Karma is useless.....(from past lives)

[Guest guest]

What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong.

 

there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes.

[Guest guest]

Well, it just shows the love and mercy that the Supreme Personality has for the Jivas.

 

If we were able to remember past actions and the consequences, we would then never be able to enjoy this material world. And since our choice was to enjoy in this world, the Lord takes away the rememberance of past lives, so the Jivas can continue enjoying this material world.

 

 

What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong.

 

there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes.

[Guest guest]

According to some esoteric traditions, the divine sparks are trapped in this world-matrix by dark and hostile forces. Call them archons, call them asuras, call them Reptilians. There is a force or beings that want to keep men in ignorance. Why do you think metaphysical information is so laughed at and scoffed at by the mainstream powers? because powerful forces want to keep men in ignorance of the metaphysical information that will make them want to seek liberation!

 

The majority of people in the world do not believe in reincarnation, because there is no memories of past lives and teaching of reincarnation has been hidden from the masses by religious forces (especially in the west) that do not want the people to know that is true. If they had a memory of a past life, they would see that they are stuck on the Wheel of Samsara, and the wise would realize the need to end this cycle of death and rebirth. But the masses (except in India) are not even given awareness that they are on this wheel, let alone the knowledge of how to get out of this cycle.

 

It seems the Matrix programmers do not want people to know about reincarnation, because they do not want them to seek moksha!

[theist]

 

What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong.

 

there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes.

 

What is presently held as memory and is accessible to our conscious mind is not even 1% of our real memory. Memory in this regard is not just a collection of facts from many many past lives. These memories in the form of deep impressions on the mind are what has formed our present living situations, mental patterns, fears and hopes and aspirations. We learn by being able to read this impressions and grow beyond them.

 

Beyond this the soul comes to understand that the whole material experience has been one bad trip, the details are no longer of any interest because we see it was all just a bad dream we mistook for reality and that the awakened Krsna consciousness platform of conscious experience is the only one worth thinking about.

 

Intellectually sifting through each individual material experience and evaluating each segment individually would be a collassal waste of time and practically speaking an impossiblity because from the intellectual platform only one would continue to implicate themselves in the material duality thus adding to what they needed to evaluate.

 

The truly intelligent will simply evaluate the whole material experience as a waste and then cultivate Krsna consciousness to replace that material experience with spiritual love for God.

 

Like Maharaja Yudhistira who never looked back once he desired to renounce the world of matter. He just did it.

[Guest guest]

 

Well, it just shows the love and mercy that the Supreme Personality has for the Jivas.

 

If we were able to remember past actions and the consequences, we would then never be able to enjoy this material world. And since our choice was to enjoy in this world, the Lord takes away the rememberance of past lives, so the Jivas can continue enjoying this material world.

 

Doesnt make sense at all,how can we enjoy our present lives if the GOD hasnt taken away the fruits of Karma,its like say u beat someone up and that someone was kind enough to make u forget that u beat that person up but wouldnt let it go and come up and beat u up when u least expect it and make u miserable.

If GOD was kind enough to make us forget of the past y not kind enough to wipe up the bad deeds?Truth is there is no answer for this good question,its a great question but answers r very vague and cooked up,did god tell u he was merciful to not remind of u the past deeds but still will punish u for it?

Which is better to let go of punishment or to make u forget it?Which is more merciful?Dont just cook up theories unless its told by god himself,which verse can u quote for this?

[theist]

 

Doesnt make sense at all,how can we enjoy our present lives if the GOD hasnt taken away the fruits of Karma,its like say u beat someone up and that someone was kind enough to make u forget that u beat that person up but wouldnt let it go and come up and beat u up when u least expect it and make u miserable.

If GOD was kind enough to make us forget of the past y not kind enough to wipe up the bad deeds?Truth is there is no answer for this good question,its a great question but answers r very vague and cooked up,did god tell u he was merciful to not remind of u the past deeds but still will punish u for it?

Which is better to let go of punishment or to make u forget it?Which is more merciful?Dont just cook up theories unless its told by god himself,which verse can u quote for this?

 

I agree with the quote you posted above. Krsna let's us go our own way if we so desire knowing that we will learn from our mistake and desire to come back to him. He has designed the material experience to teach us by our mistakes. As fools the best we can do is learn by our mistakes.

 

Somehow we made a wrong turn and came to wrong side of the river Viraja. This side of that river is the land of birth death old age and disease. And now we have become lost in this jungle.

 

God will cleanse us of our sinful natures by the power of His Holy name. He has hundreds and millions of such names. Whatever name that indicates the Supreme Person and attracts you please chant that name and pray for mercy

 

Don't search for reasons why God cannot save you. Look instead for the salvation.

[Guest guest]

 

Doesnt make sense at all,how can we enjoy our present lives if the GOD hasnt taken away the fruits of Karma,its like say u beat someone up and that someone was kind enough to make u forget that u beat that person up but wouldnt let it go and come up and beat u up when u least expect it and make u miserable.

If GOD was kind enough to make us forget of the past y not kind enough to wipe up the bad deeds?Truth is there is no answer for this good question,its a great question but answers r very vague and cooked up,did god tell u he was merciful to not remind of u the past deeds but still will punish u for it?

Which is better to let go of punishment or to make u forget it?Which is more merciful?Dont just cook up theories unless its told by god himself,which verse can u quote for this?

 

Supposedly, we can remember our past lives, but they are embedded deep in our subconscious, deep in our psyche.

 

Even events that occur in this life leave a lasting impression on you in this life, yet we may not even remember the event ever occurring consciously. We may have simply blocked it out because the memory of that event is too painful to deal with. We can never run away from that pain, as it affects us, whether it's in our conscious or subconscious parts of the psyche. Those painful events that even occur in this life are embedded deep within the psyche, just like the past lives. And this does make sense, if you really think about it.

[Guest guest]

back to my point.....so what's the use if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

Thats like watching your child make a mistake, and then spanking them 10 years later at any time you feel you want to.

 

Is it YOUR MERCY upon the child that you don't tell him/her why he is being spanked? Is the child supposed to be greatful and inspired to liberate him/herself from this material life...NO

 

What will keep the child from making the same mistake again?

 

We see all of these people who are born crippled, missing limbs, blind, deaf, etc....FOR WHAT?

 

I've seen devotees whose children are born with mental retardation and physical deformities....while children of meat eaters and athiests are born healthy as can be....WHERE IS KRISHNA'S MERCY HERE ?

 

Some one give me proof from the scriptures why sinners prosper and the innocent are suffering.....

 

We are NOT ALLOWED to remember.....its not that we can't BEAR to remember.

 

I'm sure the cripple wants to know why he is suffering....while the meat eater is enjoying his sinful activities he doesn't think even once oh why do I have such a wonderful life?

[Beggar]

 

back to my point.....so what's the use if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

Thats like watching your child make a mistake, and then spanking them 10 years later at any time you feel you want to.

 

Is it YOUR MERCY upon the child that you don't tell him/her why he is being spanked? Is the child supposed to be greatful and inspired to liberate him/herself from this material life...NO

 

What will keep the child from making the same mistake again?

 

We see all of these people who are born crippled, missing limbs, blind, deaf, etc....FOR WHAT?

 

I've seen devotees whose children are born with mental retardation and physical deformities....while children of meat eaters and athiests are born healthy as can be....WHERE IS KRISHNA'S MERCY HERE ?

 

Some one give me proof from the scriptures why sinners prosper and the innocent are suffering.....

 

We are NOT ALLOWED to remember.....its not that we can't BEAR to remember.

 

I'm sure the cripple wants to know why he is suffering....while the meat eater is enjoying his sinful activities he doesn't think even once oh why do I have such a wonderful life?

Many who became devotees especially Westerners had the same outlook before coming into contact with Vedic and Vedantic thought. Many were in that position right up to the point of reading Bhagavad Gita As It IS. But upon reading Prabhupada's books their whole paradigm was turned upside down. Only offenses at the feet of devotees can again turn that paradigm 180 degrees opposite. The real answer in within you. Chant, pray alot and try to get some good association.

[Guest guest]

i chant...go to the temple regularly.....i'm just fed up with this excuse of KARMA.

 

it's just a pretty way of saying......GOD IS NOT ALL MERCIFUL.

 

Afterall, if we could remember we would be able to correct future actions....but if this were to happen...then GOD would not be able to enjoy watching us stumble around in the dark.

 

So give me the proof in scriptures why innocent suffer without knowing the cause of their suffering....and don't say that we should be tolerant and accept our suffering as a gift from Krishna.....if the sinners can enjoy then so should the devotees.

 

And don't think I mean enjoyment as in: eating meat, illicit sex, gambling

these things are not enjoyment.

 

I mean the enjoyment of having a healthy child, or the enjoyment of being free from disease.

[Guest guest]

I think the idea of karma can be both good or bad. If we view it as a sort of version of the golden rule "do unto others as you would have done to you" then it can be a progressive force for good. In this case we say "Everything you do in this world will come back to you so you should do what is right." Its not a great philosophy because it is based on a sort of selfishness to do what is right. Where as the golden rule is more of a commandment - Do! Do Good!

 

However, karma usually ends up being a sentimental mechanistic tool of judgment that keeps the powerful in positions of power. A sentimentalist is one who is moved by mere associations. They have developed a formula for life and fit everything into this formula. If you add certain inputs you always get a certain predefined output. There is no freewill in this situation. One becomes less human by viewing the world as a formula.

 

This happens practically all the time. A child is abused. We are told the child was suffering the reactions of his past sins. There are several elements wrong here:

 

Factually we know the child was abused. However, when someone makes the judgment that "they are suffering the reactions of their past sins" they are simply being sentimentalists. They are simply drawing conclusions based on associations. This can be proven very easily. Simply ask the person making this conclusion to SPECIFICALLY list the exact sins of the child that was committed in a prior life, to whom they were committed, and when they were committed. The person who says this won't be able to give anything but a vague generality of how "it must be".

 

Now I have no problem in believing that certain parts of life are fixed and certain parts of life are happenstance. That seems fairly logical to me. God has set up in motion that the planets revolve in a certain order. And I can set my clock based on the rising and setting of the sun. But if I believe everything has been fixed then there is no such thing as free will. I am simply a clock that has been wound up.

 

Suppose I am talking to the person who says the child that was abused was suffering the reactions of his past sins. Suppose I then decide to beat the hell out of this person. It wasn't his karma that he was beaten. It was my free will to beat this person. It could have happened or didn't have to happen. The future was not fixed at that moment, I made that decision. Unless this free will exists, the chance that some bad things happen that aren't preordained, some times things that are random just happen. Without that we simply become mechanistic robots. We end up being just chemicals that move. To be a human means to have a free soul.

 

So how to view karma? View it as a way of judging YOURSELF. Approach life at all times knowing that you must deal with life as living entities not to be exploited. But when bad things happen to others DO NOT JUDGE THEM. When you say "So and so is suffering for their sins." You are assuming you know the mind of God. You think you know the way the world works, and if you get a certain output it MUST BE because of a certain input. However, that is not true. Life is not a machine. Life is not a formula. It is the interaction of living, free wills that interact with one another. Accept karma for yourself and leave off thinking you know the mind of God.

[Guest guest]

I'm not saying I understand how God works.....I just want to know why good things happen to bad people and vice versa....I WANT EVIDENCE of WHY we are not allowed to remember.

 

and NO....nothing can be RANDOM....there has to be an input for an output

 

How do you explain randomness after reading this ?????

 

isvarah paramah krsnah

sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah

sarva-karana-karanam

 

["Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the PRIME CAUSE OF ALL CAUSES. (Brahma-samhita 5.1)]

 

 

so he is the cause of happiness and distress....

 

explain

[renuka]

 

I think the idea of karma can be both good or bad. If we view it as a sort of version of the golden rule "do unto others as you would have done to you" then it can be a progressive force for good. In this case we say "Everything you do in this world will come back to you so you should do what is right." Its not a great philosophy because it is based on a sort of selfishness to do what is right. Where as the golden rule is more of a commandment - Do! Do Good!

 

However, karma usually ends up being a sentimental mechanistic tool of judgment that keeps the powerful in positions of power. A sentimentalist is one who is moved by mere associations. They have developed a formula for life and fit everything into this formula. If you add certain inputs you always get a certain predefined output. There is no freewill in this situation. One becomes less human by viewing the world as a formula.

 

This happens practically all the time. A child is abused. We are told the child was suffering the reactions of his past sins. There are several elements wrong here:

 

Factually we know the child was abused. However, when someone makes the judgment that "they are suffering the reactions of their past sins" they are simply being sentimentalists. They are simply drawing conclusions based on associations. This can be proven very easily. Simply ask the person making this conclusion to SPECIFICALLY list the exact sins of the child that was committed in a prior life, to whom they were committed, and when they were committed. The person who says this won't be able to give anything but a vague generality of how "it must be".

 

Now I have no problem in believing that certain parts of life are fixed and certain parts of life are happenstance. That seems fairly logical to me. God has set up in motion that the planets revolve in a certain order. And I can set my clock based on the rising and setting of the sun. But if I believe everything has been fixed then there is no such thing as free will. I am simply a clock that has been wound up.

 

Suppose I am talking to the person who says the child that was abused was suffering the reactions of his past sins. Suppose I then decide to beat the hell out of this person. It wasn't his karma that he was beaten. It was my free will to beat this person. It could have happened or didn't have to happen. The future was not fixed at that moment, I made that decision. Unless this free will exists, the chance that some bad things happen that aren't preordained, some times things that are random just happen. Without that we simply become mechanistic robots. We end up being just chemicals that move. To be a human means to have a free soul.

 

So how to view karma? View it as a way of judging YOURSELF. Approach life at all times knowing that you must deal with life as living entities not to be exploited. But when bad things happen to others DO NOT JUDGE THEM. When you say "So and so is suffering for their sins." You are assuming you know the mind of God. You think you know the way the world works, and if you get a certain output it MUST BE because of a certain input. However, that is not true. Life is not a machine. Life is not a formula. It is the interaction of living, free wills that interact with one another. Accept karma for yourself and leave off thinking you know the mind of God.

 

One needs to take a holistic view in understanding karma. Karma is a universal reality. One cannot customize it according to one's whims and fancies. Every action has its equal and opposite reaction, whether you do it knowingly or unknowingly. That is why this earth planet is called karma Bhoomi.

 

Karma and Freewill work like the following anology. The jiva is like a cow tied to a pole with a six meter rope. As per its karma, the jiva is restricted to the six meter circumference around the pole. However, the cow by using its freewill can go around carefully and graze in the permitted space or it can entangle itself and reduce its grazing area.

 

So it is no doubt a perfect arrangment by the Lord to make us accountable for what we do. On the other hand at any given moment you could choose to get out of this karmic cycle by embracing devotional service which is beyond karmic reactions. Fair deal!

[Guest guest]

THATS MY POINT.....ITS NOT FAIR

 

forget everything else....and someone give me the answer to this question :

 

WHY AREN'T WE ALLOWED TO REMEMBER OUR MISTAKES ?

 

why aren't we allowed to know the reason for being "tied to the pole" ?

 

The cow has no free will whatsoever....he has to remain tied to the pole...he is fooled into thinking he has freewill...just like all other jivas.

 

It's just like a king/dictator....he lets his subjects do things, but only under limits....this is not free will.

[Guest guest]

This world is a prison house. First you must accept that fact. You do have free will to get out of this hell-hole. Otherwise, you are bound by the rules here. The rules are fair. Play by the rules, and likely you will be a 1st class prisoner, living in the heavenly planets.

 

In previous yugas, the kings meted out justice based on Manu-samhita, so usually your mistakes were paid for swiftly, in the same lifetime. In Kali yuga, things are a bit different. It may not seem fair, but we put ourselves into this situation. Memories are short in this age. Still, past impressions are there. And again, this is a prison house. And sometimes, while in prison, solitary confinement is called for, so that you won't disturb the other prisoners. You may disagree with the rules, but that is due to lack of intellegence. And that lack of intelligence is due to misuse of your intelligence in previous lifetimes. It's a vicious cycle, eh? On the bright side, there is a way out of this mess.

[Beggar]

 

THATS MY POINT.....ITS NOT FAIR

 

forget everything else....and someone give me the answer to this question :

 

WHY AREN'T WE ALLOWED TO REMEMBER OUR MISTAKES ?

 

why aren't we allowed to know the reason for being "tied to the pole" ?

 

The cow has no free will whatsoever....he has to remain tied to the pole...he is fooled into thinking he has freewill...just like all other jivas.

 

It's just like a king/dictator....he lets his subjects do things, but only under limits....this is not free will.

Srila Bhakti Rakshak

Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja

Autocrat, Despot, and Liar

The Krishna Conception of Divinity

 

God is not a constitutional king, but He is an autocrat. To work for an autocrat is the highest conception of sacrifice. What degree of selflessness and courage is required to work for an autocrat, a despot, a liar who is up to anything? Not only that, His normal position is such. It is not a temporary temperament, but His eternal inner nature. Krishna is an autocrat because law emanates from Him. An autocrat is above law. When there are many, there is a need for law; when there is only one, there is no need for law. Krishna is a despot, but He is absolute good. If there is any check in His despotism, the world will be the loser. Goodness must have its full flow. Is that bad? Can there be any objection to this? Goodness must have its freedom to flow anywhere and everywhere. If we say that God is absolute good, then what do we lose by giving Him autocracy? Should autocracy be with the ignorant and the fools? No. The absolute good must have full autocracy. Not that law will go to bind His hands. Then we will be losers. And Krishna is a liar, to entice us, because we cannot understand the whole truth. So to entice us to gradually come to the truth, He has become a liar.

 

The first thing to understand is that He is all goodness, so everything emanating from Him cannot but be good. Any defect is on our side. We are encroachers. He is not an encroacher. But He shows this as His play, Lila. Everything belongs to Him, so there is no lying. When He says, "Let there be light," there was light: "Let there be water," there was water. If He has such potential power, can there be any lying there? We have to sacrifice ourselves for Krishna, because He is the absolute good, beauty, and love. Faith and selflessness are required to such a high degree. If we accept Krishna consciousness as our highest ideal, then so much sacrifice is necessary, but sacrifice means life: "Die to live." There is no loss by sacrifice. We can only gain by giving ourselves.

[krishnadasa]

Good question !!

this question has bogged my mind so many times and indeed I have aksed this question directly to the Lord of my heart so evrytime , and I got the same answer as follows

 

" Dear I think you are lukcy, because inquring about such things will take more near to Krishna and more away from this material world. Not everyone is blessed to think in this way":smash:

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Lack of consciousness means misconception, disease: This is described in Srimad-Bhagavatam: bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad - the disease is separate interest. The deviation from our normal spiritual condition, the development of misconception, is based on the charm - the prospect - of separate interest. That is the root cause of all misunderstanding. The conception of local, provincial interest has caused the difference between a proper conception of reality and misconception. We have gone away from the central conception. From universal consciousness we have come to this provincial plane. And according to the gradation of consciousness in its development from provincial to universal, we may find ourselves in so many different planets or planes of existence: bhur, bhuvah, svah, jana, mahar, tapa, satya, all these different stages of development are involved in this process of provincialism and universalism. But loss of consciousness of the center is the root of this entire material existence.

One who is conscious of the organic whole, on the other hand, is in the most healthy position. That is proper adjustment, and maladjustment is the cause of our present diseased condition. Adjustment is life; it is liberated life, and to be the prey of maladjustment is to approach pain and misery. Everything within the environment is all right; the only difficulty is found in the conception of selfish special interest. Our aversion to the universal interest is the cause of our detachment from the conception of the whole and from happiness and health. We have been deprived of the happiness of our healthy position, and the cause is selfish interest.

The Absolute Autocrat is absolute good. So there is no room for complaint against him. Krsna says: suhrdam sarva-bhutanam. He is the owner of everything - in comparison, we are nothing. But still, He is our friend. We should not forget that. We are represented in Him. Our detachment from Him is the cause of all the miseries that we are suffering. We and others like us have lost faith in Him, but He is our friend. We are jealous of Him and are thinking, 'I am not the master? Someone else is the master - this is intolerable. No taxation without representation!' But our interests are well-represented in Krsna. He cares about us even more than we can conceive. Why do we forget that?

If we only reinstate ourselves in that faith, we will be all right. It is our fault that we are suffering; otherwise there is no difference in vision from the universal standpoint. Isad apetasya, we have turned away from our master. But we should remember that He is our master, He is our well-wisher, He is our guardian. Deviation from that consciousness is misery of an infinite magnitude. Its cause is very subtle and very minute; it is our mentality of separate interest. And as a result, we have been captured by the enemy camp.

Patanjali has said we are moving towards evil in an intelligent, organized way. That is not only mad but wicked; it is worse than mad, according to Patanjali. What will be the relief of a soul in such a deplorable condition? A madman is in possession of everything - he is only out of his mind. His consciousness has to be adjusted properly. Then he will find, "Oh, everything is all right - let me go back home.'' At present his consciousness is cast aside. He is not at home; his consciousness must be pushed homeward. That is the problem. Our Guru Maharaja used to say, "I don't admit any famine in this world - only that of a lack of Krsna consciousness, jagate eka matra hari-katha-durviksa chada ara kona durviksa nai." Whenever he became excited, he used to use this _expression. He would say: "From door to door tell everyone, 'Krsna is the Supreme, you are all servants of Krsna.' Remind everyone of this, from door to door. Then they will find, 'Oh, I have everything I need. I am krsnadasa, a servant of Krsna. I must connect with Krsna.' That link must be supplied, and then everything will be all right. There is no dearth of anything else. There is no real misery, except that we have forgotten Krsna, our Lord. That is the only point we must push. This is the universal necessity. I don't admit any necessity besides this." Within this world there is always a fire burning; but there is no necessity of extinguishing the fire, because we have nothing to do with the world that will be burned into ashes by the fire. All our inner demands can be met only in connection with Krsna. All other things are unnecessary. They may be burned into ashes or devoured by flood. We have no real concern with any of those things. Rather, those material attachments are dragging us back towards the wrong thing. And as a result, we can't allow our mind to be attracted to Krsna. The things of this world, or attachments, are all negative; these things are all our enemy. The whole universe may be burned to ashes, but we will not be affected in any way. The world may be devastated - the Earth, the sun, the moon, the stars - everything may vanish, but still we remain. The soul is eternal. And if we can have a connection with Krsna, the things of this world are all unnecessary for us and for everyone else. Why should we come to live in the mortal world, erroneously identifying ourselves with flesh and blood? We only think that we are being born and dying. But it is a false notion. Everything is conscious. And when we realize it fully, we shall be fixed in the svarupa-sakti domain in the spiritual world. There, the different living beings may pose as matter, as the Yamuna, as water, as creepers, as trees, but they are all conscious units simply posing in different ways.

[Guest guest]

See this is the reason why i'm loosing faith in KC....NO ONE IS GIVING ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER.

 

you are all running around and dodging the question: WHY ARE WE NOT ALLOWED TO REMEMBER ?

 

I WANT PROOF from the scriptures....not because Srila Sridhar Maharaj says , "Our detachment from Him is the cause of all the miseries that we are suffering."

 

this does not prove anything.....WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL CAUSE of our detachment ?

 

Imagine a murderer who feels guilty about his crime.....the judge will sentence him to life imprisonment after NOTIFYING him of his charge. NOW.....the murderer knows why he is going to go to prison....he has now LEARNED....I SHOULD NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE AGAIN.

 

SO.....give me the evidence of why Krishna doesn't allow us to learn from our mistakes. I understand that at some point in time we wanted to enjoy away from Krishna, but we should be able to remember this incidence.

 

It's not fair to throw a random person in jail and say...oh don't worry its from your KARMA....then just walk away.

 

And don't give me that junk about how we can't remember in KALI due to our material condition..... THIS PROVES THAT KRISHNA IS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE FORGETFULNESS.....WE DID NOT CHOOSE TO FORGET.

 

sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdi sanniviṣṭo

mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaḿ ca

vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

vedānta-kṛd veda-vid eva cāham

 

I am seated in everyone's heart, and FROM ME COME REMEMBRANCE, KNOWLEDGE AND FORGETFULNESS. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

 

 

-explain

[Beggar]

 

I WANT PROOF from the scriptures....not because Srila Sridhar Maharaj says , "Our detachment from Him is the cause of all the miseries that we are suffering."

 

this does not prove anything.....WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL CAUSE of our detachment ?

 

 

 

Commentary

by Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja

 

How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information.

There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha . Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.

The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world. They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

 

<CENTER>iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa </CENTER>

 

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the

jiva:

hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."

 

At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.

Why has the soul come to the world of exploitation" and not the world of dedication? That should be attributed to his innate nature, which is endowed with free will. It is a free choice. This is substantiated in the Bhagavad-gita (5. 14):

 

<CENTER>na kartrtvam na karmani

lokasya srjati prabhuh

na karma-phala-samyogam

svabhavas tu pravartate </CENTER>

 

"The soul is responsible for his entrance into the land of exploitation."

 

The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and consciousness means endowed with freedom. Because the soul is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world. So, the responsibility is with the individual soul.

Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Cakravarti, asked our spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, "Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva ?" Prabhupada told him, ""You are fighting for freedom. Don't you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter." Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ""We want freedom."' They replied, "You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you." But finally, he told them, "We want the freedom to do wrong." So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong.

Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite" our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate" and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks" the species have been divided" from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved."

 

______________________________

 

Additional information for our readers: (In the beginning of his reply to the question as to how the soul first appears in the material world, Srila Sridhar Maharaja mentions that this requires some background. Similiarly, before some of our readers can accept Srila Sridhar Maharaja's above statements as being important guidance for ISKCON in the matter of philosopy we would like to give some background information.

 

Shortly before departing from this world our spiritual master, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada instructed his disciples, that if they had any questions regarding philosophy they should approach his Godbrother, Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja. "For philosophy you may go to my Godbrother, Sridhar Maharaja at Navadwip.) This has been amply documented in "

Our Affectionate Guardians

."

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

See this is the reason why i'm loosing faith in KC....NO ONE IS GIVING ME A STRAIGHT ANSWER.

 

you are all running around and dodging the question: WHY ARE WE NOT ALLOWED TO REMEMBER ?

 

I've seen some pretty decent replies. The first thing is, you need to try inquire submissively. Your present attitude is not conducive towards understanding spiritual topics. It's not the devotees who are causing you to lose faith, it's your mind.

 

If we were able to remember our past lives, we would not be able to concentrate on our present lives. We would be remembering previous loved ones, (who may still be alive), past joys and sorrows, intense physical traumas... surely you get the picture: we'd be totally psychotic and unable to deal with the present reality.

 

When a devotee experiences some type of misery, he doesn't need to know exactly what caused it. He has faith that he did something wrong, and with humility, he tolerates any suffering that may come, and continues on in devotional service. In Srila Prabhupada's NOD, it is said that by this humble attitude, one attains the Kingdom of God.

 

If you have studied sastra at all, then surely you have a pretty good idea what types of activities create negative karmic reactions. Even just using old-fashioned common sense, let's say you have a spouse who is always creating problems for you, who seems to enjoy tormenting you and making your life a living hell. Isn't it logical to conclude that most likely, in a previous life, you treated a former spouse in the same manner? Is it really necessary to know all the specifics and graphic details?

 

A little faith is required from our side. Throwing temper tantrums and pointing fingers at God is not the answer. Take one step towards Him, and He will take ten steps towards you. Give Him just a small drop of your faith, (losing the 'tude), and He will most assuredly reciprocate more than you could ever imagine.

[gHari]

What do we learn from 'bad' karma or 'good' for that matter? We learn that it hurts, it sucks getting killed. We learn that it sucks to be blind. We learn many things which are retained as impressions (samskaras?) in the subtle body.

 

These impressions make up our false ego character, our conditioned nature. That is why one person acts one way and another another way - the gestalt of countless impressions acquired from time immemorial.

 

It's not really about being punished, although it often appears like that - it's about learning things that will change our nature as required. Our bad action shows our lack, and the karmic lesson will teach us what we need to understand in order to behave more appropriately. Now that I know that it sucks to be killed, maybe that impression will overpower the killing 'instinct' I've developed as I rose through the 8,000,000.non-human species.

 

We should not get all huffy thinking we should be able to understand it all, and if we can't in our stripped-down abridged rudimentary understanding of it all resolve every apparent paradox, we should not reject scripture, guru and saintly mahatmas in favour of our brilliant brains. There will be a lesson required for that oversight as well no doubt.

 

The good words: http://vedabase.net/noi/8/en

[Guest guest]

"Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha . Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers."

 

 

FUNNY....I CAN'T REMEMBER THE TIME I was stuck in the Brahmajyoti and I CHOSE to BE APART from Krishna.

 

AND what is this CAUSE that " equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins" ???

 

I DON'T REMEMBER being disturbed and then starting to think " Oh I want to enjoy apart from Krishna...."

 

AND I WANT PROOF that says " YOU WOULD BE PSYCHOTIC if you could remember all past lives"........I DONT REMEMBER being given the option to remember my past lives.

 

 

Up to this point in my life I was very devoted to KC....i went along with the whole Karma thing and took everything as it came. At all times I forced myself to accept sufferings as a result of MY KARMA. But a recent incident as broken this consciousness:

 

--------------------------- I know to very good devotees. They have been married for quite some time now. They devote all of their time to serving the temple. Cooking, cleaning, diety worship, preaching, distrib. books etc. They help anyone in need no matter the time or the place.

 

They just had a child......that child was born with Cerebral Palsy....he is paralyzed on the left side of his body, and on top of that, he is blind. The father mentioned to me once in a state of distress....." I guess Krishna wants it this way"

 

NOW....we recently had a ratha yatra festival. There were tents setup where people can come to learn about KC, Gita, birth/death etc.

 

I was standing near a tent with the blind baby's father....and a young "typical" western couple came up. The women was holding young toddler in her arms.

 

We said hello and asked how old their child was. The women said he was 3 1/2 and that they wandered over becuase the child had pointed to the bright yellow tents. I then asked if they had some questions.....the man said,

 

"you know you are disobeying God's will by being vegetarian...it's a sin"

So I say please just take a look around some more and maybe you'll see our point. the man replied "I don't need to hear this hippy, mystical S**T "

then they left.

 

 

 

SO..........i had a small realization. Here is a couple who clearly enjoys meat eating and whatever else. They have never chanted the name of Krishna, but THEY HAVE A NICE HEALTHY CHILD.

 

On the other hand....here are my devotee friends....who devote their lives to serving Krishna, AND THEIR CHILD IS BORN WITH THESE AILMENTS.

 

NOW TELL ME....WHERE IS KRISHNA'S MERCY and WHAT IS THE REASON WHY THIS CHILD IS BORN BLIND AND PARALYZED even when his parents have full dependce on KRishna?

 

KRISHNA HAS TAKEN ADVANTAGE of his devotees love for him....He has punished them even while they love him so much.

 

SOMEONE GIVE ME SASTRIC EVIDENCE......NOT a PURPORT.....I WANT THE VERSE THAT SAYS : I DON'T WANT YOU TO REMEMBER YOUR PAST MISTAKES BEACUSE...........................................................

[gHari]

That attitude is distancing you from Krsna and His devotees, as you enter the garden like a raging elephant, demanding answers but not listening as you shout and shout out of control. The soul born unhealthy is fortunate to have devotee parents. Devotees do not have children to enjoy them. Krsna's apparent bitter-sweet mercy for the child jiva soul and its parents certainly appears a mystery.

 

Why has it become inconvenient for the parents? Why have they been given the responsibility to raise that child? Why is the child to live a unique human life?

 

You want answers? Quiet that mind, humble that mind, and give Krsna a chance to reveal them. Right now the mind is filled with "ME, ME, ME" with no room for Him to implant a thought, buddhi-yogam.

[Guest guest]

exactly what I thought...STILL NO EVIDENCE.

 

just the same " oh its Krishna's mercy, its a mystery, a secret plan, a hidden blessing"

 

Just to let you in on my secret.....this unhealthy child I wrote of....this happened 5 YEARS AGO. Since then the devotees have been not able to support themselves due to the physical therapy and treatments that their child has needed...the child has been diagnosed with meningitis.....The mother has also developed ovarian cancer since then, and they have very little money... STILL THEY COME TO THE TEMPLE DAY AFTER DAY to mop the floors and dress the dieties early in the morning, and cook some prasadam for afternoon bhoga.

 

SOME PLAN......MERCIFUL.....IT's A GOOD THING THAT THEY DON'T KNOW THE CAUSE OF THEIR SUFFERING.....afterall, IT MIGHT MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO SEE WHY THEY DESERVE THIS.

 

I guess the christian church on the next street over is doing just fine after they have their regular sunday BARBECUE picnic.

 

STILL WAITING FOR SASTRIC EVIDENCE......someone go ask one of your guru's.