Karma is useless.....(from past lives)

[Guest guest]

I'm a bit puzzled as to your ultimate ideal in life? Material prosperity or developing Krsna Consciousness?

 

 

SO..........i had a small realization. Here is a couple who clearly enjoys meat eating and whatever else. They have never chanted the name of Krishna, but THEY HAVE A NICE HEALTHY CHILD.

 

But, for how long? Everything is temporary in this world. Eventually the parents will be separated from their offspring forever, and then they will have to face the consequences of their meat-eating and other sinful activities.

 

 

On the other hand....here are my devotee friends....who devote their lives to serving Krishna, AND THEIR CHILD IS BORN WITH THESE AILMENTS.

 

And this child will accumulate sukriti by having devotee parents and hearing the holy names, while the parents will acquire further sukriti themselves by caring for this helpless devotee child. Win/win.

[Guest guest]

 

STILL WAITING FOR SASTRIC EVIDENCE......someone go ask one of your guru's.

 

Is that an order?

[Guest guest]

you sound like a christian in disguise! Those christian meat eaters will pay for their sins, eventually. Who's to say you'll be there to witness. If they don't recieve coronary heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, or some other type of medical disorder, then they pay for their sins in their next life!

 

Question: Why are you so concerned about meat eaters, is this really what your whole complain is about?

 

Also have you ever stop and thought that maybe you spent some yrs. in purgatory(hell) being clensed of your sins! And you are not currently paying for past life sins. Maybe you're only paying for the sin you recieve in your current incarnation?

 

Also, don't you remember that a human birth is rare! You could've been a sunflower or a cat in your past life, NOT REALLY MUCH TO REMEMBER, DON'T YOU THINK?

 

Does that help, I have this feeling that you'll never be satisfied, I'm done!

[gHari]

Are all unhealthy babies born to Krsna devotees? Are all devotee children born unhealthy? Is the mind that is harrassing this poster totally stupid? Does that mind really want to remember being ripped apart over and over again when it became food for another animal, to remember all the terror of the animal kingdom? Does that mind really think that it can consciously sift through eons of impressions to decide how to act moment to moment? Does that mind really think that because a handful of people on the net do not know every line of scripture that they can conclude that Prabhupada's purports are based on lies? Does that mind really think it deserves answers as it grabs God by the scruff of the neck and yells "Explain Yourself, or else!" ? Or else what?

[theist]

This guy is too irrational to have a conversation with.

 

Believe what you like. Yeah, you are right, Krsna is cruel and mean and he gets fun picking on people. So you may as well just rot in the material world forever.

 

Next time you go somewhere for a conversation don't forget your ears.

[Beggar]

 

"KRISHNA HAS TAKEN ADVANTAGE of his devotees love for him....He has punished them even while they love him so much.

 

Hey, this birth, death, disease (cerebral palsey etc.) and old age is nothing compared to what that black Krsna did to the inhabitants of Vrndavana. He performed so many loving pastime with the gopas and gopis of all ages and then left with Akrura to go to Mathura and kill King Kamsa. He swore up and down that He would be back in a short time but never returned. Think about it and you can really get peeved! Not only that but he sent Balarama, and then His friend Uddhava with all kinds of false promises that He would return. To make matters worse Uddhava had the same bodily complexion as Krsna. When Uddhava arrived in Vrndavana Mother Yashoda and Srimati Radharani appeared to be near death.

In the Brhat-bhagavatamrta it is said that Sri Narada Muni has gone to Dvaraka, via the celestial skyways, in his search to establish the glory of the greatest recipients of Lord Krsna's mercy – the gopis of Vrndavana. There in Dvaraka, he instigated a discussion between Krsna's associates, and in the course of the discussion there was a consideration of the possibility of Krsna returning to Vrndavana. The following is a continuation of that discussion given in a class by Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

Baladeva Prabhu has been hearing the conclusions of Rohini Maiya – who had been describing the separation of the cows in Sri Vrndavana.

Baladeva Prabhu added, "What to speak of the cows in Vrndavana; due to separation from Krsna, even the deer, does, cuckoos, birds, beasts, trees in Bhandiravana and elsewhere, creepers and blades of grass have all become completely dried up.

"Day by day, all the mountains, such as Sri Giriraja Govardhana, become increasingly lean due to their grief in separation, and gradually they are disappearing into the ground. Giriraja Govardhana was more than one mile high, and now it is entering into the ground and disappearing."

"This is the condition of the Vrajavasis since Krsna went to Mathura and then Dvaraka. If the trees, creepers, animals and mountains are in this condition, what will be the condition of the gopis of Vrndavana? Even the river Yamuna has dried up. Now it has become like a thin stream. In Krsna's absence the peacocks no longer dance and the bumblebees no longer take honey from the flowers."

Baladeva Prabhu then told Sri Krsna, "For the sake of the Vrajavasis, gopas and gopis, You must return to Vrndavana. The only reason they remain alive is that they remember your promise and think, 'Krsna is satyasankalpa; He always speaks the truth. So He will certainly return.' Only with this hope do they stay alive – just about stay alive. "But for how long can they remain alive? If You don't go at once to Vrndavana and give mercy to the Vrajavasis, Yamaraja will give his mercy – which means that they must give up their lives. Krsna, You must return to Vrndavana. Automatically, by meeting with You, the Vrajavasis' grief of separation will go away. There is no other way.

"The poison of Kaliya was so strong that it killed all the birds, and many of the Vrajavasis became unconscious. You delivered them from this, so won't You deliver them from this present pain of separation? They cannot give up their life by jumping from Giriraja Govardhana, because Govardhana has become too small. The Vrajavasis stay alive by uttering Your name – even in a negative way, by making statements like, 'Krsna is so cruel.' They are always absorbed in krsna-katha." This means that discussions about Krsna and His name are amrita (nectar) and makes one immortal (amrita).

tava kathamrtam tapta-jivanam

kavibhir iditam kalmasapaham

sravana-mangalam srimad atatam

bhuvi grnanti ye bhuri-da janah

["The nectar of Your words and the descriptions of Your activities are the life and soul of those suffering in this material world. These narrations, transmitted by learned sages, eradicate one's sinful reactions and bestow good fortune upon whoever hears them. These narrations are broadcast all over the world and are filled with spiritual power. Certainly those who spread the message of Godhead are most munificent." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.31.9)]

Sri Baladeva continued, "All the Vrajavasis have given up eating, drinking and speaking with their family members or anyone else. They only call out the name, "Krsna! Krsna! Oh Krsna, when will You come back to Vrndavana?"

Hearing this, Lord Sri Krsna felt intense pain – because His heart is softer than butter and He cannot tolerate the pain of others. He cried loudly and He kept His arms around the neck of Baladeva Prabhu, embracing him. Tears flowed from His eyes like the flow of Ganga and Yamuna. He began to roll on the ground, fainted and became unconscious.

Rohini-maiya, Devaki, Rukmini, Satyabhama and all the ladies in the innermost chamber of the palace, and all the male members present, could not keep their patience for another moment. They all broke down crying and felt so much pain of separation that there was nobody left to console them.

At that time, from Bramhaloka, Catur-mukha (four faced) Lord Brahma saw what was going on. He therefore came along with his associates, various Vedas in the form of demigods, and arrived in Dvaraka.

Now, seeing the condition of Sri Krsna, Brahmaji became bewildered and was about to weep. He thought, "By the influence of maya, Lord Krsna’s illusory energy, anyone may become bewildered; but how can Krsna Himself become bewildered?" He wondered, "What is Krsna's inner desire?" He then understood that Lord Krsna wanted to show the entire universe the greatest recipients of His mercy. The gopis, and among them Srimati Radhika, are the greatest recipients.

Brahma saw that all had fainted. Garuda was weeping and also about to faint. Brahma addressed Garuda and said, "O carrier of Lord Krsna, please come here. He consoled Garuda and said, "Please take Sri Krsna and Sri Baladeva on your back, and bring Them in the midst of the ocean where there is a mountain named Raivata." Garuda is not an ordinary bird. He is able to do anything and everything.

"By the desire of Lord Krsna and myself, Visvakarma (the demigod architect) made ‘New Vrndavana.’ If one stands in the middle of this place, he will see it as Vrndavana. If he moves to the outskirts, however, he will understand that it is not. While standing in the center one cannot understand whether he is in Vrndavana or another place."

Visvakarma made murtis (worshipable statues) of Nanda Baba and Mother Yasoda. They were extremely attractive and looked like they were moving and about to talk. In this world a murti simply stands and does not speak, but those made by Visvakarma seemed as though they were just about to talk. He also made many cows, calves and green grasses. It seemed as though the cows were grazing. Brahma thus told Garuda to take Sri Krsna and Sri Balarama, and put them in the midst of the Raivata Mountain.

Receiving the order from Lord Brahma, Garuda gently placed Krsna and Baladeva on his back and carried them to Raivata Mountain. From there he flew into the sky and situated himself there so that he could see their next pastimes – and no one could see him.

Narada thought, "I am the root of all these problems. All these calamitous events are due to me. So what should I do now?" He therefore also went there and situated himself in a place where he could see upcoming pastimes. Brahmaji ordered that no one else could go except for Mother Rohini.

There, Krsna could not understand whether He was in Vrndavana or anywhere else. He also could not distinguish if the murtis were ‘original’ or murtis.

While watching the pastimes from the sky Garuda shielded the brothers and their associated from the strong sun and heat by his large wings. In the meantime Brahmaji very skilfully sent Vasudeva and Devaki back to their own homes, because as parents they are not allowed to see the pastimes of Krsna with the gopis.

Uddhava positioned Padmavati, Satyabhama, Rukmini and others at a distance behind a bush, so they could witness the pastimes but so that Krsna would not be able to see them. Otherwise, their presence would disturb the pastime.

Gradually, Lord Baladeva became conscious and realized Brahma's desire and plan. He took some water and cleaned Krsna's face and body. Krsna was weeping bitterly and lamenting so much that His tears glided down from His eyes to his chest. Due to the tears mixing with dust from the earth, some muddy spots appeared on His body, and Baladeva Prabhu removed them. He dressed Krsna the way He used to dress when He was in Vraja. He put a peacock feather on His head, a flute and buffalo horn in His waist belt, and srngara under his armpit.

He embraced him and said, "O my dear brother, wake up. Mother Yasoda and Nanda Baba are thinking, 'Why is my son sleeping so much?’ Not only that, look! All the gopis are walking towards you. Everyone is whispering and wondering, "Why is He sleeping so long?’ Don't delay. Please get up, please get up or they will joke about you."

Sri Krsna became somewhat conscious. He opened His eyes, yawned and stretched His body, chanting, "Siva, Siva, Siva - May everything be auspicious." He previously did that in Vraja. Seeing Nanda Baba, He offered pranama with folded palms, and He became ashamed.

Then He saw Mother Yasoda standing close by. In Vraja, whenever He would come home late, Mother Yasoda would be standing in the same position as now. He noticed that there was some butter in His mother’s hand, just as she used to have in Vraja. He smiled and posed for her in a dancing position, just as He would do in Vraja. He took the butter from her and said, "O Mother, I came so late. I had many dreams – I dreamed that I gave up Vraja and went to Mathura, and then to Dvaraka; and I married 16,108 queens. Each queen had 10 sons and one daughter. Now it is late. When I come back I will give you the details, so don't worry." Krsna held the butter in His hand but didn't eat it, because He could not eat it without first offering it to Baladeva Prabhu. Nowadays there is no such affection between brothers. Nowadays brothers quarrel with each other, but Krsna and Baladeva did not quarrel.

Baladeva said, "O Krsna, please come quickly. Sridama and Subala cannot control the cows; so please come quickly."

Lord Krsna said to Baladeva Prabhu, "O Brother, if you will believe me when I tell you what I have seen in My dream, I will tell you everything in detail in the forest." The above narration was spoken to Pariskit Maharaja to his mother, and he advised her to listen carefully.

[Shakti-Fan]

Yes Beggar is right maybe we should try to forget about this cruel blackish person who has been called the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Maybe our prospect should be elsewhere. According to Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar-deva Goswami Maharaja:

The Gaudiya Vaisnavas know only Radharani They are concerned only with Her and Her duties, Her necessities. They are ready to serve Her in all respects, and cannot contemplate any service without Her. That is the highest achievement of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, that is the special feature of Mahaprabhu's party, and that was announced by Raghunatha Dasa Goswami.

"There is a hope which is sustaining me and nurturing my existence. With that hope I am somehow passing my days. But my patience has reached its end. I can't endure it any longer. At this moment if You do not show Your grace to me, Sri Radha, I shall lose my prospect forever. I shall have no desire to continue my life. And Vrndavana, which is even dearer to me than my life itself - I am disgusted with it. And what to speak of anything else, I am even disgusted with Krsna. It is shameful to utter such words, but I can have no love even for Krsna unless and until You take me within Your confidential camp of service." - Raghunatha Dasa

Once, the Diwan of Bharatpur had come on a pilgrimage with his family to the holiest of places, Sri Radha-kunda, the holy lake of Srimati Radharani. He and his family were circumambulating Radha-kunda. They would fall flat on the ground, offering obeisances lying down with their arms outstretched. Every time they bowed down in this way, they would mark the spot where their fingertips touched the earth. Then they would slowly rise, step forward to where that spot had been marked, and again fall flat, offering their obeisances with great respect and adoration. In this way they were circumambulating the entire Radha-kunda. Upon seeing such intense worship, Paramananda Prabhu, an intimate disciple of our guru maharaja Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, intimated to Prabhupada that the Diwan and his family must have great respect for Radharani to circumambulate the Radha-kunda in such a fashion.

At that time Prabhupada said, "Their angle of vision towards Radha-kunda and Radharani is different from ours. They recognize and revere Krsna. And because Radharani is Krsna's favorite, they also have some reverence for Radha-kunda. But our vision is just the opposite. Our concern is with Radharani. And only because She wants Krsna do we have any connection with Him."

And so, the Gaudiya Vaisnavas know only Radharani. They are concerned only with Her, and Her duties, Her necessities. They are ready to serve Her in all respects, and cannot contemplate any service without Her. That is the highest achievement of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, that is the special feature of Mahaprabhu's party, and that was announced by Raghunatha Dasa Goswami in his Vilapa-kusumanjali (102):

 

 

 

<CENTER>asabharair-amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit

kalo mayatigamitah kila sampratam hi

tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me

pranair vraje na ca varoru bakarinapi

 

</CENTER>This verse is a direct prayer to Radharani. It expresses a particular type of hope which is so sweet and reassuring that it is compared with an unlimited ocean of nectar. He says, "There is a hope which is sustaining me and nurturing my existence. With that hope I am somehow passing my days, dragging my life through these tedious times. That nectarine ocean of hope is attracting me and keeping me alive. But my patience has reached its end. I can't endure it any longer. I can't wait any more. "At this moment if You do not show Your grace to me, I am finished. I shall lose my prospect forever. I shall have no desire to continue my life. It will all be useless. Without Your grace, I can't stand to live another moment. And Vrndavana, which is even dearer to me than my life itself - I am disgusted with it. It is painful; it is always pinching me. And what to speak of anything else, I am even disgusted with Krsna. It is shameful to utter such words, but I can have no love even for Krsna unless and until You take me within Your confidential camp of service." This is the prayer of Raghunatha Dasa.

When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada would begin to explain this verse, his figure would become transformed. He would become full of emotion; his face would become like that of a phantom.

In this verse, Raghunatha Dasa Goswami, taking an extreme risk, says, "O Radha, if I do not get Your favor, I don't want anything. I want You and You alone. To have an independent relationship with anyone else, eliminating You, is impossible in my life. You must be first, and then others. Without You, we can never even think of a separate relationship with Krsna." Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja has written that without Radharani's company, Krsna is not beautiful. Everything is relative - dependent. A teacher depends on the student, and the student depends on his teacher. Although Krsna is the enjoyer, He is completely dependent on the enjoyed, Srimati Radharani. The two are correlative; one cannot be separated from the other. As the enjoyed, Radharani is also absolutely dependent on Krsna, the enjoyer.

Radharani says, "My fate is lost forever because I have given Myself, I have sold Myself to many places. When I heard the flute, I dedicated Myself to the song of the flute. When I heard the name of Krsna, I dedicated Myself to that sound. And when I saw a beautiful picture of Krsna, I wholly dedicated Myself to that picture. So in three places I have sold Myself completely, with no possibility of any happiness or peace in My life. If I had dedicated Myself to only one thing, there might have been a possibility of peace, but because I have dedicated Myself in three different places, I am hopeless.

"Seeing the picture of Krsna, I couldn't contain Myself. I couldn't but give Myself to that beautiful figure, and so I dedicated Myself fully. The name of Krsna also purchased Me fully. And the sweet sound from the flute - that has also drawn Me to the extreme of dedication. So how can I hope for peace in My life? It is impossible, My friends." Radharani did not know it at that time, but the source of Krsna's flute, His name, and His beauty are one. If She could have seen how all three of these meet together, then it would have been possible for Her to have peace of mind. But it is difficult to understand this principle.

How is it that the sound of Krsna's flute, the sound of His name, and a picture of His form are nondifferent from Krsna Himself? Idealism. In Hegel's words, ideal realism. The absolute idea is not to be dismissed as an abstract thing; rather, it is the basis of all existence. Reality is there, but it is ideal realism. And the foundation of the reality of Vrndavana is given by Nityananda, Baladeva: nitaiyer koruna habe, braje radha-krsna pabe, dharo nitai-carana du'khani.

After Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes the position of Radharani in his Saranagati, he says, "I want to serve those who have the service of Radharani in their heart. I want to serve the feet-dust of those whose only wealth is the service of Sri Radha. I want to fall before them and take the dust of their holy feet. If you cannot fix your mind in the service of Radharani, then all your attempts to serve Krsna are useless. If you cannot achieve earnestness in the service of Srimati Radharani, then all your labor for Krsna has gone to hell." We cannot conceive of a sun without heat, nor can we conceive of Godhead without His potency. So also, no conception of Krsna is possible without Srimati Radharani. We can't know any Madhava without Radha.

She is Krsna's other half - in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's language, the predominated moiety. Devotional service as a whole is represented by Her, because both the intensity and the comprehensiveness of Her service to Krsna are unparalleled. There are so many examples of chaste and pious ladies in the ancient history of the Puranas: Saci, the faithful wife of Indra; Sati, the wife of Lord Siva; Laksmidevi, the goddess of fortune; Satyabhama, Krsna's wife in Dvaraka; Rukmini, the principle queen of Krsna in Dvaraka; and even the antagonists of Radharani, headed by Candravali. All of them represent different aspects of Radharani. They all spring from the main potency which is known as Radha.

The name Radha comes from the word aradhana: One who can serve, who can worship, who can give respect, who really loves Krsna, who can render loving service. All of these other ladies who are famous for their chastity and piety are but partial representations of Radharani. If we note the scriptures and scrutinize the position of those virtuous ladies, we'll find that the source of all their chastity and devotion is Srimati Radharani. She is the fountainhead of devotion. And so Bhaktivinoda says, "I bow down and take the dust of the holy feet of those who have as their only wealth the service of Radharani. I hanker after nothing else. " Whoever knows this and always travels on that path with a sincere heart is most fortunate.

It is the ideal that makes one great, not any material possession. One who has the highest ideal is really wealthy. The highest ideal is the most valuable thing we may possess. And less valuable things must be eliminated if we are to concentrate our efforts and save ourselves from useless endeavor. Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to show us that highest ideal - the path of divine love. And we find divine love of Godhead in its highest intensity in His life and teachings of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The whole Srimad-Bhagavatam is meant to illustrate the ideal of divine love which reaches its highest expression in Srimati Radharani.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam sings very gloriously about the paramour relationship of Radha and Krsna. The Vedas and other Puranas are not so expressive about such confidential pastimes, yet we find a hint of the glories of Radha and Krsna in Srimad-Bhagavatam. And the Goswamis have more fully expressed Radharani's devotion in their writings. In Rupa Goswami's Padyavali, we find Her saying, "My Lord, people say that I have a bad reputation because of My connection with You. I do not feel any trouble in My heart because of this. My concern is that I could not give Myself to You completely. The people in general say that I am illicitly connected with You, but what disturbs Me is that I could not really give Myself to You. I feel that I am not fit for Your service. This is only the trouble within My heart."

And the ecstasy of divine love increases in separation. One day, when Krsna was playing with His cowherd boyfriends in the pasturing grounds of Vrndavana, Krsna suddenly felt extreme separation from Radharani. He sent His best friend Subala to Radharani, saying, "Go to My Radha and fetch Her. Without Her, I can't live. Suddenly I have so much desire for Her company that I can't stand it anymore. Somehow manage to bring Her." Subala said, "How is it possible to bring Her here in the jungle in broad daylight?" Krsna told him, "Somehow manage it!"

Subala thought, "What should I do?" Subala was very intimately connected with the family of Radharani's husband. He went to the house of Radharani and told Her girlfriends, "Krsna can't tolerate separation from Radharani any longer. He is so eager to meet Her that He is going mad. Somehow you have to arrange for Them to meet."

"How is it possible?" the gopis asked. Subala explained to them that Krsna was nearby in the jungle. They discussed between themselves what to do. Subala was a beautiful boy who resembled Radharani. So Subala took the dress of Radharani, and Radharani wore Subala's cowherd dress.

When Radharani was discovered wearing the dress of Subala, She was challenged by Her family members: "Subala! What are you doing here?" In the dress of Subala, Radharani said, "A calf is missing and its mother is mooing. So I have come here looking for that calf." So a calf was given to Radharani, and She carried that small calf on her breast into the forest. In this way, Radharani was disguised as Subala, while Subala, who had taken the dress of Radharani, remained behind in Her room.

Radharani had been given a hint of where Krsna was hiding near the forest's edge. She went to seek Him out. At last, when Radharani saw Krsna, She approached Him in the garb of Subala. Krsna was mad. He could not detect that Radharani had come, but mistook Her for Subala. He said, "Oh, Subala, you have come back without Radharani! Couldn't you bring Her?"

Radharani began cutting jokes: "No," She said, "It was impossible for me to bring Her in the daytime." Krsna said, "Then what am I to do? I can't tolerate My life any longer." Radharani said, "If You say so, I can go to Candravali and bring her.No, no," Krsna said, "Curd cannot satisfy the thirst for milk. It is not possible!" Krsna was faint with disappointment. Then Radharani embraced Him, saying, "My Lord, can't You recognize Your maidservant? You failed to recognize Me!" Then Krsna was again full of joy.

Although the pastimes of Radha and Govinda are mentioned in the scriptures, these are all very high things. They are not ordinarily to be expressed in words, but still sometimes we are forced to speak about them because the high ideal of divine love given by Srimad-Bhagavatam is the supreme goal of life. Of course, the scholarship of Sukadeva Goswami and Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu have helped, to a certain extent, to establish the dignity of the proposal that love is above knowledge. It was admitted by everyone that Sukadeva held the highest attainment of the learned men of knowledge; he was unanimously admitted by the scholars to hold the highest position. Because of this, when Sukadeva Goswami came to inaugurate the principle that divine love is above everything else, the scholars had to take notice. Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated to the scholars that His intelligence and scholarship excelled everyone else's. So when He came with the tidings of divine love, then it was easier for the ordinary men to accept it as the highest ideal and try for it.

So Vasudeva Ghosh says, yadi gaura na ha'te tabe ki haita kemane dharitam de. If Mahaprabhu had not appeared in this Kali-yuga, then how could we tolerate living? How could we sustain our lives? What He has given - the very gist of life, the very taste, the charm of life - without that, we think it is impossible for anyone to live in this world. Such a thing has been invented, discovered by Gauranga. If He had not come, then how could we live? It is impossible to live devoid of such a holy and gracious thing as divine love. Without Caitanya Mahaprabhu, how could we know that Radharani stands supreme in the world of divine love? We have received all these things from Him, and now we think that life is worth living. Otherwise to live would be suicidal.

And serving those who can serve Radharani is the way to approach Her vicinity. By serving the servants of the servants, we are assured of success in getting the grace of Krsna. If somehow one can be counted in the group of Srimati Radharani's servitors, one's future is assured.

Within the group of Radharani's servitors, we aspire to be rupanugas, followers of Sri Rupa. And the followers of Sri Rupa will have great earnestness to look after the order of Sri Rupa, as he does towards Lalita. In this way, through Rupa Goswami, our devotional service is going to the highest plane. And our highest gain is only there. Not even our connection with Radharani or Lalitadevi is the highest goal of life, but our highest aspiration is to serve in the Rupanuga-sampradaya; that means that our highest attainment is in Sri Rupa's connection.

Radha-dasyam has been said to be the highest attainment. Why? The quality and quantity of rasa that Radharani can draw from Krsna can never be found anywhere else. So if you are situated just behind Radharani, you'll be allowed to taste not only the quantity, but the highest quality of rasa.

No other person can draw such high rasa from Krsna. The fullest, highest type of quality is drawn from Krsna: He gives Himself fully and wholly and deeply. So if you are in Sri Rupa's group, then you can have a taste of that sort of rasa.

In Radharani's camp, when Krsna and Radha are enjoying very solitary pastimes in a secluded place, the grown-up sakhis can't venture to enter the room and assist Them. The young girls, the manjaris, are sent there. The leader of that young group can enter where both Radha and Govinda are very closely connected, when even the sakhis do not venture to go for fear of causing some interruption. But Rupa and the manjaris can enter there at that time due to their young age. That sort of rasa that cannot be had even through the sakhis can be had only through the manjaris.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura prays to gain admission there. He has such a high quality of aspiration. He says rupanuga hoite sei doy. He runs to be enlisted in the group of Rupa, who can grant us that sort of prospect. And Prabhodananda Saraswati has described the prerequisite for understanding all these things:

 

 

<CENTER>yatha yatha gaura padaravinde

vindeta bhaktim krta punya-rasih

tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmat

radha padambhoja sudhambhurasih

 

</CENTER>"As much as you surrender to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, you'll find yourself safely situated in the service of Radha-Govinda. Don't try to approach Radha-Govinda directly; if you do, there may be some difficulty. But the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga will take you there safely." In my Sanskrit poem dedicated to Bhaktivinoda Thakura, I have explained all these points:

 

 

<CENTER>sri-gauranumatam svarupa-viditam rupagrajenadrtam

rupadyaih parivesitam raghu-ganair-asvaditam sevitam

jivadyair abhiraksitam suka-siva-brahmadi sammanitam

sri-radha-pada-sevanamrtam aho tad datum iso bhavan

 

</CENTER>"What was sanctioned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by His descent was intimately known only to Sri Svarupa Damodara Goswami. It was adored by Sanatana Goswami and served by Rupa Goswami and his followers. Raghunatha Dasa Goswami tasted that wonderful thing fully and enhanced it with his own realization. And Jiva Goswami supported and protected it by quoting the scriptures from different places. The taste of that divine truth is aspired for by Brahma, Siva, and Uddhava, who respect it as the supreme goal of life. What is this wonderful truth? Sri radha-pada-sevana: that the highest nectar of our life is the service of Srimati Radharani. This is most wonderful. O Bhaktivinoda Thakura, you are our master. It is within your power to allow them to bestow their grace upon us. You are in a position to bestow the highest gift ever known to the world upon us all. It is at your disposal. O Bhaktivinoda Thakura, please be kind to us and grant us your mercy."

So Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, our most benevolent Lord, has come to search for His long lost servants and to give to them this highest ideal of divine love.

Gaura Hari Bol!

[Guest guest]

 

I agree with the quote you posted above. Krsna let's us go our own way if we so desire knowing that we will learn from our mistake and desire to come back to him. He has designed the material experience to teach us by our mistakes. As fools the best we can do is learn by our mistakes.

 

Somehow we made a wrong turn and came to wrong side of the river Viraja. This side of that river is the land of birth death old age and disease. And now we have become lost in this jungle.

 

God will cleanse us of our sinful natures by the power of His Holy name. He has hundreds and millions of such names. Whatever name that indicates the Supreme Person and attracts you please chant that name and pray for mercy

 

Don't search for reasons why God cannot save you. Look instead for the salvation.

 

Where did u come up with this concept that we made a wrong turn?Who told u this or this is also one of the billion concepts that devotees make up to glorify their lords?Because i never heard of this river Viraja and stuff before,i thought that the Epics Ramayana and Baratha is enough to keep looking when we have doubts.But this seems new,educate me where did u come up with this wrong turn concept?

[theist]

It seems self evident that those who are presently lost in material bewilderment (us) made a wrong turn somewhere along the line to get lost in the first place.

 

"The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajä River, and beyond the Virajä, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation." - From the purport to SB 2.9.10

[Beggar]

 

...i never heard of this river Viraja and stuff before,i thought that the Epics Ramayana and Baratha is enough to keep looking when we have doubts.But this seems new,educate me where did u come up with this wrong turn concept?

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153

upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

'virajā', 'brahma-loka' bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

SYNONYMS

upajiyā — being cultivated; bāḍe — grows; latā — the creeper of devotional service; brahmāṇḍa — the whole universe; bhedi' — penetrating; yāya — goes; virajā — the river between the spiritual world and the material world; brahma-loka — the Brahman effulgence; bhedi' — penetrating; para-vyoma — the spiritual sky; pāya — attains.

TRANSLATION

"As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana.

PURPORT

A creeper generally takes shelter of a big tree, but the bhakti-latā, being the creeper of spiritual energy, cannot take shelter of any material planet, for there is no tree on any material planet that the bhakti creeper can utilize for shelter. In other words, devotional service cannot be utilized for any material purpose. Devotional service is meant only for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sometimes men with a poor fund of knowledge maintain that bhakti can be applied to material things also. In other words, they say that devotional service can be rendered to one's country or to the demigods, but this is not a fact. Devotional service is especially meant for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and it is beyond this material range. There is a river, or causal ocean, between the spiritual and material natures, and this river is free from the influence of the three modes of material nature; therefore it is called Virajā. The prefix vi means vigata ("completely eradicated"), and rajas means "the influence of the material world." On this platform, a living entity is completely free from material entanglement. For the jñānīs who want to merge into the Brahman effulgence, there is Brahma-loka. The bhakti-latā, however, has no shelter in the material world, nor has it shelter in Brahma-loka, although Brahma-loka is beyond the material world. The bhakti-latā grows until it reaches the spiritual sky, where Goloka Vṛndāvana is situated.

<<< >>>

[renuka]

 

THATS MY POINT.....ITS NOT FAIR

 

forget everything else....and someone give me the answer to this question :

 

WHY AREN'T WE ALLOWED TO REMEMBER OUR MISTAKES ?

 

why aren't we allowed to know the reason for being "tied to the pole" ?

 

The cow has no free will whatsoever....he has to remain tied to the pole...he is fooled into thinking he has freewill...just like all other jivas.

 

It's just like a king/dictator....he lets his subjects do things, but only under limits....this is not free will.

 

In order to understand this point clearly one needs to know some basic facts about the existance of soul.

1. The soul is the marginal potency of the Lord. Marginal means the soul has the independance to choose to be either in the material world or in the spiritual world. Doesn't this sound like freewill facility?

 

2. The souls constitutional positions is servant of God. The Lord is the Supreme enjoyer. One who owns a car can be called the ultimate enjoyer of the car. Similary the creator is the supreme enjoyer. and the jivas are his servitors.

 

3. the creator has created the creation for the jivas to live in. Since jiva is not god he cannot create some thing new for himself. Now if one thinks the jiva is forced to be in this world created by God and hence he has no free will, this would be too much of asking by a mere servitor, keeping in mind his constitutional position.

 

4. It's just like a king/dictator....he lets his subjects do things, but only under limits....this is not free will.[/quote - this is true. the only difference is the king's subject humbly accepts the authority of the king where as the jive foolishly tries to lord over creation.

 

5. It is true that not all can understand this for this knowledge is imparted only to those who render humble service to the Lord and His devotees. FOr the rest it is like licking the mere honey bottle thinking of honey.

 

6.WHY AREN'T WE ALLOWED TO REMEMBER OUR MISTAKES ?

Why not? you should be able to remember the cookies you stole when you were a kid. Try to rectify them. You may be able to progress.

[Guest guest]

 

I've seen some pretty decent replies. The first thing is, you need to try inquire submissively. Your present attitude is not conducive towards understanding spiritual topics. It's not the devotees who are causing you to lose faith, it's your mind.

 

If we were able to remember our past lives, we would not be able to concentrate on our present lives. We would be remembering previous loved ones, (who may still be alive), past joys and sorrows, intense physical traumas... surely you get the picture: we'd be totally psychotic and unable to deal with the present reality.

 

When a devotee experiences some type of misery, he doesn't need to know exactly what caused it. He has faith that he did something wrong, and with humility, he tolerates any suffering that may come, and continues on in devotional service. In Srila Prabhupada's NOD, it is said that by this humble attitude, one attains the Kingdom of God.

 

If you have studied sastra at all, then surely you have a pretty good idea what types of activities create negative karmic reactions. Even just using old-fashioned common sense, let's say you have a spouse who is always creating problems for you, who seems to enjoy tormenting you and making your life a living hell. Isn't it logical to conclude that most likely, in a previous life, you treated a former spouse in the same manner? Is it really necessary to know all the specifics and graphic details?

 

A little faith is required from our side. Throwing temper tantrums and pointing fingers at God is not the answer. Take one step towards Him, and He will take ten steps towards you. Give Him just a small drop of your faith, (losing the 'tude), and He will most assuredly reciprocate more than you could ever imagine.

 

 

I think that's a load of rubbish. God doesn't necessarily reward anyone for their search for Him. It entirely depends on why the seeker sought out God in the first place. If his initial desire isn't fulfilled, what worth does seeing God have? One may say that the seeker has attained bliss, but is it really bliss to the person if his prolbems and issues still exist and there is no conflict resolution? That bliss he feels upon seeing God instantly will vanish when he sees his own troubles have persisted, despite his investment in time to see God and hope that what troubles him most could be resolved. Maybe God does answer some people's prayers, I don't know if he does, but He certainly doesn't answer everyone's prayers, even if they seek Him out.

 

Of course there are those rare sincere seekers who do attain what they asked for since all they've asked for is to see God. But is seeing really believing? One can see a lot of things if he can imagine it, so what worth does the act of seeing have? Unless there's an objective way to verify what you've seen is real, which would be for that experience to carry into everyday life, or for whatever conflict that troubles the seeker most to be resolved somewhat miraculously.

 

Also, is it fair to expect someone to suffer for something they did wrong, when they don't know about what they did wrong?

 

If someone is arrested for a crime that he doesn't remember he committed, is that fair if you never tell him what the crime was, yet sentence him to life imprisonment? I would think that's the greatest injustice there could be. Same with this so-called God's sense of justice. It would only make sense if God allowed for people to see what they did wrong, so they can correct their mistakes, and accept their punishment as just. Otherwise, it appears as if God were merciless, whimsical, and just generally cruel. The question of "Why me?" wouldn't occur if someone KNEW why they were being punished, and it would provide a way for them to understand what they did wrong so they could have a chance to fix it.

 

If a person doesn't know what he did was wrong, he's likely to repeat it. Even if he were punished for the wrong thing he did yet not told about it, he's still likely to repeat the action that precipitated the punishment because he doesn't know that action was wrong in itself.

[Guest guest]

 

Same with this so-called God's sense of justice. It would only make sense if God allowed for people to see what they did wrong, so they can correct their mistakes, and accept their punishment as just.

 

Seems you're not even trying to understand. Just dancing around in circles. We are experiencing karmic reactions at every moment. You want explanations for each of those reactions, as they are in the process of manifesting. It sounds as if you expect (actually, "demand" would be more appropriate) God Himself to be walking by your side, providing a running commentary on the intricacies of all your ongoing actions and reactions.

 

Then you contradict yourself:

 

 

It would only make sense if God allowed for people to see what they did wrong[...]

 

...by your earlier statement:

 

 

But is seeing really believing? One can see a lot of things if he can imagine it, so what worth does the act of seeing have?

 

I don't know what angle of vision you are approaching this subject matter, whether you are an atheist, a Christian, a former devotee, but whatever the case, your attitude still leaves something to be desired. "A load of rubbish" you say. That's your prerogative. The answers to your questions are contained in Sastra. You are not qualified to have God appear before you and explain the laws of karma, which is why we have sastra, which serve as guidebooks, lawbooks if you will. Abide by these lawbooks and you will know why you are suffering, and simultaneously, you will know which activities to avoid so that you won't experience the same suffering twice. Ignore these lawbooks, and proceed at your own risk, and then in your next life you can blame God all over again.

[Guest guest]

 

One may say that the seeker has attained bliss, but is it really bliss to the person if his prolbems and issues still exist and there is no conflict resolution? That bliss he feels upon seeing God instantly will vanish when he sees his own troubles have persisted[...]

 

This pretty much confirms my suspicion that you are not at all approaching this as an inquiring devotee, but rather as a challenging atheist with an agenda.

 

The fact is, a devotee experiencing the ecstatic bliss of seeing God will be completely and utterly oblivious to the three-fold miseries of life, no matter how severe. You are claiming the opposite to be true, that the miseries will overpower, even nullify the bliss of Krsna prema.

[Guest guest]

 

This pretty much confirms my suspicion that you are not at all approaching this as an inquiring devotee, but rather as a challenging atheist with an agenda.

 

The fact is, a devotee experiencing the ecstatic bliss of seeing God will be completely and utterly oblivious to the three-fold miseries of life, no matter how severe. You are claiming the opposite to be true, that the miseries will overpower, even nullify the bliss of Krsna prema.

 

 

When did u see or feel the bliss so far in this material life of urs?U guys r living in fantasy and this realistic person is asking a question caring for the people who r suffering,if ur all merciful krsna is so kind and powerful y cant he bless u all with bliss right now this moment and cure all ailments atleast to u all and not us.

[Guest guest]

You make it sound as if you're the only one who cares about the suffering of others. We care as well. More than you know. It's just that we place more emphasis on developing love of God than we do upon liberation (from material miseries.) Love of God (prema) automatically includes liberation, a concept which is clearly foreign to you.

 

Obviously, you have prejudged us and continue to judge us that we are living in a world of fantasy, and nothing we say will change your way of thinking. So why bother then? You're not here to engage in any type of rational discussion on the issue of karma. What is your agenda? Come clean. It's time.

[Guest guest]

Let us not forget that Jesus said "As ye sow, so shall ye reap".

 

this is clearly a reference to the law of karma.

 

If we apply this rule that Jesus spoke, then we have to accept that we cannot escape our deeds through the act of dying.

 

We will reap what we sow.

There is no escaping that, unless we become redeemed and achieve salvation through grace.

 

By grace are ye saved through faith.

[Guest guest]

 

You make it sound as if you're the only one who cares about the suffering of others. We care as well. More than you know. It's just that we place more emphasis on developing love of God than we do upon liberation (from material miseries.) Love of God (prema) automatically includes liberation, a concept which is clearly foreign to you.

 

Obviously, you have prejudged us and continue to judge us that we are living in a world of fantasy, and nothing we say will change your way of thinking. So why bother then? You're not here to engage in any type of rational discussion on the issue of karma. What is your agenda? Come clean. It's time.

 

 

I dont understand this,if ur not able to answer my question u come up and question my motives,y is it so personal?U dont know me and i dont know u,so just keep this personal remarks away.My question was have u felt the bliss u claim to exist?Yes u dont seem to care for peoples suffering,ur more concerned about the afterlife,which no one including u has seen.

Instead of questioning my motives start answering my questions,there r 2 threads on Hindu Aethisms,one has only 3 replies,try to answer it and lets see ur knowledge and yes it is fantasy unless and until u got a iota of proof or u urself have felt any of the so called Bliss.

Tomorrow if someone comes and say there is a planet full of people who have 10000 hands and u will reach that planet only if u chant so and so mantra 1 million times and love that diety will u admit it or ridicule that person?

Unless u care for peoples suffering fully and not give them and urself false hope of heaven u got no right to claim u care.If u really care wont u wish their suffering taken?If u care wont u answer me rather than just asking me to quit asking questions,y dont u try enlightenign some one who dont believe rather than keep enlightening urself,its simple if there is proof even a aethist will turn theist.

[Guest guest]

 

U dont know me and i dont know u,so just keep this personal remarks away.

 

Aren't you being just a big hypocritical here? Scroll back and read some of your previous posts.

 

 

If u care wont u answer me rather than just asking me to quit asking questions

 

I have answered, several times, as have others. But you ignore our replies, become enraged, and dub it "hogwash." Then you demand answers to further questions you have. We're more than willing to answer all of your questions to the best of our abilities, but thus far you haven't shown even the slightest interest or appreciation in our replies. In fact, you rarely acknowledge them, except for occasionally dismissing them in an insulting manner. If the past is prologue...

[Guest guest]

 

Aren't you being just a big hypocritical here? Scroll back and read some of your previous posts.

 

 

 

I have answered, several times, as have others. But you ignore our replies, become enraged, and dub it "hogwash." Then you demand answers to further questions you have. We're more than willing to answer all of your questions to the best of our abilities, but thus far you haven't shown even the slightest interest or appreciation in our replies. In fact, you rarely acknowledge them, except for occasionally dismissing them in an insulting manner. If the past is prologue...

 

 

This is what i wrote

 

 

I dont understand this,if ur not able to answer my question u come up and question my motives,y is it so personal?U dont know me and i dont know u,so just keep this personal remarks away.My question was have u felt the bliss u claim to exist?Yes u dont seem to care for peoples suffering,ur more concerned about the afterlife,which no one including u has seen.

Instead of questioning my motives start answering my questions,there r 2 threads on Hindu Aethisms,one has only 3 replies,try to answer it and lets see ur knowledge and yes it is fantasy unless and until u got a iota of proof or u urself have felt any of the so called Bliss.

Tomorrow if someone comes and say there is a planet full of people who have 10000 hands and u will reach that planet only if u chant so and so mantra 1 million times and love that diety will u admit it or ridicule that person?

Unless u care for peoples suffering fully and not give them and urself false hope of heaven u got no right to claim u care.If u really care wont u wish their suffering taken?If u care wont u answer me rather than just asking me to quit asking questions,y dont u try enlightenign some one who dont believe rather than keep enlightening urself,its simple if there is proof even a aethist will turn theist.

 

 

And the above (In dark grey) was ur reply,now u tell me did u answer it all?I dont know what u mean im being hypocritical,was i personal when i called ur postings fantasies,ofcourse not.I asked proof for the GOLOKA or Krsna existence and Aswathamas existence(Ofcourse i know its a different posting)and Past births memories and so far there has been no rational and realistic answer to it and all u answer is partially everytime conveniently ignoring the harder questions,so how do u expect me to acknowledge stuff when there is nothing relevant.

 

The below are the answers i get for my queries

 

Ur a aethist dont post here

Ur motives r unknown

Ur not rational

Ur insulting our beliefs.

 

The above is what u got to say.

 

Again i repeat its simple if u claim some outer world to exist which would nullify all the sufferings and a god who is so merciful to take us there provided we chant his name,then give a glimpse of that outer world and that GOD or else how do u expect anyone who isnt a ISKONI yet to believe?Please try to understand this simple query and dont diver topics,this is getting to be a circular argument otherwise.

[Guest guest]

 

The below are the answers i get for my queries

 

Ur a aethist dont post here

Ur motives r unknown

Ur not rational

Ur insulting our beliefs.

 

You're not serious, are you? You received many detailed replies. The ones you listed above are simply the replies to your angry and insulting replies.

 

 

The above is what u got to say.

 

That is not true. I did mention in one reply that you were behaving irrationally, (to our replies.) The other quotes which you attribute to me were not made by me. But it appears that because I have kindly taken the time to reply to your last few posts, you have somehow selected me to be your personal whipping boy.

 

I'm sorry that I have been such a disappointment to you. I will take this as my cue to humbly bow out of this conversation. Good luck in your quest.

[Guest guest]

A good astrologer of mine told me why this or that is happening to me.

what is my specific mentality,and how to cure it...

It helped a little in my Krsna-conscious journeys,becouse i like to be "sponteanous"....

So the answer is that i did this... in the past and therefore i have now this...reaction(with may be valid for all life or few years).

When one becomes awekened to God-consciousness then the Lord is minimizasing karmas,to help us advance in spiritual lives.Egz.:you cut your finger insted of your arm.

So MORE IMPORTANT IS WHAT WE CAN DO NOW FOR THE PLEASURE OF GURU & GOURANGA...

 

Gouraanga!

[barney]

 

What's the point of karma if we can't remember our mistakes.

 

that means all these people who sin in this life can go about doing the same thing in the next without any remorse...afterall, you can't remember what was right/wrong.

 

there is no free will if don't have the freedom to learn from our mistakes.

 

 

 

My dear friend that is th secret mystery of life. God wants you to wittness the good and the bad so that you wil realize what you must do in order not to have bad effect in your next life. Karma is action and it all depends if it is good or bad. You can realize it in this life if you previous karma was good or bad. I know Christians would not believe in this and blame their sufferings on the original sin of Adam and Eve. That is an easy way of escaping instead of taking the blame upon yourself.

 

Hinduism has show the way to salvation the easy way and all one has to do is do good deeds in this life and you'll be liberated in the next. Remember one thing very clearly. This human life is suppose to the the last birth to liberate the soul and if you fail than it is back to the darwing board. Birth after birth will your soul transmigrate till you realize the Supreme Being otherwise you will be stuck here for sometime.

[Guest guest]

Your questions aren't novel or new in any way. They have been asked to all faithful people of all faith traditions in all periods throughout history.

 

Why do good people suffer and bad people enjoy? There are many different versions of this same question.

 

Your other question is more specific to the answer given by the Vedic tradition - if it's karma why does God not allow people who are suffering or enjoying know the reason for their good or bad fortune? In other words - if we are eternal and have lived many past lives, why can't we remember them and thus learn from them?

 

Since you already know the answer to the first question given by Hindu scriptures is karma - then your second question needs addressing.

 

I'm not going to take the time to quote from scripture for you since you don't seem to have any regard for what's contained therein anyway. However I will tell you that in the Srimad Bhagavatam it is stated that the soul in the mother's womb remembers 100 past lives and is very repentant and vows to live life taking full advantage of the opportunity to develop love of God. It goes on further to explain that this 'memory' is lost at birth.

 

When a person or his/her friends or family suffers and feels that God's promise is to relieve their suffering that person's first reaction is anger at not being given what they expected. This leads many people to embrace atheism. But where exactly does anyone find in any faith tradition that God's promise is to relieve sources of material suffering? In actuality, as long as one inhabits a temporary body there will be suffering as much as they identify with that body as self. Faith traditions lead their adherants to expereinces beyond the confines of the body/mind and to an identity not molded by external circumstances.

 

At any rate, the answer is fairly simple - but someone like you will not accept it. The answer is that the cause of our suffering is our misidentification with matter. The cause of relief from that suffering is identifcation of the self as spirit and transcendant to matter. All spiritual practices are meant to gradually bring about a change in conscious experience of the practitioner form an externally focused consciousness to a spiritually focused consciousness.

 

Try some spiritual practices like meditation. In our tradition there are nine main practices that are especially useful in yielding a change of consciousness to those who practice them. You have heard of them - hearing about Krsna, talking about Krsna, praying to Krsna, remembering Krsna etc. Try these and see for yourself if your consciousness changes.

 

You may find that as your consciousness changes your thinking about material suffering - it's cause and it's purpose - will change as well.

[anandamahadeva~]

Do you people not realize that when we suffer krsna suffers with us, our pain is his pain, that is what draws me to my lord bhagavan sri-krsna that is why we have the ability to choose to come to him or not, he come to us to provide support only if we look with our hearts eye.