Realisation???

July 22, 2006

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

>"R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani >

>

> Are we trying to make one line longer by making the other line shorter!?

> Hari Om

Maniji -PraNAms.

The answer as I see is very simple. Any thinking involving two factors - one

is vasanaas and the other is will. In animals and other lower forms

there is only the first and not the second. Hence the behavior is well

predictable. Their behavior is predictable.

From

Sankarraman

I don't understand the implication of the statement that the animals are driven by mere vasanas lacking the will as against the homo sapiens fully-developed in both. Whereas will is a mere urge for survival, vasana is tinged with memories involving psychological individuality and time, which the animals are not capable of as against the humans. Because the latter contains the seed of division born of the mind, our sense of repulsion and hatred and pleasure-pain relationship in relation to the humans is greater against the natural calamities as well as the behaviour of animals which are predictable, rather subject to a cosmic order. If you look at from a deeper perspective, the order in the natural world is one of of unconscious perfection as against the human beings carrying on with a conscious imperfection. The further transition to conscious perfection has to take place which can procee only from the stage of

homo sapiens. But the real truth is that unrelated to all these there is the truth which transcends all perfections and imperfections, which is neither conscious nor unconscious, all these realms belonging to the world of duality alone. Further, psychologically there is no evolution; all is only an apperance. Only to satify the needs of our minds entrenched in obstinate duality all these divisions are meant to be relevant to enable ourselves to carry on with our ego-created goals. The question as to why we get agitated by human behaviour is very simple, not admitting of much philosophical cogitation. At the human level only we experience pain and pleasure, psychologically in time, creating seeds of futre experiences by virtue of the inherent time-process implanted in the human mind. Boredom, loneliness, escapist urge, all these problems, no animal is capable of. Human beings alone, that is the mind alone is capable of indulging in adhyasa; human beings

alone are capable of entertaining the idea of liberation. This does not mean to suggest the idea of the humans being superiour to animals; the two are in different time-series. Can we compare the jagrat with sushupti? Even among the human beings, most of them are in a state of metaphysical sleep according to George Gurjiffe; only a few are capable of self-remembering. Apropos the gentleman's averment that we are not critical of the actions of nature, are we sure that we accept them as cosmic processes? Do we not get mind-born reactions by virtue of our sense of continuty built through psychological memories? Further, one cannot be good as long as one belives oneself to be a psychological individaul; one can be only a do-gooder which is a different thing. Goodness is the whole and does not consist in the relative attributes. That we accept the cosmic processes without reaction is only an intellectual idea. If we really accepted, we would be superior to our

sufferings and not seek wealh, position and power. On the one side we want to reach the zenith of achievement in name and fame; on the other side we want to protect cling to our unstable pranas by hook or crook.

Sankarraman_________

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July 22, 2006

Namaste,

I hope I am not going astray, when I put down the following, if so, please correct me:

Sri Sadanandji wrote:

What is the strongest vasana in Human Beings, as compared to animals?

Sri Tonyji said:

<<<The concession I will make to you is that in this illusion/delusion the human desire or ego is much more developed than in most animals.>>>

The strongest vasana and desire in human beings is to remain all the time in his real swaroopa. And that is why -

No one can stand mortality (as he is immortal, being Sat or Existence and that too Anantham Sat or Satyam)

No one can stand Ignorance (as he is Knowledge itself, Gnanam itself, and that too Anantham Gnanam)

No one can stand unhappiness (as he is Happiness itself, being Anantham Satyam and Anantham Gnanam).

Human beings are self-conscious to a very great extent as compared to the animals and that is the reason why a person is always interested in improving his self. No animal is known, from their behavior, trying to improve their self. Jokingly, Swamiji used to say, no cow is trying to paint its horns to look more beautiful, nor does it try to change the shape of its horns to match the shape of the horns of another cow. The animals do not compete among themselves for improving their self. Whereas human beings are engaged in this competition all the time, in order to improve and make their self perfect, but, due to ignorance or partial ignorance, they take body, mind and intellect, which is not their self, as their self. It is because of this competition, and the attitude to defeat others for establishing one’s supremacy, he (the ego) develops all the negative traits, such as jealousy, greed, anger, etc. whenever he feels his poonatwam/perfection compared to others is in

doubt. That is the problem.

One can have a vasana or desire for something about which he must have some prior knowledge. I cannot have desire for “gagabuga” (as Swamiji says).

So, human beings have inherent knowledge about their Real Swaroopa i.e. One’s self is Poornam, because it is Satyam Gnanam Anantham, and therefore Aanandam itself, but this knowledge is covered by ignorance. Still he has some memory about that inherent knowledge about the Poornatwam of his self, otherwise he would not search for it. (As Arjuna said “Nashto Mohaha, Smruthi Labdhwa”). The Shastra is for reminding oneself of his real swaroopa, (Shastram Gnapakartham eva).

However, one is trying to remain in his own Swaroopa by making adjustments externally, in his gross and subtle bodies, because he is, with the equipment available to him, capable of looking externally only. These being only Nama and Roopa and therefore Mithya with no independent existence, can never be made perfect, and they are also subject to continuous change.

I heard Swami Paramarthananda saying, “when I put right my headache, leg pain starts, and I go for treatment, and get relieved, but, Lo, back pain has started and this process continues”. “He thus continues all the life to make something that is imperfect, perfect all because of his ignorance”.

Ego always wants to establish its supremacy (as in essence it is supreme, being Brahman itself) and in the process engages itself in competition and tries to defeat others whenever it feels its supremacy in questioned.

Hari Om and Warm Regards

Mani

R. S. Mani

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July 24, 2006

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

KS prabhuji:

Our attachments and distractions are due to the pressure of vasanaas, and

only way to purify is to neutralize the vAsanas, by appropriate yoga, then

the path is very clear.

The choices you have raised, if you examine carefully are not mutually

exclusive. The second one that you mentioned as vairaagya becomes a

prerequisite for the first one that is recognition that everything is

Brahman - the body, mind intellect etc and therefore enjoy as they are.

bhaskar :

I whole heartedly agree with you prabhuji...Infact, this is what more

palatable for gruhastha-s (householders) like us who are desparately

looking for some sort of justification *to be* in saMsAra :-))

But when we analyse the practical situation that we are in, the metaphor

*padmapatramivAmbhasI (living like a lotus in water)* or the concept

*everything brahman* hardly has any impact on our spiritual upliftment..is

it not?? when our brahma in the form of my kid (in short *kid brahma*:-))

) sneezes our nose starts running :-)) when *kid brahma* complains of pain

in stomach we started feeling jurk in our heart, so thick our attachment

with our kith & kin & we can hardly apply the rule *everything* is brahman

& suffering is also a part & parcel of brahman no need to worry.. is it

not?? when our wife/kids lying on the bed with some ailment can we wear the

*everything brahman* look & take it objectively without any untoward

ripples in the *mind brahma*!!?? if you ask me, situation in which we grew

does not

permit us to *brahmanise* everything...I think that is the reason why our

shAstra-s instructed us to develop dispassion & AtmAnAma vastu vivEka &

that is the reason why mahAtma's like buddha, rAmatIrtha, ramaNa, shankara

bhagavadpAda etc. given up everything for the sake of ultimate cause??

were they unaware of the trick to tackle the saMsAra by *brahmanising*

everything ?? Moreover, why those who are advanced in the path of

spirituality advocating tirelessly the efficacy of vairAgya & saNyAsa ??

when we have the comfort of this trick, why upanishad crying at the top of

its voice *na karmaNa, na prajaya, dhanEna tyAgEnaikE amrutatva mAnashuhu*

(taitirIya mahAnArAyaNa

upa. & kaivalyOpanishad) ??

Finally, kindly clarify for whom nivrutti mArga insisted in our

scriptures?? whether saNyAsa/vairAgya exclusively meant for noble souls

like buddha, vivEkananda etc. or average people like us who are deeply

entangled in saMsAra ??

Kindly pardon me if I asked you some stupid questions.But these are all the

questions come to my mind whenever I start thinking in favour of pravrutti

mArga.

>I think shankara has recommended the

>later & advised sarvasanga parityAga & saNyAsa to persue Atma jnAna.

KS prabhuji:

The statement the way you put it is correct - it is recommended - and not

insisted.

bhaskar :

Infact he does insisted !!! bhagavadpAda does insist for shrouta saNyAsa &

implies there is no mOksha at all without saNyAsa...In the introduction to

ItarEya shruti shankara says * shamadamAdInAm cha Atmadarshana sAdhanAnAM

*anyAshramEshu anupapatEH* *atyAshramibhyaH_parama_pavitraM*...The last two

sentences are self explanatory to show how shankara emphasized saNyAsa

(atyAshrama) against other Ashrama-s....

Hari OM!

Sadananda

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

July 24, 2006

>bhaskar.yr (AT) in (DOT) abb.com

>But when we analyse the practical situation that we are in, the metaphor

>*padmapatramivAmbhasI (living like a lotus in water)* or the concept

>*everything brahman* hardly has any impact on our spiritual upliftment..is

>it not?? when our brahma in the form of my kid (in short *kid brahma*:-))

>) sneezes our nose starts running :-)) when *kid brahma* complains of pain

>in stomach we started feeling jurk in our heart, so thick our attachment

>with our kith & kin & we can hardly apply the rule *everything* is brahman

>& suffering is also a part & parcel of brahman no need to worry.. is it

>not?? when our wife/kids lying on the bed with some ailment can we wear the

>*everything brahman* look & take it objectively without any untoward

>ripples in the *mind brahma*!!?? if you ask me, situation in which we grew

>does not

>permit us to *brahmanise* everything...I think that is the reason why our

>shAstra-s instructed us to develop dispassion & AtmAnAma vastu vivEka &

>that is the reason why mahAtma's like buddha, rAmatIrtha, ramaNa, shankara

>bhagavadpAda etc. given up everything for the sake of ultimate cause??

>were they unaware of the trick to tackle the saMsAra by *brahmanising*

>everything ??

Baskarji - PraNAms.

What you have pointed out are real practicle problems. Arjuana questions

the same thing -

cancalam hi manaH krishNa pramaadi balavad dRidam|

tasyAham nigraham manye vaayoriva sudhuSkaram||

and Krishna agrees with him, it is indeed difficult - BUT - there is big

but there - it can done - by abhyAsa and vairAgya.

Look at the alternatives. If the vasanas are there pulling done into

samsaara, running away from the field of action is not a solution for

neutralizing vaasanaas. One has to exhaust while living in the environment

one is in until one develops sufficient vairAgya that the vasana pressure is

not there to keep one in that particular environment. Budhha left his

family only when he felt the powerful vaasaana took him out of that

environment for his spiritual sadhana. That is due to his purva janma

samskAra. Same is Bhagavaan Ramana Maharshi. When they left they gave up

everthing and left.

Now question is does one has to leave in order to realize it - no. The

nature of the problem and solution to the problem are very clear. Some one

asked Bhagavan Ramana, is sanyAsa necessary for self-realization and his

answer was it is not necessary but it is helpful. Becuase the very question

implies the fellow is not ready for sanyaasa - for if he is ready, he would

not pose that question.

Fact of the matter is external sanyaasa is not necessary but it is helpful

if one can utilize that opportunity. Remember Bhajagovindama sloka -'

jaTilomunDii luncitakeshaH...'

>Moreover, why those who are advanced in the path of

>spirituality advocating tirelessly the efficacy of vairAgya & saNyAsa ??

>when we have the comfort of this trick, why upanishad crying at the top of

>its voice *na karmaNa, na prajaya, dhanEna tyAgEnaikE amrutatva mAnashuhu*

>(taitirIya mahAnArAyaNa

>upa. & kaivalyOpanishad) ??

Sanyaasa is necessary - one has to give up the attachment to the lower

inorder to reach higher. There is no doubt about that.

Question is what constitutes that sanyaasa. Having external sanyaasa does

not guarentee the mental sanyaasa. As one said one can develop attachment

to koupiinam too. Swami Tapovan Maharaj 'Iswra Darshan' laments actions of

many sanyaasins which were not worthy of that ashram. Hence he refused to

give sanyAsa to anyone.

No upanishad dictates that external sanyaasa is prerequisite for

self-realization. Otherwise we would not have teachers of yore including

VyAsa bhagavAn - why even Lord Narayana himself!

I agree that it is difficult which I am finding myself, but the fact is

external sanyaasa is not necessary but it could be helpful to contemplate

without much disturbances, for those who can do it.

>

>Finally, kindly clarify for whom nivrutti mArga insisted in our

>scriptures?? whether saNyAsa/vairAgya exclusively meant for noble souls

>like buddha, vivEkananda etc. or average people like us who are deeply

>entangled in saMsAra ??

Bhaskarji - you are knowledgeble in all these. My saying anything is like

showing light to Bhaskar!

NivRittti - is not having any vRitti. Mind cannot but think unless one is

in deep sleep state.

Therefore nivRitti during the sadhana stage involves 'neti - neti' rejecting

the 'iti' which are superimpositions and shifting the attention to the

substantive of the vRitti - that is consciousness - tasya bhaasaa sarvam

idam vibhaati - Hence nivRitti maarga involves meditative process involving

rejection of anAtma to establish oneslef in Atma. For this external sanyaasa

is helpful but is neither necessary nor sufficient.

But state of nivRitti is firm abidance in that knowledge that substantive

remains all the time inspite of the apparent vRitti. Hence seeing oneself

as the substantive of all the vRittis too - That forms true nirvikalpaka

samAdhi - nirvikalpa in spite of vikalpa - nivRitti in spite of vRitti - in

action in spite of action - nonduality in spite of duality. That is the

turiiyam. In that case you are an eternal sanyaasi or true sanyaasi,

sinceyou have recognzied that there is nothing there to be tangible for

nyaasa.

>

>Kindly pardon me if I asked you some stupid questions.But these are all the

>questions come to my mind whenever I start thinking in favour of pravrutti

>mArga.

>

> >I think shankara has recommended the

> >later & advised sarvasanga parityAga & saNyAsa to persue Atma jnAna.

>

>KS prabhuji:

>

>The statement the way you put it is correct - it is recommended - and not

>insisted.

>

>bhaskar :

>

>Infact he does insisted !!! bhagavadpAda does insist for shrouta saNyAsa &

>implies there is no mOksha at all without saNyAsa...In the introduction to

>ItarEya shruti shankara says * shamadamAdInAm cha Atmadarshana sAdhanAnAM

>*anyAshramEshu anupapatEH* *atyAshramibhyaH_parama_pavitraM*...The last two

>sentences are self explanatory to show how shankara emphasized saNyAsa

>(atyAshrama) against other Ashrama-s....

Bhaskarji - Here I would interpret Shankara's insistence as the

recommendation as the best approach in order to provide the mental

detachment. If external sanyAsa is pre-requisite then we have to discard

the vedas - becuase most of Rishis were married - starting from Yajnavalkya,

vashiShTa, Uddalaka etc therefore not realized souls for them to teach us.

The problem is simple - it is the knowledge of oneself and to gain that

knowledge one has to give up our wrong notions about oneself.

Everything else has only relative value. All pervading reality cannot have

any paths, paths are for purification of the mind. To say that this is the

only way to purify and not the other way, borders to fanaticism and not

science. Any insistence that that is the only way for realization,

contradicts the all pervading advaitic nature of the reality itself. Having

said that I realize strongly that external sanyaasa would help, if one is

ready for it (other vasanAs have been nullified to the degree that one can

take up that without any regrets) then that is the best.

All I can say is I have take up sanyaasa to test that myself, if that is

true. Otherwise it is only academics. Since you were the one who was

responsible for my writing on ManDukya, I may tell my wife that you are the

one who is responsible for my taking the orange robes!

With love.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

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July 24, 2006

Namaste,

Kuntimaddi Sadananda wrote:

>

> Bhaskarji - Here I would interpret Shankara's insistence as the

> recommendation as the best approach in order to provide the mental

> detachment. If external sanyAsa is pre-requisite then we have to discard

> the vedas - becuase most of Rishis were married - starting from Yajnavalkya,

> vashiShTa, Uddalaka etc therefore not realized souls for them to teach us.

Just a bit of nitpicking here. That some/many of the R^iShi-s got

married at some juncture doesn't mean that they stayed with their

families all their lives. We know very well that vAnaprastha/saMnyAsa

were follow-ups to the gR^ihastha Ashrama, and only a few went

directly from brahmacarya to saMnyAsa.

The SAkyamuni buddha was also a married man with a son, before he left

home & hearth.

The famous yAj~navalkya - maitreyI dialogue is also a precursor to the

former taking up saMnyAsa.

------------------

> said that I realize strongly that external sanyaasa would help, if one is

> ready for it (other vasanAs have been nullified to the degree that one can

> take up that without any regrets) then that is the best.

>

------------------

Is such a thing as "mental saMnyAsa" even possible in today's world?

In ancient times, people's needs and expectations were much lesser.

The pace of life was radically different. In modern times, with such

levels of external stimulus, true renunciation is that much more

difficult, making the traditional saMnyAsa Ashrama more relevant than

ever before.

Ramesh

July 25, 2006

> it not?? when our brahma in the form of my kid (in short *kid

brahma*:-))

> ) sneezes our nose starts running :-)) when *kid brahma* complains

of pain

> in stomach we started feeling jurk in our heart, so thick our

attachment

> with our kith & kin & we can hardly apply the rule *everything* is

brahman

> & suffering is also a part & parcel of brahman no need to worry..

is it

> not?? when our wife/kids lying on the bed with some ailment can we

wear the

> *everything brahman* look & take it objectively without any

untoward

> ripples in the *mind brahma*!!??

Namaskar Bhaskar-ji, It is easier said that done but in a situation

like you describe above, you can do 2 things :

#1 mentally start chanting your favorite mantra - say "Om Namah

Sivaya" - I bow to Lord Siva, I bow to the law of Karma, I submit to

the law of karma.

#2 Use dry logic - keep pleading mentally that I am pure awareness,

without any mata, pita, patni, putra, bhrata etc. All this is

prakruti but I am pure awareness.This dry logic about pure awareness

sometimes works wonders.

regards,

Om Namah Sivaya

July 25, 2006

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Dear Members,

Pranams to you all.

The discussions on this subject is very interesting.

But in the whole dialogue that is taking place , it is very surprising that as the students of Shankara Vedanta, the most important and fundamental question has not been put at all;

The question is,

ARE YOU IN THE SAMSARA

OR

SAMSARA IS IN YOU?

Is not the investigation to this all important question the foremost work to be done by sincere and serious students of Shankara Vedanta? Is it not the purpose of entering the portals of Vedanta? Please correct me if I have erred.

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy.

bhaskar.yr (AT) in (DOT) abb.com wrote: