what r demigods? is lord Shiva a demi God?

[mickey5june]

Hi Everybody,

 

Hare Krishna.

 

i hav just started studying Srila Prabhupada books? I am new to Krishna

conciousness.

 

what and who r demi gods, is lord Shiva a demi God.

It is often seen in pictures that Lord Shiva is meditating sumthing.

what is it?.

what is the difference between Lord Vishnu and Lord krishna.

plz eaplain me nicely,wil be kind of u.

If i chant the "OM NAMO BHAGWATE VASUDEVAYA" instead of

Hare Ksrihna Mahamantra,will it be a different case then?

plz explain me in details i have many doubts in mind.

 

Hare Krishna:pray:

Mukesh ( New Delhi)

[Guest guest]

No, he sure isn't! Lord Shiva is Mahadeva.

[Clarissa]

Keep reading these wonderful books and you will understand. Everyone even the demigods are expansions, representations or powers that come from Krishna, Krishna's body is so immense that it contains all the universes. The more you read the more you will like these books. I just finished reading the 3 volumes of Krishna Personality of Godhead, by Swami Prabupada and now I'm planning to buy the Bhagavad Gita as it is. Happy to know you just started reading. Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Demi-god is prayed with full or partial recognition of saguna aspects. This could include any god or guru, including krishna, as it's more dependant on the nature of worship by the devotee.

 

That's why most sanskrit verses of gods or guru, worship them as nirguna which frees them from any possible status of demi-god.

 

A spiritual person sees himself as nirguna by true nature, while he might look at his image in mirror while shaving or combing his/her hair. This being the case, the greatest of the greatest, krishna, would have seen himself as formless (Nirguna) even when he saw others look at him as a baby and smile.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

As I understand it, demi-gods are jiva-souls like all of us who have attained great power through pious activities, austerities, etc. Kinda like the post of President in the material world. Through their mistakes, they can fall down to a lower position, which is something God does not do.

 

Also, like our material bodies, the bodies of the demi-gods (though made of a more sublime substance, perhaps, or of a more refined nature) must eventually die.

 

While I've never heard of Lord Shiva's body dying, it *is* said that the various Lord Brahmas have a limited life-span. I never understood that, if Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are three aspects of Bhagavan, how Lord Brahma can leave His body. Perhaps, as with the Earthly incarnation of Krishna, Lord Brahma is displaying some pastime (lila). Perhaps someone can shed some light.

 

Gaura hari!!

[Guest guest]

Can Someone Define "demi-god" Which Sanskrit Word Is Translated To Be "half-god" ? Is There Such A Thing ?-- I Think If Understand That We Can Move On

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Can Someone Define "demi-god" Which Sanskrit Word Is Translated To Be "half-god" ? Is There Such A Thing ?-- I Think If Understand That We Can Move On

 

Must be "Dev" (or "deva" and "devi") . We hear about Indra-dev, Surya-dev, Varuna-dev. Of course, this appears not to be an absolute, since we also hear of Lakshmi Devi (and she is a direct expansion of Bhagavan if I am not mistaken) and Viraha-dev (the boar incarnation of the Lord).

 

"Demi-god" is a better term than "half-god" since, since God is infinite, half of infinity is still infinite. The jiva soul is described as infinitessimal, that is possessing negligible potency in comparison to God while being qualitatively similar (identical even?) to God. "Demi-" indicates similarity, but with dimished status.

[Guest guest]

Murali_Mohan_das ,

 

THANK YOU !

[Guest guest]

Shiva is definitely a "demi-God" as propagated by some bogus fanatics.

 

Read the following section reads from the 13th book of the Mahabharata which is very important!! Here Yudhishthira is asking Bhishma Pitamah about Lord Shiva. While Krishna stands near and listens. Bhishma tells the following and then requests Krsna to tell Yudhisthira about Lord Shiva. Later Krsna elaborately describes Yudhishthira of his devotion and penances that he performed for a thousand years to please lord Shiva. Please read the whole thing.

 

 

SECTION XIV

 

"Yudhishthira said, 'O son of the River Ganga, thou hast heard all the names of Maheshwara, the Lord of the universe. Do thou tell us, O grandsire, all the names that are applied, O puissant one, unto Him who is called Isa and Sambhu. Do thou tell us all those names that are applied unto Him who is called Vabhru or vast, Him that has the universe for his form, Him that is the illustrious preceptor of all the deities and the Asuras, that is called Swayambhu (self-creating) and that is the cause of the origin and dissolution of the universe. Do thou tell us also of the puissance of Mahadeva.'

 

"Bhishma said, 'I am quite incompetent to recite the virtues of Mahadeva of highest intelligence. He pervades all things in the universe and yet is not seen anywhere. He is the creator of universal self and the Pragna (knowing) self and he is their master. All the deities, from Brahman to the Pisachas, adore and worship him. He transcends both Prakriti and Purusha. It is of Him that Rishis, conversant with Yoga and possessing a knowledge of the tattwas, think and reflect. He is indestructible and Supreme Brahman. He is both existent and non-existent. Agitating both Prakriti and Purusha by means of His energy, He created therefrom the universal lord of creatures, viz., Brahma. Who is there that is competent to tell the virtues of that god of gods, that is endued with supreme Intelligence? Man is subject to conception (in the mother's womb), birth, decrepitude, and death. Being such, what man like me is competent to understand Bhava? Only Narayana, O son, that bearer of the discus and the mace, can comprehend Mahadeva. He is without deterioration. He is the foremost of all beings in attributes. He is Vishnu, because of his pervading the universe. He is irresistible. Endued with spiritual vision, He is possessed of supreme Energy. He sees all things with the eye of Yoga. It is in consequence of the devotion of the high-souled Krishna to the illustrious Rudra whom he gratified. O Bharata, in the retreat of Vadari, by penances, that he has succeeded in pervading the entire universe. O king of kings, it is through Maheswara of celestial vision that Vasudeva has obtained the attribute of universal agreeableness,--an agreeableness that is much greater than what is possessed by all articles included under the name of wealth. 1 For a full thousand years this Madhava underwent the austerest penances and at last succeeded in gratifying the illustrious and boon giving Siva, that Master of all the mobile and the immobile universe. In every new Yuga has Krishna (by such penances) gratified Mahadeva. In every Yuga has Mahadeva been gratified with the great devotion of the high-souled Krishna. How great is the puissance of the high-souled Mahadeva,--that original cause of the universe,--has been seen with his own eyes by Hari who himself transcends all deterioration, on the occasion of his penances in the retreat of Vadari undergone for obtaining a son. 2 I do not, O Bharata, behold any one that is superior to Mahadeva. To expound the names of that god of gods fully and without creating the desire of hearing more only Krishna is competent. This mighty-armed one of Yadu's race is alone competent to tell the attributes of the illustrious Siva. Verily, O king, only he is able to discourse on the puissance, in its entirety of the Supreme deity?'

 

Hi Everybody,

 

Hare Krishna.

 

i hav just started studying Srila Prabhupada books? I am new to Krishna

conciousness.

 

what and who r demi gods, is lord Shiva a demi God.

It is often seen in pictures that Lord Shiva is meditating sumthing.

what is it?.

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva is definitely a "demi-God" as propagated by some bogus fanatics.

 

Shiva is definitely NOT a demi-God!!

[Raguraman]

 

Shiva is definitely a "demi-God" as propagated by some bogus fanatics.

Lord Shiva is most definitely a Demigod.

 

The quoted verses from Mahabharata are to be rejected as concocted or included in Mahabarata for the simple fact that these verses are in direct opposition to Veda Pramanas.

 

Shatapatha Brahmana (6.1.3.3-20) clearly state that RudrA being born of BrahmA. In addition, RudrA in these verses cries and asks BrahmA to eradicate his sins by giving him names. Thereafter BrahmA gives RudrA seven names as UgrA, RudrA etc.

 

6.1.3.9

tam prajApatirabraviit | kumaara kíM rodiSi yachrámaattápasó 'dhi jaato 'siíti so& 'braviidánapahatapaapmaa vaá asmyáhitanaamaa naama ma dhehiíti tásmaatputrásya jaatásya naáma kuryaatpaapmaánamevaa&sya tadápahantyápi dvitiíyamápi tRtiíyamabhipUrvámevaa&sya tátpaapmaánamápahanti

 

Rudra is anapahatapaapmaa i.e. Rudra is not freed from EVIL

In Ishavasyaupanishad, Lord Narayana (Yajna an avatara of Narayana )is explained as without any doshas or evil.

 

Hence by this verse alone(Veda being the highest paramana or authority), RudrA Deva is not the Supreme being.

[Yogkriya]

..oops someone just woke up in the US to decide the position of Lord Shiva!

Lord Shiva who while blinks an eyelid - several of Brahma's nights pass... One Brahma's day is the complete cycle of all yugas.. Now we have someone who can finally give a verdict on Lord Shiva. Great!!

 

This can be decided by someone who knows Shiva.

And as stated in the Mahabharata, no one except Krishna knew Shiva at the time. Now the time is more degraded. If you are a Prabhupada disciple, then Prabhupada definitely is NO authority on Lord Shiva!

 

Secondly, if quotes from Mahabharata are to be rejected, then you will have to reject the whole story of the Pandavas as concocted. And you will have to dismiss Bhagwat Gita itself as concocted. Bhagwat Gita is just a part of Mahabharata!!! Rigveda or SamaVeda don't talk about the Pandavas either.

Further, you will have to reject the exhistence of Radha as a Vedic character. That nullifies your claim that Gaudiyas and Iskcon are propagating Vedic culture. The only mention of Radha that one of your fellow devotees could show me was in the so called Amala Purana Bhagwatam. That too at just one place. And the translation and purport were wrong. 'Aradhita' was translated as "mentioning of Radha in a concealed way since the author fell in to a trance as soon as he pronounced the word Radha." Of course this is a lot of speculation, since the author couldn't fall into a trance by remembering Lord Krishna himself, Lord Rama or Shiva but fell into a trance by merely saying Radha. This explaination is at the most laughable.

 

Furthermore you will have to reject a lot more things that you consider Vedic if everything is to be understood and conculded in such a speculative manner.

 

Shiva is not a Demi God to start with. This Demi God propaganda comes from the gaudiya kitchen.

If you reject Krishna's worship of Mahadeva as GOD and begetting a son from his boon and mercy then you definitely are in illusion. This is a proven fact widely accepted. Umm.. but the Gaudiyas live in their own special world though, and nothing seems to ever bring them up or out of it.

 

If you reject Krishna's taking Pashupat Diksha (initiation) from the great sage Upmanyu Rishi, then again you are at your liberty to do so.

You can also reject Rama's worshipping Shiva at Rameshwaram and Rama's worshipping Shiva after receiving Virja Diksha from Agastya Muni. Nobody rejects the authority of Agastya. You may also reject altogether the Valmiki Ramayana and guess what? You can reject the greatest Rishi that history has known - Vishwamitra!! You can reject Vishwamitra's words spoken to Rama who in his previous incarnation as Vamadeva worshipped Shiva too.

 

Further more you can reject the illustrous Queen Kunti who was a staunch Shiva devotee. If you happen to go to India to a place called Bhojpur, you can still see the 21 feet tall Shiva Linga that Kunti used to worship. From its height you can imagine the size of that great Queen. You can also reject the austerities of Queen Gandhari, another staunch Shiva devotee who at the end of Mahabharat war cursed Krishna that his generation will end in genocide. And this happened indeed. You can also reject queen Rukmini - the dear wife of Krishna who was going to worship at the Shiva temple before her marriage when Krishna came to abduct her. The tradition was to go to the Shiva temple to worship Shiva before any auspicious and important event in life.

Yes you can reject any quotes from Mahabharata!! You can take only those ones that you can understand and believe. Others you can reject - even though the speaker of the text is Krishna himself!! Even though the speaker of the text is Bhishma. Even though the speaker of the text is the Lord himself. Doesn't matter. Because when you become a part of a sect, your mind is controlled by its shortmindedness.

 

BUT, I fail to understand that if you so staunchly follow Bhagwat Gita which is just a part of Mahabharata, then why do you quote Padma Purana and not accept Shiva Gita which is also a part of it!! Do you accept Puranas in parts? or at convenience?

Now why would someone concoct verses in mahabharata to be in direct opposition to Vedas?? I can't see the logic behind your speculation at all.

 

If Narsimha appeared out of a wall, does this mean that he was born out of a wall?? This is the speculation. If you read the Shiva Mahapurana carefully and read the time of Shiva's marriage to Parvati, he was asked his Gotra! I guess it may not be of importance to you since (if you are American) you may not have any Gotra at all! But Shiva says his father is Brahma, then he is asked, who is his grandfather? Shiva says Vishnu! And again he is asked who is his great garadfather? He replies that he himself is his greatgrandfather. I would not go into quoting exact phrases from Shiva Purana here. But this is what we accept. If you belong to a sect that is essentially driven by sakhi/gopi mood concentrating on Krishna alone then you can talk about Krishna, but you can't be an authority on Shiva / Rudra!

 

Shiva resides in the hearts of Gods, as quoted by Atanu in a previous message somewhere.

 

Further, if you believe Shiva as "Evil" (you are quoting this to imply it) and this gets your spiritual life into trouble, then you shoul give instances where Shiva/Rudra is evil. What happened to all his benevolent forms that protect his devotees? What happened to all his wonderful lilas that are even rare for Gods to witness? Rudra is beyond your understanding!! Krishna recites 1008 names of Shiva to please him. Now was Krishna pleasing and worshipping evil? Where is your logic man? There is a height to fanaticism!

 

Read again the appearance of the fire linga that permeated all the universes that neither Brahma or Vishnu could understand. That is Rudra, that is Shiva, that is Mahadeva, he is Adi deva!! He is not Visvambhar Mishra nor Prabhupada. Shiva is Mahakaal! Beyond the boundaries of time and space. His maya permeates the universes, but he himself is not affected by any maya nor is affected by any of the three gunas.

 

Also, you quoted Veda, but you don't read any!!! Prabhupada never allowed his disciples to carry extensive Vedic studies. On the contrary he instructed people to read ONLY literature translated by him and him alone. So again you are in direct opposition to your lineage, belief. Another double standard.

 

Conclusively, you can ignore this message all together and move on with your life believing Shiva is evil and Mahabharat is concocted story. No offenses. But if you simply come up to a site to inflict offenses, then that's not all that fair.

 

Om Namah Shivaya !!!

 

 

 

 

Lord Shiva is most definitely a Demigod.

 

The quoted verses from Mahabharata are to be rejected as concocted or included in Mahabarata for the simple fact that these verses are in direct opposition to Veda Pramanas.

 

Shatapatha Brahmana (6.1.3.3-20) clearly state that RudrA being born of BrahmA. In addition, RudrA in these verses cries and asks BrahmA to eradicate his sins by giving him names. Thereafter BrahmA gives RudrA seven names as UgrA, RudrA etc.

 

6.1.3.9

tam prajApatirabraviit | kumaara kíM rodiSi yachrámaattápasó 'dhi jaato 'siíti so& 'braviidánapahatapaapmaa vaá asmyáhitanaamaa naama ma dhehiíti tásmaatputrásya jaatásya naáma kuryaatpaapmaánamevaa&sya tadápahantyápi dvitiíyamápi tRtiíyamabhipUrvámevaa&sya tátpaapmaánamápahanti

 

Rudra is anapahatapaapmaa i.e. Rudra is not freed from EVIL

In Ishavasyaupanishad, Lord Narayana (Yajna an avatara of Narayana )is explained as without any doshas or evil.

 

Hence by this verse alone(Veda being the highest paramana or authority), RudrA Deva is not the Supreme being.

[Raguraman]

 

..oops someone just woke up in the US to decide the position of Lord Shiva!

Lord Shiva who while blinks an eyelid - several of Brahma's nights pass... One Brahma's day is the complete cycle of all yugas.. Now we have someone who can finally give a verdict on Lord Shiva. Great!!

Instead of deciding who woke up or not, you must contend with the Sruti verse which states very clearly that Lord Shiva is a demogod and is below BrahmA in position. Note that the verses are from Vedas(Sruti) and I dare you explain this verse, where RudrA(Lord Shiva) himself states that he is sinful.

 

Can you give any logical arguments without any personal attacks.

 

Also all your statements in Mahabaratha are concocted or mistranslated simply based on the vedic verse quoted from Shatapatha Brahmana.

 

The point to note is that SRUTI is a higher authority than Itihaasas.

 

Hence RudrA Deva is a demigod period. Your emotional rants are irrelevant.

[Yogkriya]

You could give no answer to all I've written, simply dismissing it as emotional rant!

What Rudra are you talking about? There are thousands of Rudras!!!

Brahma says that about one Rudra, but look what Brahma says elsewhere while worshipping Lord Siva!!! He hails Shiva as the top most deity to be worshiped and recognizes him as the master of the universe too!! You don't quote that! Why not?

 

Are you really talking about Lord Sadashiva? We are talking about Shiva here! I dare you show me one place where Krishna - your top most object of worship says that Lord Sadashiva is a mere "Demi-God"! Krishna never said that. He lived on this planet for about 112 to 125 years according to different souces. Since he didn't say that, you bring up other scriptures to back up your nonsense. But when it comes to Krishna, you only quote what Krishna said. In other cases, you simply ignore even what Krishna says. This clarifies your sect's position as non-Vedic. You do not follow Vedic sadhna systems.

If you are a Hare Krishna then the reading of Vedas is not for you. Because - Prabhupada didn't instruct on that. Then you are in direct opposition to your own lineage Guru and this discredits your statement. You are out of line.

 

Let's see about your rant now. Just suppose for one micro second that Lord Shiva is a "Demi-God". Now you follow the Bhagwat Gita where Devkinandan says not to follow Demi-Gods. Prabhupada translates - "men of inferior knowledge worship 'Demi-Gods' ". Then why would this Krishna worship Lord Shiva - a so claimed "Demi-God" with so much sincerity and devotion??? This would now prove that Krishna was a man of inferior knowledge? He was if I have to follow your logic!!

Again Krishna was born of Devaki. Why don't you replace Krishna idol with Devaki on your altar then?

 

Further more, I would like the GBC members to issue a statement that Mahabharata is concocted!!! This is the stupidest emotional desperate statement that I am hearing from someone who wants to prove their point. Maybe I should write a letter asking Bhaktivaibhava GoSwami or Gopal Krishna GoSwami for their opinion on this..

By the way, the same translated English version of Mahabharata was also given to me by a GBC member from the US.

If this is mistranslated, then where is the real translation. Why couldn't Prabhupada translate this? Because this glorifies Lord Shiva? And now you have problem with this? Problem - where Krishna himself glorifies Shiva?

 

Again, if I have to believe you, then Narsimha dev is below the pillar position from which it appeared! ;-) So we can assume that the Pillar is greater than Narsimhadev. Let's worship the stone pillar instead then.

 

 

 

Instead of deciding who woke up or not, you must contend with the Sruti verse which states very clearly that Lord Shiva is a demogod and is below BrahmA in position. Note that the verses are from Vedas(Sruti) and I dare you explain this verse, where RudrA(Lord Shiva) himself states that he is sinful.

 

Can you give any logical arguments without any personal attacks.

 

Also all your statements in Mahabaratha are concocted or mistranslated simply based on the vedic verse quoted from Shatapatha Brahmana.

 

The point to note is that SRUTI is a higher authority than Itihaasas.

 

Hence RudrA Deva is a demigod period. Your emotional rants are irrelevant.

[Yogkriya]

Also since Vedas are the highest authority, what's the need of books like CC and SB?

 

If you really believe Vedas to be highest authority, then read those quotes as well, posted by Atanu from Rig Veda and Sama Veda hailing Lord Rudra / Shiva!! Why would you reject them? They are Vedas alright!!

Om Namah Shivaya!

Jai Gurudev!

[Yogesh from za]

Please becareful of making Vaishnava Aparaadh by blaspheming against Lord Shiva also called Mahadev. There was also a similar sampradaya (lineage) like the Gaudiya Lineage we follow called the Rudra Sampradaya.

 

I am sure other more knowladgable devotees could give more information about the Rudra samradaya (lineage)

 

To Yogi Prabhu...

 

On the point of your quote " His maya permeates the Universe, but he Himself is not affected by Maya nor is he affected by any other three gunas"

 

There are many instances in the pastimes of Lord Shiva where he becomes enraged or attracted.

I am not sure if you recall the incident where when the Devtas And Asuras were churning the Ocean for Nectar. After the nectar was churned and by the grace of Lord Shiva who was asked to remove the poison, There was a a quarel between The 2 sides over who should have the nectar. So Lord Vishnu appeared in the attractive female form as Mohini to take the nectar away from the demons. When Lord Shiva saw the attractive form of the Lord Immediately he lost all composure and ran after her even though Mother Parvati was present.

 

Only great lerned personalities will understand the great relationship between Lord Shiva And Lord Vishnu.

 

Is this just another "story" that you would like to dismiss....

and many other "stories"????

 

On the point of all the Avatars of Godhead i.e. Ram, Krsna Bhagavan etc.and great personalities like Queen Kunti praying to Lord Shiva so what???

Lord Rama took on the Manushya Avtaar as well as All Other Avatars and as was always the Manushya tradition to Pray to Lord Shiva according to custom and tradition.

 

And Rukmini prayed to Lord Shiva to beget a Good Husband and look at her great fortuin of attaining Bhagawan Swayam as her Husband through the mercy of Lord Shiva.

 

What can we learn from these Great Personalities like Queen Kunti, Rukmini etc... who prayed to Lord Shiva??? We can learn to pray and ask A Great Boon From Lord Shiva that he may give us some of his mercy so that we may attain (like Rukmini) Krsna Bhagawan and go back to Vaikunt or Hari Dham

 

All Glories to Topmost VAisnava Mahadev ( Har Har Mahadev!!!)

 

All Glories to HDG Sirla Prabhupada (Dear servant of the Topmost servant Mahadev Servant of Lord Hari)

 

Hare Krsna

[atanu]

 

----Note that the verses are from Vedas(Sruti) and I dare you explain this verse, where RudrA(Lord Shiva) himself states that he is sinful.

 

 

 

Namaskar Raghu,

 

It is God who is deluding you. Usha is daughter of Rudra only (I have to be careful, since you people think that Rudra, Krishna are all fleshy bodies). Usha is the shine of the pure consciousness that Rudra is and many who have see the light in meditation will know. This pure consciousness is known as the Supreme seer.

 

 

RV10.061.05 (Rudra), the benefactor of man, whose eager, virile energy was developed, drew it back when disseminated (for the generation of offfspring); again the irresistible (Rudra) concentrates (the energy) which was communicated to his maiden daughter.

RV 10.061.06 When the deed was done in mid-heaven in the proximity of the father working his will, and the daughter coming together, they let the seed fall slightly; it was poured upon the high place of sacrifice.

RV 10.061.07 When the father united with the daughter, then associating with the earth, he sprinkled it with the effusion; then the thoughtful gods begot Brahma; they fabricated the lord of the hearth (of sacrifice); the defender of sacred rites

Brahma is a mental concept of Devas and so is Brahmanspati. There is none other than one EKO RUDRA, who in the “A” state of AUM is the seer of variety. He alone dreams (U) and He alone is Pragnya (M). He as all pervading Visnu takes these three steps but He is the highest state of Visnu, which sages meditate on.

 

 

 

Svet. Up.

yo devaanaaM prabhavashchodbhavashcha

vishvaadhipo rudro maharshhiH

hiraNyagarbha.n janayaamaasa puurva.n

sa no buddhyaa shubhayaa sa.nyunaktu .. 3.4..

</PRE>

3.4. He, the creator and supporter of the gods, Rudra, the great seer, the lord of all, he who formerly gave birth to Hiranyagarbha, may he endow us with good thoughts.

</PRE>

Rudra is progenitor of Hiraynagarbha and not son of Brahma. What you say is like saying that a wall was the progenitor of Nrisimha. And please note that Rudra is prayed to open up the Buddhi. No wonder that some intellects are clogged.

[Yogkriya]

 

Please becareful of making Vaishnava Aparaadh by blaspheming against Lord Shiva also called Mahadev. There was also a similar sampradaya (lineage) like the Gaudiya Lineage we follow called the Rudra Sampradaya.

 

I am sure other more knowladgable devotees could give more information about the Rudra samradaya (lineage)

 

Thank you for your answer Yogesh. Makes sense.

[Yogkriya]

Only great personalities can understand the Shiva-Krishna; Shiva Rama relationship. It is very special. And my emphasis has been on recognizing the beauty of it, rather than keep up the God positioning agenda.

And no, I don't dismiss this as "another story".

Shiva burned Kama Deva to ashes. Shiva cannot be affected by Kama. So he cannot be thought of as a simple man's lust forcing him to indulge into mundane sexual activity! Its a sin to think like that. Shiva sees things from the eye of yoga and not from an ordinary materialistic view. He is also Ardhnarishwara who has complete realized male and female energies within. His relation with Mohini avatara of Vishnu is beyond understanding of ordinary souls. Just like Krishna's stealing the clothes of gopis is NOT to be understood by a viewpoint of sexual lust.

 

Shiva says: "I'm in the heart of Vishnu and Vishnu is in my heart ever. This is the highest secret and no one knows it." He further adds - "those devotees of mine who condemn Vishnu or devotees of Vishnu who condemn me go to the low lying hell called 'Raurav'."

 

There is no question of his being "servant" or "dasa" of Krishna or Krishna being a dasa. This relation is of greatest affection and love. It is to be understood and accepted as it is without perching one above the other.

Simply because we don't have the knowledge of the self to start with. And we want to understand the Shiva Tatva. This is not possible. Self realization is important.

 

 

 

:To Yogi Prabhu...

 

On the point of your quote " His maya permeates the Universe, but he Himself is not affected by Maya nor is he affected by any other three gunas"

 

There are many instances in the pastimes of Lord Shiva where he becomes enraged or attracted.

I am not sure if you recall the incident where when the Devtas And Asuras were churning the Ocean for Nectar. After the nectar was churned and by the grace of Lord Shiva who was asked to remove the poison, There was a a quarel between The 2 sides over who should have the nectar. So Lord Vishnu appeared in the attractive female form as Mohini to take the nectar away from the demons. When Lord Shiva saw the attractive form of the Lord Immediately he lost all composure and ran after her even though Mother Parvati was present.

 

Only great lerned personalities will understand the great relationship between Lord Shiva And Lord Vishnu.

 

Is this just another "story" that you would like to dismiss....

and many other "stories"????

[atanu]

 

----

Let's see about your rant now. Just suppose for one micro second that Lord Shiva is a "Demi-God". Now you follow the Bhagwat Gita where Devkinandan says not to follow Demi-Gods. Prabhupada translates - "men of inferior knowledge worship 'Demi-Gods' ". Then why would this Krishna worship Lord Shiva - a so claimed "Demi-God" with so much sincerity and devotion??? This would now prove that Krishna was a man of inferior knowledge? He was if I have to follow your logic!!

 

 

 

Nice logic.

 

But dear Yogikriya Come out of here and meditate or go anywhere else, or they will succeed to induce Krishna dvesh in you and that should not happen.

 

They have forgotten the story of destruction of yadus and they have not read SB fully: or they would see:

 

From SB

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

 

The light of cognition within everyone is Lord Shiva -- 'shivoadvaitam Turiya' as it is called in Mandukya Upanishad. Some people harm their own Self (unknowingly of course). This is called ego.

[Yogkriya]

ummm.. lol ! Yes I can see why.

 

 

 

Namaskar Raghu,

 

Rudra is progenitor of Hiraynagarbha and not son of Brahma. What you say is like saying that a wall was the progenitor of Nrisimha. And please note that Rudra is prayed to open up the Buddhi. No wonder that some intellects are clogged.

[Yogkriya]

Agreed Atanu. This evokes only offenses. Nothing comes out of God positioning agenda that the Gaudiyas follow. Fact still remains to be true that without any self realization or elevation of one's spiritual level, there is no liberation. What planet krishna lives or shiva lives or whether it is ten miles higher or lower is irrelevant unless one becomes qualified to reach there. And qualification can come only by sadhna, not by plain book reading or vedantic discussions. God is also the highest rasa, and rasa can only be experienced - not debated. Nobody was able to touch him by debates.

When Arjuna had to seek help from Lord Shiva, he went into a forest and did sadhna for many days. With proper knowledge of mantra, pranayama, bandha, mudras, shaktipaat and meditation. Krishna himself reveals this kriya in Bhagwat Gita. But, maybe instead he should've gone for book distribution or nama-hata?

 

Before I came in contact with them, I was neutral and didn't know this God positioning thing. But slowly I became a bit defensive about it with a lot of provocation. not good. But my position on Shiva and Vishnu (Rama, Krishna) is clear. I'm a Shiva devotee, but worship both and see the closest relation between the two to a point that they are no more two but one.

SadaShiva creates as Brahma, sustains as Vishnu and destroys as Rudra.

One may also think the same for Vishnu. Here all the arguments end personally for me in this respect.

Thanks for your messages and vital quotes. My best wishes and appreciation.

 

 

 

Nice logic.

 

But dear Yogikriya Come out of here and meditate or go anywhere else, or they will succeed to induce Krishna dvesh in you and that should not happen.

 

They have forgotten the story of destruction of yadus and they have not read SB fully: or they would see:

 

From SB

 

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

 

 

The light of cognition within everyone is Lord Shiva -- 'shivoadvaitam Turiya' as it is called in Mandukya Upanishad. Some people harm their own Self (unknowingly of course). This is called ego.

[Yogesh from za]

When I use the term "servant" it does not make someone less. But it shows their Love for that personality.

 

Let me make an example. The relationship between a man and wife. If there is lot of Love between the two and the wife takes on "servant" or servitude role does that make her less??

 

No it shows her Greatness and the husband would reciprocate in the same way.

 

If you are going away to the forest to meditate I wish you all the Best in attaining the mercy of Lord Shiva and If I could ask a Little favour.....If Lord Shiva may give me a little of his mercy that I may become a better devotee and follow Sirla Prabhupadas teachings without causing Vaishnava Aparaadh.

 

Yes sometimes I can become emotional But what to do? I am a personalist (not impersonalist) and as you are very much attracted to Lord Shiva, I am very much attracted to Lord Krsna and All Vishnu Avatars and All Dear Devotees. But onething I will not allow my emotions to cause Vaishnava Aparaadh.

 

I am still learning and growing and maybe by the mercy of all Bhaktas (Krsna or Shiva) I may reach my goal of becoming a servant of the servant of my most beloved object of worship Lord Krsna.

 

So I ask for forgiveness if I have offended You or any other devotees.

Wishing You all the Best in your Sadhana

[atanu]

 

When I use the term "servant" it does not make someone less. But it shows their Love for that personality.

 

I am still learning and growing and maybe by the mercy of all Bhaktas (Krsna or Shiva) I may reach my goal of becoming a servant of the servant of my most beloved object of worship Lord Krsna.

 

So I ask for forgiveness if I have offended You or any other devotees.

Wishing You all the Best in your Sadhana

 

 

 

These are all worldly concepts, dear Yogesh. A father serves his children with all his resources. A mother does so. God having provided life, air, water, fire, food etc., is actually the greatest servant to us.

 

Saying this is no aparadha and I can say it boldly again and again. Those who say that they are serving God are egotists. With what they can serve God? With God's energy? With God's resources? With God's intelligence? What one has that is not from God?

 

 

Only a superior can serve and support a weaker one. Maruts, progeny of Rudra, serve everyone, including you. They are your prana and your senses. It is worldly, filmi and egoist concept that one who serves becomes lower. No. No. No. People with worldly mind cannot grasp the significance of scripture.

 

 

Take for example, the Maha Upanishad. Narrow minded say: See Naraayana gave birth to Lord Shiva, so Naraayana is greater. They forget that what is not there cannot take birth fresh. Nothing is born out of nothing. All manifestations are of Satya only. Shiva is always within. Narayana having felt lonely and having felt sad meditated for long and then Shiva manifested. Narayana and Shiva are different or same? Shiva represents the best that is in Naraayana, who is the best that is there in me --- the pure awareness -- the Satya. Shiva knowledge is given to us by Naraayana alone. Only Naraayana can make him manifest. Not you or I, until I know Narayaana, Shiva will not be known.

 

But someday?

 

Naraayana is Param Braham Tattwa. Rudra is Param Brahman Purusha. And the Self -- the Atma is nameless shivoadvaitam Turiya. It is ONE.

 

 

Nrisinhatapini Upanishad

naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghana madR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNa\-

machintyamachintyamavyapadeshyamaikaatmyapratyayasaaraM

prapa~nchopashama.n shiva.n shaantamadvaita.n chaturthaM

manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neya iishvaragraasasturiiyasturiiyaH

eshha sarveshvara eshha sarvaj~na eshho.antaryaamyeshha

yoniH sarvasya prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaa.n

naantaHpraj~na.n na bahiHpraj~na.n nobhayataHpraj~na.n

na praj~na.n naapraj~na.n na praj~naanaghanamadR^ishhTa\-

mavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNamachintyamavyapadeshya\-

maikaatmyapratyayasaaraM prapa~nchopashama.n shaanta.n

shivamadvaita.n chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa vij~neyaH

 

 

 

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH

na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .

tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM

praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n

ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .

patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-

vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..

6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.

And this mahesvara will be known when one knows Vishnu and Shiva together.

 

 

Best Wishes.

[Raguraman]

 

You could give no answer to all I've written, simply dismissing it as emotional rant!

What Rudra are you talking about?

 

When Vedas mention RudrA in singular, it refers to only Lord Shiva, the dweller of Kailasa, Umapati.

 

 

There are thousands of Rudras!!!

 

There are only 11 Rudras as per Vedas, including Lord Shiva, Umapati.

 

 

 

Brahma says that about one Rudra, but look what Brahma says elsewhere while worshipping Lord Siva!!! He hails Shiva as the top most deity to be worshiped and recognizes him as the master of the universe too!! You don't quote that! Why not?

 

Nonesense and proven wrong by the same Shatapatha Brahmana verses.

 

 

Are you really talking about Lord Sadashiva? We are talking about Shiva here! I dare you show me one place where Krishna - your top most object of worship says that Lord Sadashiva is a mere "Demi-God"!

 

All these verses are concocted and must be rejected as it opposes Sruti. By the way, there is no SadaShiva etc. which some schools have manufactured. Perhaps you should try to answer or give an argument against the Sruti verse logically intead of giving more emotional rants.

 

I will reply only to logical replies from now.