm senior to him in this regard… I'm Bhaktivedanta, and I’m also ISKCON. Don't think that I'm out of ISKCON.” Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve):

[Guest guest]

Dear prabhu,

 

First of all, I'm not a "dude." Second, I will once again appeal to your better nature to kindly be respectful when discussing Sadhus whom you obviously do not understand. Better to err on the side of caution. Yes?

 

That "quote" was made over 4 years ago. You and others like you who wish to vilify Maharaja are the ones who are obsessed with repeating it over and over, making it your daily meditation, and making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

The emphasis in your quote is yours, the quote is taken out of context, and to top it off, the quote is not even accurate.

 

Being that you are not a disciple of Srila Maharaja, and are in fact quite openly antagonistic, (as most ritviks are), it is safe to say that a devoted disciple would know his heart and mood far better than your good self.

 

Jadurani dasi elaborates as follows:

 

 

The compilation quoted Srila Maharaja saying, "I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other." Perhaps, by doing this, the compilation is trying to say that Srila Maharaja is not bona fide because a self-effulgent acarya does not need to proclaim himself. But the compilation is wrong in its assumption. Surely Srila Maharaja is only separating himself from the hundreds of pretenders who masquerade as gurus, and there is no harm in that. This statement is not exclusive but inclusive. When Prabhupada was asked in 1969 in Boston what Jesus meant when he said I am the only son of my father. No one can come to Him but through me, Prabhupada replied, "He means, 'by me or anyone like me; in other words, by me or any bona fide representative of God.'" Similarly 'guru is one', as we have heard, and at the same time there is more than one bona fide guru. Srila Maharaja is not disparaging other bona fide teachers. He is simply saying that it is no small thing to perfectly represent the line of Gaudiya acaryas.

 

Srila Maharaja's statement can also be seen in this way: His is the statement of a son who loves his father (Prabhupada) so much that he can say that "No one can love my father as much as I." This is not at all pride in himself, but in his beloved Srila Swami Maharaja, our Srila Prabhupada. We cannot imagine such love in our Western culture.

 

Accept this explanation or not, but please don't presume to know the heart and soul of a Saint with whom you have zero connection. And please try to remember the first offense to Sri Nama Prabhu. Yes?

[Beggar]

 

Listen to what your sadhu says more closely dude.

 

He does think he is the one and only successor of Srila Prabhupada.

 

If the current SCSM didn't have an agenda and a vendeta vis a vis Narayana Maharaja they would seek to harmonize his statements. For harmony they might say that this is an example of guru abhimana, the ego of the guru or acarya and that by this he is merely trying to "collect and concentrate the faith of his disciples". If there are disagreements over shastric interpretations and sidhhantas that's one thing but this thing is way out of hand. If a NM person was assaulted by a SCSM person they could probably prove it was a "hate crime" under the law in most U.S. states. Don't be a hater or a dude, try to comport yourself like a bhakta.

[Beggar]

 

If a NM person was assaulted by a SCSM person they could probably prove it was a "hate crime" under the law in most U.S. states. Don't be a hater or a dude, try to comport yourself like a bhakta.

I may not have read the previous posts closely enough. I probablly should have said, If a NM person was assaulted by a Rtvik person they could probably prove it was a "hate crime" under the law in most U.S. states. Don't be a hater or a dude, try to comport yourself like a bhakta.

[Guest guest]

Urmila is an ISKCON Guru.

 

Urmila published this quote of Narayana Maharaja "I am the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and there is no other. You should know this very openly. "

 

Whether Narayana Maharaja said this four years ago or forty really doesn't matter. Narayana Maharaja said "You should know this very openly" so it is clear Narayana Maharaja wants people to regard his as the real successor of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. He also wants people to know "there is no other" successor. Why else would he have said "You should know this very openly" if he didn't want this spread around.

 

Jadurani wrote a follow up which you have quoted. And if it were an isolated case where he says he knows Srila Prabhupada best then that would be one thing but that statement isn't an isolated case.

 

<hr>

 

[On Feb.12, 2002 about 300 devotees attended Appearance Day festival of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja. After performing elaborate arcana and puja of the guru-parampara, Srila Maharaja gave the following discourse on the sixth verse of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Sri Gurvastakam.]

<b>

Narayana Maharaja said:

 

We see in our guru-gayatri, 'krsnanandaya dhimahi'. This refers to both Krsna and Krsnaa. [spelled in Sanskrit, k-r-s-n-a with a long 'a' at the end.] Any male can serve Krsna, but no male can serve Krsnaa. Krsnaa is Radhika. Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krsna Conjugal.

 

[sripad Bhaktisar Maharaja:] And our Srila Prabhupada?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has "cheated" them all in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all. Rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya - he is always making tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Their meeting.

 

</b>

[Beggar]

There's a saying in America, "no publicity is bad publicity". You should know that by placing the Narayana Maharaja issue in so many posts, you and your cohorts are keeping it constantly in the minds of many devotees who are in different camps. I wouldn't be suprised that if it was possible to do research on this, you would find by constantly stiring the pot of this controversy the results are far more devotees opening up to Narayana Maharaja than those rejecting him. But although many are advising that you and your comrads give up Vaisnava aparadha its like pleading with moths not to fly into the fire. Its their nature.

[Guest guest]

 

remarks made by acharyas sometimes grow in the hearts and minds of the listeners, morphing into new entities or picking up unintended flavors...

 

if there is no explicit and direct explanation from the acharya on record, such statements must be seen in the light of shastric references, which are often extremely broad. shaktyavesa avatars are an enormously varied and complex category, with hundreds of shastric verses to consider. Thus we should not easily jump to conclusions.

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that I am saying that Prabhupada is Vishnu-tattva. I am not saying that he is God.

I am saying that he was shaktyavesha avatar and that shaktyavesha avatars are considered in shastra as incarnations of Godhead.

 

As an incarnation of Godhead, maybe Srila Prabhupada knew that he should establish his murti worship so that his devotees would not commit the offense of considering him an ordinary guru or an ordinary devotee.

 

Incarnations of Godhead should be worshipped in a class of their own above the ordinary gurus like most of his Godbrothers and his disciples that are trying to play the role of guru.

 

There should be some special regard and worship for incarnations of Godhead who come to distribute love of Godhead.

 

This is not saying that Prabhupada was God.

Saying he is God is to say he is Vishnu tattva and nobody is saying that.

[Guest guest]

 

There's a saying in America, "no publicity is bad publicity". You should know that by placing the Narayana Maharaja issue in so many posts, you and your cohorts are keeping it constantly in the minds of many devotees who are in different camps. I wouldn't be suprised that if it was possible to do research on this, you would find by constantly stiring the pot of this controversy the results are far more devotees opening up to Narayana Maharaja than those rejecting him. But although many are advising that you and your comrads give up Vaisnava aparadha its like pleading with moths not to fly into the fire. Its their nature.

 

That kind of reverse psychology might work on children, but we are not buying it here.

Exposing the outragious claims of Narayana Maharaja will more than likely help sincere devotees rather than lead them in the wrong direction.

[Guest guest]

 

Whether Narayana Maharaja said this four years ago or forty really doesn't matter.

 

Actually, it does. You try to make it appear that this is an ongoing message in his daily preaching, and that this is his point of emphasis, his ambition in life. Srila Narayana Maharaja knows full well that Iskcon will never embrace him nor accept him as a "successor." And even if by some strange fluke he were offered the position as "successor", he would, much to your surprise, decline such an invitation in a heartbeat. You have missed the gist of his statement entirely.

[Guest guest]

 

Actually, it does. You try to make it appear that this is an ongoing message in his daily preaching, and that this is his point of emphasis, his ambition in life. Srila Narayana Maharaja knows full well that Iskcon will never embrace him nor accept him as a "successor." And even if by some strange fluke he were offered the position as "successor", he would, much to your surprise, decline such an invitation in a heartbeat. You have missed the gist of his statement entirely.

 

A lot more has been missed in all this. But about the taking over of Iskcon, no one outside that institution wants such thing, period. Tripurari for example has said so many times, thanks but no thanks. Not that it is a bad institution, but outside of it most other gaudiyas know: Iskcon is the most uninformed and lacking in proper sidhanta of all. No offense, its just a fact. One has to leave the box to understand. All Iskcon's well rounded thinkers and progressive members have left or were kicked out. Why would anyone, once have expanded their vision, want to go back to square one? NM and others are just being kind and trying to help, thatsall.

[Guest guest]

 

Actually, it does. You try to make it appear that this is an ongoing message in his daily preaching, and that this is his point of emphasis, his ambition in life. Srila Narayana Maharaja knows full well that Iskcon will never embrace him nor accept him as a "successor." And even if by some strange fluke he were offered the position as "successor", he would, much to your surprise, decline such an invitation in a heartbeat. You have missed the gist of his statement entirely.

 

That really doesn't make good sense.

If Narayana Maharaja was not seeking to be the successor to Srila Prabhupada and would not accept the position if it was offered, then it is even more ridiculous that he would make that kind of outragious claim to be broadcast around the world.

 

Are you fellows habituated to preaching to children or idiots?

 

We are not children here. We have been around Krishna consciousness for over 30 years and have other life experience before that.

 

Talking to adults like they are stupid kids only shows your own lack of understanding about human nature.

[Guest guest]

 

A lot more has been missed in all this. But about the taking over of Iskcon, no one outside that institution wants such thing, period. Tripurari for example has said so many times, thanks but no thanks. Not that it is a bad institution, but outside of it most other gaudiyas know: Iskcon is the most uninformed and lacking in proper sidhanta of all. No offense, its just a fact. One has to leave the box to understand. All Iskcon's well rounded thinkers and progressive members have left or were kicked out. Why would anyone, once have expanded their vision, want to go back to square one? NM and others are just being kind and trying to help, thatsall.

 

All you are doing is showing your ass here.

 

There are hundreds of ISKCON devotees who could dance circles around you with siddhanta.

 

All you are showing is your ignorance of the many wonderful and glorious saints that are a part of ISKCON.

 

Go blabber your foolishness in the camp of those that will buy your foolish, uninformed and inexperienced viewpoints.

[Guest guest]

I might be a ritvik proponent, but when it comes to choosing between my ISKCON bretheren and the camp of Narayana Maharaja, I would choose ISKCON in a nanosecond.

[Guest guest]

 

That really doesn't make good sense.

If Narayana Maharaja was not seeking to be the successor to Srila Prabhupada and would not accept the position if it was offered, then it is even more ridiculous that he would make that kind of outragious claim to be broadcast around the world.

 

Are you fellows habituated to preaching to children or idiots?

 

We are not children here. We have been around Krishna consciousness for over 30 years and have other life experience before that.

 

Talking to adults like they are stupid kids only shows your own lack of understanding about human nature.

 

Well adults you may be, and experienced and all that. But, you got that one wrong. It happens. Obviously you are not as together as you like to think you are. Its ok to accept help - but you don't want it. Thats your misfortune.

[Guest guest]

 

Iskcon is the most uninformed and lacking in proper sidhanta of all.

 

You can't even spell siddhanta correctly and yet you presume to be more informed that ISKCON's top preachers.

 

This is actually quite hilarious..............

 

get a life.........................

[Guest guest]

 

more informed that ISKCON's.

 

This is actually quite hilarious..............

 

get a life.........................

 

Correction: more informed than. Than, not that....

[Guest guest]

 

Well adults you may be, and experienced and all that. But, you got that one wrong. It happens. Obviously you are not as together as you like to think you are. Its ok to accept help - but you don't want it. Thats your misfortune.

 

Wrong.

I look up to many Godbrothers, Godcousins etc.

 

I see many many sadhus around the Krishna consciousness movement and I worship them in my heart.

 

I just happen to reject ONE that teaches that he is the true successor to Srila Prabhupada in defiance of all of his own superiors who were the Godbrothers of his own spiritual master.

 

Some of the most senior sannyasis of the Gaudiya Matha have called him a sahajiya.

I am not going ignore their warnings.

[Guest guest]

 

You can't even spell siddhanta correctly and yet you presume to be more informed that ISKCON's top preachers.

 

This is actually quite hilarious..............

 

get a life.........................

 

What can I say, I stopped listening to those top preachers when they refused to accept the correct sidhanta which is that no one falls from Vaikuntha. Have they voted otherwise lately?

[Guest guest]

Let's not forget than while Narayana Maharaja was claiming to be the true successor to Srila Prabhupada there were still disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur such as BP Puri Maharaja and others whom Narayana Maharaja was claiming seniority over.

 

Let's get one thing straight.

 

One of Srila Prabhupada's senior Godbrothers would have been successor to him before Narayana Maharaja, coming back from a stint with the babajis at Radha kunda, would haved been.

 

Sridhar Maharaja was way more a likely successor to Srila Prabhupada than was Narayana Maharaja, but that never entered the mind of Narayana Maharaja to humble himself before one of the most recognized disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur who gave his own guru sannyasa.

[Guest guest]

 

What can I say, I stopped listening to those top preachers when they refused to accept the correct sidhanta which is that no one falls from Vaikuntha. Have they voted otherwise lately?

 

As long as the living entitiy has free will the possibility exists to fall from Vaikuntha.

Maybe it doesn't happen except for cases like Jaya and Vijaya, but as long as there is free will the possibility exists.

 

Impossible is a word in the fool's dictionary.

 

Srila Prabhupada quoted that on occasions.

[Beggar]

 

Sridhar Maharaja was way more a likely successor to Srila Prabhupada than was Narayana Maharaja, but that never entered the mind of Narayana Maharaja to humble himself before one of the most recognized disciples of Srila Saraswati Thakur who gave his own guru sannyasa.

Narayana Maharaja never gave Hare Nama or diksa until after the manifest lila of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This is not a coincidence and is a verifiable fact.

[Guest guest]

Narayana Maharaja never met Srila Sridhara Maharaja even once since since 1971. That is a verifiable fact.

[Guest guest]

 

Narayana Maharaja never gave Hare Nama or diksa until after the manifest lila of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This is not a coincidence and is a verifiable fact.

 

It hasn't been verified by no means and that still doesn't explain his claiming seniority over BP Puri Maharaja and some others who were senior to him.

[Guest guest]

 

As long as the living entitiy has free will the possibility exists to fall from Vaikuntha.

Maybe it doesn't happen except for cases like Jaya and Vijaya, but as long as there is free will the possibility exists.

 

Impossible is a word in the fool's dictionary.

 

Srila Prabhupada quoted that on occasions.

 

ok so the "sidhanta" now is that sometimes the jiva may fall. Back when I left it was everyone here fell no exceptions. No free will in those days.

........................

But lets lighten up:

 

Bhakta Vic: - "Why ritvik philosophy doesn't stick?"

Sidhanta das: - "Because they only use Pabhupadas Tape®."