Karma is useless.....(from past lives)

[Guest guest]

 

but NO...this is not the case...we are left in the dark and expected to go to Krishna without the slightest idea as to why we suffer...

 

That is truly amazing that you can still make this claim, despite all the detailed replies you have received since this thread began many months ago.

Hari OM:

 

yes, may be it is his Karma to roam with a bag full of questions.

 

but still i think his questions are intriguing and not easy to answer

 

in fact we need to understand so many topics like

 

--- what is memory (and is it the same as Vasana)? where it is stored? how the memory connects to Jiva? how it is seperated at time of birth and death? whether every actions and situations of ALL past lives are stored? or only the most recent and significant are stored? whether memory is purely material (an electro-magentic force) or something else?----

 

before we can attempt to answer his questions.

 

And i am sure that some of this answers would lead to furhter many questions.

 

like Bhakthas who try to understand the God through his personality, attributes (love, mercy..) etc., the philosphers try to understand him through the working of laws (similar to try to understand a person from his X-rays and ECG reports)

 

while the second approach may appear quite funny , but i think , they are not be discouraged even if they are doing for sheer fun, since their interests may one day help them and others.

[Guest guest]

guys

 

lets make this simple - forget karma and past lives

there is no such thing as reincarnation.

you have one soul which is born as human

 

you have one earthly life to prove yourself - be good to all, worship one true god and fight evil

 

upon death the soul transcends to heaven or to hell

 

heaven is a dreamworld where anything you wish for can happen - you can be a bird, tree or dinosaur, make love with whom you choose, be a king, meet all your friends /relatives again so whatever you fancy forever and ever

 

hell - lets just say where you would not want to be !

 

so just do good from now on and it will all (godwilling) workout well for you

 

anything good or bad that comes your way is a test sent by god. Suffering is not punishment for yesterdays deeds - sometimes they can actually be blessings in disguise and vice versa can apply with apparently good things for eg money.

take this analogy - a sportsperson who struggles physically with training will find he/she develops better and faster than someone who does not push themselves.

so having an easy rich life may actually make you lazy, greedy and insensitive

 

whatever comes your way is a gift from god - strive to do better for yourself and others around you with whatever you have and remember to praise god every step of the way to him

[suchandra]

 

guys

 

lets make this simple - forget karma and past lives

there is no such thing as reincarnation.

you have one soul which is born as human

 

you have one earthly life to prove yourself - be good to all, worship one true god and fight evil

 

upon death the soul transcends to heaven or to hell

 

heaven is a dreamworld where anything you wish for can happen - you can be a bird, tree or dinosaur, make love with whom you choose, be a king, meet all your friends /relatives again so whatever you fancy forever and ever

 

hell - lets just say where you would not want to be !

 

so just do good from now on and it will all (godwilling) workout well for you

 

anything good or bad that comes your way is a test sent by god. Suffering is not punishment for yesterdays deeds - sometimes they can actually be blessings in disguise and vice versa can apply with apparently good things for eg money.

take this analogy - a sportsperson who struggles physically with training will find he/she develops better and faster than someone who does not push themselves.

so having an easy rich life may actually make you lazy, greedy and insensitive

 

whatever comes your way is a gift from god - strive to do better for yourself and others around you with whatever you have and remember to praise god every step of the way to him

 

Seems like God speaks directly through you and told you all this absolute knowledge.

Or is it what your brain is saying?

This is what we have right now - so many beliefs and religions as there're people on this planet. At the same time the whole planet is in total chaos, wars, poverty, famine. But still people think that they have perfect knowledge and want to teach. This is called maya, illusion.

[Beggar]

 

guys

lets make this simple - forget karma and past lives

there is no such thing as reincarnation.

you have one soul which is born as human

This statement implies, that animals have no soul, therefore why not eat them? If there is no karma and past lives and there is no such thing as reincarnation, then why is one person born into famine and war in central Africa and another born into a family of movie stars in Beverely Hills?

 

 

you have one earthly life to prove yourself - be good to all, worship one true god and fight evil

Is evil separate from God? Can anything be separate from God? Define evil?

 

upon death the soul transcends to heaven or to hell

 

 

heaven is a dreamworld where anything you wish for can happen - you can be a bird, tree or dinosaur, make love with whom you choose, be a king, meet all your friends /relatives again so whatever you fancy forever and ever

 

Lots of virgins too, I presume. Why do we find ourselves in the position of servant in this world? Everyone serves somebody. The mother serves the child, the president or king serves the people, the butler serves his rich employer. Who doesn't serve? "As below as above"; there is no service position there? There is no supreme master? Can you answer these questions?

[Guest guest]

suchandra are you diagreeing that there is only one true god

and saying that we should not be be good to each other and fight injustice?

 

and why do you expect me to accord with your belief when it is plainly pointless to have past lives (eg when animals cannot better themselves)

no one person or group has perfect knowledge -only the one true god knows better !

-this god is all powerful all knowing master of the universe, the lord of the worlds he has no avatars or partners or demigods and no need to visit the earth - he is god and can control all things at will !

 

but he sent revelation of the truths in scriptures and through specially selected human teachers and there is also evidence of his existence in what he created- just look how well planned the earth water cycle etc is or how complex and advance a human body is compared to latest machine/computer

btw computer modelled on human brain, all was created by god

we humans have godgiven power of intellect (reason logic and emotions) to assess and also manipulate our environment but we need general guidance

on how to live with each other peacefully and succesfully so that the world does not get destroyed in wars and pollution and there can be ample time to discover more and more about the universe and its creator and enjoy the one existence in human body form that we have

guidance as i said has been revealed, it is up to you to reason and choose a path

[Guest guest]

 

This statement implies, that animals have no soul, therefore why not eat them? If there is no karma and past lives and there is no such thing as reincarnation, then why is one person born into famine and war in central Africa and another born into a family of movie stars in Beverely Hills?

 

correct animals have no souls they are part of the earthly creation plan and for human use (NOT human abuse!) examples >what do you think milking cows is or using a horse for transport?

& yes of course we can eat animals if we want but this should not mean eat meat all the time.

 

Is evil separate from God? Can anything be separate from God? Define evil?

as god created everything he also created evil - its the ultimate test

if you resist from evil deeds/thoughts like envy, greed, lies, backbiting and adultery you prove

 

upon death the soul transcends to heaven or to hell

 

 

Lots of virgins too, I presume. Why do we find ourselves in the position of servant in this world? Everyone serves somebody. The mother serves the child, the president or king serves the people, the butler serves his rich employer. Who doesn't serve? "As below as above"; there is no service position there? There is no supreme master? Can you answer these questions?

 

whats wrong with this vision of heaven - you are free to do as you will what more would you want?

-please tell me what happens when you pass the cycle of rebirths and enter 'nirvana' state -what do you do then? how will it be?

 

in summary my view to karma/reincarnation - you have one created soul, it knows itself -what it has done in its entire one life, it feels and retains intellect and upon death of the human body, it still lives and knows this, then it gets judged and the the soul lives forever based on that judgement made by god

[Guest guest]

 

This statement implies, that animals have no soul, therefore why not eat them?

 

Is that why you do not eat animals? I thought you would not eat animals because it is inhumane to cause pain and suffering to the animal. Do you not eat animals out of compassion or do you not eat animals for religious reasons? To put it differently, if your religion sanctioned meat-eating would you go ahead and give higher precedence to religion and eat meat not caring for the pain you are causing to animals?

 

 

If there is no karma and past lives and there is no such thing as reincarnation, then why is one person born into famine and war in central Africa and another born into a family of movie stars in Beverely Hills?

 

Perhaps because not everyone can be born in Beverly hills as there aren’t enough babies being conceived in that city to admit all souls? Or in general, there aren’t enough wealthy families in the world to cover all the waiting souls. Why should past lives be the reason? If you take the past life position, then please explain why you were born the first time and also what you were doing before that for eternity. You were not born for eternity and suddenly you took birth. Why?

 

 

Everyone serves somebody. The mother serves the child, the president or king serves the people, the butler serves his rich employer. Who doesn't serve?

 

Well, by your logic, the child is not serving anyone and the rich employer is not serving anyone. We can find more…

 

I am not being sarcastic. Just trying to point out something here. The position you have taken above leaves a number of questions unanswered and a number of questions with unconvincing answers. With this, how are you sure that your answers to the basic questions of life are correct? Perhaps they are wrong? Perhaps there are no answers to these questions? Questions like why are we here, how, what happen after death?

[Guest guest]

 

in summary my view to karma/reincarnation - you have one created soul, it knows itself -what it has done in its entire one life, it feels and retains intellect and upon death of the human body, it still lives and knows this, then it gets judged and the the soul lives forever based on that judgement made by god

 

You are mixing up the Christian concept of salvation with the Hindu concept of karma. Karma is a product of the soul’s actions and will change based only on the soul’s actions. God does not play a role here. This can be confusing and not easy to understand.

 

This is more in line with Buddhism. However, to combine Karma and Theism, the Hindus try to bring in a theistic element into Karma, but on close inspection you will see they do not violate the law of Karma, really making God redundant. If you choose to worship God, you are functioning in the mode of goodness and you will be elevated. You can reach the same level by diligently performing your duty. There are different ways to get there, all the ways in line with the law of Karma.

 

In short, there is no judgment in a religion which believes in Karma.

[Beggar]

 

Perhaps because not everyone can be born in Beverly hills as there aren’t enough babies being conceived in that city to admit all souls? Or in general, there aren’t enough wealthy families in the world to cover all the waiting souls. Why should past lives be the reason? If you take the past life position, then please explain why you were born the first time and also what you were doing before that for eternity. You were not born for eternity and suddenly you took birth. Why?

 

 

 

 

by Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja

 

How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information.

There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha . Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.

The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world. They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

<center> iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa </center>

 

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the

jiva:

hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."

 

At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.

Why has the soul come to the world of exploitation" and not the world of dedication? That should be attributed to his innate nature, which is endowed with free will. It is a free choice. This is substantiated in the Bhagavad-gita (5. 14):

<center> na kartrtvam na karmani

lokasya srjati prabhuh

na karma-phala-samyogam

svabhavas tu pravartate </center>

 

"The soul is responsible for his entrance into the land of exploitation."

 

The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and consciousness means endowed with freedom. Because the soul is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world. So, the responsibility is with the individual soul.

Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Cakravarti, asked our spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, "Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva ?" Prabhupada told him, ""You are fighting for freedom. Don't you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter." Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ""We want freedom."' They replied, "You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you." But finally, he told them, "We want the freedom to do wrong." So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong.

Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite" our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate" and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks" the species have been divided" from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved."

[Guest guest]

Read the last line as,

 

In short, there is no final judgment of the soul in a religion which believes in Karma. Judgment is an ongoing process.

[Guest guest]

Beggar quotes

 

Within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is <u>somehow</u> disturbed and movement begins…

 

Thank you. This is precisely what I was asking about. The underlining is by me.

 

The usage of somehow implies there is no logic and no reason. Similarly I say, somehow we are here. There is no reason behind our existence; no reason why one lives in a 15 million dollar ocean front property while another is starving in Sudan. It happens somehow. We can simply accept this reality and make the best of what we have.

 

Once we take the “somehow” position, we can claim anything as no justification is necessary. Somehow, there is a solar system; somehow the giraffe has an unusually long neck…

[Beggar]

Beggar quotes

 

Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins.

 

Thank you. This is precisely what I was asking about. The underlining is by me.

 

The usage of somehow implies there is no logic and no reason. Similarly I say, somehow we are here. There is no reason behind our existence; no reason why one lives in a 15 million dollar ocean front property while another is starving in Sudan. It happens somehow. We can simply accept this reality and make the best of what we have.

 

Once we take the “somehow” position, we can claim anything as no justification is necessary. Somehow, there is a solar system; somehow the giraffe has an unusually long neck…

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja's use of the word "somehow" in this case, is idiomatic to Indianized Victorian English. You are taking "somehow" literally because you are not familiar with this idiom. Here the word somehow does not mean unknown. It means that a "germinal idea of domination" exists in a latent form with the jiva who in a sleep-like state within the brahmajyoti. This is a very subtle concept that is so subltle that our language only gives a crude approximation of the actual reality. Therefore he idomatically uses the word "somehow".

 

 

So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

<center> iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa </center> "Two principles in a crude form awaken in the jiva: hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."

[Guest guest]

all things have a purpose

 

to say there is no judgement in karma is ridiculous - karma has a purpose

 

christian/muslim concept of salvation is to do good in this life and therefore karma applies once

 

karma/judgement based on past deeds can only occur if there is someone to weigh up all the deeds and make a decision so how can god be ruled out of this activity - is it self assessment?

 

but still what happens when the soul escapes the cycle of rebirth - what does it do? how does it feel?

 

like a dream you can control, paradise for christians involves being in a blissful state where you can have/do anything you wish and free from disease, threat of pain poverty etc.. and meet with likewise souls from all parts of the universe

 

what do hindus believe then?

[Guest guest]

(copied from Krishna.com)

Spiritual World

The Vedas tell us that beyond the limited material world is the infinite spiritual world, the abode of Krishna and His expansions, and our original home as well. Everyone there is eternal and absorbed in ever-increasing happiness.

 

Transcendence is not static, but full of dynamic variety and rich with spiritual qualities. Spirit by nature is conscious, and every aspect of the spiritual world—plants, animals, people, hills, rivers, houses—is a fully God-conscious person.

 

The main feature of the spiritual world is that everyone there loves God (Krishna and His expansions) with the fullness of their being. When we purify our hearts and awaken our innate love for Krishna, we become qualified to enter the spiritual world to take up our eternal service to the Lord. Once attaining the spiritual world, we souls never have to return to the material world.

 

"That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns—that is My supreme abode." –Sri Krishna, Bhagavad-gita 8.21

Three Spiritual Realms

There are three primary destinations in the spiritual world, which has innumerable spiritual planets and expands without limit.

 

1. The topmost planet in the spiritual realm is Goloka, Krishna’s personal home. In Goloka the Lord lives like a simple cowherd boy, and His devotees serve Him with the sweetness of intimate personal relationships. Goloka is larger than all other spiritual planets combined and is far above them.

 

When Krishna comes to this world He brings Goloka with Him, as He did 5,000 years ago, showing all the extraordinary, beautiful features of God’s original home.

2. The other planets in the spiritual world are called the Vaikuntha planets. Lord Krishna's expansions as four-armed Vishnu rule these planets like kings, worshiped in awe and reverence by innumerable devotees.

 

3. All the spiritual planets float in what is called the brahmajyoti, the spiritual effulgence of the Lord's transcendental body.

 

Devotees immersed in pure love for Krishna or Vishnu reside in Goloka and the Vaikuntha planets. Self-realized souls who have yet to awaken their natural love for the Lord may temporarily reside in the brahmajyoti.

 

Internal Potency: Nature of the Spiritual World

* potency for existence

* potency for knowledge

* potency for pleasure

 

The potency for eternal existence manifests the spiritual planets and the bodies of all the inhabitants. It gives shape to the unlimited variegatedness of the land, villages, forests, hills, and pastime places in the spiritual world.

 

The potency for knowledge manifests all the hopes, imagination, intelligence and judgments devotees use to serve the Lord and exchange in never-ending, relishable relationships with Him. The arrangements for all the loving pastimes enacted by the Lord and His devotees are regulated by this potency.

 

The potency for pleasure completely captivates Krishna Himself. This energy is represented by Radha, Krishna’s female counterpart. Radha is the embodiment of highest love for Krishna. Love captivates Krishna's heart completely and gives everyone in the spiritual world the highest pleasure.

 

Description of Vaikuntha

 

From Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.15.16–23)

 

“In those Vaikuntha planets there are many forests which are very auspicious. In those forests the trees are wish-fulfilling trees, and in all seasons they are filled with flowers and fruits because everything in the Vaikuntha planets is spiritual and personal.

 

“In the Vaikuntha planets the inhabitants fly in their airplanes, accompanied by their wives and consorts, and eternally sing of the character and activities of the Lord, which are always devoid of all inauspicious qualities. While singing the glories of the Lord, they deride even the presence of the blossoming madhavi flowers, which are fragrant and laden with honey.

 

“When the king of bees hums in a high pitch, singing the glories of the Lord, there is a temporary lull in the noise of the pigeon, the cuckoo, the crane, the cakravaka, the swan, the parrot, the partridge, and the peacock. Such transcendental birds stop their own singing simply to hear the glories of the Lord.

 

“Although flowering plants like the mandara, kunda, kurabaka, utpala, campaka, arna, punnaga, nagakeshara, bakula, lily, and parijata are full of transcendental fragrance, they are still conscious of the austerities performed by Tulasi, for Tulasi is given special preference by the Lord, who garlands Himself with Tulasi leaves.

 

“The inhabitants of Vaikuntha travel in their airplanes made of lapis lazuli, emerald, and gold. Although crowded by their consorts, who have large hips and beautiful smiling faces, the male inhabitants cannot be stimulated to passion by their mirth and beautiful charms.

 

“The ladies in the Vaikuntha planets are as beautiful as the goddess of fortune herself. Such transcendentally beautiful ladies, their hands playing with lotuses and their leg bangles tinkling, are sometimes seen sweeping the marble walls, which are bedecked at intervals with golden borders, in order to receive the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

“The goddesses of fortune worship the Lord in their own gardens by offering Tulasi leaves on the coral-paved banks of transcendental reservoirs of water. While offering worship to the Lord, they can see on the water the reflection of their beautiful faces with raised noses, and it appears that they have become more beautiful because of the Lord’s kissing their faces.

 

“It is very much regrettable that unfortunate people do not discuss the description of the Vaikuntha planets.”

 

Description of Goloka

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam we find descriptions of Lord Krishna’s eternal home, such as this one:

 

“Goloka, also called Vrindavana, is always full of cows. There are many waterfalls, which are always pouring water, and the sound is so sweet that it covers the sound of the crickets. And because water flows all over, the forest always looks very green and beautiful.

 

“The inhabitants of Vrindavana are never disturbed by the scorching heat of the sun or high summer temperatures. The lakes of Vrindavana are surrounded by green grasses, and various kinds of lotus flowers bloom there. The air blowing in Vrindavana carries the aromatic pollen of those lotus flowers. When the particles of water from the waves of the Yamuna River, the lakes, and the waterfalls touch the bodies of the inhabitants of Vrindavana, they automatically feel a cooling effect.

 

“Vrindavana is such a nice place. Flowers are always blooming, and there are even various kinds of decorated deer. Birds are chirping, peacocks are crowing and dancing, and bees are humming. The cuckoos there sing nicely in five kinds of tunes.

 

“Krishna, the reservoir of pleasure, blowing His flute, accompanied by His elder brother Balarama and the other cowherd boys and the cows, enters the beautiful forest of Vrindavana to enjoy the atmosphere. They walk into the midst of newly grown leaves of trees whose flowers resembled peacock feathers. They are garlanded by those flowers and decorated with saffron chalk. Sometimes they are dancing and singing and sometimes wrestling with one another. While Krishna dances, some of the cowherd boys sing and others play on flutes; some bugle on buffalo horns or clap their hands, praising Krishna, ‘Dear brother, You are dancing very nicely.’ ”

 

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending cows yielding all desires in abodes built with spiritual gems and surrounded by millions of purpose trees. He is always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds and thousands of goddesses of fortune.” –Sri Brahma-samhita 5.29

[Guest guest]

Well, by your logic, the child is not serving anyone and the rich employer is not serving anyone. We can find more.

 

Everyone serves someone, or at the very least, some "thing." The rich employer serves his family. Or his mistress. Or his dog. He may even say that he is serving society by providing jobs. He has to pay taxes, which means he is serving his government. The child serves his parents (go pick up your toys, Timmy, then come here and give me a hug!) He serves his family (grandparents, etc) by providing them with someone to adore, express love and affection. The child also serves his own senses: "Mommy, I want some candy. Give me this, give me that." If our senses are uncontrolled, they are considered to be our "masters."

[Guest guest]

OP here....

 

Can we please get back to the main topic.... This has just turned into a debate on christianity, heaven/hell, reincarnation...etc.

 

Since many of you think my questions are "ignorant" due to your inability to find the answers, then lets start with the basics like another guest said..

 

How is memory connected to the Jiva?

 

maybe after answering this we can find the actual capacity that we are allowed to carry with us over births...

 

-Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Eternal Relationship

by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: One must be given admission, in order to enter into the Lord’s own family of servitors. That is diksa, initiation. Through diksa, one receives divya-jnanam, divine knowledge, enlightenment; he can understand that “Krsna is my Guardian, He is my all-in-all.” And leaving all other duties, one promises to go towards Krsna, for His service. The function of diksa is to impart such knowledge.

And the disciple himself also invites this knowledge: “I belong to Krsna, wholesale. I am His property, He can use me in any way. I am not free to leave Him; my fate is all within His service, within His area of service, and not outside.”

Krsna Himself gives us this assurance: “You are My own. Your interest is My interest; My interest is your interest. We are one and the same, there.” And Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu tells Sanatana Goswami:

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma samarpana,

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

(Cc. Antya. 4:192)

“At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.”

The Lord accepts us as His own, and takes the responsibility of everything for us, good and bad. And according to our surrender, such kind of consciousness also comes, it awakens, in us. Divya-jnana is real knowledge; it is proper knowledge, absolute knowledge, independent of all our different interests, our separate interests. From the absolute standpoint, He has got full right over everything, and over me also; and from my side, I also will think I am to be used by Him, exclusively, and by none else— this sort of transaction, is diksa. Divya-jnana or divine knowledge, the divine conception, means to understand this and to do accordingly. Without this, we are suffering from avidya, ajnana— from ignorance, from a false notion about the environment. We are ignorant of the proper estimation of the environment and ourselves.

What is the cause of this? It is separate interest. I have got separate interest, and so many others have also got their separate interest, so there are many interests, not harmony in One, the One interest, Central interest. This is at the root of our ajnana, our ignorance. And when we are conscious of the common Centre, and that the Centre is good— it is Home, it is beautiful, it is sweet, and all such things— then we get a proper estimation of our connection with the Whole; we get divya-jnana, real knowledge, divine knowledge.

Devotee: What is the meaning of ‘eternal relationship’? It is said that the disciple is eternally related with his guru. When one takes initiation from guru, is that relationship eternal?

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: First we must understand that our existence, the very nature of our existence, is as potency- that is, subordinate, of subordinate character. The soul is of marginal potency, tatastha-sakti, and as such, no direct connection with Krsna is possible in our constitutional position. But only through some agent- through guru, the Lord’s representative- we are to have His connection, and not directly. Since we are tatastha-sakti, since we come from the marginal potency, we must connect with Krsna through His internal potency. In the internal potency, all are serving the Lord permanently, eternally.

And in that internal potency, there is gradation. There we find conception of personality, and also hierarchy: those very near to Krsna, those still closer, and those closest; and those who are a little far from Him, and further still. There is a hierarchy in this way, just as in a beaurocracy all are not very intimate with the king, but some are near, and others further away. The internal sakti, the potency, of Krsna, is like this: the nearer to the Source, its intensity is increased, progressively.

Just as near the sun, the heat is more, the light is more, and the further away, though there is still light and heat, their intensity becomes less and less, so similarly, near Krsna there is more serving spirit, and further away from Him that tendency becomes lessened- in serving, in affection, all such attributes. Krsna’s internal potency is such: the nearer to the inside, to the Centre, there is more interest for the Centre, and further away that ‘Central interest’ becomes less, it becomes a little slack. All those of the internal potency are subservient to their higher service-group; but the intensity of service-attachment may be more, or less. Such hierarchy is there. And the Lord Himself is in the extreme position- He is an Autocrat. We are to adjust ourselves with such an Autocratic Centre.

We must be prepared for anything: anything from the environment may come to us, but we are to face it with optimism. That is the key to success in our life. The highest advice is given in Srimad Bhagavatam:

tat te ‘nukampam susumiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidhanam namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya bhak

(Srimad Bhagavatam 10:14:8)

“One who, in the hope of achieving Your grace, tolerates all kinds of adverse conditions due to the karma of his past deeds, and passes his days practising devotion to You with his mind, words and body, is truly eligible for becoming your unalloyed devotee.”

We have no ability to interfere with the environment; to do so will only be a useless waste of energy. Rather, we must try to correct ourselves, so that we can adjust with the circumstances we find surrounding us. We have been advised that the best estimation we can make about the environment, of what is coming to me from the environment, is to see it, to understand it, as a grant.

A grant means something which is given. But from where is this grant coming? It is coming from my Lord; and He is my Guardian. He is Supreme, He is Autocrat. So, what is coming from Him is His grace. We are living by His grace, always, and not as a matter of ‘right’. That we are living at all, that we are alive, we exist- this is not our birthright! If we exist at all, or not- it does not matter to the Infinite Whole. So, tat te nukampam susumiksamano: whatever is coming, it is His grace, it is not earned by my right, my ability, or my qualification. All and everything that is coming, and every part of it, is a grace coming to me.Our well-guided estimation about the environment will be such.

And we must be satisfied with whatever grant we get. It is not a matter of right; we are not to see with the eye of any right, whether we are getting our own ‘quota’ or not. “Am I getting my own portion, my own share?”- this should never be our attitude. At the same time, we must try to see that whatever trouble we find, is self-acquired: “Due to my own defective position, I am in such a condition. I am so low, so mean.” And our vanity will have to disappear forever, when we realise fully our dependence on His grace: “I have got no position; I am fully dependent on His grace. My whole existence, whole prospect, everything- it is only on account of His grace.”

Mahaprabhu said, krsnera nitya-dasa: consider yourself, know yourself, to be the slave of the Supreme Lord. A slave has got no rights; he is property, the property of another. Like animals who are someone’s property- like cows, or cats, or dogs- our position is such. The slave has no rights; but at the same time, by his master’s grace, he can enter the highest place, highest position. Such is the prospect of the slave of the Supreme Lord, of Krsna.

And it is possible only through service. Service means, to satisfy Him- not to satisfy me, not service for myself. But when I am determined to exist only for Him, to maintain my existence for Him, when I can think: “I am for Him, and everything is for Him”- then I have got some position. As Hegel told, “Reality is by Itself and for Itself”, so, everything is for Krsna, it is for Himself; and when I am for Him, then I have got some position. And as much as I can dedicate myself to Him, to being for Him, so much of a concrete or substantial position I may acquire. My position depends on my rendering sincere service to the Prime Cause. Mahaprabhu said:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya- krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’, bhedabheda-prakasa

(Cc Madhya 20:108)

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, as a molecular particle of sunshine is one with, and different from, the sun.”

The soul is of the marginal potency. From the independent standpoint, it can be seen that he has something in common with the Lord, and something different from Him; and such a position is inconceivable. Krsna is all-in-all, and the soul has a dependent position, as His potency. The Owner is He, and if we are conscious of that fact, we can thrive. We can improve our position, and we may also get the higher position, we may enter into the higher, most confidential service, only if we can satisfy the permanent servitors of that highest conception.

Who is the highest servitor, Who can serve Him best- they should be the subject of our highest reach. Our aim should be to enter into Their group. And that is Radharani’s group. To enter into Her group, Her camp, Her association- that is radha-dasya.

Service is our life, it is everything for us. We thrive only there. And whenever we want to do the work of a master, we deviate from that; we go away, we degrade. By serving, we live, and by trying to make ourselves master, by lording it over others, we die.

So, you will have to ‘die to live’- by dying to your false ego, your self-aggrandizing tendency, you can live, live in the world of service, divine service. Everyone is trying to live in this world avoiding death, physical death. They are trying to ‘live without death’, and that of course is not possible. Just as it is not possible in the ordinary sense to live without death, so you also, who are aspiring for divine life, don’t try to live, without death! Die now! Die, to both your exploiting and renouncing tendencies, to really live in service divine.

Don’t try to live in the plane of exploitation; that type of ‘living’, in our estimation, is to face death. But to die for Him, for Krsna, is really to live. The position of the Centre, and our relation with the Centre, is such. The Hegelian theory, that we should ‘die to live’, because ‘Reality is by Itself and for Itself’- it is very applicable in Vaisnavism. Our false ego should be dissolved, and the ego of self-searching should awake. And, God-searching is self-searching: to search for Krsna is really to search for our own interest, our own higher interest. If you search for Krsna, your own searching-interest is also included therein, it is represented there. So, only search for Krsna- and with the spirit of service, not with the spirit of enjoyment.

The ego, the false ego, must be dissolved. Bhidyate hrdaya-granthih: there is a knot in the heart, and it must be cut asunder (Sri.Bhag.11:20:30) ‘Ego’ means, the stored collection of separate interests of different types. Just as when an aeroplane has crashed, the authorities search in the wreckage, trying to find the ‘black box’; the record of the aeroplane’s entire flight is there. Similarly, our material ego is like our black box; our ‘plane’ is passing through different lives, but the box is there, with the recording. There we can trace in a person from where he is coming, and to where he will go.

His karma is recorded there; the result of his karma in its most subtle form is reserved there, in that recording box; and examining that, it can be understood where from he has come. There are specialists who can read: “O, he came from the tiger species”, or “He came from an insect”, or “He came from the horse, his previous birth was as horse”; or from some other section, other species. And they can also see: “It is possible that in his next life he will have to go to such-and-such place, his destination will be there.” This can all be traced, in the ego.

And that ego should be totally dissolved, so that our soul’s future destination will be in the spiritual existence, and nowhere in the material world. There are so many planes of life in the world, in the universe of three dimensions- bhur-, bhuvah-, svah-, maha-, jana-, tapa-, satyaloka- but our goal, our destination, should not be in any of them. Neither should we go to viraja, the area beyond all the qualities of material nature, nor to brahmaloka, the non-differentiated world of spiritual light. Our aim will be only: “I want to have a ticket for Goloka, for Vrndavan. I want to go there to live; I have heard, and I feel, that there is my true home, the home of my previous generations...” Such kinds of feelings will come in us. When our inner self will awaken, we will feel, “I only want to go there.” And Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu, they are distributing the ticket to that land.

The inner liking is rucih, taste; taste is the vital unit, and not knowledge, not the brain. Mahaprabhu gave recognition to the inner taste. That is our capital. That is the realm of the heart; there the brain has nothing to do, no function.

The brain may sanction something, but the heart may take me towards some other direction; in this way we are generally guided by our heart, not by our brain. Brain cannot control everything; to a certain extent only, it may do so. But heart is the innermost guiding principle; the taste, inner taste, is guiding us, it guides us to our goal. So, we must be more concerned with that.

To improve our taste, we only need good association- association with the sadhus, with those who have got Krsna consciousness within them. In the world of devotion it is not the brain that is valuable, but earnest, sincere hankering for Krsna. And Krsna is Reality the Beautiful. But He is also Autocrat; that must also be our consideration, that the highest cannot be subservient to anything. This is clear, and reasonable also: because Krsna is the highest, because He holds the highest position, He should not be dependent on any other thing. And yet, He is dependent: He is dependent only on those who have that very conception about Him- that He is the highest. With them, naturally ‘oneness’ is there- the common interest binds them together. There is binding, attraction- the Attractor and the attracted. And Krsna is all-attracting.

There is Krsna, and His own. And when we have some connection with a real devotee of Krsna we have got a tangible position. Otherwise, we are nowhere, we are lost, lost in the infinite. But whenever we come in contact with a devotee, with an agent of His who is moving here in this world for His interest, then we have found some substantial position.

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata bija

(Cc Madhya 19:151)

“Wandering throughout the material universe, the very fortunate living entity who receives the grace of Guru and Krsna receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.”

We are wandering endlessly in this universe. When we come in connection with a devotee of Krsna, then we get some hope, some support- some safe position.

Without such substantial connection, we are lost, lost in infinity. Then all our movement here- from where we have come, to where we are going, what we are doing- all is going on endlessly, but to no point, to no good. When connected with local interest, such movement has got no value in relation to the Infinite, the interest of the Centre. It is like a ball being kicked: with one kick the ball is running in one direction, with another kick it is going a different way; kicked from different directions it is going now this side, now that. Our position is like that: a ball under the kick. But when we come to have association with one who has got some substantial connection with the real Centre, then we have acquired some tangible position; we are counted within the calculation from the Centre, we have got some position there, we are traceable. Otherwise, we are nowhere, we have no position. Our position is untraceable; we are wandering, passing through the universe in such a way.

This is the position of all souls within the universe. From this viewpoint even Brahma, the creator of this material world, has got no tangible position. The position of Guru Brahma, of Brahma in his function as Guru, that has a different consideration; but Brahma in his general function as the creator of any solar system, may not have any tangible position in the universal calculation.

When Brahma approached Krsna, to meet Him, Krsna first sent His servant to ask him, “Which Brahma has come?” And Brahma thought, “What is this? Is there any other Brahma? I am all-in-all, the creator of all and everything, whatever we see, we feel.” Still, he had to tell Krsna, through His servant, “It is the four-headed Brahma, father of Sanaka, who has come to meet You.” Then he was taken inside the hall, and He was filled with wonder at what he saw there: “O, so many Brahmas are here! Hundred-faced, thousand-faced, million-faced Brahmas are here, and with their big and gorgeous figures they are commanding bigger, greater universes than me. The creators of so many greater solar systems are here!” He was astonished.

So the Infinite can accomodate everything. And we are to make some tangible connection with that Infinite, we are to find some substantial position in relation to Him. But what direction will we take to go there? How are we to make such progress? It is only through love- love and affection.

Affection is beyond calculation; it is existing in a plane beyond calculation. It is that force which is controlling without the need of any brain: a kind of intuition. The affection of the mother for the child- it is found everywhere, even in the birds, the beasts, the insects. The parent bird comes with some intuitive affection for the fledglings when they are growing, to feed and nurture them, then she goes away. In this way the intuitive force of affection is going on, to conduct the world’s affairs. It is unaccountable; from where it comes, we do not know, but it comes to do the duty, the service, and disappears. That sort of tendency comes from the area of affection, of love. And we are to take shelter under that wave, wherever we find it available. That can help us in such a helpless condition as we find ourselves, wandering throughout creation.

And the human brain, when misdirected, is going to destroy the whole world by inventing atomic energy! The discovery of atomic energy, for mass destruction. We are so ‘civilised’, in the negative side. But civilisation in the negative side is suicidal. To kill one another- is such civilisation a development? Should we call this improvement, or development? It is rather the product of the satanic brain. Satan is not a desirable thing; it is an indirect, undesirable force. Killing, destroying, destruction- it is satanic activity. Those of such satanic brain are agents of destruction.

But the constructive thing is affection, love, sincerity, self-giving, surrendering. All these are based on surrender; love is always based on surrender. And that high thing, that noble thing, we shall try to imbibe. The most noble thing is self-giving. To give is nobleness; to assert, to exploit, is satanic.And to surrender for higher things, is godly.

And, further, Mahaprabhu also told, “Who are you, to give? Already you belong to Him. And how do you belong to Him? Not by any contact, but by your nature, you are a servant. You are krsna-dasa, a slave of Krsna. By your very existence, you are subservient to Him, you are His servant- that is your nature. And you want the opposite thing: you want to become a Krsna, to become a God, you want to take His position?

Your aspiration is just the opposite, and because you cannot thrive in this attempt, because you cannot become that Krsna, then you want to commit suicide, to enter the renunciation zone; you want liberation, mukti. You want to enter into the non-differentiated area and to never rise from there again, to enter eternal slumber, samadhi, brahma-sayujya - all these unnatural things. But come forward in the natural way, knowing that you are a servant, and in that position you will thrive.” This is Mahaprabhu’s advice.

We are so much accustomed to getting our interest satisfied in the world of exploitation, we are so much conditioned in that attempt, that we cannot think that, really, it is by serving that we live. By dying to our concocted self as an exploiter, we can live: this very thing we can’t understand. By giving we get, we thrive, and by taking we go down, we lose. But we are so much conditioned in the thought of the opposite thing, that by amassing, by gathering everything to ourselves we will become big, we are unable to think how it is possible that by dissolution, by giving ourselves, by offering ourselves, we can be greater, more noble. But the solution is in that very thing: we must die, to live.

bhidyate hrdaya-granthis, chidyante sarva samsayah

ksiyante casya karmani, drsta evatmanisvare

(Srimad Bhagavatam 11:20:30)

“When the soul directly beholds Me as the Supreme Soul within all souls, the knot of mundane ego in the heart is pierced, all his doubts are destroyed, and the chain of fruitive actions is annihilated.”

When our whole ‘separate-interest-box’ is dissolved, we will find ourselves identified with the same interest as our Lord; that we share the same interest, common interest, with Him. We will feel: “My interest is one with His, and according to my might, I am to do my duty.” That is normal life; it is a life which has got recognition as normal, in relation to the Organic Whole.

And the attempt to properly adjust ourselves, is also a very important work in our striving to arrive at the conclusion of our life’s purpose. We must consider: “How are we to utilise ourselves?” We are presently in a perplexed condition, and perplexity means dissatisfaction with our present circumstances. How to find out how I can be utilised in the service of the Lord? This requires from us proper adjustment.

If the Lord says to us, “Take your seat here”, but I want to run hither and thither for some other services, but still the Lord says “No, you stay here, sit here, by my side”- what should we do? Should we sit, or say “No, I want to do some work?” We will have to sit as He has asked, to satisfy Him.

And yet, this is also one kind of temperament of a devotee: “I can’t sit idly by Your side, some sort of service I must be given, must be given to me”; and that also is not to be rejected, in every case. The main principle is that in the good connection, everything may be good. It is the connection which is all-important: Krsna’s connection, Krsna consciousness. In different ways, different persons may go on with their service. It is not that everything must be stale or stereotyped.

Our sincere attitude for the truth is what is all-important. Our searching mood- krsnanusandana, to search for Krsna, and none else- such temperament is very valuable. “I am not satisfied by this thing or that, by so many things, but my heart, high heart, is aching for Him. I have heard from many sources about Krsna; I want to be very near to Him.”

Then, to be nearer to His devotees- that is still more tangible, and more real. When we have got some practical faith in the association of His real servitors, then we acquire something substantial in our path of progress. By Him, that association is made possible, and available, for helping us. So the position of one who has got abstract attraction for Krsna is considered to be primary; but one who has got aspiration for Krsna’s servants, rather than for Krsna Himself, he is in a better position.

isvare tad-adhinesu, balisesu dvisatsu ca

prema-maitri-krpopeksa, yah karoti sa madhyamah

(Srimad Bhagavatam 11:2:46)

“The devotee in the intermediate stage of devotional service is called a madhyama-adhikari. He loves the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to the innocent and disregards the envious.”

arcayam eva haraye, pujam yah sraddhayehate

na tad-bhaktesu canyesu, sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah

(Srimad Bhagavatam 11:2:47)

“A devotee who faithfully worships the Deity, but does not properly respect the Vaisnavas or the people in general is called a materialistic devotee, and is considered to be in the lowest position of devotional service.”

The beginners in devotion want Krsna, and not His devotees, but those who have some tendency to attain friendship and association with the devotees of Krsna have something tangible, something real. That is a higher position, because by such aspiration their real life, spiritual life, is insured. Na tad-bhaktesu canyesu, sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah - those who are practising devotion, who want to cultivate Krsna consciousness through worship of the arca-murti, the Deity, or through reading books, or in any other way, but who are avoiding the bona-fide servitors of the Lord are in the ordinary, primary stage. But when some practical sympathy is felt in the heart for Krsna’s devotees, that fortunate person has got something tangible in their life; and their position is more reliable, more safe, and more progressive.

And when nothing but the Krsna conception can satisfy the devotee- when whatever is coming to him, all the waves coming to him from every direction, whether good or bad, are connected with Krsna, are all concerning Krsna- then his position is better still. To the devotee in that stage, ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are both good because he sees everything as connected with the Centre.

For example: it may happen that a devotee may leave the Mission, the devotional association. By his good fortune, he came to connect with the Mission, but now he is going away; such a circumstance is bad, that is, it is unpalatable, an unfortunate thing. And another devotee who feels pain, whose heart is pained to see such a bad or unfortunate circumstance, he is in a bona-fide position. His heart is aching for that man who has fallen from Krsna consciousness, so, despite the unpleasant circumstances, his position is good. And conversely, when so many are coming to preach Krsna consciousness, carrying the flag of Mahaprabhu from corner to corner of this world, that same devotees’ heart is feeling pleasure, and that is all good.

So in Krsna consciousness, both good and bad are good. Anything relating to Krsna consciousness- good or bad, satisfaction or dissatisfaction, but all concerning Krsna-that is good.

[Guest guest]

 

suchandra are you diagreeing that there is only one true god

and saying that we should not be be good to each other and fight injustice?

 

and why do you expect me to accord with your belief when it is plainly pointless to have past lives (eg when animals cannot better themselves)

no one person or group has perfect knowledge -only the one true god knows better !

-this god is all powerful all knowing master of the universe, the lord of the worlds he has no avatars or partners or demigods and no need to visit the earth - he is god and can control all things at will !

 

but he sent revelation of the truths in scriptures and through specially selected human teachers and there is also evidence of his existence in what he created- just look how well planned the earth water cycle etc is or how complex and advance a human body is compared to latest machine/computer

btw computer modelled on human brain, all was created by god

we humans have godgiven power of intellect (reason logic and emotions) to assess and also manipulate our environment but we need general guidance

on how to live with each other peacefully and succesfully so that the world does not get destroyed in wars and pollution and there can be ample time to discover more and more about the universe and its creator and enjoy the one existence in human body form that we have

guidance as i said has been revealed, it is up to you to reason and choose a path

 

Hari OM:

 

You seem to make lot of logical statements, let us see if you can answer this question, all previous Abhrahams of this forum has simply skipped or disappeared from this forum on this question

 

 

--If there is only one life, and this life forms the basis of Judgement , the Judgement would be permanent and eternal

 

--- Then what do you say about child death , how to judge a human who has died less than 5 years old

 

---Whether all the children will be directly sent to Heaven or Hell, either way don't you think there is no real basis for their judgement, they can't study, read or hear about God, properly understand and practice religion before the death. So they are judged even without giving an opportunity to proove themselves?

 

i sincerely hope some good and relevant answers comes from you for this question and break the continuous abhramic silence on this topic

 

wish you all the best

[Guest guest]

 

Hari OM:

 

--- Then what do you say about child death , how to judge a human who has died less than 5 years old

wish you all the best

 

any person who is below age of puberty (generally agreed age12) is considered a child/innocent and this person is spared any judgment - heaven is their destination -godwilling

(and in any such short span of life even up to 16yrs of age there has hopefully not been enough time to gather together any sins of a serious nature!)

 

question remains why god should allow a birth to take place, only to take the soul back so soon

 

again and although harsh, this is meant as a trial for the remainder of people on earth (death poverty disease money fame are all products of earthly existence by which humans are tested)

 

but only the one god of all mankind knows best

[Guest guest]

 

question remains why god should allow a birth to take place, only to take the soul back so soon

 

again and although harsh, this is meant as a trial for the remainder of people on earth (death poverty disease money fame are all products of earthly existence by which humans are tested)

 

but only the one god of all mankind knows best

 

Although the laws of action and reaction play out and people carry samskaric, subconcious impressions between lifetimes in the macrocosm, humans are also tested by death, poverty, disease, money, and fame etc. That is why in early Christianity and in some Judaic Orthodoxies, reincarnation was part of their dogma.There are also certain modern Christian sects that believe in reincarnation and transmigration of the soul. So why a specific event occurs in one's life or in a large group, i.e. a big disaster, nobody but some kind of saint or mystic could possibly know the answer. Generally as our mothers told us, "God only knows". If we think we know for sure then it is our arrogance, only. To endlessly debate these topics is a form of religious misbehaviour. Its more real to walk the walk than just talk the talk.

[Guest guest]

any person who is below age of puberty (generally agreed age12) is considered a child/innocent and this person is spared any judgment - heaven is their destination -godwilling (and in any such short span of life even up to 16yrs of age there has hopefully not been enough time to gather together any sins of a serious nature!)

 

The inherent flaw with this assumption is that it paves the way for abortion and other mortal crimes against children, being that they get a free pass to "eternal salvation", due to their presumed innocence before the arbitrary age of 12, (or 16.) In fact, if salvation is indeed the goal of the Christian's life, killing these children would (gasp!) almost seem to be welcomed, if not recommended. After all, the children (including the unborn) would be guaranteed eternal life, and not run the risk of losing their "innocent" status and growing up to be adults who may then reject Christ and go to an "eternal hell." Obviously, this is a horrific scenario, but all it takes are a few loony "martyrs" who are willing to sacrifice themselves and go to hell in order to send their kids to Heaven. And even then, since "works" (good or bad) are NOT the criteria for salvation, according to modern fundamentalist Christians, then even they can be saved in the end, if they become "born again" by accepting Jesus as their Saviour.

[Guest guest]

 

question remains why god should allow a birth to take place, only to take the soul back so soon

 

 

again and although harsh, this is meant as a trial for the remainder of people on earth (death poverty disease money fame are all products of earthly existence by which humans are tested)

 

 

Hari OM:

 

Your question was valid, but there are atleast two issues to your answer

 

1) AS our honourable guest would ask "where is the scripitual proof for your statement"

 

2) As most of the people would ask "Why not me?" i.e., God could have taken me before 16 years and meant me as the trial for remainder of people, why he had taken some body else without trial and has kept test for ME?

 

 

but only the one god of all mankind knows best

 

Hari OM:

 

Very true, only He has the complete and the perfect knowledge, all religions have only a tiny fraction of that knowledge revealed.

 

Since most of the people cheat their spouses, children, employer, etc., the politicans and the so-called religious heads cheat the people, and are stealing their wealth, work and even the tiny fraction of that spiritual knowledge.

 

Since every body gets what they deserve, nothing much can be done to correct this situation.

 

However if you are really an intelligent person, you should make use of that tiny fraction of real knowledge combined with sincere and honest effort to gain the full truth and liberation.

 

But if you use that knowledge for socio-economic-political-egoistic reason to destroy the other part of tiny knowledge then you just lead to the collective destruction of the human kind.

 

PS: You here does not mean "You", or even just abhramic religions, since majority of the people from all religions and countries seems to think while they have the Perfect knowledge, the other groups have imperfect or wrong knowledge and hence has to be corrected or eliminated. So the you really refers to all such persons.

[Guest guest]

Because of our memory of past tendencies, the chain of cause and effect is not broken by change of species, space, or time.

Patanjali 4:8-9

[Guest guest]

 

Because of our memory of past tendencies, the chain of cause and effect is not broken by change of species, space, or time.

Patanjali 4:8-9

 

 

memory? what memory.....? thats what i've been asking all along.....WHERE is the memory?

 

-Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

The Self is consciousness (chit).

 

When the soul is in Maya, the pure consciousness of the Self is eclipsed by mundane consciousness which Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said is named chit-abhasa.

 

The chit-abhasa or in other words impure thoughts are different from the self. But the self feels fascinated with these impure thoughts and therefore we adopt a tigerish mentality or a lusty mentality.

 

Again and again we get reborn, so that we can witness the fantastic dream of material life.

 

As Patanjali said:

"Because of our memory of past tendencies, the chain of cause and effect is not broken by change of species, space, or time."

Patanjali 4:8-9