Orthodox Jews Demand End to Zionist Atrocities in the Middle East

[jijaji]

 

July 18, 2006: Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews joined

a Pro Palestinian Rally outside the Israeli Consulate,

New York City against the Zionist attacks on Lebanon.

 

Orthodox Jews Demand End to Zionist Atrocities in the Middle East

 

July 18

The brutal and indiscriminate attack upon the people and infrastructure of Lebanon by the Zionist State "Israel" is a crime against all basic standards of decency and humanity.

 

The excuse given for this murderous invasion was the attack by Hezbollah on the IDF. What this might have to do with the hundreds of thousands of Lebanese innocent men, women and children, who are subjected to an ongoing living hell, is beyond comprehension.

 

Indeed, this current aggression is only the second chapter of the recent viciousness; the first being the furious reinvasion of Gaza and the onslaught on its civilians and the ruination of its basic human services.

 

Of course, voices may be heard that the IDF are simply responding. This, of course, ignores the question of the evil, implicit in punishing blameless people for the deeds of others. And it totally ignores the root of the problem, the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinian people which began in 1948, was expanded in 1967 and continues unabated to this day. The crux of the matter is that beyond the immorality of the Zionist treatment of the Palestinians is the ultimate fact -- the ideology of Zionism and ensuing establishment of the Zionist state conflicts with the basic teachings of Judaism.

 

Zionism is the transformation from Judaism, a G-dliness and spirituality, into a G-dlessness, materialism with nationalistic aspirations. Theodor Herzl and his cohorts, the fathers of this relatively new ideology of Zionism (approximately 100 years), have taken the Almighty out of the equation.

 

The ultimate establishment of the Zionist State, the fulfilment of the Zionist ideology, takes this blasphemy a step further. The Jewish people were sent into exile by Divine decree. They where then expressly commanded by the Almighty, not to attempt to leave their exilic existence through any human intervention. They were expressly forbidden to create their own state, such as the Zionist state of "Israel". (Talmud, Tractate Kesuboth, p.111).

 

The Jewish people are forbidden to oppress another people. The creation of the State of "Israel" came about through, the theft from, subjugation and oppression of, the Palestinian people.

 

Torah Jewry, therefore, condemns the horrifying suffering inflicted upon both the Palestinian and Lebanese people. Because of all of the above, all attempts to achieve peace and stability for "Israel" are destined to fail. The Creator cannot be defied with impunity.

 

The Rabbis stated, that the State of "Israel" will result in unending pain, suffering and bloodshed. May the Almighty protect His creations.

 

The State of "Israel" does not speak in the name of Jews, they have stolen the name "Israel" from the Jewish people. Jews are commanded to be loyal citizens in every country in which they reside.

 

Zionism and the State of "Israel", is the main cause of the exacerbation of anti Semitism universally.

 

The government of the illegitimate State of "Israel", continually attempts to uproot the Torah and its statutes. They persistently oppress the Torah true Jews who reside in its borders.

 

We pray that all misery in the Holy Land and Lebanon, shall come to an end and that Zionism, the root of the suffering, continue to fade from Jewish consciousness, to be replaced by the faith of Torah. We shall all witness soon the peaceful dismantlement of the Zionist State "Israel". May we merit seeing the day when all humanity will serve the Almighty in harmony and peace. Amen

 

http://www.nkusa.org

[Kulapavana]

 

May we merit seeing the day when all humanity will serve the Almighty in harmony and peace. Amen

 

now, that is true spirituality! Hare Krsna!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

These orthodox followers shall come around - they are waiting for the messiah - then they'll go back...

[Guest guest]

 

These orthodox followers shall come around - they are waiting for the messiah - then they'll go back...

 

Some elaboration for this interesting notion - more details, please!

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

The Jewish people are forbidden to oppress another people. The creation of the State of "Israel" came about through, the theft from, subjugation and oppression of, the Palestinian people.

 

 

 

 

Wow you would think they would at least have their history accurate, too much time in America tends to do that to people.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Some elaboration for this interesting notion - more details, please!

Sure here are some of my thoughts on this [forgive me if they are garbled sounding].

 

These noted orthodox followers are interpreting that they cannot return to Jerusalem to renew the State - without the messiah. But they should embrace the renewed State - for the following reasons and - more.

 

The children of Ephraim were as archers handling the bow, that turned back in the day of battle. [Psalms 78.9]

 

So best to be not now - like them then.

 

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven away, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a mighty nation; and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from thenceforth even for ever. [Micah 4.6-7]

 

Of course the messiah that is expected - shall not be seen through any second advent of Jesus - because Jesus isn't the prophetically expected messiah - the 'why not' part of that - is a whole other discussion .

 

So it should be noted that the expected messiah [a complex subject matter] - is a human being - not God - not an incarnation [partial or otherwise] he isn't a demigod - he isn't a 'supernatural' nor divine being at all. - though he is 'different' - in that he has a 'general soul' or - a 'slightly universal' soul.

 

He doesn't have magic powers. Like in the days of old - God shall work the wonders - during the messianic age.

 

So what are a few points about this - in the Prophetic tradition.

 

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. [Micah 4.4-5]

 

In that quote we see that the messianic age - shall be multi-faith.

 

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel. [Micah 5.1-2]

 

In that quote we see that the messiah's maternal roots could be traced to this place [Beth-lehem]. To say 'which art little to be among the thousands of Judah' indicates that this was an obscure place - not a place of greatness.

 

It is a misnomer that he is to be born in Beth-lehem - clearly the texts confirm he is born among the exiles.

 

In saying 'out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days' confirms that he has been reincarnating toward this point for a long time - 'whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days'.

 

We also see that Beth-lehem shall not be a part of a State of Israel 'until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth' or - he is born - the text says 'Therefore will He give them up' - so is he talking about Beth-lehem - the Hebrew people in exile [and thus Jursalem] or - both?

 

The full point is 'Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - so 'them' indentifies - both those in exile and - Beth-lehem.

 

So they 'shall return' to where - to an already renewed and infant State or - to just a geographical location or - both?

 

We must consider that were it not for Jesus and the Faith surronding him - Beth-lehem would certainly have become a nearly deserted and forgotten place [by the time messiah is born somewhere in the exile] and - for Hebrews it [was] is an 'obscure place' a place of 'no mention'.

 

So we have to then ask - when did Beth-lehem again become part of a State of Israel?

 

It was on June 05, 1967 - so 'He [will] give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth and - that then should indicate that - he must have to be born just prior to that event.

 

Consider 'He [will] give them up until the time that she who is to give birth has given birth' - the word 'until' is important - so they are no longer 'given up' right after he is born and - if the messiah is to [alone] accomplish all this - how would he do so - as an infant child? So the use of 'until' means that as soon as he is born - no more position of being 'given up' or seperated from the renewed State.

 

We can also add that the formal reclamation of all of Jerusalem could/would also coincide with this noted event:

 

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? Is there no King in thee, is thy Counsellor perished, that pangs have taken hold of thee as of a woman in travail? [Micah 4.9]

 

After that - there is this description in Zechariah 1.14-17:

 

...so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

 

So that part - 'I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil.' - that means that God is angry at the nations of the world for it's treatment of His exiled because He was 'but a little displeased' and yet the nations after the exile were to have 'helped for evil' [or helped forward the afflications] and they were 'at ease' with doing so - thus God says 'I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy' - so when we see fruition of the Micah 5.1-2 events we see that God permits all of Jerusalem to be again under an Israeli State.

 

The State of Israel was first reclaimed after WWII - after the well known last general pogrom [directly under the Nazis and other's indirectly] came to an end - as noted in that quote God thinks that the world could have done more to prevent so much loss and instead they were 'at ease' with the Nazis - for too long - and God sanctioned this renewal - but - with this renewed State - there was a line as it were through [dividing] Jerusalem - until 1967.

 

It should be mentioned that many propagandists have taken Zechariah 14.2 - 'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.' - to mean that there shall be a future war there and 'the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city' - but this not so - as that was fulfilled in 30 C.E. - with the Exile - it should be noted that Muslim rulers later allowed the reestablishment of a Jewish community in Jerusalem thus 'the residue of the people [that] shall not be cut off from the city' means that even after the exile the people were being enabled by God - for a return to a former status as a State or - the end of the Exile!

 

In text 3-4 we read that sometime after the exile comes "The Day of the Lord" - we note this point in texts three and four:

 

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fighteth in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, so that there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So God indeed left mercy and an open door through this 'residue of the people [that] shall not be cut off from the city' - so that means that at some point [after the 30 C.E. exile] - the residue of the exile again comes to Jerusalem.

 

Additionally - if the world ends up in a sorry state over this point - there may well come this 'vist' - that produces a mountain dividing earthquake - so - in text 7 we read - And there shall be one day which shall be known as the LORD'S, not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light. - of course we 'everyone' have choices - that impact everything.

 

So to the point again - there must have been a State of Israel - already in existence and intended by God - before the time of his birth - as noted by 'then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - it means that there is a State for him and his family and 'the children of Israel' to return to.

 

So yes these are my humble interpretations but - it could well be that he is already here - what aspects of the future of the State of Israel [and the world] are to be impacted by his appearance - is another discussion.

 

One thing is sure - whenever it is that he is born - there must have been a State of Israel - already in existence and intended by God [with a securing of Beth-lehem and [all of] Jerusalem with the timing of his birth] - before the time of his birth - as noted by 'then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - it means that there is already a State for him and 'the residue of his family' and 'the children of Israel' to return to.

 

We can see within this last quote [and through the other's so far] that there is a clear allusion to an exisiting Jerusalem and State - to the seeming surprise of God [and the remant of the people who later begin to return] some time before messiah is born - further - we've seen that God is to show-up in anger - which is noted as being - directed toward the nations - for their helping forward the afflictions of His exiled - when He was 'only a little displeased' - so - at the end of the last and worst pogrom [nazi] God indeed 'showed up' to reclaim Jerusalem and - as expected and 'planned' - He was 'surprised' to see some of His exiled - already there and - because He was sore displeased with the nations - for their 'at ease' adventures in the continual pogroms - He was pleased with finding some remant of His exiled there and He thus began the process - for messiah to be born and - coinciding it with the removal of the dividing-line through Jerusalem:

 

And the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying: 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great fury. Thus saith the LORD: I return unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts The holy mountain. Thus saith the LORD of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women sit in the broad places of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age. And the broad places of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the broad places thereof. Thus saith the LORD of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in Mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. [Zechariah 8.1-6]

 

So later - when the House of The Lord is reestablished by the Lord [and ONLY by the direct efforts of messiah not just the State itself can do this - and it musn't be through violence] - we note this point:

 

Take with you words, and return unto the LORD; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips. [Hosea 14.3]

 

One sad part of this is that messsiah's appearance shall be marked with spurious claims by others - that he is the anti-christ/al-dajjal.

 

I guess that's good for now...i might edit more info in later today - but I think that the point there is clear - the State of Israel doesn't stand in defiance of Torah nor the Will of God.

 

p.s.: all of this isn't at all odd from a vedic perspecive.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Theodor Herzl and his cohorts, the fathers of this relatively new ideology of Zionism (approximately 100 years), have taken the Almighty out of the equation.... Zionism and the State of "Israel", is the main cause of the exacerbation of anti Semitism universally.

 

To say they 'have taken the Almighty out of the equation' Not really! Who can do that? That is a shortsighted commment?

 

In any event Herzl had remarked that he thought that the Jewish peoples were at that time already being forced into forming a state - on their one hand the persecutions and pogroms and - on the other - the political pushing of various eurpean leaders - there was even a suggestion of a state in some other place - not the homeland of their ancestors - [the place where there were already a residue of Jews] which then would have been a permanent exile - by reason of it's somewhere else formation - so in any case - Herzl was concerned about that and more and he knew that he had to show some initiative in the matter to see that it wouldn't go the wrong direction - of course - he died before seeing the State AND - before seeing the evil pogrom of all pogroms...but all this is in the prophetic texts.

 

"Zionism and the State of "Israel", is the main cause of the exacerbation of anti Semitism universally."

 

That isn't true - it is an cultivated calculated reaction to the 'return' - did they expect that it would ever be any other way?

[Guest guest]

 

That isn't true - it is an cultivated calculated reaction to the 'return' - did they expect that it would ever be any other way?

 

Shalom Don, give 'em the sauce!

 

"Their religion, lay waste to their lands, for Israel cannot survive among foreign nations. The Jews come from God as a child comes from his father.

As man has hegemony, thus the Jews are superior to all the other peoples of the world, for the seed of the foreigner is like the seed of the bad smelling donkey.

Our savior the Messiah will not come until all the non-Jewish nations have perished and rule belongs only to the Jews.”

Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth)

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Shalom Don, give 'em the sauce!

 

"Their religion, lay waste to their lands, for Israel cannot survive among foreign nations. The Jews come from God as a child comes from his father.

As man has hegemony, thus the Jews are superior to all the other peoples of the world, for the seed of the foreigner is like the seed of the bad smelling donkey.

Our savior the Messiah will not come until all the non-Jewish nations have perished and rule belongs only to the Jews.”

Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth)

 

OM Shalom OM Shanti! Hari Bolo!

 

Thank you for your comments but I want to humbly raise a point with this if i may - you quoted - "until all the non-Jewish nations have perished" - that [Talmud?] quote is in contrast to [older] Micah - But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. [Micah 4.4-5]

 

Do you see what that means? every man and all the peoples walk each one?

During the messianic age there shall continue to be diverse nations and even diverse faiths! Is your quote seemingly attempting to cast Hebrews and their [later] teachings - as being genocide orientated?

So I'm not so sure of the point of your [more recent] quote.

 

Maybe you aught to approach that text - as having a more mystical and allegorical and - a less literal interpretation.

 

Rule belongs to the only REAL King - God. Messiah shall know and naturally impress that on everyone.

 

[jijaji]

Interesting to see that article drew so much response....

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Interesting to see that article drew so much response....

 

 

Well this is after all a message board and - that issue is a hot topic - so did you read my postings here - any response?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Some elaboration for this interesting notion - more details, please!

 

Hey spirit soul - did you note my detailed reply?

[Guest guest]

We are not to identify with our race in spirituality. Body identification is a great hinderance on the path of Self-Realization.

 

Vishnu has no chosen race. That is a Jewish belief, not a belief that Vaishnavas hold. Vaishnavas realize God resides equally in all: arab, jew, indian, african, chinese, and animal.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

We are not to identify with our race in spirituality. Body identification is a great hinderance on the path of Self-Realization.

 

Vishnu has no chosen race. That is a Jewish belief, not a belief that Vaishnavas hold. Vaishnavas realize God resides equally in all: arab, jew, indian, african, chinese, and animal.

 

Well if they are a chosen people - it was never because of their race - if you didn't have your head in the trash can - you might see that reflected in some of my postings and - why did God choose India and the Indians - why does He choose you?

 

The Lord is always present in some universe, just as the sun is present in either the eastern or the western hemisphere. The sun is always present either in India or in America, but when the sun is present in India, the American land is in darkness, and when the sun is present in America, the Indian hemisphere is in darkness. As the sun appears in the morning and gradually rises to the meridian and then again sets in one hemisphere while simultaneously rising in the other, so Lord Krsna’s disappearance in one universe and the beginning of His different pastimes in another take place simultaneously. [sB 32.2.7, purport]

 

In the lower nature, everyone thinks, “Oh, I am greater than you.” The Hindus think, “Oh, we are greater than Muslim.” The Muslim thinks, “We are greater than the Hindus.” The Christian thinks that “We are greater than the Jews.” The Jews thinks, “We are greater than...” This is material conception. But for Krsna there is no lower or higher. Every living being—His part and parcel. [Lecture, BG 12.3-4]

 

So that culture begins, civilized, in the Aryan families. Therefore they are called Aryans, “advanced.” Aryan means advanced. People want to group themselves in the Aryan family. Just like Hitler, he declared himself only, “The Germans are only Aryans, and Jews are not Aryans,” like that. You can manufacture. But real Aryan means one who is advanced in spiritual consciousness. He is Aryan. Not a class of men. [Lecture, SB 1.15.25-26]

 

Unless God is all-attractive, he cannot be God. God cannot be Hindus’ God or Christians’ God or Jews’ God or Mohammedans’ God. No. God is for everyone. [interview, March 9, 1968]

 

Quote:

 

We are not to identify with our race in spirituality.

 

Reply:

 

Well to say that Jews do that is not exactly correct - they follow a certain spirituality which - like yours - discourages non-devoted associations [worldly] with others - do you know how often Hare Krishna's are called isolationist for that very reason.

 

If you knew anything about the Hebrew faith you would know that race isn't a factor in why they were given the Law - the Torah - nor is it a factor in why they continue to follow that Torah.

 

I know that you have a partial understanding of these things and - a crippled judgement as a result.

 

- for you and - for everyone...

[jijaji]

 

Well this is after all a message board and - that issue is a hot topic - so did you read my postings here - any response?

 

No response Don, I was just reporting news my man...

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Sure here are some of my thoughts on this [forgive me if they are garbled sounding].

 

These noted orthodox followers are interpreting that they cannot return to Jerusalem to renew the State - without the messiah. But they should embrace the renewed State - for the following reasons and - more.

 

The children of Ephraim were as archers handling the bow, that turned back in the day of battle. [Psalms 78.9]

 

So best to be not now - like them then.

 

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven away, and her that I have afflicted; And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a mighty nation; and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from thenceforth even for ever. [Micah 4.6-7]

 

Of course the messiah that is expected - shall not be seen through any second advent of Jesus - because Jesus isn't the prophetically expected messiah - the 'why not' part of that - is a whole other discussion .

 

So it should be noted that the expected messiah [a complex subject matter] - is a human being - not God - not an incarnation [partial or otherwise] he isn't a demigod - he isn't a 'supernatural' nor divine being at all. - though he is 'different' - in that he has a 'general soul' or - a 'slightly universal' soul.

 

He doesn't have magic powers. Like in the days of old - God shall work the wonders - during the messianic age.

 

So what are a few points about this - in the Prophetic tradition.

 

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken. For let all the peoples walk each one in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. [Micah 4.4-5]

 

In that quote we see that the messianic age - shall be multi-faith.

 

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel. [Micah 5.1-2]

 

In that quote we see that the messiah's maternal roots could be traced to this place [Beth-lehem]. To say 'which art little to be among the thousands of Judah' indicates that this was an obscure place - not a place of greatness.

 

It is a misnomer that he is to be born in Beth-lehem - clearly the texts confirm he is born among the exiles.

 

In saying 'out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days' confirms that he has been reincarnating toward this point for a long time - 'whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days'.

 

We also see that Beth-lehem shall not be a part of a State of Israel 'until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth' or - he is born - the text says 'Therefore will He give them up' - so is he talking about Beth-lehem - the Hebrew people in exile [and thus Jursalem] or - both?

 

The full point is 'Therefore will He give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - so 'them' indentifies - both those in exile and - Beth-lehem.

 

So they 'shall return' to where - to an already renewed and infant State or - to just a geographical location or - both?

 

We must consider that were it not for Jesus and the Faith surronding him - Beth-lehem would certainly have become a nearly deserted and forgotten place [by the time messiah is born somewhere in the exile] and - for Hebrews it [was] is an 'obscure place' a place of 'no mention'.

 

So we have to then ask - when did Beth-lehem again become part of a State of Israel?

 

It was on June 05, 1967 - so 'He [will] give them up, until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth and - that then should indicate that - he must have to be born just prior to that event.

 

Consider 'He [will] give them up until the time that she who is to give birth has given birth' - the word 'until' is important - so they are no longer 'given up' right after he is born and - if the messiah is to [alone] accomplish all this - how would he do so - as an infant child? So the use of 'until' means that as soon as he is born - no more position of being 'given up' or seperated from the renewed State.

 

We can also add that the formal reclamation of all of Jerusalem could/would also coincide with this noted event:

 

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? Is there no King in thee, is thy Counsellor perished, that pangs have taken hold of thee as of a woman in travail? [Micah 4.9]

 

After that - there is this description in Zechariah 1.14-17:

 

...so the angel that spoke with me said unto me: 'Proclaim thou, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil. Therefore thus saith the LORD: I return to Jerusalem with compassions: My house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth over Jerusalem. Again, proclaim, saying: Thus saith the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

 

So that part - 'I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy; and I am very sore displeased with the nations that are at ease; for I was but a little displeased, and they helped for evil.' - that means that God is angry at the nations of the world for it's treatment of His exiled because He was 'but a little displeased' and yet the nations after the exile were to have 'helped for evil' [or helped forward the afflications] and they were 'at ease' with doing so - thus God says 'I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy' - so when we see fruition of the Micah 5.1-2 events we see that God permits all of Jerusalem to be again under an Israeli State.

 

The State of Israel was first reclaimed after WWII - after the well known last general pogrom [directly under the Nazis and other's indirectly] came to an end - as noted in that quote God thinks that the world could have done more to prevent so much loss and instead they were 'at ease' with the Nazis - for too long - and God sanctioned this renewal - but - with this renewed State - there was a line as it were through [dividing] Jerusalem - until 1967.

 

It should be mentioned that many propagandists have taken Zechariah 14.2 - 'For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, but the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.' - to mean that there shall be a future war there and 'the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city' - but this not so - as that was fulfilled in 30 C.E. - with the Exile - it should be noted that Muslim rulers later allowed the reestablishment of a Jewish community in Jerusalem thus 'the residue of the people [that] shall not be cut off from the city' means that even after the exile the people were being enabled by God - for a return to a former status as a State or - the end of the Exile!

 

In text 3-4 we read that sometime after the exile comes "The Day of the Lord" - we note this point in texts three and four:

 

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fighteth in the day of battle. And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, so that there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So God indeed left mercy and an open door through this 'residue of the people [that] shall not be cut off from the city' - so that means that at some point [after the 30 C.E. exile] - the residue of the exile again comes to Jerusalem.

 

Additionally - if the world ends up in a sorry state over this point - there may well come this 'vist' - that produces a mountain dividing earthquake - so - in text 7 we read - And there shall be one day which shall be known as the LORD'S, not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light. - of course we 'everyone' have choices - that impact everything.

 

So to the point again - there must have been a State of Israel - already in existence and intended by God - before the time of his birth - as noted by 'then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - it means that there is a State for him and his family and 'the children of Israel' to return to.

 

So yes these are my humble interpretations but - it could well be that he is already here - what aspects of the future of the State of Israel [and the world] are to be impacted by his appearance - is another discussion.

 

One thing is sure - whenever it is that he is born - there must have been a State of Israel - already in existence and intended by God [with a securing of Beth-lehem and [all of] Jerusalem with the timing of his birth] - before the time of his birth - as noted by 'then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel' - it means that there is already a State for him and 'the residue of his family' and 'the children of Israel' to return to.

 

We can see within this last quote [and through the other's so far] that there is a clear allusion to an exisiting Jerusalem and State - to the seeming surprise of God [and the remant of the people who later begin to return] some time before messiah is born - further - we've seen that God is to show-up in anger - which is noted as being - directed toward the nations - for their helping forward the afflictions of His exiled - when He was 'only a little displeased' - so - at the end of the last and worst pogrom [nazi] God indeed 'showed up' to reclaim Jerusalem and - as expected and 'planned' - He was 'surprised' to see some of His exiled - already there and - because He was sore displeased with the nations - for their 'at ease' adventures in the continual pogroms - He was pleased with finding some remant of His exiled there and He thus began the process - for messiah to be born and - coinciding it with the removal of the dividing-line through Jerusalem:

 

And the word of the LORD of hosts came, saying: 'Thus saith the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great fury. Thus saith the LORD: I return unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; and Jerusalem shall be called The city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts The holy mountain. Thus saith the LORD of hosts: There shall yet old men and old women sit in the broad places of Jerusalem, every man with his staff in his hand for very age. And the broad places of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the broad places thereof. Thus saith the LORD of hosts: If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvellous in Mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. [Zechariah 8.1-6]

 

So later - when the House of The Lord is reestablished by the Lord [and ONLY by the direct efforts of messiah not just the State itself can do this - and it musn't be through violence] - we note this point:

 

Take with you words, and return unto the LORD; say unto Him: 'Forgive all iniquity, and accept that which is good; so will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips. [Hosea 14.3]

 

One sad part of this is that messsiah's appearance shall be marked with spurious claims by others - that he is the anti-christ/al-dajjal.

 

I guess that's good for now...i might edit more info in later today - but I think that the point there is clear - the State of Israel doesn't stand in defiance of Torah nor the Will of God.

 

p.s.: all of this isn't at all odd from a vedic perspecive.

 

It should be noted that in this current conflict with Lebanon - there are going to be some evangelicals [and others] twisting scriptures and the conflict - to further-on their false teachings - of an end times showdown between Jesus [who ain't the messiah] and [a fictional] anti-christ.

 

In the book of Habakkuk there are messianic prophesies but - we often see texts taken out of context - here is an example they might forward - because they [and the Islamists calculate these things too] want to hasten a war in the middle east - as they want to see 'all nations march on Jerusalem' in a 'final' war - where the only Jews to survive are those that convert!

 

So in chapter two of Habakkuk - we read:

 

Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity! Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity? For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. [texts 12-14]

 

 

For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee, and the destruction of the beasts, which made them afraid; because of men's blood, and for the violence done to the land, to the city and to all that dwell therein. [text 17]

 

So it is easy to see how a misapplication of those texts could be lifted onto this current conflict?

 

Such propagandists often point to - 'For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.' - as confirmation of [their version of] messianic connections in this chapter - by saying that the gospel of Christ is being preaching in all nations - so - why should that be any fulfilment of a so-called propehesy here? To say - the knowledge of the glory of the LORD - isn't the same as - the knowledge of the LORD - these are not mutually exclusive points.

 

It should be noted that these texts were originally directed at ancient Jerusalem [and others] - for sins [that our world suffers from as well] it is clear that these were later 'fulfilled' in the exiles of 586 B.C.E. under Babylon and in 30 C.E. - under Rome.

 

These prophesies were in regard to the loss of Jerusalem and - that was seen - as predicted - first under Babylon and thus the first Exile in 586 B.C.E. and - later - at a predicted "Day of the Lord" - which happened in 30 C.E. under Rome - it's not an event - yet in the future. Of course - "The Day of the Lord's Wrath" - may happen at any time - when things are out of control and - it certainly hasn't been limited to Israel in its exercise and yes - it may be that God shall make a judgement again on the world - these are the possibilites created by us and the - language of these texts - which speak of the Day of Judgement and apocalypse are there - as a standing warning - to the whole world of the result of too much sin and rebellion.

 

So - when they bring their propaganda dogma together - they'll [eventually] say that - 'to establish Jerusalem' the Jews [who now await their human messiah who is being defamed by these propaganda-makers as being the anti-christ/al-dajjal] are doing so outside the direction of God and - 'with violence' and - 'by cutting off many peoples' [the Palestinians they'll say] - and that the 'true gospel of messiah' being preached in all the world is the 'sign' of the 'end times' and the so-called second coming of Jesus.

 

They may now think to ill interpolate these texts - saying - 'for it is written - here are the further signs of validity and immanence: "For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee"'.

 

Just see with today's current events - Jerusalem and now - this Lebanon conflict!

 

So in-fact the text's saying - is it not of the LORD of hosts that the peoples labour for the fire, and the nations weary themselves for vanity - 'For the violence done to Lebanon shall cover thee' - actually refers to the cutting of the forests of ancient Lebanon - for building big palaces by various ancient conquerors! It also refers to excessive hunting in these forests - by the same conquerors.

 

In-fact in these following texts [9-11] we see an interesting point - "Woe to him that gaineth evil gains for his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it."

 

What is that last point? ' For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it' - that actually refers to souls being cursed by God to be encaged 'within stones and timber' [for the noted building of any town with blood] - yup it's 'a form' taken though rebirth!

 

So what many practical things can we know from these texts?

 

We know that prophetically these texts have nothing to do with today's conflicts. We know that they aren't messianic texts.

 

It should be noted that most of the texts within the prophesies [that they quote] that note 'the day of the Lord' - well - these were a prediction of the last destruction of Israel and the Exile - these have been fullfilled in 30 C.E. under Rome and - one can say that with that last Exile - the people who were sincere - took the Torah with them and indeed - the earth was filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. - also - that is a point speaking directly to 'the act of the Lord in doing these things' a 'judgement' - that the nations witnessing this would know thus His glory and - it would lead to the earth being filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. - so it's a homeletical point about God's reputation and - the other nations knowing this act of 'judgement' of His - however - with that - we musn't forget that He was 'but a little displeased with them' and - the nations later [against His will] 'helped forward the afflictions of His exiled' [culminating in the nazi pogroms] - and the nations were at ease with that!

 

Of course there are practical things to be learned from those texts - no matter who and when we are....

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

No response Don, I was just reporting news my man...

 

Well you don't have any thoughts on the points I've raised?

 

Your news quote was advancing that the modern state of Israel - is not in accordance with the Torah nor the plan of God to bring a formal end to the Exile and to at some point - reestablish His Temple.

 

I don't like to see arguments against modern Israel advanced on the basis that there are these Neturei Karta followers who have their noted opinions - though I'm not saying that that is the purpose you've posted it for.

 

Of course - as within any grouping of schools of thought and individuals - we are going to see diversity of opinions on many points - that is universal - so then - in that sense - we have to acknowledge that these noted Neturei Karta followers - may have it wrong.

 

In the same manner that we now have the Rtvik issue in our midst - both sides [a.k.a - living guru advocates and the rtviks] both have their [seemingly] plausible quotes and arguments - it may be very difficult for those not very conversant with the whole issue - to make a value judgement over which side is correct or - to which side to listen to - as it were.

 

In the same way - we can see that this issue with Neturei Karta and mainstream Judaism - can be rather complex.

 

The same is true of all faith groups - 'orthodox' evangelicals are on the outside of the mainsteam interpretations of scriptures - so too are the 'orthodox' Islamists - thus we can see that at times the practical reality of 'orthodox' - can result in an impractical reality of 'paradox'.

 

One must try to understand all positions - to better understand the best position - the correct position [it's taught in all the major scriptures] - I'm sure it was for that reason you posted the news story.

 

YS,

[jijaji]

Honestly Don,

 

I just am playing reporter....

 

and thought it was an interesting story that's all

 

namaskar

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Honestly Don,

 

I just am playing reporter....

 

and thought it was an interesting story that's all

 

namaskar

 

Yes that is what I thought [and I'm pleased you did post it because it gave me a chance to present my noted points] - so what do you think of my points?

 

Hari Bolo!

[jijaji]

Don-

 

If I am interested in responding I will Ok..

 

namaskar

[jijaji]

Don,

 

Actually I shouldn't be so mute as you took a great deal of time with your response...but I didn't write the article, however I understand your being passionate about the issue for sure.

 

Sorry if I'm not doing a point for point with ya, but this shows the bottom line in the here now I think...

 

 

PEACE NOW

[jijaji]

I'm sorry but I am passionate about this too and see this whole stinking thing as complete EVIL and ZIONIST PROPAGANDA backed by the biggest fruitcake on planet earth...BUSH

 

Israel is very very wrong in what the hell they are doing...

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I'm sorry but I am passionate about this too and see this whole stinking thing as complete EVIL and ZIONIST PROPAGANDA backed by the biggest fruitcake on planet earth...BUSH

 

Israel is very very wrong in what the hell they are doing...

 

 

 

Then respectfully - you missed my point.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

evangelistic = electing Siva

 

A neat anagram!

[Guest guest]

 

I'm sorry but I am passionate about this too and see this whole stinking thing as complete EVIL and ZIONIST PROPAGANDA backed by the biggest fruitcake on planet earth...BUSH

 

Israel is very very wrong in what the hell they are doing...

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Sastra-caksusa. You must see through the sastra, not with these eyes. According to Judeo-Christian scriptures, it is clearly said, "Thou shalt not kill." Nonetheless, giving all kinds of excuses, even the heads of religions indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons. This mockery and hypocrisy in human society bring about unlimited calamities; therefore occasionally there are great wars. Masses of such people go out onto battlefields and kill themselves. Presently they have discovered the atomic bomb, which is simply awaiting wholesale destruction. If people want to be saved from the killing business life after life, they must take to Krsna consciousness and cease sinful activity."