Official Ramakanta vs. IRM discussion thread

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Posted by Yaduraja on Jul 11, 2006:

 

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You wrote:

 

> Yes, that's true. In this debate I do not want to discuss my position

> regarding initiations in ISKCON. This is not required to defeat you. I

> just have to point out that your claims are unproven. I am aware that for

> this reason you have a fundamental problem defeating me. That is

> intentional.

 

No, you have been defeated already, do you want me to re-post all your

self-contradictions? The latest position you withdrew after I had to explain

17 times your self contradiction. What is your qualification for determining

what is or what is not proven when you cannot even agree with yourself?

Ludicrous!

 

You have had about 8 months to defeat our position, yet clearly you know how

poorly you have done since you want to carry on, even though I am happy to

stop. I know you have proven nothing, only that you have no idea what you

are talking about. Our position is so robust that even the GBC have had to

withdraw their main position paper that TFO set out to smash. Do you think

you are more intelligent than all the ‘gurus’ in ISKCON?

 

Every time I expose your self-contradictions you simply change position.

This could potentially go on forever. I want you now to commit to a

position. Why should I be the only one to clearly state my position? How is

this reasonable? If you think the conversation with the student Hassan

proves that Srila Prabhupada:

 

a)Ordered the GBC to disband the ritvik system on his departure.

and

b)Authorised the GBC to appoint successor acaryas.

 

....then please clearly state this. If you are not claiming this latest piece

of evidence proves a) and b) above, then what relevance is it to this

debate? I have no idea what position your evidence is meant to be supporting

since you have not stated your position.

 

If you think its ok to just pull up a quote from anywhere I could argue that

the following quote, where Srila Prabhupada is directly asked who will

succeed him, proves he had no intention of authorising any successor:

 

> Reporter: Who will succeed you when you die?

> Srila Prabhupada: I will never die!

> Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!

> Srila Prabhupada: I will live forever from my books and you will utilise.

> (Interview, Berkley, 17/7/75)

 

By your own methodology this proves your understanding is wrong, if your

position is that Srila Prabhupada wanted to be succeeded. Again here he

makes a similar point:

 

> Guest (2): What do you see as the future of your movement and are you

> planning to...

>

> Prabhupada: My movement is genuine.

>

> Guest (2): ...to choose a successor.

>

> Prabhupada: It is already successful. Genuine thing is always success.

> Gold is gold. If somebody is fortunate, he can purchase gold, but gold

> remains gold. If somebody purchases and somebody does not, it doesn’t

> matter. Gold is gold. So future, gold future is always the same as it is

> at present—if it is gold. If it is something glittering, that is another

> thing.

>

> Guest (4): But there must be somebody, you know, needed to handle the

> thing.

>

> Prabhupada: Yes, that we are creating. We are creating these devotees who

> will handle.

>

> Hanuman: One thing he’s saying, this gentleman, and I would like to know,

> is your successor named or your successor will...

>

> Prabhupada: My success is always there.

>

> Room conversation, 12/2/75

 

Yet it is your position, or so it seems-who really knows, that Srila

Prabhupada wanted to be succeeded. So I don’t think you are really getting

anywhere in terms of disproving our position. All you are doing is

disproving your own ever shifting positions, one after another.

 

So I am asking you to set out a position which you are prepared to stand by.

I refuse to play cat and mouse any longer. The fact that you have had to

withdraw one position after another means you are technically already

defeated. If I allow you to continue it is an act of sheer mercy on my part.

If you wish to carry debating that’s fine, but given the terrible mess you

have made of it so far I now insist you write a proper position paper that

answers the following:

 

According to you, Ramakanta Prabhu, precisely HOW, WHEN and WHERE did Srila

Prabhupada authorise the GBC to disband the ritvik system he put in place

just four month before his departure, and HOW, WHEN and WHERE did he

authorise the GBC to replace him as the diksa guru for ISKCON. (

 

I shall give you three weeks to write your position paper, so you have

plenty of time to try and come up with a position which is not

self-contradictory. If you want more time just let me know. To do this I

strongly recommend you stick with the instructions Srila Prabhupada issued

to the GBC and all Temple Presidents on how he wanted initiations to run

within ISKCON since that is what this debate is about, and is the only

evidence directly relevant to it.

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

BTW with regards:

 

"I do not want to discuss your point b) before you have explicitely, clearly

confirmed that you do not claim that in 1966 Srila Prabhupada wanted to be

the sole diksa guru for ISKCON for its entire duration."

 

Once again my original point a) does not mention anything about 'entire

duration'. How many more times do i have to repeat this? The issue of

duration comes with point b) and of course c). You are now pretending that

point a) stated something it never stated since you are trying to cover up

for the embarressing fact that you have been forced to concede it, after

months of making the most pathetic arguments I've ever read. Your re-wording

of point a) means EXACTLY the same as the original wording in English. You

know this since you already equated 'made himself recognised and accepted'

with the words 'established himself' here:

 

"We already finished that point. Yes, Srila Prabhupada made himself

recognized and accepted (established himself) as the sole diksa guru for

ISKCON. Why did you dig it out again?" (Ramakanta das Mar 29, 2006 - 06:00

AM)

 

But you are so totally lost you keep forgetting what you have written.

Hopeless!

ys

Yadu