Two Kinds of Shaktyavesha Avatar

[Guest guest]

"I AM GURU" is thinking "I AM KRISHNA".

 

That's the greatest illusion of all illusions.

[Guest guest]

Krishna says quite unequivocally:

 

 

acharya man vijaniyam - I am the acharya (the acharya is me)

 

Krishna is the ONE and ONLY guru.

 

When we see Krishna directing us in THE LAND OF GURUS, then we can understand what it guru.

 

THE LAND OF GURUS means that in Vrindavan all the devotees see ONLY KRISHNA everywhere and in everything.

 

Even a bug on a leaf in Vrindavan can teach us something about Krishna.

 

Even a bug on a leaf in Vrindavan is guru, because in Vrindavan the devotee sees Krishna everywhere and in everything.

[Guest guest]

What was the first real activity of Lord Krishna when he advented himself?

 

His first lila was the killing of the Putana witch.

 

Does anybody know the symbolic meaning as well as the message that Krishna was sending by killing the Putana witch?

 

What did the Putana witch represent?

 

Why did Krishna kill her by sucking her breast till her life force was taken away?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Originally Posted by Pankaja_Dasa

Prabhupada said He was always the servant of His Gurudeva,

 

 

Even Lord Balarama considers himself as the servant of Krishna.

 

He would also be disturbed if referred to as The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada taking exception to being called God is no surprise since even Nityananda would take exception to that as weill.

 

Pretty childesh. Are you a Swami-Narayana?

 

I hope we don't have to go around in circles. >> next stop on the chu chu train? No sastra vidhi, I luv to speculate. I luv to speculate, I luv to speculate, I luv to speculate. The only thing is, when somebody says something nice. DOH. I speculated again. How silly.

 

>>>>>>>>>>Jnana=Speculations

<<<<<<<<<<Bhakti=accepting

 

What your doing is, trying to go the other way, thinking. Prabhupada is coming from same line as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. (sorry about the above:smash: )

[Guest guest]

 

Originally Posted by Pankaja_Dasa

Prabhupada said He was always the servant of His Gurudeva,

 

 

 

Pretty childesh. Are you a Swami-Narayana?

 

I hope we don't have to go around in circles. >> next stop on the chu chu train? No sastra vidhi, I luv to speculate. I luv to speculate, I luv to speculate, I luv to speculate. The only thing is, when somebody says something nice. DOH. I speculated again. How silly.

 

>>>>>>>>>>Jnana=Speculations

<<<<<<<<<<Bhakti=accepting

 

What your doing is, trying to go the other way, thinking. Prabhupada is coming from same line as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. (sorry about the above:smash: )

 

 

This is the typical response I would expect from some lost soul who thinks that his jiva-tattva guru can save him.

 

Be happy with your jiva-tattva guru, but he cannot save you.

[Guest guest]

go to the the finite jiva that thinks he is your guru and ask him if he is guru or if Krishna is guru.

 

If he says that he is guru, then you have a big problem.

[Guest guest]

Jivas accepting jivas as guru?

 

This is clearly a case of the cheaters and the cheated.

 

The question is; who is the cheater and who is the cheated?

[Guest guest]

Most of the devotees in the Krishna consciousness movement don't know guru-tattva from Adam.

 

They think that some conditioned jiva soul is their guru.

They don't understand that guru and God are the same thing.

 

Our guru is the Lord who is master and creator of our soul.

 

Only He who has created me and owns me is my guru - none else.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Like I said your Childish. Because look:

 

Guru- (jiva-tattva) is servant of God, His taking you to Krishna. Right? Which makes Him (perfect representative of Krishna). If Guru was Vishnu-tattva (meaning the same as Krishna) Then His not a Guru, His God. Then basically this means, that's an Incarnation. Vishnu-incarnations are stated in the Sastra. They don't pop-up here everything. That's Mayavada.

 

Anyway, good luck.

[Guest guest]

 

Like I said your Childish. Because look:

 

Guru- (jiva-tattva) is servant of God, His taking you to Krishna. Right? Which makes Him (perfect representative of Krishna). If Guru was Vishnu-tattva (meaning the same as Krishna) Then His not a Guru, His God. Then basically this means, that's an Incarnation. Vishnu-incarnations are stated in the Sastra. They don't pop-up here everything. That's Mayavada.

 

Anyway, good luck.

 

the difference?

 

I am paraphrasing great acharyas and you are spouting off mental concotion.

 

do you think I just make this all up?

 

You need to study the shastra and quite listening to jivas who think they are guru.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

I don't think you know what Vishnu-tattva means.

[AncientMariner]

That is consistent with what I have read in Prabhupada's books.

Here is proof that a jiva can be a guru in my opinion.

 

 

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Canto 1: Creation</TD><TD class=m>Chapter 3: Kṛṣṇa Is the Source of All Incarnations</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.28

ete cāḿśa-kalāḥ puḿsaḥ

kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam

indrāri-vyākulaḿ lokaḿ

mṛḍayanti yuge yuge

SYNONYMS

ete — all these; ca — and; aḿśa — plenary portions; kalāḥ — portions of the plenary portions; puḿsaḥ — of the Supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; tu — but; bhagavān — the Personality of Godhead; svayam — in person; indra-ari — the enemies of Indra; vyākulam — disturbed; lokam — all the planets; mṛḍayanti — gives protection; yuge yuge — in different ages.

TRANSLATION

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.

PURPORT

In this particular stanza Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, is distinguished from other incarnations. He is counted amongst the avatāras (incarnations) because out of His causeless mercy the Lord descends from His transcendental abode. Avatāra means "one who descends." All the incarnations of the Lord, including the Lord Himself, descend on the different planets of the material world as also in different species of life to fulfill particular missions. Sometimes He comes Himself, and sometimes His different plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, or His differentiated portions directly or indirectly empowered by Him, descend on this material world to execute certain specific functions. Originally the Lord is full of all opulences, all prowess, all fame, all beauty, all knowledge and all renunciation. When they are partly manifested through the plenary portions or parts of the plenary portions, it should be noted that certain manifestations of His different powers are required for those particular functions. When in the room small electric bulbs are displayed, it does not mean that the electric powerhouse is limited by the small bulbs. The same powerhouse can supply power to operate large-scale industrial dynamos with greater volts. Similarly, the incarnations of the Lord display limited powers because so much power is needed at that particular time.

For example, Lord Paraśurāma and Lord Nṛsiḿha displayed unusual opulence by killing the disobedient kṣatriyas twenty-one times and killing the greatly powerful atheist Hiraṇyakaśipu. Hiraṇyakaśipu was so powerful that even the demigods in other planets would tremble simply by the unfavorable raising of his eyebrow. The demigods in the higher level of material existence many, many times excel the most well-to-do human beings, in duration of life, beauty, wealth, paraphernalia, and in all other respects. Still they were afraid of Hiraṇyakaśipu. Thus we can simply imagine how powerful Hiraṇyakaśipu was in this material world. But even Hiraṇyakaśipu was cut into small pieces by the nails of Lord Nṛsiḿha. This means that anyone materially powerful cannot stand the strength of the Lord's nails. Similarly, Jāmadagnya displayed the Lord's power to kill all the disobedient kings powerfully situated in their respective states. The Lord's empowered incarnation Nārada and plenary incarnation Varāha, as well as indirectly empowered Lord Buddha, created faith in the mass of people. The incarnations of Rāma and Dhanvantari displayed His fame, and Balarāma, Mohinī and Vāmana exhibited His beauty. Dattātreya, Matsya, Kumāra and Kapila exhibited His transcendental knowledge. Nara and Nārāyaṇa Ṛṣis exhibited His renunciation. So all the different incarnations of the Lord indirectly or directly manifested different features, but Lord Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord, exhibited the complete features of Godhead, and thus it is confirmed that He is the source of all other incarnations. And the most extraordinary feature exhibited by Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa was His internal energetic manifestation of His pastimes with the cowherd girls. His pastimes with the gopīs are all displays of transcendental existence, bliss and knowledge, although these are manifested apparently as sex love. The specific attraction of His pastimes with the gopīs should never be misunderstood. The Bhāgavatam relates these transcendental pastimes in the Tenth Canto. And in order to reach the position to understand the transcendental nature of Lord Kṛṣṇa's pastimes with the gopīs, the Bhāgavatam promotes the student gradually in nine other cantos.

According to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī's statement, in accordance with authoritative sources, Lord Kṛṣṇa is the source of all other incarnations. It is not that Lord Kṛṣṇa has any source of incarnation. All the symptoms of the Supreme Truth in full are present in the person of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and in the Bhagavad-gītā the Lord emphatically declares that there is no truth greater than or equal to Himself. In this stanza the word svayam is particularly mentioned to confirm that Lord Kṛṣṇa has no other source than Himself. Although in other places the incarnations are described as bhagavān because of their specific functions, nowhere are they declared to be the Supreme Personality. In this stanza the word svayam signifies the supremacy as the summum bonum.

The summum bonum Kṛṣṇa is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayaḿ-rūpa, svayam-prakāśa, tad-ekātmā, prābhava, vaibhava, vilāsa, avatāra, āveśa, and jīvas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities. Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Kṛṣṇa to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakāśa, tad-ekātmā up to the categories of the avatāras who are all viṣṇu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Śiva, who is neither avatāra nor āveśa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jīvas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes. In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is Brahmā, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Śiva, Viṣṇu or Lord Kṛṣṇa. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Śiva, Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa. He can become a Brahmā in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhāma and Maheśa-dhāma. The abode of Lord Kṛṣṇa above all spiritual planets is called Kṛṣṇaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of Kṛṣṇaloka after leaving the present material body.

 

 

As we see from this excerpt of Srimad Bhagavatam a perfected living being who is eligible to become a resident of Krsnaloka only contains 78% of the qualities of Godhead and can never be in the category of a God like Siva, Visnu or Krsna. The perfected living being can only become Godly not a God. Well Prabhupada was trying to create perfect gurus out of jivas as we are all jivas. Of course a true guru has to be a perfected jiva (individual soul) living being not just an ordinary jiva engaged in illicit activity claiming to be a guru. Clearly this will not work just like Prabhupada said it will not work.

 

My understanding of a saktyavesa avatar is that it an empowered jiva that is sent to material world as a representative of the Lord. Being a representative of the Lord he or she should be given the same respect as the Lord but they are not Visnu-tattva. If I remember right Prabhupada called Jesus a saktyavesa avatar. I have always viewed Jesus mission as the Son of God was to teach us how to relate to the father as sons of God and not that Jesus was God himself. There is big divide in Christianity because many Christians say Jesus was God. I don't believe that. I think he was a perfected jiva who represents the Lord perfectly.

 

 

 

From Teachings of Self Realization, Srila Prabhupada clears up the misconception of the topic starter here.

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

"In the Bhagavad-gita (18.66) Krsna instructs:

 

 

 

sarva-dharman parityajya

 

mam ekam saranam vraja

 

aham tvam sarva-papebhyo

 

moksayisyami ma sucah

 

 

 

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." Someone may argue, "Where is Krsna? I shall surrender to Him." But no, the process is that we first surrender to Krsna's representative; then we surrender to Krsna. Therefore it is said, saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih: the guru is as good as God. When we offer respects to the guru, we are offering respects to God. Because we are trying to be God conscious, it is required that we learn how to offer respects to God through God's representative. In all the sastras the guru is described to be as good as God, but the guru never says, "I am God." The disciple's duty is to offer respect to the guru just as he offers respect to God, but the guru never thinks, "My disciples are offering me the same respect they offer to God; therefore I have become God." As soon as he thinks like this, he becomes a dog instead of God. Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti says, kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. Because he is the most confidential servitor of God, the guru is offered the same respect that we offer God. God is always God, guru is always guru. As a matter of etiquette, God is the worshipable God, and guru is the worshiper God (sevaka-bhagavan). Therefore the guru is addressed as prabhupada. The word prabhu means "lord," and pada means "position." Thus prabhupada means "he who has taken the position of the Lord." This is the same as saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastraih.

 

mahaksadasa: To imagine Srila Prabhupada is of the visnu tattwa catagory, we, in effect, nullify all of his teachings on the subject. He always teaches us to be like him, to accept a guru means to ultimately achieve the level of guru ourselves. If he is Visnu Tattwa, then this teaching is a bald faced lie, because we are never visnu tattwa, nor can we ever be.

 

This is the same tattwa destroyer as happened to the christians via constantine and the demoniac sylvester, who made Jesus the father, thus nullifying all vaisnavism from christianity. Without understanding the servasnt status of Lord Jesus and the enjoyer of the service position of whom jesus declared as the one who has sent him, we have an impossible and bogus religion of no value.

 

We certainly prasie Srila Prabhupada, and never minimize him as an ordinary being, however, to make him Lord Nityananda means that he was not sent by Lord Nityananda, there is no chaita guru who led us to Prabhupada, etc. Many have made this mistake, and the religion they build upon this fallacy is perforated throughout because of this false foundation.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

and I continue to say that the jiva is not guru.

 

the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna.

 

it's the inspired side of the jiva, the ability to be a medium for Krishna that is guru.

 

then again that means that Krishna is guru and the jiva is simply a medium.

[AncientMariner]

 

and I continue to say that the jiva is not guru.

 

the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna.

 

it's the inspired side of the jiva, the ability to be a medium for Krishna that is guru.

 

then again that means that Krishna is guru and the jiva is simply a medium.

 

 

Hare Krishna,

 

When you put it in this context then I would probably ultimately agree with you based on my limited understanding of Prabhupada's writings. Basically it seems Prabhupada said the same thing in that he was not inventing anything new he was just basically repeating without deviation what began with Krishna so ultimately Krishna is the source, inspiration, and empowerer of all gurus. I think the key thing with Saktyavesa avatars that in order to benefit from them you have to give them the same respect as the Lord Himself because the Lord has empowered them to be perfect representatives. The mistake people make is when they say Jivas are God Himself because in Vedas it says that the Jivas can never become Gods they can only become Godly.

 

 

 

Here is interesting quote from Prabhupada regarding guru that kind of illustrates your point:

 

"So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home." (Darshan, December 3rd, 1976)

[Guest guest]

Guest,

 

Whoever you are, you have to stop this dangerous mentality. Mahaksadasa provided a perfect purport from Srila Prabhupada and yet you don't accept it.

 

Strange logic you present ... Nityananda prabhu denied he was God, so in the same mood Prabhupada denies he is God. But we know Nityananda prabhu is God, so Prabhupada=God as well? You must just take shelter of an Acarya and hear from him. This kind of speculation won't help.

 

 

Even Lord Balarama considers himself as the servant of Krishna.

 

He would also be disturbed if referred to as The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada taking exception to being called God is no surprise since even Nityananda would take exception to that as weill.

[theist]

 

and I continue to say that the jiva is not guru.

 

the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna.

 

it's the inspired side of the jiva, the ability to be a medium for Krishna that is guru.

 

then again that means that Krishna is guru and the jiva is simply a medium.

 

IMO opinion here is one point you seem to be consistently missing.

 

 

"the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna."

 

Yes the guru is Krsna. But when the jiva is at the level of being a transparent medium for Krsna he does not lose his own individuality. So that jiva is guru. As yes guru is Krsna. Oneness and difference.

 

Lord Caitanya's devotees who continue to think like this are left in awkward position of vasulating between monist and dualist positions and thus constantly contradicte themselves depending on which side they want to emphasize at the moment, the oneness or duality.

 

Whay do Mahaprabhu's devotees continue this way? IT IS SIMULATANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.

[AncientMariner]

 

IMO opinion here is one point you seem to be consistently missing.

 

 

"the jiva might become a medium for the guru to speak through or work through, but the guru is Krishna."

 

Yes the guru is Krsna. But when the jiva is at the level of being a transparent medium for Krsna he does not lose his own individuality. So that jiva is guru. As yes guru is Krsna. Oneness and difference.

 

Lord Caitanya's devotees who continue to think like this are left in awkward position of vasulating between monist and dualist positions and thus constantly contradicte themselves depending on which side they want to emphasize at the moment, the oneness or duality.

 

Whay do Mahaprabhu's devotees continue this way? IT IS SIMULATANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE.

 

Is anyone who has developed 78% of the qualities of theGodhead a guru and is a guru who is capped out at 78% of the qualities of Godhead 100% equal to a guru that is an incarnation of the Lord Himself?

[theist]

Why bother placing my quote there and then not dealing with it?

[Guest guest]

being guru is to be a transparent via-media for his own guru who is a transparent via-media for his guru etc., etc. back to Lord Krishna.

 

so, a jiva is referred to as "guru" if he is a transparent via media for the parampara.

 

Sridhar Maharaja once compared the parampara to a telescope that consists of layers of transparent lenses that help magnify a vision of the Lord.

 

Each lense is a clear media that allows the eye of the soul a closer look at the object.

 

So, being guru means to be a clear lense in the parampara that is showing Krishna to the viewer.

 

Still, in the ultimate sense, Krishna is the guru and the parampara is simply a series of transparent lenses that help us get a clear view of the Lord.

 

When Srila Prabhupada said that his disciples should become guru, he was saying that they should become transparent lenses that simply help the disciple to get a view of the Absolute guru of all souls - who is Krishna.

 

We all give Srila Prabhupada credit for coming to the west to deliver fallen souls, but ultimately it was the will and mercy of Krishna that brought Srila Prabhupada here.

[Guest guest]

the message of this topic is that we should see guru in those who can teach us the science of Krishna, but we should never see ourselves as guru.

 

once we start to think that WE are guru, then we are in big illusion.

 

all Vaishnavas are guru, but since I am a worm in stool I am neither Vaishnava nor guru.

 

a pure devotee sees guru everywhere except in himself.

 

Krishna is Guru.

[AncientMariner]

 

Why bother placing my quote there and then not dealing with it?

 

 

Trying to understand this concept of simultaneous oneness and difference that you are speaking of. I don't completely understand how a jiva guru can be completely one with the Lord if the max a jiva can have is 78% of qualities of God. Not saying it is impossible just my brain isn't comprehending it all. Sorry that I offended you. He is partially one with the Lord and simulatneously different or by carrying out perfectly the orders of the Lord he becomes exactly the same as the Lord but still different? I understand how the Lord is simultaneously one and different than the jivas but how the jivas can ever be fully one with the Lord escapes my comprehension. Its like a drop in the ocean becoming the whole ocean.

[Guest guest]

The spiritual master must be respected as God himself.

 

If one cannot respect his guru as God, then he has a guru in a bottle.

[AncientMariner]

 

The spiritual master must be respected as God himself.

 

If one cannot respect his guru as God, then he has a guru in a bottle.

 

 

I understand that a guru is supposed to be given the same respect as God but as far as I can tell they don't want you to think they actually are God in fact I have heard they get really pissed off when you do that.

[theist]

 

Trying to understand this concept of simultaneous oneness and difference that you are speaking of. I don't completely understand how a jiva guru can be completely one with the Lord if the max a jiva can have is 78% of qualities of God. Not saying it is impossible just my brain isn't comprehending it all. Sorry that I offended you. He is partially one with the Lord and simulatneously different or by carrying out perfectly the orders of the Lord he becomes exactly the same as the Lord but still different? I understand how the Lord is simultaneously one and different than the jivas but how the jivas can ever be fully one with the Lord escapes my comprehension. Its like a drop in the ocean becoming the whole ocean.

 

I never said completely one as in with no distinction. The philosophy is oneness and simulataneous distinction.

 

I am not nor was I offended, just confused as to how your question related to my quote.

 

It is natural that it escapes your comprehension, as it does mind. Basically it is said to acintya. Our minds can't house this contradiction without Krsna's grace. So in no way can I explain it to anyone beyond reminding that it is the conclusion of this line of vaisnavas. Neither pure dualists of monists. So this topic of guru being a separate individual or Krsna Himself can't be understood without factoring bedhabheda-tattva. In this way we can see how guru is both separate from Krsna and Krsna.

[AncientMariner]

 

I never said completely one as in with no distinction. The philosophy is oneness and simulataneous distinction.

 

I am not nor was I offended, just confused as to how your question related to my quote.

 

It is natural that it escapes your comprehension, as it does mind. Basically it is said to acintya. Our minds can't house this contradiction without Krsna's grace. So in no way can I explain it to anyone beyond reminding that it is the conclusion of this line of vaisnavas. Neither pure dualists of monists. So this topic of guru being a separate individual or Krsna Himself can't be understood without factoring bedhabheda-tattva. In this way we can see how guru is both separate from Krsna and Krsna.

 

 

Its definetly a mind blowing concept to try and understand. Thanks for your tolerance. Best of luck.