Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja; agree on raga-bhakti?

[Guest guest]

 

Its good that Krsna is the center of these fights. I don't think that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur desired to bring Westerners to Mayapur/Navadvip to display their expertness is "fighting and sex life". If the current Saraswat Vaisnavas wish to go on with their fratricidal war they will find the different camps of babajis the victors by default. Is this what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada wanted?

 

the only babaji nowadays that has any credibility is Ananta das babaji and he can't even sleep anymore for some odd reason.

 

He left Radha-kunda to go to Assam for medical treatment because his sleep is disturbed and he is being attacked by forces that won't allow him to sleep.

 

ain't no babajis gonna get anything out of all the infighting of the Saraswata school.

 

ISKCON is the most predominant branch of the Saraswata school all over the world and more than likely will remain so for the forseeable future.

[Guest guest]

It is true that Krsna may "allow" this feuding to take place, and that there may be a higher purpose involved. Still, from my limited vantage point, it doesn't make sense that the Lord is ready to wrap up His Sankirtan Lila and call it a day. What about the Golden Age that we've read about, that is supposed to last for 10,000 years?

 

Feuding is one thing, but at the same time, we are cautioned not to commit Vaishnava ninda or aparadha, as this destroys the devotional creeper like no other. Srila Prabhupada always desired and requested cooperation: before, during, and at the end of his manifest lila. I don't think we should just give up on the idea, despite the current feuds. It may very well be that the Lord's will is that we let saner minds prevail, and end this feuding once and for all. Heaven help us if we don't.

[Guest guest]

 

It is true that Krsna may "allow" this feuding to take place, and that there may be a higher purpose involved. Still, from my limited vantage point, it doesn't make sense that the Lord is ready to wrap up His Sankirtan Lila and call it a day. What about the Golden Age that we've read about, that is supposed to last for 10,000 years?

 

Feuding is one thing, but at the same time, we are cautioned not to commit Vaishnava ninda or aparadha, as this destroys the devotional creeper like no other. Srila Prabhupada always desired and requested cooperation: before, during, and at the end of his manifest lila. I don't think we should just give up on the idea, despite the current feuds. It may very well be that the Lord's will is that we let saner minds prevail, and end this feuding once and for all. Heaven help us if we don't.

 

But, you have to accept that Srila Prabhupada made feuding as gospel as he wrote feuding comments about many of his Godbrothers in his shastra.

 

Feuding has become ingrained into the ISKCON fabric,as it is written in the books - despite these so-called apologies that Prabhupada made in his last days.

 

Sridhar Maharaja once told the ISKCON authorities that if they did not remove the negatitve comments from the books of Srila Prabhupada that he would not have any further connection with any ISKCON leadership.

 

It's kinda hard to change the books of Srila Prabhupada even if Sridhar Maharaja says so or Srila Prabhupada made some so-called apologies on his death bed.

 

Feuding is built into the ISKCON fabric.

It's in the books.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted a clean break from the Gaudiya Matha and all his Godbrothers.

There are those that have tried to create a convergence after his departure, but you can't deny what Prabhupada wrote in his books.

 

"I am surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers".

[Guest guest]

 

 

"I am surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers".

 

 

Where is this quote from? What book?

[raga]

 

the only babaji nowadays that has any credibility is Ananta das babaji and he can't even sleep anymore for some odd reason.

You just couldn't comment on the rest without knowing them.

[Guest guest]

 

Where is this quote from? What book?

 

It comes from Nectar of Instruction text 6 purport.

 

 

Those who think that Krsna consciousness is limited to a certain section of people, a certain section of devotees or a certain tract of land are generally prone to see the external features of the devotee. Such neophytes, unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to bring the maha-bhagavata to their platform. We experience such difficulty in propagating this Krsna consciousness all over the world. Unfortunately we are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the extraordinary activities of spreading Krsna consciousness all over the world. They simply try to bring us to their platform, and they try to criticize us in every respect. We very much regret their naive activities and poor fund of knowledge. An empowered person who is actually engaged in the confidential service of the Lord should not be treated as an ordinary human being, for it is stated that unless one is empowered by Krsna, one cannot spread the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world.

 

Therefore, the feud was built into the mainframe of ISKCON.

ISKCON was hardwired for a feud with Gaudiya Math.

[Guest guest]

It comes from Nectar of Instruction text 6 purport.

 

 

Those who think that Krsna consciousness is limited to a certain section of people, a certain section of devotees or a certain tract of land are generally prone to see the external features of the devotee. Such neophytes, unable to appreciate the exalted service of the advanced devotee, try to bring the maha-bhagavata to their platform. We experience such difficulty in propagating this Krsna consciousness all over the world. Unfortunately we are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the extraordinary activities of spreading Krsna consciousness all over the world. They simply try to bring us to their platform, and they try to criticize us in every respect. We very much regret their naive activities and poor fund of knowledge. An empowered person who is actually engaged in the confidential service of the Lord should not be treated as an ordinary human being, for it is stated that unless one is empowered by Krsna, one cannot spread the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world.

 

Therefore, the feud was built into the mainframe of ISKCON.

ISKCON was hardwired for a feud with Gaudiya Math.

[Guest guest]

 

You just couldn't comment on the rest without knowing them.

 

Well. what I meant was that ADB is the only babaji with any credibility and international popularity.

 

Nevertheless, I don't see that the siddha-pranali camps are going to enjoy any great windfall from the internal feud of the Saraswatas.

 

You'll see more Hindus rejecting the babajis for the ISKCON society than devotees defecting from ISKCON to the babajis.

 

The sword cuts both ways.

[Guest guest]

 

Unfortunately we are surrounded by neophyte Godbrothers who do not appreciate the extraordinary activities of spreading Krsna consciousness all over the world.

 

But, then again we find that Srila Prabhupada seemed to single out Sridhar Maharaja as the exception to thi s rule.

 

Srila Prabhupada made a distinction with Sridhar Maharaja several times.

 

No other Godbrother of Srila Prabhupada ever enjoyed the kind of endorsement as did Sridhar Maharaja, even though in the early days of ISKCON Srila Prabhupada also made some negative comments about Sridhar Maharaja being involved in the break-up of the Gaudiya Math.

 

In his final days, Srila Prabhupada instructed his editors that if they had any questions about translations or philosophy that they should consult Sridhar Maharaja and that they should consult Narayana Maharaja about the funeral procedures.

[Beggar]

 

...and that they should consult Narayana Maharaja about the funeral procedures.

Your shotgun blast approach to Vaisnava aparadha has succeeded again. Again the spray of the blast has struck Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and the hearts of his followers and those who have affection for him. Saksad hari tvena samasta sastrih. A genuine uttama adhikari guru who comes down to the madhyama stage, "to spread the Holy Name around" does't die but rather goes into a maha-samadhi or devotional transe. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says, "He reasons ill who tells that Vaisnavas die, when thou art living still in sound." Funerals are for ignorant persons who's bodies are placed in wooden coffins in the ground. A great devotee doesn't just choose anyone to chant the mantras and place his body composed of sat-cit-ananda into the samadhi. When ones intellegence is clouded by neophyte sectareanism they cannot see this and they are bound to make offenses.

[Guest guest]

 

Your shotgun blast approach to Vaisnava aparadha has succeeded again.

 

During Srila Prabhupada's time, he said very strong things against his Godbrothers and during his time his disciples were never encouraged to embrace or accept members of the Gaudiya Math.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not create a movement of peacenicks that were supposed to homogenize themselves with the Gaudiya Math groups.

 

It's no accident that ISKCON products have a negative opinion towards these Gaudiya Math groups.

Srila Prabhupada hammered it into their heads for as long as he was with us.

 

This "peacenick" mentality that wants to undo what Srila Prabhupada has done is just sentimental follishness that is causing harm to the cause of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's all one! Now ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math should have an orgy of brotherly love?

 

Why? Srila Prabhupada never advocated that during his time.

 

In the name of avoiding offenses there is this attempt to merge and mingle the followers of Srila Prabhupada with Gaudiya Math groups.

 

This peacenick mentality was never advocated by Srila Prabhupada.

It's like some hippy "love-fest" mentality that is erroding away the protections that Srila Prabhupada built into the movement.

 

Prabhupada was never competing in a Gaudiya Math popularity contest.

He wanted his international mission to maintain a seperation from the Gaudiya Math groups.

 

Now, the lovebugs and peacenicks are trying to undo that and promote an orgy of brotherly love between ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math.

 

Having Narayana Maharaja perform the funeral ceremony of Srila Prabhupada was not something that could or should undo everything that Srila Prabhupada taught for years and even wrote into his books as well as in many letters.

[Beggar]

 

Now, the lovebugs and peacenicks are trying to undo that and promote an orgy of brotherly love between ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math.

 

Having Narayana Maharaja perform the funeral ceremony of Srila Prabhupada was not something that could or should undo everything that Srila Prabhupada taught for years and even wrote into his books as well as in many letters.

First, If it means to be a "peacenick" to warn devotees against Vaisnava aparadha then so be it. But your are not addressing the fact that it may be a serious offense against Srila Prabhupada to consider his samadhi mahotsava to be a "funeral". If a so-called spiritual society is infested with misconceptions and aparardhas or offenses, should we stay? Sounds like you are entraped in the "mental prison of the institution"[srila Sridhar Maharaja]. I am not saying that no one has the proper outlook in ISKCON but either you are not properly following your guide or you don't have proper guidance. These arguments will only fly with those who are more interested in the bottle than its contents. If someone who was originally inspired in ISKCON but now feels that his advancement is being repressed due to societal considerations, what should he do? There are so many instructions that the spiritual master gives. What if he tells one to get him pure water from a particuliar well. Then if the disciple goes to the well and finds stool in the well; he should bring back that water? Or should he bring back pure water?

Anyway are you aware that Srila Prabhupada himself near the end of his prakata lila said, "The war is over now," and then created the Bhaktivedanta Swami Charity Trust for developing Gauda-mandala-bhumi and encouraging better relations and cooperation between ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers. Specifically, Srila Prabhupada instructed that this trust construct a kirtana hall at Srila Sridhara Maharaja's Matha and also one at the birthplace of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Yoga-pitha.

[Guest guest]

 

t Srila Prabhupada himself near the end of his prakata lila said, "The war is over now,"

 

So, this is a open admission that Srila Prabhupada had been at war with is Godbrothers for many years and consequently brought his disciples into this war and even wrote about this war in his books that were supposed to be the lawbooks of ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada orderd that nothing in his books should be changed after his departure.

The war was written in the books.

 

It's kinda hard to preach and teach something for more than a decade and then expect to undo all that with a few private words and some donations to projects in India.

 

If Srila Prabhupada truly wanted the war to end, then he should have told the BBT to remove his comments and remarks about that from his books.

 

The "war is over" for Srila Prabhupada because he is not here to fight the war any longer.

However, the war lives on in his books and in the minds of his disciples who depend on those books for guidance and inspiration.

 

There was a war.

it went on for about 12 years.

 

Trying to stop that war is virtually impossible, since the impetus is given in the books of Srila Prabhupada and his instructions to his disciples.

 

The "war is over" means that Srila Prabhupada was requesting his Godbrothers to stop their opposition to him. It was not a mandate for his disciples to join in an orgy of brotherly love with the Gaudiya Math groups.

 

When Prabhupada asked Narayana Maharaja to "help his disciples", that was his humble way of pleading to Narayana Maharja not to do any harm to his disciples and ISKCON.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't want to just come out and ask Narayana Maharaja not to interfere with ISKCON or harm the understanding Srila Prabhupada had given his disciples in ISKCON, so he said it by requesting Narayana Maharaja to help his devotees.

 

"help my devotees" is another way of saying "please don't harm my devotees".

 

It was NOT a license for Narayana Maharaja to assume the position as siksha guru to the disciples of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON.

[Beggar]

 

"help my devotees" is another way of saying "please don't harm my devotees".

 

Srila Prabhupada told both Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Narayana Maharaja that his disciples were like rough stones or "unpolished gems" and he requested both of them to help them. "Help my devotees" is another way of saying "please don't harm my devotees"." Interesting theory but truly farfetched. In fact in the last quarter of a century I've never heard anyone suggest that. Instead of coming up with novel theories like a muni why don't you just pray to Lord Nityananda akanda guru for help.

[Guest guest]

 

"Help my devotees" is another way of saying "please don't harm my devotees"." Interesting theory but truly farfetched. In fact in the last quarter of a century I've never heard anyone suggest that. Instead of coming up with novel theories like a muni why don't you just pray to Lord Nityananda akanda guru for help.

 

Well, it's not a concept that I stayed awake at night trying to fabricate.

 

Srila Prabhupada knew well that Narayana Maharaja was a loose cannon on the deck of the Saraswata Gaudiya ship (with his stint with the babajis whom he appreciated very much).

 

This feeling came to me automatically and instantly as I pondered the words of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's not a feeling that I strained hard to imagine.

It came quite naturally and simply with knowing the orthodox rigidity of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Anyone who doesn't understand the danger and destructive potential that Srila Prabhupada saw in the person of Narayan Maharaja, doesn't get the picture as far as I am concerned.

 

Srila Prabhupada feared the danger and harm that Narayana Maharaja represented.

That is why he tried to appease him by putting him in charge of the samadhi ceremony.

 

Fearing the same threat from the orthodoxy of Vrindavan, Srila Prabhupada hired local pundits to install the deities at the opening of the Krishna-Balarama Mandir in Vrindavan.

 

If we apply the same logic to the pundits of Vrindavan that has been applied to Narayana Maharaja, then we have some orthodox brahmins in Vrindavan that are the successors to Srila Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

 

Well, it's not a concept that I stayed awake at night trying to fabricate.

 

Srila Prabhupada knew well that Narayana Maharaja was a loose cannon on the deck of the Saraswata Gaudiya ship (with his stint with the babajis whom he appreciated very much).

 

This feeling came to me automatically and instantly as I pondered the words of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's not a feeling that I strained hard to imagine.

It came quite naturally and simply with knowing the orthodox rigidity of Narayana Maharaja.

 

Anyone who doesn't understand the danger and destructive potential that Srila Prabhupada saw in the person of Narayan Maharaja, doesn't get the picture as far as I am concerned.

 

Srila Prabhupada feared the danger and harm that Narayana Maharaja represented.

That is why he tried to appease him by putting him in charge of the samadhi ceremony.

 

Fearing the same threat from the orthodoxy of Vrindavan, Srila Prabhupada hired local pundits to install the deities at the opening of the Krishna-Balarama Mandir in Vrindavan.

 

If we apply the same logic to the pundits of Vrindavan that has been applied to Narayana Maharaja, then we have some orthodox brahmins in Vrindavan that are the successors to Srila Prabhupada.

Why don't you open the School of Creative Vaisnava Aparadha? Another idea would be to become a late night TV talk show host and instead of opening with a comedic monologue, you could do an aparadhic monologue.

You could also convert to radical fundamentalist Islam and write monologues for Osama Bin Laden. I could get you an agent.

[Guest guest]

 

Why don't you open the School of Creative Vaisnava Aparadha? Another idea would be to become a late night TV talk show host and instead of opening with a comedic monologue, you could do an aparadhic monologue.

You could also convert to radical fundamentalist Islam and write monologues for Osama Bin Laden. I could get you an agent.

 

I stand behind my words faithfully as what the Lord in my heart has shared with me.

 

I think time will prove my ideas to be correct.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada started a war alright - a war on maya, not on other vaishnavas. Any intelligent person will look at the complete historical record and not make judgements based on selected quotes. For the 'guest' who thinks that Srila Prabhupada had nothing but negative things to say about his god brothers - do you simply skip over the quotes in his books, letters and lectures where he praises them? Where he calls them pure devotees?

 

Srila Prabhupada expected his disciples and followers to embrace Krsna consciousness and become thinking/feeling devotees over time. That means that the disciples will mature and become balanced in their thinking and that they will eventually be able to reconcile apparent contradicitions both relative and absolute.

 

How do you explain Srila Prabhupada sending one of his disciples to Bon Maharaja? How about his sending Acyutananda to Sridhara Maharaja? Or his attempt to get Sridhara Maharaja to take up residence in his temple in Mayapura so that his disciples could benefit from his siksha? These are all a part of the historical record and as such any reasonable person must reconcile these facts with the quotes such as the one from Nectar of Instruction that you have quoted.

 

Here is one way to reconcile some of these sibling rivalry/institutional issues. Srila Prabhupada started a movement with young people with no background in vaishnavism or hinduism for the most part. His young students were very inexperienced and impressionable. In order to protect them and insulate them so that they could progress without becoming confused Srila Prabhupada put up a 'protective barrier' if you will, just as an intelligent person puts a fence around a young tree to protect it when it is very young. In the same way that the young tree will eventually grow up and the protective barrier will no longer be needed or serve any useful purpose - as Srila Prabhupada's disciples grow in their spiritual lives and become fixed they no longer will be confused by the fact that other advanced vaishnavas have different ways of doing things and have different opinions regarding relative issues.

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't want his sisyas to remain kanisthas forever. He expected that his sisyas would practice their sadhana seriously and steadily and that through their dedication they would eventually become purified and steady and be able to advance even more by associating with other advanced sadhakas outside his mission.

 

This is all common sense really. Just read Bhagavad Gita and find out the qualities of a sadhu there. You won't find fault finding or animosity toward other vaishnavas or toward any other living entity listed there.

[Guest guest]

 

I stand behind my words faithfully as what the Lord in my heart has shared with me.

 

I think time will prove my ideas to be correct.

An interesting thing is that you only see Narayana Maharaja blasphemed these on these forums. I don't see anybody throwing stools at any other Indian Gaudiya gurus of his spitirual generation nor do the Narayana Maharaja devotees seem to make offensive counter attacks against the gurus of the people posting the attacks. I just thought this was worth sharing.

[Guest guest]

Those who think that Srila Prabhupada is the only true representive of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or Lord Chaitanya or whatever they think - basically that no devotee is worthy of venertation other than him - will find fault and villify all other vaishnavas who don't see the devotional landscape the way they do. The only reason that Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja is targeted so much on this forum is because some of his followers are very vocal on this board. There is also a history of aggression by some of his 'followers' that many devotees find annoying. In their new found devotion some 'followers' promote him as the only uttama bhakta and in so doing trample on the faith of others by denigrating their guides. (this is not unique to followers of Sripad B.V. Narayana Maharaja by any means)

 

I think the biggest lesson to learn from all the controversy over who to listen to is that faith is very individual and cannot be forced on anyone. Sridhara Maharaja said we should be faith makers not faith breakers so if we follow his lead we help others become more faithful and not seek to 'break' their faith. We should be introspective enough to understand our own motivation in saying something. Are we seeking to help others? Are we seeking to justify and further our own faith somehow by denigrating the faith of others? If this is the case then it clearly falls into the category of 'weak faith requires and enemy'.

 

At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves if we truly want to advance in bhakti. If the answer is yes then the only guaranteed method is to glorify the vaishnavas. Villifying another vaishnava will never have the desired effect of advancing our own faith. It will only serve to distance us from Krsna as he is non-different from his devotees.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada expected his disciples and followers to embrace Krsna consciousness and become thinking/feeling devotees over time. That means that the disciples will mature and become balanced in their thinking and that they will eventually be able to reconcile apparent contradicitions both relative and absolute.

 

Very nicely said, Audarya Lila prabhu. I was thinking the same thing. The example of the small tree and fence is also appropriate. The line moves in a zig-zag motion. Srila Sridhara Maharaja taught us how to harmonize apparent differences. Mature and progressive devotees desire this. Those who wish to portray Srila Prabhupada as someone who despised his Godbrothers, considering them asat sanga do him a great disservice. They do not understand Srila Prabhupada's actual mood and intention, they see only through sectarian-tinted glasses. I feel certain that Srila Prabhupada would be very displeased with those who portray him as an aloof, often-angry loner who rejected his Godbrothers, severing all ties with them for eternity.

 

Srila Prabhupada said "There are many societies of pure devotees." There are many other such statements by Srila Prabhupada, hence the need for harmonizing his <i>apparent</i> contradictory statements.