Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Like HDG Srila Prabhupada? How can we begginers (kanishtas) recognise such more(or most) elevated souls? (dvaraka-Mathura-vrindavan) How to come in contact with them? Please without offences,or politices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 We can see that by how that pure vaishnava is practicing pure bhakti (of course we should know what is shudha bhakti at least), and by his realisations, right? Gouranga! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Kanistha means one who cannot tell a demon from a devotee. Therefore, this question is no good, because if I were to list some here, they could be demons aqs far as a kanisthas understanding goes. In order to find a pure devotee, this is Krsnas prerogative to lead you to such. Shastra notes that guru tattwa is invoked by the sincerity of the seeker. Krsna is omnescient, and knows the heart of the individual. One who is a pretender gets a guru who is a cheater pretender as well, but one who is actually desiring association of Pure devotees will have them come to you. Srimad Bhagavatam, in reference to the appearance (on the scene) of Sukadeva Goswami, notes that the pure devotee is "INSPIRED" to appear before the sincere soul (like Pariksit Maharaja). Thias is the descending process. To claim another a pure devotee, and tell others to ascend to the ladder of such association is not the process of gaudiya vaisnavism. hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Kanistha means one who cannot tell a demon from a devotee. Therefore, this question is no good, because if I were to list some here, they could be demons aqs far as a kanisthas understanding goes. In order to find a pure devotee, this is Krsnas prerogative to lead you to such. Shastra notes that guru tattwa is invoked by the sincerity of the seeker. Krsna is omnescient, and knows the heart of the individual. One who is a pretender gets a guru who is a cheater pretender as well, but one who is actually desiring association of Pure devotees will have them come to you. Srimad Bhagavatam, in reference to the appearance (on the scene) of Sukadeva Goswami, notes that the pure devotee is "INSPIRED" to appear before the sincere soul (like Pariksit Maharaja). Thias is the descending process. To claim another a pure devotee, and tell others to ascend to the ladder of such association is not the process of gaudiya vaisnavism. hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa Don't add to this statement or subtract from it. It is all contained above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 In order to find a pure devotee, this is Krsnas prerogative to lead you to such. Shastra notes that guru tattwa is invoked by the sincerity of the seeker. Krsna is omnescient, and knows the heart of the individual. One who is a pretender gets a guru who is a cheater pretender as well, but one who is actually desiring association of Pure devotees will have them come to you. Srimad Bhagavatam, in reference to the appearance (on the scene) of Sukadeva Goswami, notes that the pure devotee is "INSPIRED" to appear before the sincere soul (like Pariksit Maharaja). Thias is the descending process. To claim another a pure devotee, and tell others to ascend to the ladder of such association is not the process of gaudiya vaisnavism. Yes, this is the detached mood of the real preachers. If I can give some Hari katha by the mercy of my guru varga that's all I can do. If any seeds are planted then those seekers will go to an association of devotees or guru according to their sukriti and Krsna's divine will. I like this approach better than "preaching on behalf of the math". It is a more universal approach and mood and it was the mood of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Don't add to this statement or subtract from it. It is all contained above. Not necessarily. The guru just doesn't walk up to a person and say "HELLO, I am your guru". Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions. So, first of all one must educate himself on what to look for in a real guru and then one must try to find such a guru. A guru is not going to just walk up and tap you on the shoulders and say hi. If you want a real guru, then you must know what a real guru is and have some idea of where and how to find him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 nowadays its difficult to find a real "guru"......I see our own ISKCON gurus and sanyasis wearing expensive name brand footwear and carrying cell phones that the average householder can't even afford. there are no more real guru's.....take HDG as your guru and just chant...he is the last REAL guru that blessed this earth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 nowadays its difficult to find a real "guru"......I see our own ISKCON gurus and sanyasis wearing expensive name brand footwear and carrying cell phones that the average householder can't even afford. there are no more real guru's.....take HDG as your guru and just chant...he is the last REAL guru that blessed this earth. Fortunately not all gurus and sanyasis both inside and outside ISKCON are quite that bad. Who is "real" or not is another issue for each to decide on their own. Kannat or wealth, kamini or women, and pratishtha or pride and position are the enemies. Prabhupada discribed the same phenomena as, "profit, adoration and distinction". Pratishtha is the most subtle and difficult of these to overcome. It can be overcome by hearing from the proper source so that one can imbibe both the transcendental knowledge and the transcendental mood of a truly self-realized soul. If you believe that there are no pure devotees left on the planet then that is your position. Srila Prabhupada is manifesting as shastra guru in his books. At least try to hear those books explained by devotees who you believe are more advanced than yourself. I'm sure that you already know all these things but I am just preaching to myself for my own benefit so I can think of Krsna before I take rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Not necessarily.The guru just doesn't walk up to a person and say "HELLO, I am your guru". Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions. So, first of all one must educate himself on what to look for in a real guru and then one must try to find such a guru. A guru is not going to just walk up and tap you on the shoulders and say hi. If you want a real guru, then you must know what a real guru is and have some idea of where and how to find him. If you think your powers of deduction are that finely tuned then have at it. But how will you ever really be sure your guru is not harboring some secret desire or habit? You will have doubts until until Krsna confirms him within your heart. "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru..." Why is that so hard to accept? Not by your minds grace or the GBC's grace or even the previous acarya's grace. "...by the grace of guru one gets Krsna". Guru gives us Krsna not guru. This is not a prescription to turn your brain off and wait for guru to fall out of the sky. We apply ourselves as best we can and depend on Krsna for the successful result. "Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions." So here Jiva Gosvami tells us what to ignore. But what does that leave us with? Depending on Krsna's grace that is what. Even if you find someone who is following all the rules and regulations perfectly still he may not love Krsna. Krsna however knows who loves Him and who is just a very disciplined person. Krsna is directing the wandering of every living being in the material worlds. Are we to say that the only one He will not direct is the sincere soul seeking His pure devotees association? Does that make sense? We need to accept our helpless positions. You cannot study sastra without krsna's grace. Even an ordinary mundane person needs light to read by. Krsna supplies the light. Everyone is dependent on Krsna's grace at all stages of life including revealing the guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renuka Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 By the mercy of Krishna you find a guru and by the mercy of guru you find Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 "Jiva Goswami says that one must try to find a genuine guru and ignore ecclesiastical, customary and social conventions." Can someone please tell me where he says that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 If vyavaharika means all those things, which is not unreasonable, then yes he says that. Bhakti-sandarbha 210. tad etat-paramArtha-gurv-Azrayo vyavahArika-gurv-Adi-tyAgenApi kartavyaH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 Can someone please tell me where he says that? Paramartha-gurasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadiparityagenapi kartavyah "One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical conventions. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance toward the ultimate goal of life, krsna prema . (Bhakti-sandharba, annucheda 210) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 That is not a translation. That is a commentary. Not that I necessarily have any objections with the point itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 That is not a translation. That is a commentary. Not that I necessarily have any objections with the point itself. Actually it is taken from HDGACSP's purport to Cc. Adi lila 1.35. In the purport the devanagari transcription is not there. ". . . Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Sorry,my mistake, the quote from Cc. 1.35 is similar but original quote comes from Gaudiya Kantahara, which indeed does not always have literal translations of slokas. This book was written for Gaudiya Vaisnavas who accept the realization of the translators of the slokas. 1.53 paramartha-gurvasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadi parityagenapi kartavyah One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical convention. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance towards the ultimate goal of life, krsna-prema. (Bhakti-sandarbha, annucheda 210) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raga Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 What has been done here is ACBS's paraphrasing and commenting on a passage has been taken and placed as the translation. It is not meant to be a translation to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 When Srila Prabhupada makes statements about what Jiva Goswami has said in regards to finding and accepting a genuine spiritual master without regards to customary, social or ecclesiatical conventions, he could very well be pulling together more than one verse of Jiva Goswami on the subject and presenting a summary of everything Jiva Goswami has said on the matter. So, if we can't find all the thoughts and ideas in one verse of Jiva Goswami, we might be able to find it in a combinations of verses in the writings of Jiva Goswami. Srila Prabhupada simply said that this is what Jiva Goswami recommends. He didn't state it specifically as the translation to one particular verse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 "Customary, social or ecclesiatical conventions" is a modern expression that expands on the concept of "vyavaharika." Vyavaharika means "functional, utilitarian, or conventional." The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika. When faced with existential challenges that pierce through the carapace of our complacency, we may well be obliged to abandon functional or conventional, unquestioned beliefs, in order to adjust to newly revealed absolute values. Hence the permission, or even requirement, for many gurus. Evolution is a challenge. Sarva-dharma parityajya is a warning: "Be careful of convention." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnadasa Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 I my view and from what i have seen till now following can be termed as tending to pure vaishnawas Hks Some Madhwas Some Ramanujas No offense , this is just my view it could be utterly wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 "Customary, social or ecclesiatical conventions" is a modern expression that expands on the concept of "vyavaharika." Vyavaharika means "functional, utilitarian, or conventional." The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika. When faced with existential challenges that pierce through the carapace of our complacency, we may well be obliged to abandon functional or conventional, unquestioned beliefs, in order to adjust to newly revealed absolute values. Hence the permission, or even requirement, for many gurus. Evolution is a challenge. Sarva-dharma parityajya is a warning: "Be careful of convention." "The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika." Guest, may I ask you to expand on this a little. I get an idea of the sanskrit terms but what would be a real world example of this interplay? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 "The way that life works, since we are almost constantly evolving, vyavaharika and paramarthika are in constant interplay. What at one moment may be a moral imperative to some absolute value (paramarthika) may later become an unquestioned dogma and hence vyavaharika." Guest, may I ask you to expand on this a little. I get an idea of the sanskrit terms but what would be a real world example of this interplay? Thanks Yes, Jagat can you elaborate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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