Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja; agree on raga-bhakti?

[Guest guest]

We have heard something lately about Sridhar Maharaja's opinion on raga-bhakti and that he definitly did not sanction raga-bhakti for his followers.

 

He even said that "those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them".

 

This topic wants to explore Srila Prabhupada's teachings on raga-bhakti to see if they were in total agreement on the issue.

 

We have heard Sridhar Maharaja say "I am not wholly one with Swami Maharaja".

 

Was Srila Prabhupada's position on raga-bhakti the same, more conservative or more liberal that Sridhar Maharaja?

 

Judge for yourself....

 

TLC CH.13

 

 

Lord Caitanya told Sanatana Gosvami, "Thus far I have explained devotional service according to the regulative principles. Now I shall explain devotional service to you in terms of transcendental attachment."

The inhabitants of Vrndavana, Vrajavasis, are living examples of devotional service. Theirs is ideal devotional service with attachment, and such devotion can be found only in Vrajabhumi, Vrndavana. If one develops devotional service and attachment by following in the footsteps of the Vrajavasis, he attains raga-marga-bhakti, or devotional service in attachment to the Lord. According to Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.270), "Devotional service with ecstatic attachment for that service, which becomes natural for the devotee, is called raga, or transcendental attachment." Devotional service discharged with such attachment is called ragatmika, and deep attachment with deep absorption in the object of love is called ragatmika. Examples of these can be seen in the activities of the residents of Vrajabhumi. One who becomes attracted to Krsna by hearing of such attachment is certainly very fortunate. When one becomes deeply affected by the devotion of the residents of Vrajabhumi and tries to follow in their footsteps, he does not care for the restrictions or regulations of the revealed scriptures. This is the characteristic of one discharging raga-bhakti.

Devotional service with attachment is natural, and one who has been attracted by it does not argue with those who oppose him, even though others may argue by presenting scriptural injunctions. The natural inclination to devotional service is also based on scriptural injunction, and one who has attachment for such devotional service is not required to give it up simply on the strength of scriptural argument. In this connection it should be noted that a class of so-called devotees (known as prakrta-sahajiya) follow their own concocted ideas and, representing themselves as Krsna and Radha, indulge in debauchery. Such devotional service and attachment are false, and those so engaged are actually gliding down a hellish path. This is not the standard of ragatmika, or devotion. The prakrta-sahajiya community is actually cheated and very unfortunate.

Devotional service with attachment can be executed in two ways--externally and internally. Externally the devotee strictly follows the regulative principles beginning with chanting and hearing, while internally he thinks of the attachment which attracts him to serve the Supreme Lord. Indeed, he always thinks of his special devotional service and attachment. Such attachment does not violate the regulative principles of devotional service, and a real devotee adheres to these principles strictly; yet he always thinks of his particular attachment.

Since ali the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi, Vrndavana, are very dear to Krsna, a devotee selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. A pure devotee who is attached to the Lord always follows in the footsteps of a personality of Vrajabhumi. It is advised in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.294) that a pure devotee attached to devotional service should always remember the activities of a particular inhabitant of Vraja, even though he is not able to live in Vrajabhumi or Vrndavana. In this way he can always think of Vrajabhumi and Vrndavana.

The confidential devotees attached to the service of the Lord are divided into several categories: some of them are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. In devotional service with attachment, one has to follow a particular type of devotee of Vrajabhumi. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.25.38) the Lord says:

 

na karhicin mat-parah santa-rupe

nanksyanti no me 'nimiso ledhi hetih

yesam aham priya atma sutas ca

sakha guruh suhrdo daivam istam

 

"The word mat-para is only used to refer to persons who are satisfied with the idea of becoming My adherents alone. They consider that I am their soul, I am their friend, I am their son, I am their master, I am their well-wisher, I am their God, and I am their supreme goal. My dear mother, time does not act on such devotees." In Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.308), Rupa Gosvami offers his respectful obeisances to those who always think of Krsna as He is, and His relation as son, well-wisher, brother, father, friend, etc. Whoever follows the principles of devotional service with attachment and follows a particular devotee of Vrajabhumi certainly attains the highest perfection of love of Godhead in that spirit.

There are two characteristics by which the seeds of love of Godhead can develop, and these are known as rati, or attachment, and bhava, the condition immediately preceding love of Godhead. It is by such attachment and bhava that the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna is conquered by His devotees. These two characteristics are present before any symptoms of love of Godhead are manifest. This was all explained to Sanatana Gosvami by Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya told him that since there is really no end to describing the system of devotional service with attachment, He is simply trying to offer a sampling. Lord Caitanya then described the ultimate goal of devotional service, which is meant for one who wants to attain perfection. When one's attachment to Krsna becomes very deep, one attains the condition called love of Godhead. Such a state of existence is considered a permanent situation for a devotee. In this regard, Kaviraja Gosvami offered his respectful obeisances to Lord Caitanya for His sublime teachings of love of Godhead. As stated in Caitanya-caritamrta, (Madhya 23.1): "O Supreme Personality of Godhead, who but You has ever awarded such pure devotional service? O most magnanimous incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, for my part I offer my respectful obeisances to this incarnation known as Gaurakrsna."

In Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.3.1) the state of being in love with the Godhead is compared to the sunshine emanating from the sun; this shining makes the devotee's heart more and more lovely. The heart of such a devotee is situated in a transcendental position beyond even the mode of goodness. The process for making the heart even more sterilized by the sunshine of love is called bhava. A description of bhava is given by Rupa Gosvami. Bhava is called the permanent characteristic of the living entity, and the crucial point of progress for bhava is called the marginal state of love of Godhead. When the bhava state becomes deeper and deeper, learned devotees call it love of Godhead. As stated in the Narada-pancaratra:

 

ananya-mamata visnau

mamata prema-sangata

bhaktir ity ucyate bhisma-

prahladoddhava-naradaih

 

"When one is firmly convinced that Visnu is the only object of love and worship and that there is no one else--not even a demigod--worthy of receiving devotional service, one feels intimacy in his love relationship with God, and this is approved by such personalities as Bhisma, Prahlada, Uddhava and Narada."

If, due to some righteous activities which provoke devotional service, one is influenced by the service attitude and takes shelter of the good association of pure devotees, he develops attachment for hearing and chanting. By developing chanting and hearing, one can advance further and further in regulative devotional service to the Supreme Lord. As one so advances, his misgivings about devotional service and his attraction for the material world proportionately diminish. By advancing in hearing and chanting, a devotee becomes more firmly fixed in his faith, and gradually his initial faith develops into a taste for devotional service, and that taste gradually develops into attachment. When attachment becomes pure, it exhibits the two characteristics of bhava and rati. When rati increases, it is called love of Godhead, and love of Godhead is the ultimate goal of human life.

This process is summarized by Rupa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.4.15-16): The first requirement is faith; it is due to faith that one associates with pure devotees, and, by such association, develops devotional service. As devotional service develops, one's misgivings diminish. Then one is situated in firm conviction, and from that conviction he develops a taste for devotional service and advances to the stage of attachment, whereby he follows the regulative principles of devotional service. After that point, after one makes further progress, he attains the state called bhava, which is permanent. When such love of God increases, it reaches the highest stage of love of Godhead."

In Sanskrit this highest stage is called prema, prema can be defined as love of God without any expectation of exchange or return. Actually the words prema and love are not synonymous, yet one can say that prema is the highest stage of love. One who has attained prema is the most perfect human being. Srimad-Bhagavatam also confirms this statement (Bhag. 3.25.25): Only by the association of pure devotees can one develop a taste for Krsna consciousness, and when he tries to apply Krsna consciousness in his life, he can achieve everything up to the stage of bhava and prema.

Lord Caitanya, describing the symptoms of a person who has developed from faith to the stage of bhava, states that such a person is never agitated even if there are causes for agitation. Nor does such a person waste his time even for a moment; he is always anxious to do something for Krsna. Even if he has no engagement, he will find some work to do for Krsna's satisfaction. Nor does such a person like anything which is not connected with Krsna. Although he is situated in the best position, he does not hanker after honor or personal respect. He is confident in his work, and he is never under the impression that he is not making progress toward the supreme goal of life--going back to Godhead. Since he is fully convinced of his progress, he is always confident and keeps himself busy to achieve the highest goal. He is very much attached to gratifying the Lord and in chanting or hearing about the Lord, and he is always attached to describing the transcendental qualities of the Lord. He also prefers to live in holy places like Mathura, Vrndavana or Dvaraka. Such characteristics are visible in one who has developed to the stage of bhava.

King Pariksit affords a good example of bhava. When sitting on the banks of the Ganges waiting to meet his death, he said: "All the brahmanas present here, as well as Mother Ganges, should know that I am a soul completely surrendered to Krsna. I do not mind if I am immediately bitten by the snake sent by the brahmana boy's curse. Let the snake bite me as it likes. I shall be pleased if all of you present here will go on chanting the message of Krsna." Such a devotee is always anxious to see that his time is not wasted in anything which is not connected with Krsna. Consequently he does not like the benefits derived from fruitive activity, yogic meditation or the cultivation of knowledge. His attachment is to discourses which are favorably related to Krsna. Such pure devotees of the Lord always pray to the Supreme Lord with tears in their eyes; their minds are always engaged in recollecting the activities of the Lord, and their bodies are always engaged in offering obeisances. In this way they are satisfied. Any devotee who is acting in devotional service dedicates his life and body for the purpose of the Lord.

King Bharata--after whom India is called Bharata-varsa--was also a pure devotee, and at an early age he left his household life, his devoted beautiful wife, his son, friends and kingdom just as if they were stool. This is typical of a person who has developed bhava in devotional service. Such a person thinks of himself as the most wretched, and his only satisfaction is in thinking that some day or other Krsna will be kind enough to favor him by engaging him in devotional service. In the padma purana another instance of pure devotion is found. There it is recorded that the king, although the most elevated of human beings, was begging from door to door and was even praying to the candalas, the lowest members of human society.

It was Sanatana Gosvami who later composed this verse:

 

na prema sravanadi-bhaktir api va yogo 'thava vaisnavo

jnanam va subha-karma va kiyad aho saj-jatir apy asti va

hinarthadhika-sadhake tvayi tathapy acchedya-mula sati

he gopijanavallabha vyathayate ha ha madasaiva mam

 

"I am poor in love of Godhead, and I have no asset for hearing about devotional service. Nor do I have any understanding of the science of devotional service, nor any cultivation of knowledge, nor any righteous activities to my credit. I am not even born in a high family. Nonetheless, O darling of the damsels of Vraja, I still maintain hopes of achieving You, and these hopes are always disturbing me." Such a devotee, being touched deeply by such strong desires, always chants Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

In this regard, the following verse by Bilvamangala appears in the krsna-karnamrta (32):

 

tvac chaisavam tri-bhuvanadbhutam ity avehi

mac capalam ca tava va mama vadhigamyam

tat kim karomi viralam muralivilasi

mugdhah mukhambujam udiksitum iksanabhyam

 

"O Krsna, O wonderful flute player, the beauty of Your boyhood activities is very wonderful in this world. You know the agitation of my mind, and I know what You are. No one knows how confidential our relationship is. Although my eyes are anxious to see You and Your face, I cannot see You. Please let me know what I shall do." A similar passage appears in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.3.38) in which Rupa Gosvami states:

 

rodana-bindu-maranda-syandi-

drgindivaradya govinda

tava madhura-svara-kanthi

gayati namavalim bala

 

"O Govinda! This young girl with tears in her eyes is crying in a sweet voice, chanting Your glories." Such pure devotees are always anxious to describe the glories of Krsna and to live in a place where He exhibited His pastimes. A similar verse appears again in krsna-karnamrta (92): "The body of Krsna is so nice, and His face is so beautiful. Everything about Him is sweet and fragrant." And in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.156): "O lotus-eyed one, when will I be able to always chant Your holy name, and being inspired by that chanting, when will I be able to dance on the banks of the Yamuna?"

All these descriptions of the bhava stage of devotional service were quoted by Lord Caitanya to Sanatana Gosvami. Lord Caitanya next proceeded to describe the symptoms of actual love for Krsna. He informed Sanatana Gosvami that no one can understand the person who has developed love of Krsna. No one can understand his words, his activities or his symptoms. Even if one is very learned, it is very difficult for him to understand a pure devotee who is in love with the Lord. This is also confirmed in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.

A person engaged in devotional service becomes heartsick when singing the glories of the Supreme Lord. Because the Lord is very dear to him, when he glorifies the Lord's name, fame and so on, he becomes almost like an insane man, and in that condition he sometimes laughs, sometimes cries and sometimes dances. He continues in this way without even considering his situation. By gradually developing his love of Godhead, he increases his affection, his emotion and his ecstasy. Such attachment, mahabhava, is the highest stage of devotional love. It may be likened to sugar candy, which is the most powerful form of sugar. Love of Godhead can gradually develop in such a way that transcendental pleasure is increased to the highest stage for the real devotee.

 

TLC ch.13

[gHari]

Why bother? Who is arrogant enough to try to drive a wedge between these two saints? That evil in your mind should be torched with humility - if you can develop some. Raga - ha - cannot even get beyond aparadha!

[theist]

Yes gHari. As if we can take a few sentences spoken to his disciples for their development and from that suppose we know the fullness of the inner mind of such a saint.

 

And even as try to find some way to separate them they are no doubt both fixed in their own spontaneous loving devotion and play with Sri Krsna. Whatever their rasa I don't know, but it is not difficult to envision them together playing with Krsna.

[Guest guest]

 

Why bother? Who is arrogant enough to try to drive a wedge between these two saints? That evil in your mind should be torched with humility - if you can develop some. Raga - ha - cannot even get beyond aparadha!

 

Why must you immediatly assume this is some sinister, evil plot to "drive a wedge" between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Actually, that is quite hateful and unfare.

 

My intention behind starting this topic was to seriously explore whether or not Srila Prabhupada granted some license to his disciples to adopt the path of raga-bhakti.

As a formal disciple of Srila Prabhupada and a student of Sridhar Maharaja, I am just trying to find out where Srila Prabhupada actually stood on the matter, as it has been quite well advertised what the position of Sridhar Maharaja was.

 

I personally can't fathom a devotional life deprived of raga-bhakti.

I don't understand exactly why Sridhar Maharaja was so conservative on the matter.

 

Being a formal initiate of Srila Prabhupada I am just wanting a concensus from sincere devotees as to whether or not Srila Prabhupada was accomodating his disciples to pursue the path of raga-bhakti.

 

It appeared that he did allow it and encourage it, though maybe not in the full-fledged form of the siddha-pranali system.

 

There appears to be a less orthodox and less regimented concept of raga-bhakti that can be practiced apart from the siddha-pranali process.

 

Without raga we are simply empty shells following some mechanical process.

 

Raga means devotional service in attachment.

Without attachment how can anyone keep up the devotional practice?

 

to say no raga is allowed is like saying "don't be attached, just perform your service like a robot".

 

As much as I admire Srila Sridhar Maharaja, I am having a little trouble with this hard line prohibition against raga-bhakti.

[Beggar]

 

We have heard something lately about Sridhar Maharaja's opinion on raga-bhakti and that he definitly did not sanction raga-bhakti for his followers.

 

He even said that "those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them".

 

This topic wants to explore Srila Prabhupada's teachings on raga-bhakti to see if they were in total agreement on the issue.

 

 

Srila Sridhar Majaraja said, "Those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them". He didn't say, "Those who have raga-bhakti, we hate them". Pujala raga patha gaurave bhange means that we worship and serve those in raga marga. The raga marga consists of two levels. First the ragatmika devotees like Mother Yasoda, Subal, Visaka and the other eternal associates of the Lord.

“When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service.” (Cc Madhya-lila 22.150)

The next group are those that follow the ragatmikas and they are known as raganuga. Anuga means to follow. Not just any one can follow the ragatmikas, one must have intense greed.

PURPORT

“Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrndavana—namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. Technically it is called svarupa-upalabdhi. This stage is not achieved in the beginning. In the beginning one has to render service strictly according to the regulative principles set forth by the revealed scriptures and the spiritual master. By continuously rendering service through the process of vaidhi bhakti, one’s natural inclination is gradually awakened. That is called spontaneous attraction, or raganuga bhakti.

(Cc. Madhya-lila 22.153)

[theist]

"Srila Sridhar Majaraja said, "Those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them". He didn't say, "Those who have raga-bhakti, we hate them". "

 

I believe this is why everyone should find their own level and work from there. Fortunately Beggar set it straight before a firestorm insued.

[Guest guest]

 

"Srila Sridhar Majaraja said, "Those who say they have raga-bhakti, we hate them". He didn't say, "Those who have raga-bhakti, we hate them". "

 

I believe this is why everyone should find their own level and work from there. Fortunately Beggar set it straight before a firestorm insued.

 

Well, considering that actions speak louder than words, we could also conclude that one would therefore be prohibited from any public act of raga-bhakti, which would put a sever strain on the execution of many acts of devotion.

 

"Those who say they have raga-bhakti" could as well include anyone who manifests any public display of affection or attraction to the Lord.

 

To strip devotees of any and all acts and forms of spontaneous service and attraction seems to reduce the devotee down to a non-feeling, non-caring, non-loving robot.

 

Why should Saraswata devotees be herded into the corral of vaidhi-bhakti and deprived of spontaneous feelings?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada explains the facts about devotees with spontaneous attraction to Krishna.

 

 

Devotional service with attachment is natural, and one who has been attracted by it does not argue with those who oppose him, even though others may argue by presenting scriptural injunctions. The natural inclination to devotional service is also based on scriptural injunction, and one who has attachment for such devotional service is not required to give it up simply on the strength of scriptural argument.

 

Srila Prabhupada says that raga-bhakti is natural for a devotee.

It is very unnatural for a devotee not to feel some spontaneous attraction to Krishna - some raga.

[Guest guest]

"I am poor in love of Godhead, and I have no asset for hearing about devotional service. Nor do I have any understanding of the science of devotional service, nor any cultivation of knowledge, nor any righteous activities to my credit. I am not even born in a high family. Nonetheless, O darling of the damsels of Vraja, I still maintain hopes of achieving You, and these hopes are always disturbing me."

[Beggar]

 

Well, considering that actions speak louder than words, we could also conclude that one would therefore be prohibited from any public act of raga-bhakti, which would put a sever strain on the execution of many acts of devotion.

 

"Those who say they have raga-bhakti" could as well include anyone who manifests any public display of affection or attraction to the Lord.

 

To strip devotees of any and all acts and forms of spontaneous service and attraction seems to reduce the devotee down to a non-feeling, non-caring, non-loving robot.

 

Why should Saraswata devotees be herded into the corral of vaidhi-bhakti and deprived of spontaneous feelings?

When Srila Sridhar Maharaja would give Hari katha he would often become quite estatic and you could hear the bhava in his voice. Same thing is true in the recorded bhajans. His conception of Krsna Consciousness is so high, so deep and so madhuram, sweet. Mahduram madhuram madhuram. The talks and bhajans are all there are on mp3s in your interested. What your getting often on the internet is his conception filtered through current erstwhile followers who have a bit of conditioning and misconception. Then there is the whole rift between some Sridhar Maharaja followers and Narayana Maharaja. In their attempt to attack the conception of Narayana Maharaja then tend to become so zealous that they unwitingly portray Sridhar Maharaja as rather stern and dry.

Here is something by Sridhar Maharaja, let him speak for himself:

iI am not teaching raganuga-bhakti, but I am making it clear that it is our goal. We must have that on our head – pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange. We are worshipping this and our highest aim is raganuga-bhakti. With that object in mind we are doing work here in this world.

 

 

The different stages of development, sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana, are also different stages of devotional service, like vaidhi-bhakti, raganuga-bhakti etc.

In vaidhi-bhakti, we generally see the constitutional position of the Master, the Master of the world. He is in cooperation with us, and we are guided by some law – that is Narayana in Vaikuntha. “This is a good thing, I get some special pleasure by His service. The sastra also encourages me to do this.” This sort of conclusion is held by the servitor in vaidhi. There is some awe, grandeur, and some apprehension that I may not do my service correctly – it is calculated devotion and calculated service.

But in raga-marga one’s service is spontaneous and automatic. “I am helpless – I can’t resist doing it.” That service is fully dependent, just as in the inner workings of the body, there is some voluntary action, and some reflexive involuntary action.

It is involuntary that when we eat something, the process of digestion is automatic – I can’t assist it. Without my consciousness the work is going on. So in raga-marga, it goes on without our calculated faculty – our voluntary faculty does not have much scope there. It must follow this internal, spontaneous energy which works there. Those in raga-marga cannot live for anything but to do their service. That is the position there. But it is not measured or calculated – it is automatic and spontaneous.

 

[raga]

 

Without raga we are simply empty shells following some mechanical process.

...

to say no raga is allowed is like saying "don't be attached, just perform your service like a robot".

Why, thank you! My self-inflated sense of importance was already beginning to wane.

 

Seriously though, there is much inclarity in definitions of raga-bhakti amidst all these considerations.

[bija]

 

I personally can't fathom a devotional life deprived of raga-bhakti.

I don't understand exactly why Sridhar Maharaja was so conservative on the matter. quote by guest

Firstly I am not really qualified to comment about Srila Sridhara Maharaja. But I really want to try and answer your question.

It appears that he was extremely humble in all his dealings. By just reading a tiny bit on his life, his humility can be gleaned if we have the vision. Surely his internal devotion must have been of the highest standard.

 

To answer your question....his humility is surely the reason.

[Beggar]

 

Seriously though, there is much inclarity in definitions of raga-bhakti amidst all these considerations.

Sure, Sridhar Maharaja was a proponent of caution, "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." Clarity or jnana has its place as Sridhar Maharaja would say as a servant of bhakti. I'm not arguing against knowing the sadhya (the goal) and the sadhana (the means to the goal). Its the faith of many of those who got his association that Sridhar Maharaja embodies that goal. Maybe its hard for you to see this considering the three shelled baba means three gunas remark.

[Guest guest]

labdha-sri-krsna-prema-parakasthasya pratiksana-vardhamana-tad-asvadana-lolupataya tad-apraptivat pratitih; tatra sri-krsna-premnastu sarvocca-saubhagyakara-parama- sudurllabha-pumarthatvan ca sucitam

- Swami B.S. Govinda

 

na prema-gandho 'sti darapi me harau

krandami saubhagya-bharam prakasitum

vamsi-vilasy-anana-lokanam vina

vibharmi yat prana-patangakan vrtha

 

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrsam ihajani <strong>nanuragah</strong>

- Sri Sri Bhagavatas Caitanyacandrasya

[gHari]

Srila Prabhupada: "First deserve. Then desire".

 

Srila Sridhara's writings about <a href=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/ANGELS.pdf target=new>angels fearing to tread</a> simply emphasized Prabhupada's words to me, providing another thick layer of much needed humility.

 

We be too many of us gopis.

[gHari]

June 7, 1976

 

TamAla KRSNa: There's another statement, I saw them, where it says, it's a quote, that you can treat KRSNa as your lover and KRSNa will reciprocate.

Hari-zauri: And they underlined the two words "you can" treat KRSNa as your lover. In this way they're taking your quotes out of context.

RAmezvara: This is one of their main, the main ideas in their philosophy is that the living entity can desire to have any relationship he wants with KRSNa.

PrabhupAda: That's all right, he can desire. I already explained: first deserve, then desire.

TamAla KRSNa and RAmezvara: Deserve then desire, oh.

PrabhupAda: You are rascal, how you can desire? You have no qualification, you desire to high court judge. What is this nonsense?

RAmezvara: But then they have an answer.

PrabhupAda: What is that answer?

RAmezvara: That "Let me just try it anyway, to keep my mind thinking..."

PrabhupAda: How you can try it? First of all, be qualified, a big lawyer. Then you become high court judge. Where is that qualification? You are after illicit sex and biDi and you want to be associated with the gopIs.

RAmezvara: They say that "In ISKCON, we do not..."

PrabhupAda: Let them say all nonsense. They are disqualified. SahajiyA bAbAjIs, that's all.

TamAla KRSNa: There's about forty of them in this temple. Fifty. There's fifty of them in this temple, PrabhupAda.

RAmezvara: Oh, really?

TamAla KRSNa: Oh, yes.

Hari-zauri: A women's group and a men's group.

TamAla KRSNa: There's a women's group with about twenty-five or thirty.

Hari-zauri: The thing is that they're going around and they're soliciting for people to come and join their group, and then immediately they come, they immediately take them into all the details of the gopIs with KRSNa.

PrabhupAda: Then let them.... Unless they follow the regulative principles, there is no place for that in the temple. Let them go out.

RAmezvara: They are following.

TamAla KRSNa: Yes.

PrabhupAda: That is their fault. They want to utilize the love affairs of KRSNa and gopIs for their debauchery. That is a support for their debauchery. That is sahajiyA.

TamAla KRSNa: That's the meaning of sahajiyA.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

TamAla KRSNa: So that's on their minds.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

TamAla KRSNa: They're frustrated.

PrabhupAda: We are restricting, "No illicit sex." They will put that "Here is illicit sex between the gopIs and KRSNa."

TamAla KRSNa: So we can also do it.

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is their...

TamAla KRSNa: Breaking the principles.

PrabhupAda: Yes.

Hari-zauri: Because sAdhana-bhakti is a gradual process, they immediately want the highest perfection quickly.

PrabhupAda: That is the danger. But if they at once go to rAsa-lIlA, because they are not trained up neither they are liberated, they'll think this rAsa-lIlA is just like our young boys, young girls mix together, have sex like that. So it is supported our.... "Why should we restrict to no illicit sex, no this, no rules and regulations? We shall do all nonsense." That's all. And become a gopI. It is very good to aspire to become high court judge, but how you can become high court judge without qualification? That they are not thinking. They have no qualification, they have illicit sex, pregnant, going to abortion, and they're high court judge.

RAmezvara: They say AjAmila had no qualification and he just chanted.

PrabhupAda: AjAmila had no qualification. Therefore they should have no qualification.

RAmezvara: They say...

PrabhupAda: They say. Now you accept them as authority, "They say." What is they? What they are?

RAmezvara: AjAmila's qualification was he thought of KRSNa at the time of death.

PrabhupAda: Yes. But you cannot think.

RAmezvara: They want to think of the gopIs at the time of death.

TamAla KRSNa: Then practice.

PrabhupAda: What they will think of at the death, why you are conjecturing now? Their habits are rascal, they're making pregnant, illicit sex, what they will think? Anyway, if we give indulgence to these people, then this preaching work will be hampered.

TamAla KRSNa: No, we're not going to do that.

PrabhupAda: Or they should be separated. Otherwise, it will be bad example, and all restrictions will be broken.

TamAla KRSNa: If they don't change their mentality, then they should live separately, do their own society.

PrabhupAda: And they'll do that. (japa) That sahajiyA tendency is very easy to take up.

Hari-zauri: It seems like it's an inherent thing in...

PrabhupAda: Thinking of RAdhA-KRSNa lIlA, that is in liberated stage, not in the conditioned stage.

TamAla KRSNa: I could never understand, SrIla PrabhupAda, why, I was always wondering why in all of your books you're always blasting so much time on the sahajiyAs, and I was not.... Now I see why, because the tendency is so easy. I could never, I'd always think, "Why is PrabhupAda saying so much? Because they're only in India."

RAmezvara: He's thinking that this is a small group.

TamAla KRSNa: Yes, in India, but now I see it's an easy mentality for anyone's mind that can be adopted. That's why PrabhupAda was stressing.

RAmezvara: And as our movement gets more and more members, there will be more and more people who will be exhibiting this sahajiyA tendency.

TamAla KRSNa: That's why it's in every book PrabhupAda speaks about it without fail.

PrabhupAda: Anyway, keep <B>your</b> movement very pure. You don't mind if somebody goes away. Don't mind. But we must keep our principles pure.

[SishirSaha]

gHari Prabhu, Can you tell me where you found this. Is it in the vedabase?

[Guest guest]

These conversations are difficult to understand because many times Srila Prabhupada had disciples with agendas, grudges, political ambitions and all sorts of other impure motives for trying to pry a particular statement out of Srila Prabhupada to support their politics or political position.

 

Sometimes Srila Prabhupada would say "don't read any books but mine", then on another occasion he would say they he never said that and that we should study the books of previous acharyas.

 

That's why it's always best to refer to the shastra, the books of Srila Prabhupada, because in the books he is not responding to the often political ambitions or agendas of selfish disciples.

 

When it comes down to accepting books or letters, I will accept the books every time, because there are too many examples of Srila Prabhupada being coerced and manipulated in conversations to put too much faith in the result.

 

I personally detest most of these converstations where these ambitious ISKCON politicians are trying manipulate Srila Prabhupada to make statements to support their narrow personal agendas and political positions.

 

The books represent Srila Prabhupada's instructions to the world.

Manipulative conversations with disciples sometimes make a poor reference to draw conclusions from.

 

Any talk where Tamal and Ramesvar are butting in and making statements has very little importance in my mind.

 

give me the books.........

it's the books stupid......the books!

[gHari]

This Vedabase morning walk conversation reflects the same sentiments as Srila Sridhara and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as presented in "Follow the Angels" linked above.

 

Again, aparadha is bound to crush (or maybe even promote delusions of) raga. Discussing such an esoteric topic seems a meaningless exercise now. The last thing we want is to go stumbling rushing into Radha-kunda like fools or to go barging into the secret garden where angels fear to tread.

[Guest guest]

 

Why, thank you! My self-inflated sense of importance was already beginning to wane.

 

Seriously though, there is much inclarity in definitions of raga-bhakti amidst all these considerations.

 

Where do you see the unclarity?

Can you clarify it?

Can you present any evidence from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada that help to clarify it according to your views?

 

Is this instruction from Srila Prabhupada unclarified and what do you think so?

 

 

Since all the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi, Vrndavana, are very dear to Krsna, a devotee selects one of the inhabitants and follows in his footsteps in order to be successful in his own devotional service. A pure devotee who is attached to the Lord always follows in the footsteps of a personality of Vrajabhumi. It is advised in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.294) that a pure devotee attached to devotional service should always remember the activities of a particular inhabitant of Vraja, even though he is not able to live in Vrajabhumi or Vrndavana. In this way he can always think of Vrajabhumi and Vrndavana.

 

This isn't exactly the form of raganuga bhakti that the siddha-pranali group practices, but can't this concept be developed enough to be considered raganuga bhakti?

[Guest guest]

 

This Vedabase morning walk conversation reflects the same setiments as Srila Sridhara and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta as presented in "Follow the Angels" linked above.

 

Again, aparadha is bound to crush (or maybe even promote delusions of) raga. Discussing such an esoteric topic seems a meaningless exercise now. The last thing we want is to go stumbling rushing into Radha-kunda like fools or to go barging into the secret garden where angels fear to tread.

 

I have often wondered where ISKCON devotees got the authority to gather all the letters from Srila Prabhupada to his individual disciples and compile them into a central resource to be held up as reference source.

 

Did Srila Prabhupada ever approve of this idea?

Did he ever authorize this effort to compile all his letters into a sourcebook of instruction?

 

Actually, I have never seen any instruction or authorization from Srila Prabhupada that his personal letters to disciples should be compiled in a central depository and referred to like shastra.

 

Prabhupada gave his books as the Bible of the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Letters are relative and incidental in many cases.

 

the books are absolute and standard - at least as far as the teachings of Srila Prabhupada are concerned.

 

Letters?

Using them as shastra could be considered questionable.

[gHari]

The beginning of the Nectar of Devotion 16 emphasizes those comments in the above morning walk conversation (liberation first - first deserve, then desire):

Eligibility for Spontaneous Devotional Service

 

 

Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the VRSNis and VRndAvana denizens are called rAgAnugA devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These rAgAnugA devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or YazodA, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called rAgAnugA.

 

 

We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (VRndAvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination

. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivRtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, YazodA or the gopIs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value. When one is actually spontaneously attracted to the loving principles of the gopIs, there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character.

 

 

Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master.

Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in VRndAvana

.

 

 

It is said by SrI RUpa GosvAmI, "When one is actually liberated from material contamination, he can always remember an eternal devotee in VRndAvana in order to love KRSNa in the same capacity

. And developing such an aptitude, one will always live in VRndAvana, even within his mind." The purport is that if it is possible one should go and physically be present at VrajabhUmi, VRndAvana, and be engaged always in the service of the Lord, following the devotees in Vraja-dhAma, the spiritual realm of Vraja. If it is not possible, however, to be physically present at VRndAvana, one can meditate anywhere upon living in that situation. Wherever he may be, one must always think about life in Vraja-dhAma and about following in the footsteps of a particular devotee in the service of the Lord.

 

 

A devotee who is actually advanced in KRSNa consciousness, who is constantly engaged in devotional service, should not manifest himself, even though he has attained perfection. The idea is that he should always continue to act as a neophyte devotee as long as his material body is there. Activities in devotional service under regulative principles must be followed even by the pure devotee. But when he realizes his actual position in relationship with the Lord, he can, along with the discharging of regulative service, think within himself of the Lord, under the guidance of a particular associate of the Lord, and develop his transcendental sentiments in following that associate.

 

 

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-praNAlI. The siddha-praNAlI process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-praNAlI process is followed by the prAkRta-sahajiyA, a pseudosect of so-called VaiSNavas. In the opinion of RUpa GosvAmI, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service.

 

 

SrI RUpa GosvAmI says that learned AcAryas recommend that we follow the regulative principles even after the development of spontaneous love for KRSNa. According to the regulative principles, there are nine departmental activities, as described above, and one should specifically engage himself in the type of devotional service for which he has a natural aptitude. For example, one person may have a particular interest in hearing, another may have a particular interest in chanting, and another may have a particular interest in serving in the temple. So these, or any of the other six different types of devotional service (remembering, serving, praying, engaging in some particular service, being in a friendly relationship or offering everything in one's possession), should be executed in full earnestness. In this way, everyone should act according to his particular taste.

 

 

[.......]

 

 

There is a statement in the NArAyaNa-vyUha-stava prayers that persons who are always engaged in thinking of the Lord as their husband, friend, father or well-wisher are always worshipable by everyone. This

spontaneous love for KRSNa can be developed only by the special mercy of KRSNa or His pure devotee

. This process of devotional service is sometimes called puSTi-mArga. PuSTi means "nourishing," and mArga means "path." Such development of sentiment nourishes devotional service to the highest standard. Thus it is called the path of nourishment, or puSTi-mArga. The Vallabha-sampradAya, which belongs to the ViSNusvAmI sect of VaiSNava religion, worships KRSNa in this puSTi-mArga. Generally devotees in Gujarat worship BAla KRSNa, under this heading of puSTi-mArga.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (VRndAvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination.

 

Now, if you can understand what liberation is and who is liberated, then you can start to understand the fuller meaning of this instruction.

 

Can you find any reference from Srila Prabhupada about what liberation (freedom from material contamination) is?

 

Do you understand that the chanters of the Holy Name are all liberated souls?

 

What does the shastra say about one who has the Holy Name on his tongue?

 

If you don't know what is liberation, then how can you understand this instruction of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Dear friend, you are among the liberated.

 

Consult the shastra about the condition of those who chant the Holy Name of the Lord with faith and devotion.

 

Much more than liberated.

[gHari]

That is not what is being conveyed. Stages are referenced. And who really has the Holy Name on their tongue?

[Guest guest]

 

That is not what is being conveyed. Stages are referenced. And who really has the Holy Name on their tongue?

 

If you have it figured out, then what do you know about the results of chanting with even some offense?

 

Does liberation come only at the stage of suddha-nama or before that?

 

What does shastra say about nama-abhasa?

 

If you don't know these things then why are you stating some position?

 

What does the shastra say about hearing the Holy Name for the lips of a pure devotee?

 

If you don't know the liberated from the non-liberated, then what right do you have to take a position as if you are an authority?

 

Do your homework before you come to present yourself as knowing the conclusions to teach others.