Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Who or What? BY: PRAGHOSA DASA (ACBSP) Jul 15, NEW YORK (SUN) — "Who will be your successor Srila Prabhupada?" - "My success is already there!" Dear Murali Krsna Swami, Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Maharaja - your comments are a good example of the kind of sentiments that are stirred when "subjectively assigned value" is not objectively accepted by the others. You are certainly entitled to think or say whatever - but in a forum such as this - when you accuse anyone of actually offending another devotee - you should do so by directly providing evidence of that. Factual evidence. Bruised sentiment is not evidence for that could be based on misperception or assumption. "I am not feeling too happy about what you said prabhu" is not evidence of offense and that is basically what you offered. I never addressed my comments to the person of Loka Guru, HH Narayana Swami or HH Gour Govinda Maharaja. I disagreed with Loka prabhu's essential premise leading to the conclusion that HH Narayana Maharaja is the natural successor to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and we need him or someone of his stature in order to fully understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. I disagree with anyone who would claim that Srila Prabhupada's books are now in his physical absence - undecipherable and incapable of "activating" our natural urge to serve and love Lord Sri Krsna. My letter to Loka Guru prabhu on this subject simply states that I do not concur with the conclusions he has arrived at in this regard. I am not independent in this matter. I could not agree with him - precisely because my study of and experience of Srila Prabhupada instructed us quite to the contrary and none of us are independent of Srila Prabhupada in this or any matter. Srila Prabhupada was always tolerant of the various slips and errors committed by his devotees - but the history of his lila here showed that he spared NO ONE - not even his godbrothers who were considered highly fixed up - if they provided the slightest glimmer of deviation to the will and teachings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. That kind of mistake was always the result of either deliberately rejecting Srila Prabhupada's authorized explanation of the facts - or deliberately disobeying Srila Prabhupada's orders to confine ourselves to his authority alone and accepting another authority as being the equal of Srila Prabhupada's (without his sanction) with the end result being a diminished faith in Srila Prabhupada and then diminished enthusiasm in serving him. So my unwillingness to relent on this point is permanent. You would do yourself a huge favor if you approached this matter less passionately. Calling me names is useless. You would do well to list the actual errors in my statements or my conclusions. Anyone who offers that Srila Prabhupada's books are not comprehensible without the assistance of the pure devotees - without offering Srila Prabhupada's authorized explanation of what constitutes such a pure devotee - has only provided a half-truth at best! Likewise if anyone claims that despite Srila Prabhupada's countless claims that "he will live forever in his books" or that his purports are the "recorded pure chanting of the pure devotee" and hearing them is non-different from hearing from him seated upon the Vyasasana - then that person's understanding of Srila Prabhupada and his mission - is in need of some serious fine tuning. Likewise - anyone who implies that the locally placed disciples and grand-disciples of Srila Prabhupada - who have assumed the wonderful responsibility of coordinating the samkirtan mission in their respective "Prabhu datta desa" on behalf of His Divine race Srila Prabhupada, and doing so while carefully following the 4 regulative principles and strictly chanting their prescribed rounds daily - are not the "pure devotees" that all Srila Prabhupada's books guide us to hear from, has taken a position directly antagonistic to the teachings of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and our Parampara. Hearing from the lips of the pure devotee is most natural for all those who seek to know of Krsna! Were not the residents of Vrndavana always hearing and repeating the very pleasing activities of the Lord as His day passed from sandhya to sandhya? When Uddhava came to visit - did he not hold them enthralled with his depictions of the Lord? Did not fair Rukmini - say to herself "In the matter of my marriage - it is Krsna or no one!" after merely hearing of the beauty and glorious and heroic deeds of Krsna! Did not Raghunatha Das Goswami abandon all aspiration for the things of this world - upon hearing of the Glories of Mahaprabhu? And did not Murali Krsna Swami not take up the process of devotional service of Lord Gauranga - in earnest - after hearing of the Lord - through His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and/or his dutiful servants? Was not Patrick Hedemark rescued from hell - merely by the prodding of his best friend who insisted he read and submit to what he heard from the lips of the pure devotee Srila Prabhupada, in the delightful book called "The Perfection of Yoga" way back in 1972? I do not disagree with the principle of hearing from the pure devotee to progress in our pleasing Lord Krsna. That is not possible. Where I disagree with men like Loka Guru prabhu and some others is in their insistence that only particular men - chosen by them, who make public claims to particular level of understanding and purity and/or ability to satisfy the Lord - yet unverifiable, merit our submissive and exclusive hearing. We need to hear from those devotees who can provide us the impetus and means to become 100% pleasing to our Srila Prabhupada. If or when we find them - we can explain to others the enormous benefit we have found in their guidance and service. However to scorn those who do not share our faith in any particular Vaisnava can never yield anything but conflict and rancor. It is this intentional rancor I correctly oppose. Your comments to me demonstrate that it is YOU that feels insulted not HH Gour Govinda Goswami. "How dare this upstart disagree with my chosen guide! Does he not recognize my intelligence? The purity of MY intention? The good fortune that the Lord has invested in me? The enormous discretion I have exhibited in my choice of this one - above all others? Does he not understand that I reflected long and deeply upon ALL the available candidates - and I - Murali Krsna Swami - PERSONALLY exhibited my power of discernment in culling this Goswami from the ranks of the ordinary? Does he not recognize that the mere fact that he dares to disagree with a statement of MY CHOSEN AVATAR PROVES his own envious, ignorant and arrogant nature? THIS is proof that this man has not understood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada." It is precisely this kind of mentality that is fostered by the particular "spin" on our Srila Prabhupada's teachings - that is the driving force of the arguments made by my dear friends and brothers Loka Guru and Bhagavat Das. Now you have jumped in and joined them - at least in spirit. But I have not addressed the person of Narayana Swami or Gour Govinda Maharaja. I differ with a position and precisely because it cannot be supported by Srila Prabhupada's guidance to us. So it is not a case of WHO but WHAT is being differed over. The spiritual master is he to whom we direct this prayer: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth. Attachment to his lotus feet - is the perfection that fulfills all desire". I have stated - without any hesitation whatsoever - that this prayer is duly delivered daily by all of Srila Prabhupada's followers to his lotus feet. They drink in his guidance - in all its forms - which includes his committed men and women who have put his wish first and foremost in their lives to spread Krsna Consciousness to every town and village on the face of the earth. They authenticate their deliberate actions - with every single word he wrote or spoke. They encourage all to take full shelter of Srila Prabhupada as their guru and guide in all matters pertaining to their returning back to home - back to Godhead. They do so with full confidence that all one needs to accomplish his or her true mission in life - is most perfectly presented in Srila Prabhupada's books. They have no doubt that the science of Krsna Consciousness is easy and sublime and fully accessible to anyone by means of Srila Prabhupada's purports. They know that the process of devotional service necessarily includes the hearing of Krsna-katha - in the company of advanced devotees. They also know that this term "advanced" devotee is not nebulous but in fact highly "scientific" and fully illuminated by Srila Prabhupada himself and such association is indeed fully available to all of Srila Prabhupada's followers - from amongst his many very devoted servants who have done nothing but try their best to fulfill the mission of Srila Prabhupada and our Parampara. Loka Guru prabhu and Bhagavat Das were published - on this site - not too indirectly claiming that HH Narayana Swami is the real successor to Srila Prabhupada. Their claim is of course somewhat hidden within a lot of philosophy - but that is their claim in a nutshell. Rejecting their claim does not make me ignorant or arrogant. Their including statements made by HH Gaur Govinda Goswami - in an effort to substantiate their personal and subjective claim as to the value of the association of HH Narayana Swami and his position as the successor to Srila Prabhupada - did not make their case. In the quotes from HH Gaur Govinda Maharaja - he does not offer enough emphasis to the ready availability of Srila Prabhupada in his writings and the devotees who are sincerely repeating and living Srila Prabhupada teachings as he guided and guides us now - throughout the world. This omission of such conclusive encouragement by our Srila Prabhupada is lacking in his comments. Therefore I say it is deficient. Why he spoke that way I cannot say. I have nothing to say about him personally. I have no doubt of his being a pure soul and now most certainly with the Lord and Srila Prabhupada. That is NOT the subject of discussion. The issue is this: Scripture states that we must hear the Holy Name and the science of Krsna Consciousness - from Lord Krsna's authorized pure devotee. What arrangement did Srila Prabhupada make to fulfill this requirement? THAT is the issue. I claim with all authority from our Srila Prabhupada - that this "requirement" is completely fulfilled by hearing directly from Srila Prabhupada - in the company of his sincere servants anywhere in the world. When the devotees of Srila Prabhupada hear from him through his Bhaktivedanta Purports - and in the company of his duly initiated disciples and grand-disciples - and make all efforts to satisfy him by carefully following his instructions as well as making all attempts to likewise share this simple and authorized process of devotional service, they are in fact fully fulfilling this requirement. I would like to encourage you in your devotional service in any way possible. That you have expressed such dissatisfaction with what you perceive as the slighting of your choice of worshipable siksa is not necessarily bad. But my taking issue with anyone over this fine point in our Srila Prabhupada's teachings does not constitute an offense of any kind. Merely it is a disagreement. Obviously I do not have now the opportunity to discuss this issue with HH Gaur Govinda Goswami directly. I only have some recorded statements to go by. His comments appear to omit the proper emphasis on finding secure and capable Vaisnava association in the company of the simple servants of Srila Prabhupada placed by Srila Prabhupada throughout the globe working on his behalf. The implications of his comments are that exalted sadhus are indeed available - if you but have the eyes to see them. But he fails to guide anyone to the simple honest servants of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. At least from the quotes that were provided. So I am certain that in the essence - I would agree with his advice that one seek the association of advanced devotees. Where we might find ourselves in disagreement would be in precisely how that instruction is to be fulfilled. If your reaction to my comments is any indication - it would appear that you are convinced that your chosen siksa is one such rare soul and it would behoove myself and others to recognize and acknowledge this - "if we know what is good for us." In its essence this is non different from the mood of those who promote HH Narayana Swami as Srila Prabhupada's successor and is exactly what Srila Prabhupada did not invite into his mission; the party spirit that grows out of various groups of sentimental men and women who are convinced of the unverifiable claims to exclusive authority by this or that Acharya. This Srila Prabhupada said - we should avoid. Srila Prabhupada, when asked "WHO" would be his successor - answered "My success is already there." thus ensuring that the success of his mission was not dependent so much upon who did this or that or preached this or that - but upon "WHAT" we all did. "What" meant strictly following and leading by example. When you find that you take it. "One who is intelligent takes advantage of a good opportunity - the first time it comes" (SP SSR) With respect, Praghosa dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 In another article he insults SGGM and then says that Murali Krsna Swami is the one who misclculated his position by not understanding what he was objecting to. What Praghosh really objects to is the principle of disciplic succession outside of any one institution, and the accepting of any siksa guru outside of same. Every time I examine his writing I feel like playing the gbc national anthem in the background. Has not enough happened in iskcon since l977 to prove that without anugatya of a living sad guru things do not fare well? Institutional loyalty is not bhakti. VNN published articles back in l998 that addressed such fanatacism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 t without anugatya of a living sad guru things do not fare well? Institutional loyalty is not bhakti. That might be a nice catch phrase of the conceited, but it has no shastric basis and is 100% hogwash. There are many sad gurus in ISKCON. Many disciples of Srila Prabhupada can represent him a thousand times better than your so-called sad-guru. to say that there is no sad guru in ISKCON is to blaspheme many pure devotees. there is no hope for one with such a hellish mentality. Praghosa is sad guru. If you don know that then you are very unfortunate, very unfortunate and offensive to pure Vaishnavas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 EDITORIAL 09/19/1998 - 2250 The Mental Prison Of The Institution Editorial (VNN) - by Atulananda das Reply To Rasananda Swami Please excuse me for not having responded earlier to Rasananda Swami. I have only just received his letter. Rasananda Swami says that one has done wrong to leave ISKCON, that Srila Prabhupada's wish was that we all remain together in spite of all problems. With respect to this, I believe it is important to define what ISKCON is. To me, ISKCON is not the GBC. To me, ISKCON is the instruction and the example left my Srila Prabhupada. I am not a disciple of today's ISKCON, but of Prabhupada. ISKCON means the science of Krsna, sanatan dharma. It is an eternal and universal principal. ISKCON belongs not only to the disciples of Prabhupada but to all the pure devotees of Krsna, because, in truth, ISKCON is not an institution, it is a state of consciousness. Srila Prabhupada does not belong to an institution, he belongs to Krsna, to his guru and to the pure Vaisnavas. He does not belong to a little group of GBC neophytes that go to study with the karmis, and boast of their power, money and influence. It seems, Rasananda Swami, that you have forgotten the things that have taken place and that are now taking place. It is a great offense to Prabhupada to say that your ISKCON is Prabhupada. To me, it is the farthest thing from Prabhupada that exists. As Tripurari Maharaj nicely puts it, you are left with the body of Prabhupada, but not with his spirit. Rasananda Swami quotes a letter where Srila Prabhupada asks that his disciples not leave the ISKCON family. Of course, who would ever want to leave the beautiful family that Prabhupada left us? This is why we speak and also suffer, seeing how this family has been destroyed by a few MEGALOMANOS who believed that they were the proprietor of Gurudeva, his teachings, his temples and his disciples. As Paramadvaiti Maharaj has said: "They had to throw us out. We would have never left. They threw us out of ISKCON because we wanted to help it change." Prabhupad Bhaktisiddhanta also wished that in his absence the preaching would continue in an organized way among his disciples. Yet, some of them failed to do so and began to fight over the buildings. Prabhupada left them, as did Srila Sridhar Maharaj and many others who began their own preaching missions and continued serving their Guru. They did not feel the need to remain in the middle of politics and interrogations. They decided that the nectar should be distributed, and politics abandoned. When Prabhupada left, I saw, throughout the following seven years, his teachings and his example being misrepresented. There was much to tolerate to conserve this supposed union of leaders who didn't want to have anything to do with their servants and friends, and who threw them out on the streets for no reason. And what's worse is that one should not maintain the company of people who offend pure devotees, as this leads to ruin. Srila Prabhupada did not obligate anyone to follow him blindly, or the GBC, or anyone else. Many devotees worked for Srila Prabhupada directly. Many times, however, the GBC came across as an administrative group which had the power to control even Srila Prabhupada. The GBC never knew how to interpret the wishes of Srila Prabhupada. The GBC destroyed the service of the temple presidents. Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to assess and inspire the presidents, but instead they became manipulators and despots. Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to be elected by the temple presidents and that they remain in their position while the presidents elected the members. Prabhupada never obligated us to serve thieves, lazy men or unqualified persons. Srila Prabhupada says that a symptom of Kali yuga is the incapacity to recognize a person by their qualifications. In kaliyuga, people with superficial vision are taken away by titles and ecclesiastic positions and take a brahma-bhandu for a genuine brahmana. Rasananda Swami sites a letter from Srila Prabhupada that wasn't even signed by him. The letter is from 1974, but everyone knows that Srila Prabhupada, just before departing, asked forgiveness from his spiritual brothers for any offense that he might have committed, and he invited all of them to preach around the world. "The war is over" he said to Srila Puri Maharaj in 1977. I am more for the union that for disunion, Rasananda Swami. Srila Prabhupada writes in the Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.31 purport: "Among Vaisnavas there may be some differences of opinion due to everyone's personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna consciousness must go on. We can see that under the instruction of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja began preaching the Krsna consciousness movement in an organized way within the past hundred years. The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja ARE ALL GOD BROTHERS, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, EVERYONE OF US is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his own capacity and PRODUCING MANY DISCIPLES TO SPREAD IT ALL OVER THE WORLD. The cult of Krsna consciousness... will never be stopped. It will go on, WITHOUT DISTINCTION of caste, CREED, color or country. No one can check it." c. Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1976. Prabhu Srila Das also reminds us in his article "Don't suppress Sadhu Sanga:Prabhupada's last statements and actions on the subject, however, reversed the previous trend, and as such, should be taken as final: "The war is over." (spoken to Srila Puri Maharaja, 1977) "We want cooperation." (conversation to Jayapataka Swami about the BVS Charity Trust, 1977) His invitation to Srila Sridhara Maharaja to become president of ISKCON and reside at his projected new home in Mayapur, (1977) Prabhupada also recommended us to approach Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja for advice. (conversation 1977) Finally, his conveying to Srila Narayan Maharaja the request of forgiveness for any offenses he might have made to his god brothers. (conversation, Nov, 1977). "Gentlemen, the offering of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acaryadeva, we speak of something that is universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others." (ASBSP, Vyasa Puja Offering Feb. 1936)." All of this allows us to see that Srila Prabhupada was not a fanatic or sectarian person with his eyes on his institution alone. If we accept that he is Jagat Guru, we should recognize his universal love and that his instructions and love are not limited to the walls of temples that created during his physical presence in this world. Rasananda Swami also quotes another letter where Srila Prabhupada says that if one contemplates serving Krsna outside of ISKCON, it is a kind of hallucination. This is logical. If a devotee says to me that he wants to serve Krsna outside of his guru's mission, than he is under some type of hallucination. It is a fact that one needs devotees to serve Krsna, and so, at the time, ISKCON was the only thing there was and, besides, Srila Prabhupada was present on this planet. A disciple has the duty to serve his guru but not his spiritual brothers, much less so when they have become superficial and Vaisnava offenders. Rasananda Swami says that nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that one needs a higher authority to understand his books and that there is no need for a genuine diksa guru because Srila Prabhupada is the siksa. Any reader of Srila Prabhupada books knows that in many passages he states that the Srimad Bhagavatam should be read at the feet of a pure devotee. In addition, the siksa guru is a guide who should be present, an external representative of Krsna who guides us externally, directly, clearly and immediately. There is a difference between guru and shastra, when the guru leaves his body, his written works come to be sastra, and to understand them one needs guru. Rasananda Swami wants to eliminate the guru, which is nothing new in ISKCON. He wants to remove guru and remain with the problems. ISKCON, as has Rasananda Swami, has lost the vision of the importance of the Vaisnavas. Because of this, they are straying towards ritvik concepts and becoming aparadhis. Prabhupad Bhaktisiddhanta prevented many pseudo followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode from falling in the same way by thinking themselves capable of understanding his books without seeking out a pure devotee: "The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode. The Editor of this Journal, originally started by Thakur Bhaktivinode, has been trying to draw the attention of all followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode to this all-important point of his teachings. It is not necessary to try to place ourselves on a footing of equality with Thakur Bhaktivinode... "Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened to from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study..." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6 Rasananda Swami says that there are problems in all institutions. This is a fact. I do not look for institutions, nor do I shun problems, but I do look for pure devotees who can help me resolve them. Rasananda Swami represents the face of ISKCON quite well; without sentiment or respect for other Vaisnavas. He thinks that I take advantage of ISKCON's situation. This is not so. I feel obliged to present the truth, that is all. In ISKCON, any manifestation of affection towards other devotees is seen as sahajiya and in this way the institution based on love and trust that Srila Prabhupada created, has transformed into a monstrosity of laws, with a GBC who doesn't even know one another and who meet a few days a year to fix the lives of a series of strangers, for whom they have no real interest. Another thing, beloved devotees, maybe you will not like this very much, but I believe that you do not dare to think for yourselves and do not resort to common sense. Prabhupada did not expect such things from us. As a response to my letter I have only received a fanatic threat declaring that "Krsna is only in ISKCON." And that "There is only truth and purity in ISKCON." This is what Sridhar Maharaj called "the mental prison of the institution." But in the end, my friend, Rasananda Swami, this is a question of internal inspiration. Krsna directs our paths. My letter was designated to those who are looking for a way out, to those who feel suffocated in this structure called ISKCON, where one hears more about suffering that about happiness; more about norms and edicts than spiritual realizations. Atulanada das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 That might be a nice catch phrase of the conceited, but it has no shastric basis and is 100% hogwash. There are many sad gurus in ISKCON. Many disciples of Srila Prabhupada can represent him a thousand times better than your so-called sad-guru. to say that there is no sad guru in ISKCON is to blaspheme many pure devotees. there is no hope for one with such a hellish mentality. Praghosa is sad guru. If you don know that then you are very unfortunate, very unfortunate and offensive to pure Vaishnavas. everyone has an opinion . Vote with your feet. iskcon mangement rejected sadhu-sanga even in Srila Prabhupada's presence, let alone after his mah samadhi. Sectarian party feeling is not KC. II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu? According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger, thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga. Introduction Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 iskcon mangement rejected sadhu-sanga even in Srila Prabhupada's presence, let alone after his mah samadhi. To say that there is no sadhu in ISKCON is a most horrific nightmare offense. Because ISKCON devotees followed Srila Prabhupada instead of Narayana Maharaja you say there are NO sadhus in ISKCON. Puru, you have been eaten-up with hatred, malice and contempt and it is very unfortunate that you have written off ISKCON and all your Godbrothers to follow some poison doctrine of a misguided soul. Puru, this is madness. I am sorry that you are so far gone to speak this way about the many wonderful saints in ISKCON. Talk about politics? You have got more than your burden of poltical prejudices and it has rotted away the core of your heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 EDITORIAL 09/04/1998 - 2133 Srila Prabhupada Left The Cure To All Confusion Editorial (VNN) - by Atulananda das Dear brothers and sisters, I am only writing these words because of my love for you. My name is Atulananda das. I was initiated by Srila Prabhupada in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in 1973. I remained in ISKCON until 1984, at which time I had to leave; victim to the politics of my spiritual brothers, i.e. zonal gurus and GBC members. This was after having opened a temple in Argentina and five in Chile, my country, with the help of other spiritual brothers, whom, at the present time, due to so much abuse, are no longer active in their service. For seven years I had to tolerate the painful decadence of the mission created by my beloved Gurudeva. I was also witness to the pride of the GBC members and gurus, their abuses, politics and evident contradictions of siddhanta. They said that they they were the genuine representatives of Srila Prabhupada's movement and that they wanted to protect it. The truth is that I, together with many of my spiritual brothers, saw Srila Prabhupada being represented less and less everyday. At the time, I thought a lot about the fact that I had been initiated by a pure devotee of the Lord, by someone free of all desires for pratistha, kanaka and kamini. I was not initiated by a group of GBC's, or gurus whose behavior he would have never accepted. I also remembered two things in particular that Srila Prabhupada had told us. One was that when Gurudeva leaves, chaos comes. This, of course, became evident as soon as he left. The second was that we should go to Srila Sriddhar Maharaj if we had any problems. Everyday, this would run through my mind, and I felt the need to follow these words as if they were my only hope. It was the supersoul screaming in my heart: Don't forget the advice your Guru has left for you! "Forty blind men will all fall into the pond," Srila Prabhupada had once commented, "but if at least one can see it will be easy for him to save them." In this way, following the divine instructions of Gurudeva, I went to take refuge at the lotus feet of a true 'tattva-darsin,' his beloved spiritual brother, Srila Sriddhar Maharaj. Of course, as happened with many others, by doing this I became a demon and traitor of Prabhupada in the eyes of those who wanted to keep me under the dry and vast yolk of their speculations and political interests. Gurudeva said, "Go to him if there are any problems," but many thought, 'if I just keep following the instructions of my Guru without going to another one, then I will give greater pleasure to my Gurudeva.' In this way they speculated. Gurudeva asks for a glass of water but they think that it is better to bring him some milk (tainted by the venom of their anarthas). Have you seen that one of the laws in ISKCON is that no one can take refuge in a guru that is outside of their institution? If he is a Guru, than how can one not take refuge in him? This is the deviated doctrine of the 'eka-guru-vada,' rejected by Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta who considered it an offense to other Vaisnavas present who can illuminate us. Please read what Srila Prabhupada writes in the Srimad Bhagavatam about the 'maryada vyatikrama' offense; that of stepping over superior Vaisnavas. Prabhupada explains this offense in the conversations between Vidura and Maitreya. Do you really think that Srila Prabhupada brought us something so simple that we can continue to cultivating it on our own? What does Gurudeva mean when he speaks of chaos? If we are going to find the solutions to our problems among the purports of his books, why do we not read where it says that we can have unlimited siksa gurus and that we can only study the Srimad Bhagavatam at the feet of a self-realized soul? I do not really wish to elaborate too much here. After all, this is only one article among the hundreds in your archives. Yet, maybe, my simple realization and message might touch someone's heart. Please know, brothers and sisters, that I now look at this chaos from the outside. I watch as the wave uncovers day by day and how no one is able to keep quiet for long about their deep dissatisfactions. Yet the cause of this chaos in simple. It is the disobedience of the advice of our Guru or Paramaguru. In a letter by Srila Prabhupada he states: "I consider Sriddhar Maharaj my siksa guru, imagine the benefit you could have in his association." This is the advice given by Srila Prabhupada. Neverthe less, the GBC only went to Sriddhar Maharaj for formal consultation. They did not see him as a siksa guru. Rather, they considered him a threat to the the power that they wanted to boast: a power by which they scarred off many simple and genuine devotees whose only goal was to satisfy Prabhupada. I, myself, in 1981, went with a committee of devotees headed by Hridayananda Maharaj to visit Sriddhar Maharaj. At the time, I was part of Hridayananda Maharaj's Sanskrit team, which is why he had asked me to accompany him. Hridayananda Maharaj told me that Srila Prabhupada had said that the translations of the Srimad Bhagavatam should be reviewed by Sriddhar Maharaj. Thus, for the first time, I was able to see and witness this great Mahabhagavata as he helped us enrich the purports that Hridayananda Maharaj had written. But, of course, the visit turned out to be useless (so as not to say offensive) because the commentaries of our well-wisher ended up on the editing floor. This is only one example among thousands. Sriddhar Maharaj said it is the war of the three 'd's: diplomacy, dollars and despotism, in stead of devotion, dedication and divinity. ISCKON has become superficial, political and ritualistic. And now, once again, we are witness to the consequences of Vaisnava aparadha. Not long ago Aniruddha Prabhu wrote a beautiful letter to VNN. His advise, in general, is good and precise. He is sorry that ISKCON did not listen humbly to the siksa that Srila Prabhupada gave us. He says, however, that in spite of being very unsatisfied with his diksa, he has not wanted to reinitiate so as to show his loyalty to ISKCON. This is a common way of thinking for many. But this way of thinking is not going to make Srila Prabhupada happy. Do you think he wanted to create a society of frustrated and unsatisfied brahmanas that had no faith in their gurus? A society without trustworthy leaders, where the participants live among political manouvers of untrustworty leaders and gurus? I consider this to be an insult to Srila Prabhupada. If ISKCON is no longer in the Vaisnava siddhanta, if there are only kanishtha adhikaris in ISKCON that do not appreciate other Vaisnavas, I assure you that Srila Prabhupada would be the first one to get out of ISKCON which so many only muse over doing today. Did my Gurudeva come to establish buildings of siddhanta? Did my Gurudeva come to accept an institution like this one where the guru is not trusted or respected? Would he be a part of an institution where hypocrisy reins? On the other hand, was my Gurudeva someone who did not love any of his spiritual brothers? I do not believe this story. When I took refuge in Sriddhar Maharaj and read his wise and nectarian instructions, I felt more appreciation for Srila Prabhupada. I thought, 'Prabhupada is a genius. He did not only show me the Supreme Lord but also His devotee.' Since Prabhupada was a pure devotee, he could recognize another pure devotee others were not able to recognize. (Neither did I recognize this, but by following the advise of Prabhupada I was eternally benefited.) My dear brothers and sisters, at this time of confusion I recommend that you take refuge in the Vaisnavas who are truly more advanced than we. This is the advise of Srila Prabhupada. I have also read various letters by the ritviks, but they too are falling in the same grave error as the authorities of ISKCON. They do not respect other elder Vaisnavas and do not ask for their advise with humility. They can not be happy because they do not have anyone they can trust. They say that the necessity of a living guru is a speculation. Yet, to live without guru and without sadhu sanga is a definate curse. As Srila Sriddhar Maharaj explains, to live without a guru means that whatever you look upon you can not trust. While they say that there is no one like Srila Prabhupada, I say it is an offense to compare elder Vaisnavas; that whichever Vaisnava is superior to us will be a great help to us. In the same way that we have to always separate ourselves from Maya and accept Krsna, so we must always leave asad-sanga and accept sad-sanga, sadhu-sanga. Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta said that true sadhu-sanga is to associate with an elder devotee. The proposal of the ritviks is unnatural, apasiddhanta, and bogus. We should pray to Krsna that he bless us with His eternal presence in the form of Gurudeva, just as Prabhupada taught us. Besides, Prabhupada wanted us to form a society of brahmanas, that is to say, of gurus: of saviors. If we have to accept that none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples can become a guru, this means that his mission was a failure. I certainly don't believe this to be true. In the same way, to think that Srila Prabhupada was the only genuine disciple of Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta is an aberration and very offensive to the mission of our paramaguru and our spiritual uncles, as well as something that our Prabhupada would have never tolerated hearing. Before Srila Prabhupada left, he asked his spiritual brothers to preach throughout the world. Do you think he did this as an act of diplomacy? Only a diplomat could see it that way. Today the supposed followers of Srila Prabhupada close their doors to these brothers of our guru. Srila Prabhupada brought us something practical and alive; not something dead or stagnant. It is not that there are no longer any Vaisnavas in the in the world. Prabhupada wanted his disciples to continue with the preaching and to become responsible spiritual leaders. Sriddhar Maharaj said that a small capitalist needs the support of a great capitalist. In this way, an inferior Vaisnava, taking refuge in a superior Vaisnava can begin a relief mission. This was the idea for ISKCON but the gurus began to believe that there was no one above them. Thus, the small capitalists thought themselves to be great and now they are broke. I repeat, Srila Prabhupada's instruction was so clear, and those who did not follow it are now having problems. It seems absurd to me that the "faithful followers" of Prabhupada are the ones with problems! A devotee who does not accept other Vaisnavas is a kanistha. The leaders of ISKCON want to force Krsna to appear in their institution and subject Prabhupada to chair in their malevolent meetings. It is as absurd as thinking that Jesus Christ only walks in the gardens of the Vatican. Brothers and sisters. I ask you to be true brahmanas and to reject the religion of terror. Brahmana means broad-minded, said Prabhupada. And Sriddhar Maharaj said that Krsna's movements are not foreseeable: they are not square. He moves in a zigzag way and you should know how to follow Him and recognize His grace wherever it manifests. O Vaisnavas! Now we also have the World Vaisnava Association so that you can know about other Vaisnavas and that the world does not begin and end in your ISKCON. Do not fear, Prabhupada will not become angry with you if you leave to look for the truth and search for purity at the feet of superior Vaisnavas. In 1984 I returned to Chile to rekindle the preaching we had begun in 1977 (that was later destroyed by the politics of my 'guardians'). This time, the preaching was reinitiated under the united inspiration of Srila Prabhupada and Sriddhar Maharaj, as well as my spiritual brother Paramadvaiti Swami. Today, we have ten temples in Chile, two agricultural communities and five sannyasis, all of whom are preaching in a homonious and beautiful way. Colombia is another success with more than twenty temples, seven sannyasis, agricultural communities, and so on. I believe the contribution of Paramadvaiti Swami and other spiritual brothers is definitely a concrete offering to the mission of our Srila Prabhupada, in addition to the many other projects in South America, Europe and India that I have not mentioned here. Tripurari Maharaj, Nrsimha Maharaj, Siddhasvarupananda Prabhu, and many others who followed Srila Prabhupada's instructions are now preaching and opening temples (while ISKCON closes theirs) giving true relief to all who approach. This is a clear demonstration that Srila Sriddhar Maharaj greatly inspired us to serve Srila Prabhupada. Today, hundreds of devotees are being inspired to do the same under Srila Narayan Maharaj and other Vaisnavas. By the grace of the Vaisnavas I have also visited other countries like Argentina, Peru and Bolivia, trying to fulfill Prabhupada's desire that his disciples be responsible, and that they preach this beautiful cause in a broad manner. This is my service to Srila Prabhupada, this is my offering to my Gurudeva, and of course, more temples will need to be opened in the future. Before, however, when I was in what you call ISKCON, I could hardly even give one class a week, and I lived in a boiler of envy and politics. The 23rd of September will be the Vyasapuja of Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj who will be turning 101 years old. He is doing the tapasya of remaining on this Earth and blessing all the Vaisnavas that visit him in Jagannath Puri with his prema. Formerlly, he was in charge of Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta publications and was the headman of his Brhad-mridanga. He published hundreds of articles and installed more than eighty deities of Sri Sri Gouranga and Radha Krsna. Recently he has published The Heart of Krsna where he advises us against Vaisnava aparadha. He is also the founder and president of the World Vaisnava Association. Sri Bhaktivaibhav Puri Maharaj, at his advanced age, is travelling to the occident to preach, as is Narayan Maharaj, both of whom have Srila Prabhupada in their hearts. Oh surrendered souls! How can you think that Sri Krsna is going to leave you without the comforting of His pure devotees? Without Vaisnava sanga it is impossible to overcome the perplexities of Maya. We need guru and sadhu, even more than sastra. In ancient times books did not even exist. One should look for the self-realized sage, without whom access to the sastra would be impossible. The pure message of Srila Prabhupada can not be understood without approaching a more advanced soul. There is something very mystical about this, but Sri Krsna does not reveal himself to those who do not crave the company of His devotees. "In Krsnaloka," said Srila Sriddhar Maharaj, "we will be in the land of gurus. There," he says, "it will not be necessary to have a head, only hands will be necessary. There, we will have to walk on our heads." Srila Prabhupada did not want to leave us in a vast world - Christian style - with only one savior and all the rest condemned. He showed many gurus to us, the entire parampara, and in this way he left us a great family that we can take refuge in. In the same way Prabhupada left sixty-four temples in India and many inspired disciples with is saintly example. All Glories to the Gaudiya Math! The triumphant movement initiated by our param guru, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta, the lion among the givers of refuge! You should leave the "mental prison" that the institution has created to safeguard itself from its terrible mistakes. With good common sense and an objective and ample mentality, you should search for this truth that Srila Prabhupada brought us to make us surrendered, loving, happy and free devotees. By addressing this letter to you, I have not wanted to hurt or offend anyone in this moment of confusion. I have only wanted to remember the effulgent instruction that Srila Prabhupada left us. I fall at the feet of all the Vaisnavas who have come under the universal and loving banner of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Vaisnavanudasanudas, Atulananda das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 The pure message of Srila Prabhupada can not be understood without approaching a more advanced soul. Vaisnavanudasanudas, Atulananda das Atulananda has also been polluted with the madness of wholesale aparadha against hundreds of saintly sadhus in ISKCON. this is what connecting with Narayana Maharaja will do. It will destroy your love and respect for all the hundreds and thousands of sincere devotees that are trying hard against sever odds to keep ISKCON alive in the wake of Srila Prabhupada's passing. Be happy with your hateful, bigoted prejudice outlook. But when you Narayana Maharaja is dead and gone, then you all will have nothing and start to understand what the disciples of Srila Prabhupada have been trying to deal with for the last 30 years. What does this Atulananda know? I would take the sanga and siksha of dozens and dozens if ISKCON devotees before I would give my soul over to the likes of Narayana Maharaja. ISKCON devotee just say no, we don't accept Narayana Maharaja. The followers of Narayana Maharaja espouse the most vile and bitter hate and malice that has ever been known in the Vaishnava world. Madness.......................... the madness camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 That might be a nice catch phrase of the conceited, but it has no shastric basis and is 100% hogwash. There are many sad gurus in ISKCON. Many disciples of Srila Prabhupada can represent him a thousand times better than your so-called sad-guru. to say that there is no sad guru in ISKCON is to blaspheme many pure devotees. there is no hope for one with such a hellish mentality. Praghosa is sad guru. If you don know that then you are very unfortunate, very unfortunate and offensive to pure Vaishnavas. A friend of mine from Alachua wanted to post but is too hyperactive to concentrate. I just got off the phone with him. He wants to know if by sad guru, ya'll mean either a sorrowful guru or a sat guru on the platform of eternal, blissfull knowledge? His first guru was a sorry asana guru and then his local GBC forced him to get initiated by a very sad case guru. Anyway it was a very sad story so enough said:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 A friend of mine from Alachua wanted to post but is too hyperactive to concentrate. I just got off the phone with him. He wants to know if by sad guru, ya'll mean either a sorrowful guru or a sat guru on the platform of eternal, blissfull knowledge? His first guru was a sorry asana guru and then his local GBC forced him to get initiated by a very sad case guru. Anyway it was a very sad story so enough said:) When you become a true saint and learn forgiveness and humility you will be able to understand that these "sad gurus" of ISKCON are gurus every bit as much as Narayana Maharaja and even more than that. Because Narayana Maharaja and his followers do not know what is foregiveness and humilty they want to hold some little defect in a Vaishnava up as some license to hate and offend him. This doctrine of non-forgiveness, non-humilty and non-compassion is a foolish ignorant mentality. If we can't forgive and excuse a Vaishnava for his shortcomings it is only because we are demons ourselves. ISKCON gurus are never going to meet the approval of bigots and demons. There is no reason to care if they do or not. The dogs are barking, yet the caravan passes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 The smile symbol by a post will often mean that the post is done in light hearted jest. So the post wasn't meant to offend...sorry if it did. In many ways you are correct. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that, "we are faith makers, not faith breakers" and I accept that. Great advice to all aspiring devotees. So if you have a guru that you honestly have faith in, then go forward, chant Hare Krsna and be happy:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Srila Prabhupada Recommends Direct Sanga With Pure Vaishnavas BY MADAN MOHAN DASA EDITORIAL September 18, 1999 VNN4751 — Srila Prabhupada instructs us unequivocally: ...The neophyte devotee must be protected by being surrounded by pure devotees...A so-called mature devotee, however, commits a great offense by giving up the company of pure devotees...By one's mental concoctions one falls down. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.157, purport) "Since one cannot visually experience the presence of the Supersoul, He appears before us as a liberated devotee. Such a spiritual master is none other than Krsna Himself." Purport It is not possible for a conditioned soul to directly meet Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but if one becomes a sincere devotee and seriously engages in devotional service, Lord Krsna sends an instructing spiritual master to show him favor and invoke his dormant propensity for serving the Supreme. The preceptor appears before the external senses of the fortunate conditioned soul, and at the same time the devotee is guided from within by the caittya-guru, Krsna, who is seated as the spiritual master within the heart of the living entity. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.58) It is indicated that to learn the transcendental science, it is imperative that one avoid the company of undesirable persons and always seek the company of saints and sages who are able to impart lessons of transcendental knowledge. The potent words of such realized souls penetrate the heart, thereby eradicating all misgivings accumulated by years of undesirable association. For a neophyte devotee there are two kinds of persons whose association is undesirable: (1) gross materialists who constantly engage in sense gratification and: (2) unbelievers who do not serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead but serve their senses and mental whims in terms of their speculative habits. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.59, purport) The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor...The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.35, purport) A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood, similarly without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service. ...The bonafide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticise a real acarya. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 1.46, purport) While the bhakti-lata creeper is growing, the devotee must protect it by fencing it all around. The neophyte devotee must be protected by being surrounded by pure devotees...A so-called mature devotee, however, commits a great offense by giving up the company of pure devotees...By one's mental concoctions one falls down. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.157, purport) The criterion is that a devotee must know what Krsna wants him to do. This can be achieved through the medium of the spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Krsna...Without accepting a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, one cannot find out the real purpose of devotional service. Therefore one has to accept the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and agree to be directed by him. (Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta Madhya-lila 19.167, purport) An uttama-adhikari is not interested in blaspheming others, his heart is completely clean, and he has attained the realized state of unalloyed Krishna consciousness. ...One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well towards the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. (Nectar of Instruction Text Five, purport) Both the untenable policy of banning association with pure Vaishnavas and the sastrically unsupported "no living link is necessary" assertion of "ritvik" philosophy are exposed and comprehensively dismissed as disobedient speculation in the above crystal-clear instructions given by Srila Prabhupada in his perfect translations of Gaudiya Vedanta sastra and his fully authoritative purports. Maintaining the integrity of true Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta and maintaining the proper standard of Vaishnava sadacara on behalf of all our previous acaryas, while actually developing our love for Hari, Sri Guru and Vaishnavas constitutes our prime duty in serving the mission of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. The primary purpose of Srila Prabhupada's Iskcon is to provide unqualified persons with abundant opportunities to acquire sukrti (spiritual merit) by performing devotional services as prescribed throughout all his books, through the excellent facilities he provided. The ultimate fruit of sukrti is to be permitted entry into the sanga of pure Vaishnavas, whose direct personal sanga, instructions and mercy are the exclusive means by which entry into Sri Krishna's eternal abode is made possible, as conclusively confirmed through the infallible authority of guru, sadhu, sastra. Srila Prabhupada's books alone - if they constitute our only accepted authority - consistently reaffirm this simple, irrefutable truth. By sincere prayers and submission to Sri Krishna as caittya-guru in our hearts, He cannot but appear before us in the form of Sri Guru, the pure, uttama-adhikari Vaishnavas who will act as our siksa gurus and even as our diksa gurus to give us shelter and mercy in the form of their direct personal instructions to each of us individually, according to our acquired natures. To me, to avoid such direct sanga or not to be seeking out such sanga following the direct orders of Srila Prabhupada would indicate either: a) we have not read Srila Prabhupada's books, b) we have read but not understood Srila Prabhupada's instructions, c) we have read and understood Srila Prabhupada's teachings but have maintained a defiant mood of self-interest and non-surrender towards Sri Krishna (as opposed to a submissive mood of guru-seva for the pleasure of Sri Sri Radha-Govindaji), or d) we have not prayed sincerely to Sri Krishna in the form of caittya-guru to mercifully guide us to His divine lotus feet by appearing directly before our external senses in the form of Sri Guru. Please correct me if I have expressed any misunderstandings of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and feel free to contact me at any time, with sastric validation from Srila Prabhupada's books to support opposing viewpoints. Thank you. Your servant aspiring for the service of Sri Guru & Gauranga, Madan Mohan dasa. Please send any comments or responses to 106650.1421@compuserve.com Gaura Premanande! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Srila Prabhupada Recommends Direct Sanga With Pure Vaishnavas and as usuall, you are implying that there is no sadhu sanga in the disciples of Srila Prabhupada and that Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet. Nobody argues the point you made with that litany of quotes from Srila Prabhupada. Who ever argues against that? The debate is about who and what is a sadhu. You people keep trying to tell the whole Vaishnava world that Narayana Maharaja is the only sadhu sanga on the planet. We keep trying to inform you that there are many saintly sadhus in ISKCON and Narayana Maharaja has no monopoly on that. Yes, it is unanimous, sadhu sanga is indespensible. The are many great pure devotees in ISKCON and ISKCON is not dependent on the siksha of Narayan Maharaja for it's sustenance. You guys keep denying that Narayana Maharaja wants anything to do with ISKCON, yet you keep up this relentless campaign to tell ISKCON that without Narayana Maharaha they are all spiritually dead. It's amazing how carried away you people are with all this craziness. It's like some hypnotist has made zombies out of all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Conversation with Srila Prabhupada May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.” Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…” Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sri Guru and His Grace Chapter Three Descent of the Revealed Truth Krsna consciousness, the spiritual conception of the highest level, descends by flowing down from one level to the next, just as from the peak of a mountain, the Ganges flows in a zigzag way, from one peak to another. Sometimes the water of the Ganges mixes with the current of the river Saraswati. That water is not to be considered Ganges water. When the water of the Saraswati joins the current of the Ganges, it is considered to be Ganges water. When the two rivers meet, the water that flows away from the Ganges is not the Ganges; but when the Saraswati's waters enter into the current of the Ganges, it becomes the Ganges. That water will purify us, whatever its point of origin may have been. There is a saying that whatever water is deep within the current of the Ganges riverbed, is the real Ganges water. That water will purify us, whatever its point of origin may have been. The purifying potency of the water has nothing to do with the water we can feel and see. What can we see with our physical eyes? The current of the Ganges is pure. When the spirit and sanction is there, it is a living thing, and can purify everyone. Dead Mantras So, the very gist of the guru parampara, the disciplic succession, is siksa, the spiritual teaching, and wherever it is to be traced, there is guru. One who has the transcendental eye, the divine eye, will recognize the guru wherever he appears. One who possesses knowledge of absolute divine love in purity--he is guru. Otherwise the guru parampara is only a body parampara: a succession of bodies. Then the caste brahmanas, the caste goswamis, will continue with their trade, because body after body, they are getting the mantra. But their mantra is dead. We are after a living mantra, and wherever we can trace the living tendency for a higher type of devotional service, we shall find that there is our guru. One who has that sort of vision awakened will be able to recognize the guru wherever he may appear. Initiation into the mantra means to impart real knowledge and devotional sentiment from one to another. And that must be genuine. Nothing can be known about a homeopathic globule by an outer physical inspection, but the potency is within. So also within the mantra the important thing is the type of thought or sentiment which is imparted through that sound. The impersonalists have got the same mantra, and are also chanting, the holv name of Krsna, but that sort of name will vanish in the brahmajyoti. They won't be able to cross the Viraja, the river between the material and spiritual world. When the mayavadi chants the name of Krsna, Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that his chanting of the name of Krsna is just like thunder to the holy body of Krsna. It does not produce any soothing effect. The Gaudiya Math deals with reality, not with the frame. We are trying to understand what is what in the spiritual thought-world. We are not enchanted or captured by the mere form. We are interested in the step by step development in spiritual thought. In his Upadesamrta (10), Srila Rupa Goswami has said, karmibhyah parito hareh priyataya vyaktim yayur jnaninas, tebhyo jnanavimukta bhakti-paramah premaika nisthas tatah. "Out of many materialists one may be a philosopher. Out of many philosophers, one may become liberated and take to devotional service. Out of many devotees, one may attain pure love of Krsna. He is the best of all." We are interested in understanding this gradation: what is the Viraja river, what is the spiritual sky, the planet of Lord Siva, the Vaikuntha world of Visnu, Lord Rama's Ayodhya, and then Krsna in Dwaraka, Mathura, and Vrndavana? We want to know the realistic view of the whole gradation of devotional thought. Krsna shows this gradation in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.14.15) where he says: na tatha me priyatama atma-yonir na sankarah na ca sankarsano na srir naivatma ca yatha bhavan "Neither Brahma, nor Siva, nor Sankarsana of Vaikuntha, nor the goddess of fortune Laksmidevi, nor even my own self is as dear to me as you. You are my favorite, Uddhava." We have to follow the spirit; otherwise after Jahnava devi, the wife of Lord Nityananda, up to Vipina Goswami, from whom Bhaktivinoda Thakura took initiation, there are so many unknown lady gurus. Through them, the mantra came to Vipina Goswami, and from him Bhaktivinoda Thakura received the mantra. We accept Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but should we count all those ladies in our disciplic succession? What was their realization? Slaves of the Truth We are slaves of the truth. We are beggars for the pure current of truth that is constantly flowing: the fresh current. We are not charmed by any formality. I will bow down my head wherever I find the river of nectar coming down to me. When one is conscious that the Absolute Truth is descending to him from the highest domain, he will think, "I must surrender myself here." Mahaprabhu says to Ramananda Raya, kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya, yei krsna-tattva vetta sei guru haya. "Wherever the truth appears, wherever the nectar of divine ecstasy descends, I shall offer myself as a slave. That is my direct concern." Whatever form it takes doesn't matter much; the form has some value, but if there is any conflict, the inner spirit of a thing should be given immense value over its external cover. Otherwise, if the spirit has gone away, and the bodily connection gets the upper hand, our so-called spiritual life becomes sahajiya, a cheap imitation. When we are conscious of the real substance of Krsna consciousness, the real wealth we are receiving from our spiritual master, then our spiritual life cannot be sahajiyaism, imitationism. We must be aware enough to detect our guru's advice when we find it in another. One who is awake will see, "Here is my guru's advice, I find it here in this man. Somehow or other, it has come here. How, I do not know, but I see my guru's characteristics, his dealings, and behavior in this person." When we are able to recognize a thing for its intrinsic value, then, wherever we find it, we cannot neglect it. There is an example of this in an instance regarding Aurobindo Ghosh, of Pondicherry. He was the first leader of the Anarchist Party and practically the founder of the revolutionary movement in Bengal. In 1928, a case against him was proceeding in Calcutta High Court. A famous attorney, Mr. Norton, was in charge of the prosecution. Aurobindo had absconded, and when the case was going on, he was not to be found anywhere. Norton was concerned. How to find him? Aurobindo's English was very good English. He had been educated in England from childhood, and could speak English even better than many Englishmen. Norton began to search through different papers and magazines for Aurobindo's writing. Finally, he found Aurobindo's style of writing in the Amrita Bazaar Patrika, a Bengali newspaper. "Here is Mr. Ghosh!" he said. The editor of the Amrita Bazaar Patrika was summoned to court to find out whether Aurobindo Ghosh had written the article. Norton examined him: "This is your paper. You must know who has written this article. You are the editor." "Yes, I know." "Do you know this man, Aurobindo Ghosh?" "Yes, I know him. I consider him to be one of the greatest men in the world." "As the editor of this newspaper do you know who wrote this article?" "Yes, I know." "Has Mr. Ghosh written this article?I won't say." Norton asked him, "Do you know what is the punishment?" "Yes. Six months imprisonment.You are ready for that?" "Yes, I am ready for that." Holding up the newspaper article, Norton said, "Here is Mr. Ghosh! I rest my case." He saw Aurobindo in his writing, and in a similar way we must see, "Here is my gurudeva !" Our spiritual master would also sometimes say of one of his disciples who had departed, "Bhaktivinoda Thakura came to me, but l could not recognize him." Those whose divine vision is awakened are always seeing signs of divinity everywhere . One Krsna in Many Gurus We must have the vision to recognize the presence of our guru's temperament. Mahaprabhu says madhavendra purira sambandha dhara jani. When Mahaprabhu met the Sanodiya brahmana, upon seeing his movements, he at once detected that this brahmana must have some connection with Madhavendra Puri. He said, "Without his connection, I could never find such symptoms of transcendental ecstasy. It must come from Madhavendra Puri." So, we must know Krsna consciousness in truth. It is said acaryam mam vijaniyan, the spiritual master is not to be differentiated. One thing is coming down from the Supreme Lord, so the oneness of continuity is not to be ignored. Guru can be here; guru can be in another bodv also. The same teacher may come in a different body to inspire us; he may come to give us new hope and higher education. The substance should always be given a higher value than the form. First understand the degree of purity in Krsna consciousness. The followers of form are only imitationists; they want only to exploit Mahaprabhu and not to serve him. They are our worst enemies. They are traitors; they have taken the garb of Mahaprabhu's sampradaya, and they are saying something bogus. This is cheap marketing; they are extensively selling adulterated things very cheaply. They have no inner necessity to attain the purest thing (pujala ragapatha gaurava-bhange ). Although he was such an exalted Vaisnava, our guru maharaja never presented himself as a great devotee. He always used to say, ''I am a servant of the servant of the Vaisnavas. That was his claim. And he would say, "The higher devotees are my guru, they are so exalted." First come and practice all these things, and then you can hope to reach the goal. It is not so easy, or so cheap.Out of many liberated persons, a pure devotee of Lord Krsna is extremely rare." (koti-mukta-madhye 'durlabha' eka krsna-bhakta ). Krsna consciousness is an internal thing, and those who cannot see the internal truth will make much of the external cover. We do not support that. Rather we are interested in the real spirit. All the opposing elements who are interested in externals cannot touch us. Dogs may bark, but the barking of a dog has no importance. Because they make so much of the outer thing, they have no real purification of the heart to accept the pure thing, to discriminate what is purity, or what is love of Godhead, prema, after which even Brahma and Mahadeva aspire. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Because ISKCON devotees followed Srila Prabhupada instead of Narayana Maharaja you say there are NO sadhus in ISKCON. Sridhar Maharaja said about the GBC in 1981 that "they are defending the Prabhupada of their imagination". For many years now the GBC has officially accepted Sridhar Maharaja. Are you sure that the ISKCON devotees you are speaking of are not following an imaginary Srila Prabhupada? And that maybe that is the problem? The ISKCON devotees that give so many different interpretations of Prabhupada within their own institution that it sounds like a modern day Tower of Babel are following who? I still attend ISKCON events and festivals, I'm not a black and white person, I can see that there are advance devotees in ISKCON like Radhanatha Maharaja who are somehow above the frey. But I know for a fact that Radhanatha Maharaja has had the association of Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja and for that and other reasons he is in a better position than others. It is a sympton of kannistha adhikari that one sees his guru as the only guru. I'm sure that some of Srila Narayana Maharaja's followers also fit that category. But that is certainly not the realization of Narayana Maharaja himself or many of his more experienced followers. I know, I know he says he's Prabhupada's successor, but you'll have to understand the concept of acarya abhimana, how the guru can take the ego of emperor sanyasi and still be the most humble devotee. Srila Prabhupada did the same thing as do all acarya's. The problem is that Srila Prabhupada personally asked Narayana Maharaja to help his followers several times immediatley before he left the planet. He is being blocked from helping the official ISKCON by certain influential GBC leaders for nothing more than political reasons. But still somehow there are sadhus in ISKCON. Sridhar Maharaja said, "It doesn't matter who's right it matters whose sincere". He defined sincerity as "appreciation of the truth". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sridhar Maharaja said about the GBC in 1981 that "they are defending the Prabhupada of their imagination". For many years now the GBC has officially accepted Sridhar Maharaja. Are you sure that the ISKCON devotees you are speaking of are not following an imaginary Srila Prabhupada? And that maybe that is the problem? /QUOTE] I certainly hope you don't imagine the Sridhar Maharaja would ever have encouraged ISKCON leaders to accept Narayan Maharaja as the successor to Srila Prabhupada, because from what I think I know about, Sridhar Maharaja would NOT have encouraged that at all. You can tell by his mood and his preaching that if ISKCON would have allowed Narayana Maharaja a foot in the door that he would have tried to take over the whole show and subjugate all the leading devotees to follow him. If Narayana Maharaja had been very humble and respectful to ISKCON leaders, then maybe they would have allowed him to come to temples and preach. But, he was like a lion roaring proclaiming himself king of the jungle and the ISKCON leaders could see that and knew they couldn't allow him to participate in internal ISKCON preaching. Sridhar Maharaja accepted the ISKCON guru system and gave them some good advice on how to make it work. I don't think you can take a statement by Sridhar Maharaja about them following the Prabhupada of their imagination and just turn that into a blanket condemnation of all the senior ISKCON devotees. One thing for sure, Sridhar Maharaja never instructed ISKCON leaders to appoint Narayana Maharaja as ISKCON's official siksha guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 You can tell by his mood and his preaching that if ISKCON would have allowed Narayana Maharaja a foot in the door that he would have tried to take over the whole show and subjugate all the leading devotees to follow him. If Narayana Maharaja had been very humble and respectful to ISKCON leaders, then maybe they would have allowed him to come to temples and preach. But, he was like a lion roaring proclaiming himself king of the jungle and the ISKCON leaders could see that and knew they couldn't allow him to participate in internal ISKCON preaching. Many leading ISKCON devotees were going to Narayana Maharaja for siksa in the early 90s. One GBC man told that the real reason they split with Narayana Maharaja was that they were afraid that Tamal Krsna Goswami would use what he was learning to try to become the head acarya of ISKCON as he had previously done in 1980. For 55 or so years Narayana Maharaja was a member of his guru maharaja's institution, the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Two years ago there were some politics and simply left that institution. He could have salvaged some math properties for his own, but he wanted no part of the politics and fighting and just walked away from the situation. Lion guru, that is a bad thing? Narayana Maharaja was supposed to submit himself to men who were small children when he took sannyasa? Sridhar Maharaja accepted the ISKCON guru system and gave them some good advice on how to make it work. I don't think you can take a statement by Sridhar Maharaja about them following the Prabhupada of their imagination and just turn that into a blanket condemnation of all the senior ISKCON devotees. One thing for sure, Sridhar Maharaja never instructed ISKCON leaders to appoint Narayana Maharaja as ISKCON's official siksha guru. Later in 1982 Sridhar Maharaja said, "I am a simple man, they came to me and told, "Swami Maharaja appointed us" [guru], so I accepted. But now I can see by their behaviour that they were not appointed, it is not possible." If that is true where does the GBC derive its authority to appoint gurus? Also siksa is informal therefore there is no question of appointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Be happy with your hateful, bigoted prejudice outlook. You can argue against ideas and siddhantas that you think are incorrect. But don't make personal attacks on other devotees, no matter what camp they are in. That your apparent opponents may do this is no excuse. It will become Vaisnava aparadha and your heart will become very hard. Be careful, remember when we point fingers, three fingers are pointing back at us. So this is the "trade secret", when we personally criticize others, then we will gradually become what we are criticizing. Of course I am also trying to remind myself. Maybe this is not always bad, just as when Saul became Paul in the New Testament. The Lord truly works in mysterious ways. Anyway we should all be careful. We are supposed to be discussing spiritual topics, this is not a political forum. Anyone who chants the names of Gaur Nitai must be respected, even if there is some defect in their character. We should not be sectarean, we should respect devotees in all camps and try to see their sincerity. But that doesn't mean that we should just go on hearing or reading Vaisnava aparadha for it is our duty to protect our own devotional creepers. Sometimes we have to speak up, or go away, or jump in the river or ocean with our clothes on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Later in 1982 Sridhar Maharaja said, "I am a simple man, they came to me and told, "Swami Maharaja appointed us" [guru], so I accepted. But now I can see by their behaviour that they were not appointed, it is not possible." . Then what do you suppose was Sridhar Maharaja's understanding of how the disciplic succession in ISKCON was to continue if indeed Srila Prabhupada never appointed any gurus? Was the parampara supposed to end there? Or, was there some concept of how it should continue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Then what do you suppose was Sridhar Maharaja's understanding of how the disciplic succession in ISKCON was to continue if indeed Srila Prabhupada never appointed any gurus? Was the parampara supposed to end there? Or, was there some concept of how it should continue? Sridhar Maharaja would give the example that sometimes the Ganges is thin, and sometimes very wide but in each case it is the Ganges. So the disciplic succession would go on, but perhaps in a zig zag way. There may be gurus in Prabhuapada's disciplic line but there is not need of rubber stamping. It would be based on the faith of the disciples. He would also tell that when there is higher quality seed available one should take that instead of lower quality seed. Generally he emphasized siksa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Sridhar Maharaja would give the example that sometimes the Ganges is thin, and sometimes very wide but in each case it is the Ganges. So the disciplic succession would go on, but perhaps in a zig zag way. There may be gurus in Prabhuapada's disciplic line but there is not need of rubber stamping. It would be based on the faith of the disciples. He would also tell that when there is higher quality seed available one should take that instead of lower quality seed. Generally he emphasized siksa. Of course there will always be disagreement about who is giving the higher seed, so the whole concept is rather subjectve. Planting of the seed is natural, not formal. Once a devotee plants the seed in another soul, it's a little late to remove that seed and plant a better one. When devotees start to recognize where and how the mercy of Mahaprabhu has come to them, then they must offer their respect there instead of living in denial and trying to find a guru that satisfies their false ego and false pride. Respect the Vaishnava that brought you into Vaishnavism and recognize who the diksha guru is instead of shopping around for a guru that caters to our false pride and false prestige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 I am certain that Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj understood guru-tattva in exactly the the same way that His Divine Grace and all of the genuine disciples of SBSST undertsood it. I was told that when the gbc men went to him to inform him that they had been appointed by HDG that his responce was, "I don't think Swami Maharaja would have done that." While he appeared initially to give them the benefit of the doubt for the sake of seeing his godbrother's mission continue unimpeded, he was never fooled by their presumptive assumptions about their so called qualification to assume the role of guru. If they had actually been listening to Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja carefully in the discussions found In Sri Guru and His Grace, instead of just trying to get him to rubber stamp their management decisions, they might have gleaned a better understanding of guru tattva then they appear to have come away with. Genuine acarya is self effulgent. Gour Kesava Prabhu explains how the iskcon management controls sannyasa and guru apointments on the thread, Sannyasa and Iskcon : Vox Populi or sound principles of Vaisnava philosophy? that no one has posted any responce to. Likely the gbc will again ignore his reccomendations. Gaura Kesava Prabhu also wrote a perceptive paper about re initiation called Sri Guru Ashraya back in l987. Bhakti Caru Swami never distributed it to the other gbc members . It would have forced a deeper and clearer understanding of what initiation actually means, that the gbc was then and still is unwilling to consider. Even though his paper was commissioned by the gbc itself, because the answers he gave to the five questions they asked did not suit their political framework for control they never even considered its points, and subsequently did their best to eject Gaura Kesava Prabhu from any position or status within iskcon. Srila Prabhupada preached extensively in many lectures about Who can be guru. He wrote: ". . . When a person realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Krsna, he loses interest in everything but Krsna's service. Always thinking of Krsna, devising means by which to spread the holy name of Krsna, he understands that his only business is in spreading the Krsna consciousness movement all over the world. Such a person is to be recognized as an uttama-adhikari, and his association should be immediately accepted according to the six processes (dadati pratigrhnati, etc.). Indeed, the advanced uttama-adhikari Vaisnava devotee should be accepted as a spiritual master. Everything one possesses should be offered to him, for it is enjoined that one should deliver whatever he has to the spiritual master. The brahmacari in particular is supposed to beg alms from others and offer them to the spiritual master. However, one should not imitate the behavior of an advanced devotee or maha-bhagavata without being self-realized, for by such imitation one will eventually become degraded. In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. NOI Verse 5 Purport HDGACBSP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 whoops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 16, 2006 Report Share Posted July 16, 2006 Prabhupada's books explain how the Parampara continues. Ajuna and Krsna. Pariksit and Sukadeva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.