Can one who has sinned be a saint???

[krsna]

Can one who has sinned be a saint?

 

 

 

<!-- begin content -->Submitted by jswami on June 21, 2006 - 11:03am.

 

 

Sometimes people think that once a person has performed sinful acts, especially acts that are grievously sinful, he must be regarded as a sinner forever. This notion runs contrary to Vaishnava philosophy.

I am posting here the first of a series of quotations in this regard.

From Bhagavad-gita As It Is (9.30) by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

 

api cet su-duracaro

bhajate mam ananya-bhak

sadhur eva sa mantavyah

samyag vyavasito hi sah

api — even; cet — if; su-duracarah — one committing the most abominable actions; bhajate — is engaged in devotional service; mam — unto Me; ananya-bhak — without deviation; sadhuh — a saint; eva — certainly; sah — he; mantavyah — is to be considered; samyak — completely; vyavasitah — situated in determination; hi — certainly; sah — he.

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

PURPORT

The word su-duracarah used in this verse is very significant, and we should understand it properly. When a living entity is conditioned, he has two kinds of activities: one is conditional, and the other is constitutional. As for protecting the body or abiding by the rules of society and state, certainly there are different activities, even for the devotees, in connection with the conditional life, and such activities are called conditional. Besides these, the living entity who is fully conscious of his spiritual nature and is engaged in Krsna consciousness, or the devotional service of the Lord, has activities which are called transcendental. Such activities are performed in his constitutional position, and they are technically called devotional service. Now, in the conditioned state, sometimes devotional service and the conditional service in relation to the body will parallel one another. But then again, sometimes these activities become opposed to one another. As far as possible, a devotee is very cautious so that he does not do anything that could disrupt his wholesome condition. He knows that perfection in his activities depends on his progressive realization of Krsna consciousness. Sometimes, however, it may be seen that a person in Krsna consciousness commits some act which may be taken as most abominable socially or politically. But such a temporary falldown does not disqualify him. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that if a person falls down but is wholeheartedly engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Lord, the Lord, being situated within his heart, purifies him and excuses him from that abomination. The material contamination is so strong that even a yogi fully engaged in the service of the Lord sometimes becomes ensnared; but Krsna consciousness is so strong that such an occasional falldown is at once rectified. Therefore the process of devotional service is always a success. No one should deride a devotee for some accidental falldown from the ideal path, for, as explained in the next verse, such occasional falldowns will be stopped in due course, as soon as a devotee is completely situated in Krsna consciousness.

Therefore a person who is situated in Krsna consciousness and is engaged with determination in the process of chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be considered to be in the transcendental position, even if by chance or accident he is found to have fallen. The words sadhur eva, “he is saintly,” are very emphatic. They are a warning to the nondevotees that because of an accidental falldown a devotee should not be derided; he should still be considered saintly even if he has accidentally fallen down. And the word mantavyah is still more emphatic. If one does not follow this rule, and derides a devotee for his accidental falldown, then one is disobeying the order of the Supreme Lord. The only qualification of a devotee is to be unflinchingly and exclusively engaged in devotional service.

In the Nrsimha Purana the following statement is given:

bhagavati ca harav ananya-ceta

bhrsa-malino ‘pi virajate manusyah

na hi sasa-kalusa-cchabih kadacit

timira-parabhavatam upaiti candrah

The meaning is that even if one fully engaged in the devotional service of the Lord is sometimes found engaged in abominable activities, these activities should be considered to be like the spots that resemble the mark of a rabbit on the moon. Such spots do not become an impediment to the diffusion of moonlight. Similarly, the accidental falldown of a devotee from the path of saintly character does not make him abominable.

On the other hand, one should not misunderstand that a devotee in transcendental devotional service can act in all kinds of abominable ways; this verse only refers to an accident due to the strong power of material connections. Devotional service is more or less a declaration of war against the illusory energy. As long as one is not strong enough to fight the illusory energy, there may be accidental falldowns. But when one is strong enough, he is no longer subjected to such falldowns, as previously explained. No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee. If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee.

[mahak]

Haribol. I wont re-post the long story, but my favorite one about a saved sinner is at:

 

http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/dd.html

 

Comments anyone?

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[krsna]

The proper mood of respect

 

 

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Tamala Krsna: “It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, then our spoils will be tainted with blood [bg. 2.5].”

 

 

Prabhupada: This is another indication how superiors should be shown respect. Arjuna says, “Although they have become avaricious, still, they are my superior.” Avaricious, why? “They have got full affection for me. My grandfather Bhisma has got full affection for me. And Dronacarya, I am his very dear student so he has also my very affection… good affection for me. But because Duryodhana has paid them, he has accepted their service. Paid them. So avaricious. Simply for money, in spite of so much affection and intimate relationship, they have accepted the service of Duryodhana, counting on money. So therefore they are avaricious. But in spite of their being avaricious, they are my respectful.” This is respect. This is respect, that the respectful person who is my respectful, even there are some characteristics who does not command respect, still respect should be offered. This is a respectful offering. Yes. Sometimes it may be. The example is given. In the Bhagavad-gita you’ll find, api cet sudaracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavyah [bg. 9.30]. “Even a devotee is sometimes found not acting properly, but because he has got that unflinching faith and devotion upon Me,” Krsna says, “therefore he is saint.” Only for that one qualification — he does not know except Krsna. So to such person, even some flaws are found in their character… Just like we have imposed some rules that illicit sex relationship and intoxication, meat-eating, so many things. So… Of course, intentionally one should not break these laws. But even sometimes we may find that there is some flaw in one’s part… Suppose if I see somebody smoking, but he is doing Krsna consciousness very nicely. So we should not deride. We shall give him concession to reform. It does not mean that because he has accidentally smoked, smoking, that does not mean he has become immediately disqualified. As Arjuna is showing: “Although they have become avaricious, still, they are my superiors. Still. Still, they are my superiors.” This is called unflinching faith. In spite of seeing my respectful superior abominable, not willingly, but by accident, still, I should not withdraw my respect. That is the… Hmm.”

-B.G.2.1-10 and talk, Los Angeles, 25. November.1968

[AncientMariner]

 

The proper mood of respect

 

 

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Tamala Krsna: “It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, then our spoils will be tainted with blood [bg. 2.5].”

 

 

Prabhupada: This is another indication how superiors should be shown respect. Arjuna says, “Although they have become avaricious, still, they are my superior.” Avaricious, why? “They have got full affection for me. My grandfather Bhisma has got full affection for me. And Dronacarya, I am his very dear student so he has also my very affection… good affection for me. But because Duryodhana has paid them, he has accepted their service. Paid them. So avaricious. Simply for money, in spite of so much affection and intimate relationship, they have accepted the service of Duryodhana, counting on money. So therefore they are avaricious. But in spite of their being avaricious, they are my respectful.” This is respect. This is respect, that the respectful person who is my respectful, even there are some characteristics who does not command respect, still respect should be offered. This is a respectful offering. Yes. Sometimes it may be. The example is given. In the Bhagavad-gita you’ll find, api cet sudaracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavyah [bg. 9.30]. “Even a devotee is sometimes found not acting properly, but because he has got that unflinching faith and devotion upon Me,” Krsna says, “therefore he is saint.” Only for that one qualification — he does not know except Krsna. So to such person, even some flaws are found in their character… Just like we have imposed some rules that illicit sex relationship and intoxication, meat-eating, so many things. So… Of course, intentionally one should not break these laws. But even sometimes we may find that there is some flaw in one’s part… Suppose if I see somebody smoking, but he is doing Krsna consciousness very nicely. So we should not deride. We shall give him concession to reform. It does not mean that because he has accidentally smoked, smoking, that does not mean he has become immediately disqualified. As Arjuna is showing: “Although they have become avaricious, still, they are my superiors. Still. Still, they are my superiors.” This is called unflinching faith. In spite of seeing my respectful superior abominable, not willingly, but by accident, still, I should not withdraw my respect. That is the… Hmm.”

-B.G.2.1-10 and talk, Los Angeles, 25. November.1968

 

 

Does this mean Krishna Consciousness people should extend all respect to George Bush because George Bush claims to be a believer in God or does this only count if someone is in the institution of Iskcon?

[Beggar]

 

Can one who has sinned be a saint?

 

Everyone except me.

[Guest guest]

 

Can one who has sinned be a saint???>>>

 

a better questions is ;

 

Can one who is SINNING be a saint?

 

It's easy to forgive one who has sinned, but can we forgive one who is sinning?

 

That's the real test.

 

It's all a matter of knowing about real foregiveness as opposed to feigned foregiveness that has certain limitations and stipulations attached to it.

 

When we are dealing with devotees, we must release all these conditions and stipulations to foregiveness and humble ourselves as the least of all.

[theist]

 

a better questions is ;

 

Can one who is SINNING be a saint?

 

It's easy to forgive one who has sinned, but can we forgive one who is sinning?

 

That's the real test.

 

It's all a matter of knowing about real foregiveness as opposed to feigned foregiveness that has certain limitations and stipulations attached to it.

 

When we are dealing with devotees, we must release all these conditions and stipulations to foregiveness and humble ourselves as the least of all.

 

If someone is in a pattern of repeated sins vs. an accidental falldown he may not be a saint but the one that forgives him anyway is more likely a saint.

[Kulapavana]

what is a proof someone is actually a saint?

 

can you be a saint on the basis of a philosophical argument? or do we see someone as a saint because of his saintly actions?

 

if hundreds of sincere Vaishnavas do not consider you a saint, the only sane thing to do is to assume you are NOT a saint.

 

the rest is word games.