taking to the path of j~nana on becomes an atheist

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I happened to tune in to the Sanskar channel on the Tv accidently.

 

There was a kathAkaar who was delivering a discourse on Srimad

Bhagavatam.

 

He passed a comment. "Only bhakti marga leads one to salvation,

j~nana marga makes one an atheist. So j~nana marga should be avoided"

 

I only laughed at this. But the thoughts that came up were:

 

This kathAkAr with such a huge following has become a pUrvapaxin.

May be he is saying this out of fear of losing his following, fame,

name and wealth?

 

He must be an informed person in the shAstras, otherwise he would not

have been such a popular kathAkAr.

 

If, he happened to teach Vedanta, there will be hardly 20 people

sitting in front him.

 

Can a person take to j~nana marga, if he/she does not have any

shraddhA and bhakti in his heart?

 

Any comments on this please!

 

om namo narayanaya

 

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

[Guest guest]

lakmuthu <lakmuthu > wrote: Namaste,

I happened to tune in to the Sanskar channel on the Tv accidently.

There was a kathAkaar who was delivering a discourse on Srimad

Bhagavatam.

He passed a comment. "Only bhakti marga leads one to salvation,

j~nana marga makes one an atheist. So j~nana marga should be avoided"

From

Sankarraman

Respected Madam,

Some people, like the one quoted, are averse to jnana marga, branding those who follow that path as infidels. What has been quoted only indicates the lopsidedness of understanding of the individual. Why the above teacher, even the followers of qualified monism are averse to jnana. Jnana, which destroys the individuality, root and branch, how can it presuppose the idea of atheism, a school of thought which does not believe in anything beyond the material process. Jnana, which traces all existence to pure consciousness, alone constitutes the highest truth, all other world-views falling short of this. Some people confound bakthi to be an ordinary emotion, their relationship towards the Maker being one of externalization. Such people have only a poor understanding of jnana. Still, there are some others who hold the idea that Jnana should be taken only in advanced stages of understanding, which proposition also seems to

be wrong. There is this account of Bhaghavan having taught self-enquiry to some rustics. Kavyakhada Ganapthi was nonplussed by this, saying as to how could these people of lower evolution understand. When Bhaghavan came to know of it, he said that the villagers were at least free from intellectual accretions; so that jnana which does not consist in knowing anything afresh should be easier for those people than the pundits filled with all the libraries in their mind. Be that as it may, the view of the kathakkar is very superficial, and can hardly unsettle the mind of any one seriously involved in enquiry.

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

After reading this thread , i am reminded of the following Kriti of

Saint Thyagaraja which i reproduce below for your benefit .

Incidentally my mom sang this song when my dad ( her groom) came to

see my mom as part of the 'penn parkira' ( bride choosing) ritual!

 

Here it goes

 

Vinataa Suta Vaahana Sri Ramanaa!

 

Manasaaraga Sevincheda Raamaa!

 

(Lord! Mounted ("vahana") on GARUDA, son ("suta") of VINATA, what a

grand spectacle you present! Let me prostrate ("sevincheda") before

you again and again to my heart's ("manasaaraga") content. )

 

 

Anupallavi:

 

Vinu Saareku Judani Bratukela

 

Manujula Nechedu Jivanamela

 

(What ("ela") is life ("brataku") worth if one is not looking

("judani") at you everyday? Is not your darshana the sole remedy for

all the ills of the world ? Where is the need for that kind of

worthless life ("jivana") which involves cruelty ("Necheda") to

others ("manujula")?

 

 

Charanam:

 

Mata Bhedamane Sakanaarcchaga Sammata

 

Vaakkulu Balkuta Sukhamaa?

 

Kshitilo Satsangati Saukhyamu Paalita

 

Tyaagaraja! Amara Pujitha!

 

*( What is the use of indulging in fruitless arguments with

*confirmed atheists and non-believers ? *Their company should be

avoided scrupulously. Only association with the pious and righteous

will lead to happiness. O Protector of Devas! ) *

 

http://www.karnatik.com/c2937.shtml In order to show

 

http://www.ecse.rpledu/homepages/shivkumar/music/vinatasuta,htm

 

now, my real name is 'Vinatha ' - dhyanasaraswati etc are my

ids only ! my sister's name is Anjana - Hanuman's mother's name !

so, bhakta's bhakta ! what an 'exalted' status ! That is why IN

SATSANGATI , I ALWAYS PRAISE Lord vishnu !

,

now, the point is this - it does not matter how many people sit in a

congregation to hear a discourse ! 20 0r 200 ? AS long as one is

sitting with the 'Truth' , even one person is satsangati ! When i

sit in front of sri Ramana bhagvan's PICTUTRE OR CONTEMPLATE ON HIS

TEACHINGS , I FEEL LIKE I AM IN THE COMPANY OF MULTITUDES ! SUCH IS

THE POWER OF SRI RAMANA'S SILENT SATSANGHA !

 

SANKARARAMAN JI IS RIGHT !

 

( knowing anything afresh should be easier for those people than

the pundits filled with all the libraries in their mind.)

 

In buddhism, THERE IS A PHRASE WHICH SAYS 'EMPTY YOUR CUP ' !

 

MAY I BE PLEASE ALLOWED TO QUOTE THE FOLLOWING WORDS OF SUFI SAINT

JALALUDDINN RUMI ?

 

*Intellect is good and desirable to the extent it brings you to the

King's door. Once you have reached His door, then divorce the

intellect! From this time on, the intellect will be to your loss and

a brigand. When you reach Him, entrust yourself to Him! You have no

business with the how and the wherefore. Know that the intellect's

cleverness all belongs to the vestibule. Even if it possesses the

knowledge of Plato, it is still outside of the palace. *

 

Author :

Jalalu'l-Din Rumi

Book Reference :

The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi, p. 222

Comments :

translated by William Chittick

 

WHAT IS THIS OBSESSION WITH A GREAT FOLLOWING OR EMINENCE ? sRI

ramana bhagwan did not have a great following in his days - only in

recent times , he has acquired international recognition. But, he

is one of the greatest 'jnanis' for all times to come !

 

Read the following kabir Doha : ( two lined verse)

 

Bada Hua To Kya Hua, Jaise Ped Khajoor

Panthi Ko Chaya Nahin, Phal Laage Atidoor

 

In vain is the eminence, just like a date tree

No shade for travelers, fruit is hard to reach

 

 

A date tree grows very tall, projecting eminence and a distinction

of its own. Yet, it does not provide shade to weary travelers.

Besides, it's fruit grows so far that one cannot easily pluck it.

 

Using this simile, Kabir in this doha points out to us about our

vain personalities. What good is our so called eminence, if it is

neither compassionate nor helpful to others? Kabir emphasizes that

we should shed our greed, selfishness and insecure tendencies and

establish ourselves in such a way that we should be willing to give

and share. Only then we will be blessed and become a blessing to

others.

 

– Rajender Krishan

 

(http://www. boloji.com/kabir/dohas/kd7.htm

 

i dont think we should even pose such questions as Jnana Versus

bhakti ? One who is a jnani is also a bhakta and vice versa .

 

Adi shnakara , the great bhakta -jnani. says in Shatpadi stotra

 

"Oh! Protector! Even with the difference (between You and me)

passing off, I become Yours but You do not become mine. Indeed

(though there is no difference between the waves and the ocean) the

wave belongs to the ocean but nowhere (never) does the ocean belong

to the wave. "

 

YES !

 

LISTEN, O DROP, GIVE YOURSELF UP

 

Listen, O drop, give yourself up without regret,

and in exchange gain the Ocean.

Listen, O drop, bestow upon yourself this honor,

and in the arms of the Sea be secure.

Who indeed should be so fortunate?

An Ocean wooing a drop!

In God's name, in God's name, sell and buy at once!

Give a drop, and take this Sea full of pearls.

 

Mathnawi, IV: 2619-2622

Rumi: Jewels of Remembrance

trans. Camille and Kabir Helminski

Threshold Books, 1996

 

ENJOY !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran

wrote:

>

>

>

> lakmuthu <lakmuthu

raman

>

> Respected Madam,

> Some people, like

the one quoted, are averse to jnana marga, branding those who

follow that path as infidels. What has been quoted only indicates

the lopsidedness of understanding of the individual. Why the above

teacher, even the followers of qualified monism are averse to

jnana.

[Guest guest]

lakmuthu <lakmuthu > wrote: Namaste,

I happened to tune in to the Sanskar channel on the Tv accidently.

There was a kathAkaar who was delivering a discourse on Srimad

Bhagavatam.

He passed a comment. "Only bhakti marga leads one to salvation,

j~nana marga makes one an atheist. So j~nana marga should be avoided.

From

Sankarraman

Madam,

In this conncetion, may I quote a thevaram of saint Appar to highlight the position that the great devotees are not averse to jnana unlike the individual quoted by you. The following is the verse:

"Jnathal thozhuvar sila jnanigal.

Jnanthal thozhuvenen unai nanalen

Jnanathal thozhuvar thozhakkandu

Jnathal unai nanum thozhuven"

" Some jnanis adore and worship Thee through Jnana

I am not given to this worship through Jnana

But seeing the great Jnanis worshipping Thee through Jnana

Let me also worship Thee through Jnana"

The above verse should not be construed to mean that the great saint did not know the path of Jnana. But by virtue of his great humility, he considered himself not on par with the Lord. There are many outpourings in the famous Tiruvachakam of saint Manickkavachagar, which abound in Jnana. In fact, the very first chapter Sivapuranam is a commentary on the final gnosis. Take the case of saint Thayumanavar, whom Bhaghavan Ramana was very fond of quoting. He has given the highest wisdom of non-duality through the language of devotion, a very rare thing. Further, the outpourings of the great Tamil saints like Pattinathar, Bhathrigiriyar and saint Ramalingar are replete with jnana. Sankaracharya also has defined devotion as being in contact with one's swarupa unbrokenly.

yours sincerely,

Sankarraman

 

..

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Sanakararamanji,

Thanks for your reply.

I do not have much of an exposure to Tamizh spiritual books, other than reading the life of the 63 Nayanars by Swami Shivananda on the internet. My knowledge of Tamizh is very limited. Since I studied in Bangalore, I did not get myself exposed to Tamizh Literature. I am beginning to appreciate now that there is so much to learn from Tamizh too.

This is giving a great insight. Thank you very much for the same.

This is the plight of all public school educted and christian college educated people. Mastery is not gained in any langauge. Neither mother tongue nor the local language.

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

See the all-new, redesigned .com. Check it out.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "lakmuthu" <lakmuthu wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> I happened to tune in to the Sanskar channel on the Tv accidently.

>

> There was a kathAkaar who was delivering a discourse on Srimad

> Bhagavatam.

>

> He passed a comment. "Only bhakti marga leads one to salvation,

> j~nana marga makes one an atheist. So j~nana marga should be avoided"

 

Namaste,All,

 

Actually this is true to a certain extent. For if one is a true Jnani

one would realise there is no Isvara, Saguna Brahman, therefore by

common definition one is an atheist for rising above it all.

 

Nirguna cannot be described by definition. So I look forward to the

day that I am an A-Theist or a Jivanmukta.............ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

wrote:

 

>

> I do not have much of an exposure to Tamizh spiritual books,

other than reading the life of the 63 Nayanars by Swami Shivananda

on the internet. My knowledge of Tamizh is very limited. Since I

studied in Bangalore, I did not get myself exposed to Tamizh

Literature. I am beginning to appreciate now that there is so much

to learn from Tamizh too.

 

 

Namaste Lakshmi-ji and all,

 

Your remark about Tamil spiritual literature prompts me to write

this brief note.

 

The history of religious devotion and devotional poetry in the

Tamil region is closely linked with the 75 Gems of Spirituality

most of whom came from the Tamil country. These are the twelve

Vaishnava Alvars and the sixty-three Saiva Nayanmars. They were all

apostles of God-intoxication. The last of them lived in the 9th

century C.E.

 

For all these, religion was a poignant human experience of

togetherness with either Lord Vishnu (in the first case) or Lord

Siva (in the second case). Some of them were superlatively gifted

singers as well. They left behind them an imperishable legacy of

devotional poetry rarely parallelled in quantity or quality before

or after. They revered the Vedic texts, knew the principal Puranas,

avocated the recitation of God's varied names, strongly recommended

meditation on His different forms and the Mantras associated with

Him and literally lived by worshipping Him in the temples all over

the land of the Tamils. They gave expression to the purest love of

God and are most reverently recited in all Hindu temples that have a

Tamil origin and by all Tamil Hindu families who believe in worship

as an important daily routine.

 

In addition the literary value of all this poetry is great as is

shown by the fact that this massive collection of 20000 verses (4000

Vaishnava hymns and 16000 Saiva hymns) outweighs all other

literature produced during this period so much that historians of

Tamil literature have taken the liberty of designating this period

(6th to 10th century C.E.) the age of Devotional Literature.

 

Further, the content of all this attractive poetry, which is at the

same time impassioned and philosophical, cuts across all barriers of

caste and class, and therefore attracts one and all to the faith.

This Bhakti literature has in no small measure contributed to the

establishment and sustenance of a culture that broke away from the

ritual-oriented Vedic and elitistic religion and transformed it into

a religion of the masses rooted in Devotion as the only path for

salvation. In addition they helped to make Tamil religious life

independent of a knowledge of Sanskrit.

 

This resurgence of Bhakti came in such a massive way that it may be

compared to the Renaissance of the sixteenth century in Europe. It

challenged the orthodoxy in its strongest sphere, namely the

cognitive, by demystifying the myths associated with the rigidities

of caste system, domination of priestly hierarchy and mindless

proliferation of rituals.

 

While north India produced remarkable Saints who wrote poetry and

sang devotional music like Mirabai, Kabir and Surdas, they were not

immortalised in art or worshipped in temples. Saints of the western

world are frequently portrayed in art, but their presence in

churches and cathedrals does not seem to be universal . By contrast,

icons of these 12 Vaishnava and 63 Saiva south Indian saints were

invariably commissioned by the Vishnu and Siva temples respectively.

They were placed in prominent positions and were accorded ritual

worship. To this day these saints remain a living tradition. Their

images are carried in processions during festivals along with the

main deities of the temples. Sometimes there are festivals

exclusively for them. Their hymns are chanted in homes and at a

variety of ceremonial gatherings including secular performances of

dance and music.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Well said, Professor-ji !

 

i don't want to sound 'parochial' but wherver and whenever Someone

praises 'Tamizh mozhi; and Tamizh saints, i become ecstatic ! Thai

anbaiyaii sollava , thai natru patruvai paratuvada or Thai mozhiyai

pughavada? How can i sing the glories of my mother . motherland and

mother language ? it is beyond description!

 

As the great National poet Bharatiyaar says in Tamizh

 

yaam arindha mozhigaLilae tamizhaipol

indhaavadhu engum kaaNom

 

 

Of all the languages known, tamizh is the sweetest !

 

Mahakavi Bharatiyaar himself has composed many bhakti poems on Lord

Krishna and Devi shakti!

 

even to this day, i take great delight in singing Aandaal's

Thirupugazh iand i love to listen to k.B. sUNDARAMBAALS' devotional

rendering of Avvaiyaar's compositions .

 

There is something beautiful about the bhava of Bhakti ! I DO NOT

KNOW tELEGU but i still love to listen to KRITIS OF SHYAMA SHASTRI,

THYAGARAJA and Annamacharya ! Not to mention sri Muthuswamy

dikshitir - i love his compositions in samskritam! Music is like

Poetry - one has t have an 'ear' for it!

 

what about PURANDARA DASA OF KARNATAKA ? His devotional bhajans are

popular in all sankirtans !

 

The point is Language is a tool of communication ! but even if one

is not familiar with the language , one can always appreciate the

bhakti bhava in a song ! if you know the language, it is a double

delight !

 

it is for this reason, i am able to enjoy all the tranlations of

Tukaram's Abhangs , Jnanadeva's Amritnubhava, Lal dev's vaks,

Akkamadevi's vachanas on her Mallikarjuna, Ghalib's urdu shayar, ibn

arabi's poems , kabir's dohas in hindi etc etc etc...

 

How much more wonderful would it be if we could speak and understand

all the languages ! Then we can apprecisate the bhakti literature of

all languages ! But we are all fortunate we have English

translations , however imperfect it may be!

 

There is one language that everyone understands - that is the

language of Love ( bhakti or devotion)

 

ibn arabi

 

MY heart has become capable of every form: it is a pasture for

gazelles and a convent for Christian monks.

And a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Ka`bah and the tables of the

Torah and the book of the Qur'an.

I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take, that

is my religion and my faith.

 

la-qad sarat qalbi qabila kulla surah

fa-mar`an li-ghizlanin wa-dayrun li-ruhban

wa-baytun li-awthanin wa-ka`batu ta'if

wa-alwahu tawratin wa-mus.hafu qur'an

adinu bi-dini l-hubbi annani tawajjahat

raka'ibuhu fa al-dinu dini wa-iman

 

thank you professorji ! The path of bhakti is the path of mukthi!

[Guest guest]

Bhakti is to me the most beautiful flower in this existence I know

of. The best protector and the unfailing Power. The strength and the

nobility. Exalted form of love. Intoxicating. I don´t know which

path is best or even if there is a best path but Bhakti is to me

very beaufitul.

Pranams

Frederico

 

advaitin, "dhyanasaraswati"

<dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> Well said, Professor-ji !

>

> i don't want to sound 'parochial' but wherver and whenever Someone

> praises 'Tamizh mozhi; and Tamizh saints, i become ecstatic ! Thai

> anbaiyaii sollava , thai natru patruvai paratuvada or Thai

mozhiyai

> pughavada? How can i sing the glories of my mother . motherland

and

> mother language ? it is beyond description!

>

> As the great National poet Bharatiyaar says in Tamizh

>

> yaam arindha mozhigaLilae tamizhaipol

> indhaavadhu engum kaaNom

>

>

> Of all the languages known, tamizh is the sweetest !

>

> Mahakavi Bharatiyaar himself has composed many bhakti poems on

Lord

> Krishna and Devi shakti!

>

> even to this day, i take great delight in singing Aandaal's

> Thirupugazh iand i love to listen to k.B. sUNDARAMBAALS'

devotional

> rendering of Avvaiyaar's compositions .

>

> There is something beautiful about the bhava of Bhakti ! I DO NOT

> KNOW tELEGU but i still love to listen to KRITIS OF SHYAMA

SHASTRI,

> THYAGARAJA and Annamacharya ! Not to mention sri Muthuswamy

> dikshitir - i love his compositions in samskritam! Music is like

> Poetry - one has t have an 'ear' for it!

>

> what about PURANDARA DASA OF KARNATAKA ? His devotional bhajans

are

> popular in all sankirtans !

>

> The point is Language is a tool of communication ! but even if one

> is not familiar with the language , one can always appreciate the

> bhakti bhava in a song ! if you know the language, it is a double

> delight !

>

> it is for this reason, i am able to enjoy all the tranlations of

> Tukaram's Abhangs , Jnanadeva's Amritnubhava, Lal dev's vaks,

> Akkamadevi's vachanas on her Mallikarjuna, Ghalib's urdu shayar,

ibn

> arabi's poems , kabir's dohas in hindi etc etc etc...

>

> How much more wonderful would it be if we could speak and

understand

> all the languages ! Then we can apprecisate the bhakti literature

of

> all languages ! But we are all fortunate we have English

> translations , however imperfect it may be!

>

> There is one language that everyone understands - that is the

> language of Love ( bhakti or devotion)

>

> ibn arabi

>

> MY heart has become capable of every form: it is a pasture for

> gazelles and a convent for Christian monks.

> And a temple for idols and the pilgrim's Ka`bah and the tables of

the

> Torah and the book of the Qur'an.

> I follow the religion of Love: whatever way Love's camels take,

that

> is my religion and my faith.

>

> la-qad sarat qalbi qabila kulla surah

> fa-mar`an li-ghizlanin wa-dayrun li-ruhban

> wa-baytun li-awthanin wa-ka`batu ta'if

> wa-alwahu tawratin wa-mus.hafu qur'an

> adinu bi-dini l-hubbi annani tawajjahat

> raka'ibuhu fa al-dinu dini wa-iman

>

> thank you professorji ! The path of bhakti is the path of mukthi!

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Prof. Krishnamurthy-Ji,

 

Thank you for a very informative post. Being from Punjab, I had more

exposure to Kabir, Surdas, Mirabai, Kalidas, Guru Nanak, and other poet

saints of North India but have known of the Tamil saints from the

popular literature. As many people know, when Sri Ramana was a young boy

(before his Realization), he was deeply influenced by Periapurnam and

the description of the devotion of the Saivite saints. Later, when he

would read these stories to the devotees, he was sometimes unable to

continue due to welling up of emotion.

 

I found your post to be a good comparative summary and if you don't mind

would like to quickly blog it to the HS blog (it only takes a few

minutes) starting with the second paragraph, "The history of religious

devotion shows.........."

 

I actually would like to do with many of the posts I see here. Thanks

for the sharing.

 

Namaste,

Love to all

Harsha

 

V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

>

> advaitin <advaitin%40>,

> Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

> wrote:

>

> >

> > I do not have much of an exposure to Tamizh spiritual books,

> other than reading the life of the 63 Nayanars by Swami Shivananda

> on the internet. My knowledge of Tamizh is very limited. Since I

> studied in Bangalore, I did not get myself exposed to Tamizh

> Literature. I am beginning to appreciate now that there is so much

> to learn from Tamizh too.

>

> Namaste Lakshmi-ji and all,

>

> Your remark about Tamil spiritual literature prompts me to write

> this brief note.

>

> The history of religious devotion and devotional poetry in the

> Tamil region is closely linked with the 75 Gems of Spirituality

> most of whom came from the Tamil country. These are the twelve

> Vaishnava Alvars and the sixty-three Saiva Nayanmars. They were all

> apostles of God-intoxication. The last of them lived in the 9th

> century C.E.

>

> For all these, religion was a poignant human experience of

> togetherness with either Lord Vishnu (in the first case) or Lord

> Siva (in the second case). Some of them were superlatively gifted

> singers as well. They left behind them an imperishable legacy of

> devotional poetry rarely parallelled in quantity or quality before

> or after. They revered the Vedic texts, knew the principal Puranas,

> avocated the recitation of God's varied names, strongly recommended

> meditation on His different forms and the Mantras associated with

> Him and literally lived by worshipping Him in the temples all over

> the land of the Tamils. They gave expression to the purest love of

> God and are most reverently recited in all Hindu temples that have a

> Tamil origin and by all Tamil Hindu families who believe in worship

> as an important daily routine.

>

> In addition the literary value of all this poetry is great as is

> shown by the fact that this massive collection of 20000 verses (4000

> Vaishnava hymns and 16000 Saiva hymns) outweighs all other

> literature produced during this period so much that historians of

> Tamil literature have taken the liberty of designating this period

> (6th to 10th century C.E.) the age of Devotional Literature.

>

> Further, the content of all this attractive poetry, which is at the

> same time impassioned and philosophical, cuts across all barriers of

> caste and class, and therefore attracts one and all to the faith.

> This Bhakti literature has in no small measure contributed to the

> establishment and sustenance of a culture that broke away from the

> ritual-oriented Vedic and elitistic religion and transformed it into

> a religion of the masses rooted in Devotion as the only path for

> salvation. In addition they helped to make Tamil religious life

> independent of a knowledge of Sanskrit.

>

> This resurgence of Bhakti came in such a massive way that it may be

> compared to the Renaissance of the sixteenth century in Europe. It

> challenged the orthodoxy in its strongest sphere, namely the

> cognitive, by demystifying the myths associated with the rigidities

> of caste system, domination of priestly hierarchy and mindless

> proliferation of rituals.

>

> While north India produced remarkable Saints who wrote poetry and

> sang devotional music like Mirabai, Kabir and Surdas, they were not

> immortalised in art or worshipped in temples. Saints of the western

> world are frequently portrayed in art, but their presence in

> churches and cathedrals does not seem to be universal . By contrast,

> icons of these 12 Vaishnava and 63 Saiva south Indian saints were

> invariably commissioned by the Vishnu and Siva temples respectively.

> They were placed in prominent positions and were accorded ritual

> worship. To this day these saints remain a living tradition. Their

> images are carried in processions during festivals along with the

> main deities of the temples. Sometimes there are festivals

> exclusively for them. Their hymns are chanted in homes and at a

> variety of ceremonial gatherings including secular performances of

> dance and music.

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

>

>

 

 

--

[Guest guest]

Namaste Krishnamurtiji,

I offer a sAShTAnga namaskar to the KathakAr for his comment. Even a passing comment can be an instrument for learning. I have learnt about these great mahAtmas of TamizhnAdu and their contribution.

My heart wants to make a wish to learn, read and enjoy at least some of them. By the grace of Ishvara, If it has to happen in this janma, let it happen.

Another question comes up in my mind, how much can one do, in one janma? already a vAnaprastI.

bAlastAvat krIDA sakttah

tauraNastAvat taruNI sakttah

vRIddhastAvat cintA sakttah

pare btahmaNi ko.pi na sakttah

Profji thanks once again.

Bhakti literature reminds of the dialogue between Bhakti and Narada in Padma purana which is the 1st Chapter of Srimad Bhagavata Mahatmyam

Narada uvAca:

kAsi tvam kAvimau cemA nAryah kAh padma locanAH.

Vada devi savistAraM svasya duHkhasya kAraNam..

Who are you? how are these two related to you? who are these lotus eyed girls standing beside you? O worshipful Lady point out in detail the cause of your misery.

Bhakti answers;

aham bhaktirit khyAtA smau me tanayau matau.

j~nAna vairAgya nAmAnau kAlayogena jarjarau..

I am known by the name bhakti - devotion. These tow are as my sons. They are j~nana - knowldge and vairagya - dispassion, by name, and have become old and worn out by the process of time.

These two girls are Ganga and others rivers who are doing service to me. Now hear my story she says.

utpannA drAvide sAham vR^iddhim karnATakae gatA.

kvacitkvachinmahArASTre gurjare jIrNatAm gatA.

I was born in drAviDa land and attained maturity in KarnATaka. I was respected here and there in MaharAShTra, and I attained a ripe age in Gujarat.

tatra ghorakaleryogAt pAkhaNdaih khaNDitAn~NgakA.

durblAham ciraM yAtA putrAbhyAm saha mandatAm

Mutilated by the heretics, due to the arrival of the fearful age of Kali, and continuing in the state for a long time, I grew weak and developed sluggishness along with my two sons.

vR^inadAvanaM punaH prApya navIneva surUpiNI.

jAtAhaM yuvatI samyakpreShTarUpA tu sAmpratam..

Reaching vrundAvana however, I stand rejuvenated/refreshed as it were with extreme comliness. I have now become quite young again, acquiring a most lovable appearnace.

imau tu shayitavatra sutau me klishyataH shramAt.

idam sthAnaM parityajya videshaM gamyate mayA..

These two sons are lying here however due to exhaustion. Leaving this place I am now proceeding to another place.

jaraThatvam samAyAtau tena duHkhena duHkhitA.

sAhaM tu taruNI kasmAt sutau vR^iddhAvimau kutah..

My sons have attained old age: I am afflicted with agony. Though I am their mother , " why am I looking young in appearnace and they are my sons and are looking old, when they should be looking young?

tryANAm sahacAritvAt vaiparItyam kutaH stitham.

ghaTate jaraThA mAtA turuNau tanyAviti...

Although we live together, why stands this incogruity? The natural thing is that the mother should be old and the sons young.

ataH shocAmi cAtmAnam vismayAviShTamAnasA.

vada yoganidheh dhIman kAraNam ca atra kim bhavaet..

With a mind seized with wonder I deplore myself. Kind explain oh Sage a repository of yoga, what may be the cause of this?

From the above dialogue, I get to understand that Bhakti had been born in Tamilnadu. So fresh she has been in Tamilnadu, a new born, that she must have been playing around in every bodys heart - soul filling Ananda, finding an expressing through the AlvArs and NayanmArs.

so bhakti, j~nAna and vairagya go together. They have to be seen together.. So where ever bhakti is, j~nAna and vairagya also follow.

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Tony,

"Actually this is true to a certain extent. For if one is a true Jnani

one would realise there is no Isvara, Saguna Brahman, therefore by

common definition one is an atheist for rising above it all."

Nirguna cannot be described by definition. So I look forward to the

day that I am an A-Theist or a Jivanmukta.............ONS..Tony."

When one raises above all, as a jIvan muktA he will percive brahman everywhere. He sees Ishvara in all. He sees divinity everywhere. He is all Ananda. All differences are absolved.

sarvam khalu idam brahman.- How can he be an atheist?

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

 

 

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Guest guest]

--------------------------

On 31/07/06, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu > wrote:

>

> "Actually this is true to a certain extent. For if one is a true Jnani

> one would realise there is no Isvara, Saguna Brahman, therefore by

> common definition one is an atheist for rising above it all."

> Nirguna cannot be described by definition. So I look forward to the

> day that I am an A-Theist or a Jivanmukta.............ONS..Tony."

>

>

> When one raises above all, as a jIvan muktA he will percive brahman everywhere. He sees Ishvara in all. He sees divinity everywhere. He is all Ananda. All differences are absolved.

>

> sarvam khalu idam brahman.- How can he be an atheist?

>

---------------------------

 

Who is an atheist? It all depends on how you define the term.

 

If an atheist is a person who claims that matter is the only reality,

then a jIvanmukta is not an atheist.

 

However, if an atheist is one who rejects the idea that there is a

"God" who is separate from the jIva and who is/should be an object of

worship, then the jIvanmukta is certainly an atheist.

 

A bhakta (or some bhakta-s) might feel that an advaitin is an atheist

because even ISvara is sublated at the paramArtha level.

 

Ramesh

[Guest guest]

dear Satsanghis :

 

This morning it gives me great pleasure to bring to you the

following verse from Srimad Bhagavad Gita .

 

 

yoginam api sarvesam

mad-gatenantar-atmana

sraddhavan bhajate yo mam

sa me yuktatamo matah ( ch 6 text 47)

 

 

 

Of all yogis, he, who abides in me, thinks of me within his inner

self in full faith, and worships me, is considered by me the most

accomplished of all yogis.

 

You need to read this verse along with the previous verse in the

same chapter

 

tapasvibhyo 'dhiko yogi

jnanibhyo 'pi mato 'dhikah

karmibhyas cadhiko yogi

tasmad yogi bhavarjuna ( ch 6 verse 46)

 

Here Lord Krishna mentions that a true yogi is superior to the

ritualists who perform sacrifices, the yogis who practice

austerities, and the yogis who are well versed in Vedic studies.

In these two verses , Bhagwan Krishna recommends *Pure Bhakti* as

the best path ! Shuddha bhakti - Love of God for love's sake not for

any selfish motives such as health, wealth , progeny etc

etc .....Such a bhakta does not even ask for liberation! IN THIS

CONTEXT , ONE RECALLS THE PURE AND UNALLOYED DEVOTION OF kUNTI

DEVI !

 

Adi Shankara bhagvadapada says in BHAJA GOVINDAM STOTRA

 

geyam gItA nAmasahasram dhyeyam shripatirUpamajasram

neyam sajjanasange cittam deyam dInajanAya ca vittam ||

 

Recite the Bhagavad Gita; chant the Vishnu Sahsra NAma stotra;

meditate on the form of Shripati (Vishnu) within your heart; let the

mind rejoice in the company of saints; donate your wealth to the

poor.

 

on another note , the home page has quoted some beautiful verses

from Srimad Bhagvat Gita ON 'DIVYA CHAKSHU' - DIVINE EYES !

 

EMINENT SAINTS LIKE SURDAS who were born blind , how did they see

the beauty and glory of God ? obviously , since they are blind they

cannot read or write but they saw the inner light of god in their

heart of hearts through devotion!

 

Reads the following bhajan of Sudas

 

Subse unchi prem sagai --

 

Love is the greatest UNION

 

1. Duryodhan ka meva tyago

Saag vidur ghar khai

subse...

 

LORD kRISHNA DECLINED THE ROYAL FEAST OFFERED BY dURYIDHANA INSTEAD

SETTLED DOWN FOR THE SIMPLE SPINACH OFFERED BY VIDHUR

 

SUCH IS THE POWER OF LOVE OR DEVOTION T

 

2. Juthe phal shabri ke khaye

Bahu vidhi prem lagai

subse...

 

Lord Rama ate the fruoits offered by the hill woman sabari who

tasted the fruits before offering to the lord . THE LORD WAS PLEASED

WITH HER TRUE DEVOTION.

 

3. Prem ke bas Arjun rath haakyo

Bhool gaye thakuraai

subse...

 

LORD kRISHNA EVEN OFFERED TO BE aRJUNA'S CHARIOTEER FORGETTING HE IS

THE LORD OF ALL ! for Arjuna was a true devotee !

 

 

4. Aisee preet badhi Vrindavan

Gopin naach nachai

subse...

 

THE LORD FOUND SO MUCH LOVE IN THE HEART OF GOPIS THAT HE DANCED TO

THEIR TUNE !

 

 

5. Sur krur is laayak naahi

Kahal tu kare badhai

subse...

 

SURDAS LAMENTS THAT HE IS NOT QUALIFIED TO THANK THE SUPREME LORD

WHO IS THE GREATEST OF ALL

 

Vaasudevam sarvam iti!

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

This discussion about jnAna versus bhakti comes up again and again

on this list. But it is worthwhile to recall things said earlier in

this connection.

 

That JnAna and Bhakti are only the same in their ultimate

expressions comes out clear from Gita XVIII – 55 onwards. In

Shrimad BhagavataM Sage Kapila elaborately discusses this (III –

Ch.28 and 29) and classifies bhakti as saguna and nirguna.

 

"The blazing fire is different from the flames, from the sparks and

from the smoke, although all arise from the same blazing wood. So

also the Self known as the Seer, bhagavan or brahman is distinct

from the senses or the mind ( Ch.28 --40,41). As fire shows up in

different forms because of the shapes of wood in which it burns so

also does the Self show up in prakRRiti in different manifestations

according to the guNas (#43). The yogI therefore stands firm in his

own svarUpa of the Self, by conquering the prakRRiti which hides his

own Self and which takes the form of both cause and effect(#44)."

 

Following this the sage Kapila answers questions of Devahuti

regarding the path of Bhakti which will lead to the Realisation of

all that has been explained in terms of PrakRRiti and Purushha.

Bhakti, says Kapila, "is known in terms of nine categories by the

motivation which manifests it. The motivation could be – in the

ascending order of commendability (III – 29 – 8,9, 10):

 

Violent ends (This is adhama-tAmasa bhakti)

Pride (This is madhyama-tAmasa bhakti)

Jealousy (uttama-tAmasa bhakti )

Sensual ends (adhama-rAjasa bhakti)

Wealth (madhyama-rAjasa bhakti)

Fame (uttama-rAjasa bhakti)

Eradication of Sins (adhama-sAtvika bhakti)

Pleasure of the Lord (madhyama-sAtvika bhakti)

Duty (uttama-sAtvika bhakti)

 

But all of them have the commonality of "bheda-darshana" (which is

conscious of the multiplicity of the deities and recognises the

differences) as well as "idol worship" (worship of specific

manifestations of the Ultimate). Over and above these, there is the

nirguNa bhakti, defined as follows:

 

mad-guNa-shruti-mAtreNa mayi sarva-guhAshaye /

mano-gatir-avicchinnA yathA gangAmbhaso'mbudhau // (#11)

lakshhaNaM bhakti-yogasya nirguNasya hyudAhRRitaM /

ahaitukya-vyavahitA yA bhaktiH purushhottame // (#12)

 

Having heard about Him, one gets addicted with devotion that does

not see any distinction, without any expectation of results, to

the Purushhottama, who lives in the deepest hearts of all, like the

waters of the Ganges that keeps on going to the ocean. That is the

characteristic of nirguNa bhakti, the bhakti of the highest kind,

higher than the nine categories mentioned above. "

 

This is what is known as advaita-bhakti.

And the Lord continues, as if inspired:

 

"I am present in every living entity as the Self. Those who neglect

or disregard this omnipresence and engage themselves in the

worship of the Deity in the temple, they are only making a show of

themselves. That is like offering oblations into ashes instead of in

the Fire. He who thinks of Me, residing in the bodies of others, as

different from his Self can never attain peace of mind. He never

pleases Me even if he worships with proper rituals and

paraphernalia. As long as one does not realise the omnipresent Me

as resident in His own heart, so long has he to worship Me through

images, performing all his prescribed duties." (#s III – 29: 21 to

25)

 

PraNAms to all advaitin-devotees.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

wrote:

>

> Namaste Tony,

>

> "Actually this is true to a certain extent. For if one is a true

Jnani

> one would realise there is no Isvara, Saguna Brahman, therefore by

> common definition one is an atheist for rising above it all."

> Nirguna cannot be described by definition. So I look forward to

the

> day that I am an A-Theist or a Jivanmukta.............ONS..Tony."

>

> When one raises above all, as a jIvan muktA he will percive

brahman everywhere. He sees Ishvara in all. He sees divinity

everywhere. He is all Ananda. All differences are absolved.

>

> sarvam khalu idam brahman.- How can he be an atheist?

>

> om namo narayanaya

> Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

Namaste LM-ji,

 

Because you are assuming that the Jivanmukta sees or experiences. If

this were so then it would not constitute moksha. What sees and

hears is the body/mind complex surviving the ego being destroyed. So

the mind is in fact the Sakti then and sees itself.

However this is at the illusory Saguna level, and the Mukta is

Nirguna with no experience at all. In fact with the dropping of the

body there is no connection at all, even though Sakti because it

never did happen at all, not even the illusion or appearance. No

snake no rope.........Ajativada...........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

In my humble opinion..

For someone to say to a general audience that bhakti marga is

superior to jnana marga may not be entirely inappropriate.

 

The Narada Bhakti Sutra, one of the most beautiful vedantic books,

we find similair ideas there

 

"Easier is devotion than others, being selfevident, neither needing

no

other proofs to prove it in the least, And of the form of peace and

bliss inherent" Anyasmaat soulabhyam bhaktau....etc

 

and then again later towards the end..

Of the 3 truths (or paths) devotion alone is the greatest; indeed

devotion alone is the greatest!

 

In the Bhagwad Gita, if there is any one path which the Lord

persistently seems to favor, it is amply clear to any impartial

reader that it is Bhakti Yoga alone. This is especially borne out in

the 12th chapter, which begins with a direct and clear question from

Arjuna followed by an equally clear answer.

 

Again it may be because of Arjuna's particular stage of development

and maturity and inclinations that Krishna may have given such

advice, but that is the same thing that any teacher or speaker is

faced with - tailoring the message to the audience or student.

 

In fact the path of bhakti is open to everyone and even to all

religions and sects. It involves little effort or scholarly

erudition and tends to sublimate your ego more quickly than any of

the other paths.

 

The path of enquiry divorced from bhakti or upaasana will forever be

a dry intellectual pursuit.Examples of Tulsidas, Meerabai, Kabir and

countless others are examples enough that bhakti when taken to the

highest level can indeed result in liberation - the means to it will

of course have to be in the form of the teaching of "tat tvam asi" -

be it in this janma or perhaps directly from Brahmaji himself in

Brahmaloka after death.

 

By the same token labelling as an atheist, in any spirit of the

word, a jivanmukta is absurd. The concept of negating Ishwara or

rising above the cosmic plane or sublimating him is never necessary

or even advised by any Seer.

 

Have you ever heard of or read about any jivanmukta who was not a

devotee first??

 

Adi Shankara Himself was profuse in his outpurings of devotion to

Ishwara in various saguna aspects. Thinking of Ishwara as a mere

crutch for a sadhaka early on only to be discarded once he is more

advanced is mere prattle - this is not a here today gone tomorrow

Ishwara whose existence or lack thereof is considered or rejected

based on the sadhakas development.

It is our puny ego that needs sublimation, not its understanding or

aprreciation of Ishwara.

 

Before becoming established in jivanmukti you regard Ishwara as a

Omniscient Power who will guide and help you sumblimate our ego.

Once after a long journey that is accompliahsed and you realize your

oneness with brahman as aham brahmasmi there is no contradiction in

bowing to the same Saguna-Brahman Ishwara to thank him for helping

you cross the samsaric ocean. The understanding that everything is

brahman and that aham brahmasmi in no way precludes you from

marvelling at the srshti or maya or Ishwara, if anything your bhakti

is at the highest level.

 

One has to careful in our path of jnana yoga that we do not get

caught up in mere words and permutations therof because there is no

end to how much we can intellectually dissect this as the subject

matter ultimately is beyond words and concepts. Another thing we as

seekers on this path have to ever vigilant about is developing an

attitude of superiority or a condescending attitude towards seekers

on a different path such as bhakti yoga on account of our

intellectual prowess and learining of the upanisadic texts. Someone

who knows by rote even the Brahmasutras, is an expert in panini and

can skilfully argue with any opponent about the theory of brahman

and existence and such but has little control over his raga-dveshas

is millions of eons away from a simple rustic bhakta whose love for

the Lord is the only recurring vrtti his mind experiences all day

long and who may not have understood less even heard of the concepts

of error and its origins.

 

Isnt trying to think about how we would view Ishwara when we become

jivanmuktas akin to writing our victory acceptance speeches before

starting to train for the race?

 

hari om

 

Shyam

[Guest guest]

Thank you professor-ji for that beautiful passage on Advaita

bhakti !

 

At this point, i would also like to reproduce the following message

posted by you on this list on Advaita Saadhnaa !

 

Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote:

Bhakti is necessary for all paths:

 

--------------------------

Why did the Acharya, as well as Lord Krishna Himself,

demarcate only two classes of people: those who qualify for

karma yoga and those who qualify for jnAna yoga? Why did

they not make one more classification, namely, those who

qualify for bhakti? [Note by VK: cf. B. G. III – 3]

 

 

The lower level – karma pathfinder has to do bhakti in

order to recognise the thought that there is an Ishvara

above us who watches us and gives punishment. He should

then progress in the same level and continue to do bhakti

now to focus the mind through Love. A further progress –

still in the same `lower' level, not `higher' –

would make him carry on bhakti with the attitude of

surrender of all fruits of action.

 

And now at the higher level, the jnana pathfinder does his

bhakti with the thought: `The Brahman or the Atman for

which I am doing my saadhanaa, it is the same brahman that,

in its saguna, is the Ishvara; it is that Ishvara who has

granted me the taste in this path and it is only by His

Grace that I should obtain siddhi (success).

 

Above this -- above or below, higher or lower, none of

> which is applicable now – is the bhakti of those `siddhas'

who have reached that experiential stage (of Brahman

Realisation). For them there is no reason why they do

bhakti but still they do, says Shukacharya , one such

realised soul. (Shrimad Bhagavatam I – 7 – 10).

 

Thus, at all levels, there is bhakti in both karma and

jnAna; that is why bhakti is not separately mentioned.

 

 

 

Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

 

*********************************************************************

 

Mata Amritanandamayee says

"Parabhakti (supreme devotion) is pure Vedanta. The true devotee

sees everything as pervaded by God. He does not see anything except

God everywhere. When a devotee says, `Everything is pervaded by

God,' the Vedantin says, `Everything is pervaded by Brahman.' Both

are one and the same."

 

ON ANOTHER NOTE, HOW WILL AN ADVAITIN INTERPRET THIS VERSE IN sRIMAD

BHAGVAT GITA ?

 

 

purusah sa parah partha

bhaktya labhyas tv ananyaya

yasyantah-sthani bhutani

yena sarvam idam tatam ( bg ch 8 verse 22)

 

That highest Purusa, O Arjuna, is attainable by unswerving devotion

to Him alone within Whom all beings dwell and by Whom all this is

pervaded.

 

please help me understand this verse.

 

with warmest regards

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk

wrote:

>

> Namaste

>

> This discussion about jnAna versus bhakti comes up again and again

> on this list. But it is worthwhile to recall things said earlier

in

> this connection.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tonyji namaste,

JIvanmuktAnanadalahari

By Adi Shankara

I am posting the translation of the above work – 16 verses, by Tejomayanandaji.

The sage whose ignorance has been dispelled by the teachings of his teacher, is never deluded even though he be in a city observing and sporting with various persons – men and women – well dressed, wearing gold ornaments, for he ever remains aware of his own self – the seer, the witness.

In the forest he sees the trees that are, bent with the weight of the leaves, create a dense shade, and on which there dwell many chirping birds; and in the dark night he sleeps on the bare ground. But the sage, whose ignorance has been removed by the teachings of his teacher, never gets deluded. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh( this line is repeated in all the verses.)

Sometimes he lives in a palace and at other times in a white washed mansion; sometimes on a mountain and at other times on the banks of rivers; sometimes he lives in the hermitages of other sages who have self – control. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes laughing and clapping he plays with children, and at other times he plays with clever and beautiful young women; sometimes he shares the worries of the old and laments with others. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he enjoys the company of people delighting in ornamentation (perfumes) and sometimes he enjoys the literary beauty and sentiments expressed in the poetry of great poets; at other times he engagaes hiself in arguments with logicians. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he is in meditation and sometimes with a cheerful mind he worships the Lord with fully –blossomed fragrant flowers and clean fresh leaves and praises the Lord. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes with his eyes filled with tears of joy, he chants the names of the Goddess Parvati, or Lord Shiva, Vishnu, ganesha, or the Sun-god. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he bathes in the Ganges, or sometimes with the water from a well; sometimes he bathes in a lake, or sometimes with hot water or cold water; yet at other times he smears his body with camphor like white ashes. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh

In the waking state he acts in the world of objects with his senses and other organs of action; in the dream state he experiences the dream objects and in deep sleep state experiences the happiness of that state. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he is without clothes, and sometimes he is attired in silken garments; sometimes he wraps himself with a tiger skin and , with his mind under control, he lives fearlessly delighting the hearts of his devotees. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes his mind remains in the sattvic state, sometimes in the rajasic state or tamasic, and at others beyond the three gunas; sometimes he appears as a worldly person and at others as one who roams in the streets of the city of vedanta munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he is silent, and sometimes he is engaged in discussions; sometimes he laughs aloud(without words of explanation) revelling in the bliss of his own self; and at others he observes closely the behaviour of people around him. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he feeds the mouths of the various goddesses and sometimes his own! He remains revealing his non-dual nature which is free from ideas of oneself and otherness. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Free from all notions of differences and aware of the nature of the non-dual self, he enjoys living with the devotees of Shiva, Shakti, Vishnu, the Sun god and Ganesha. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Sometimes he exclaims with wonder and joy at his own auspicious nature which, though formless still has a form depending on various conditionings. munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

Even though he perceives the world, the sage, due to his practice of meditation on the meaning of the MahAvAkyas, still sees the entire world as the absolute conscious Reality. Free from the notion of duality he remains chanting repeatedly, “Shiva, Shiva, Shiva.”(Auspicious – shubhaM, ma`NgalaM). munirna vyAmoham bhajati gurudIxAxatatamAh.

 

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

 

Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Shyam-ji for the varippos melodios notes emating from your

message number 32288 ! They sound just like the Madhura Dwani from

sri Murali manohara's divine flute !

 

i specially resonated with these words

 

" Adi Shankara Himself was profuse in his outpurings of devotion to

Ishwara in various saguna aspects. Thinking of Ishwara as a mere

crutch for a sadhaka early on only to be discarded once he is more

advanced is mere prattle - this is not a here today gone tomorrow

Ishwara whose existence or lack thereof is considered or rejected

based on the sadhakas development."

 

Rather, we see that our beloved Adi shankara Bhagvadapada composed

many devotional verses on various deities after HE was fuklklly

situated in Brahma Jnana !

 

On Lord Krishna

 

The very first verse of ACHYUTASHTAKAM reads

 

acyutaM kezavaM rAma nArAyaNaM

kRSNa dAmodaraM vAsudevaM harim

zrIdhraM mAdhavaM gopikA vallabhaM

jAnakI nAyakaM rAmacandraM bhaje

 

"I dearly adore my Beloved Lord,

Who is Imperishable (acyuta),

Who is the Supreme source of Lord Brahma and Lord Siva (kezava),

Who is the tanscendental Enjoyer (rAma),

Who makes His residence in all living beings (nArAyaNa),

Who irresistable attractor of all the souls (kRSNa),

Who is bound at the waist with a chord of Divine Love (dAmodara),

the darling Son of Vasudeva (vAsudeva),

the expert Stealer of hearts (hari),

the Possessor of Divine opulence (zrIdhara),

the dearmost Spouse of Goddess Lakshmi (mAdhava),

the eternal Sweetheart of Gopikas (gopikA- vallabha),

and the handsome moon like Lord Sri Rama (rAmacandra),

Who is the Beloved Hero of Srimati Janaki Devi (jAnakI nAyaka).

 

 

On sri MEENAKSHI

 

Adi shankara Bhagvadapada worships Sri MEENAKSHI THUS :

 

 

shriividyaaM shivavaamabhaaganilayaaM hriiMkaaramantrojjvalaaM

shriichakraaN^kita bindumadhyavasatiM shriimatsabhaanaayakiim.h |

shriimatshhaNmukhavighnaraajajananiiM shriimajjaganmohiniiM

miinaaxiiM praNato.asmi sa.ntatamahaM kaaruNyavaaraaMnidhim

 

 

 

I remain ever bowing to that (goddess) Minakshi , a manifestation of

the sacred knowledge (Srividya ) who always remains on the left-side

of the lord Siva, and is shining in the sacred syllable of HrIm,

residing in the small circle in the middle of the sacred circle

(sricakra), that queen gracing the court of the Lord (Sundaresa) and

is also the mother of the six-faced one (shañmukha) and the master

of obstacles (Vighnarája) and also who enchants the world. (3)

 

On Lord Subramanya

 

Adi shankara bhagvadapada showers this praise

 

namah kekine shaktaye chApi tubhyam, namah chhaga tubhyam namah

kukkutAya

namah sindhave sindhu deshAya tubhyam, punah skanda moorthe namaste

namostu

 

I bow to Thee, O Peacock (the symbol of Vedas)! I bow to Thee, O

Shakti Weapon (Vel is Parashakti herself), I bow to Thee, O Sheep

(the symbol of maya tattvam), I bow to Thee, O Rooster (the symbol

of Ego), I bow to Thee, O Ocean (the symbol of ananda), I bow to

Thee, O Tiruchendur Shrine, I bow to Thee, O Lord Skanda! I bow to

Thee again and again! Let all my prostrations reach Thee!

 

On Lord Ganesha ;

 

Adi shankara bhagvadapada sings in Ganessha panchratnam

 

Mudaa karaatta modakam sadaa vimukti saadhakam

Kalaadharaavata nsakam vilaasi loka rakshakam

Anaayakaika naayakam vinaashitebha daityakam

Nataashubhaashu naashakam namaami tam vinaayakam .. [1]

 

In glee He keeps in His hand the ``modaka'' (a sweet edible

preparation that is aptly named modaka the delighter). He is ever

the means to liberation, moksa. He wears, as an ornament , the digit

moon (on His forehead). He is the protector of those who shine (in

the mirthful life of pleasures of the world). He is the `Lordless

unique Lord'. He destroyed the `Elephant-Demon', and He destroys

quickly the evils (sufferings, or inauspicious happening) of those

who bow to Him. That `Vinayaka', I adore.

 

On Lord Hanuman .

 

Adi Shankara bhagvadapada sings thus in Sri Hanumata pancharatnam

 

taruNaaruNa mukha-kamala.n karuNaa-rasapuura-puuritaapaaN^gam.h |

 

sanjiivanamaashaase maJNjula-mahimaanamaJNjanaa-bhaagyam.h || 2||

 

 

I think of Hanuman, whose face is like the lotus, red like the

rising sun, the corners of whose eyes are full of the feeling of

mercy, who is life-giving, whose greatness has the quality of

beauty, who personifies Anjana's good fortune |2|

 

and the best of all, Our beloved Adi shankara BHAGVADAPADA

describes 'BHAKTI ' as

 

aN^kolaM nijabiijasantatirayaskaantopalaM suuchikaa

saadhvii naijavibhuM lataa kshitiruhaM sindhuH saridvallabham.h |

praapnotiiha yathaa tathaa pashupateH paadaaravindadvayaM

chetovR^ittirupetya tishhThati sadaa saa bhaktirityuchyate

 

 

Just as the ankola fruit falling from the tree rejoins it or a piece

of iron is drawn to magnet, so also thoughts, after rising up, lose

themselves in their original source. This is bhakti. The original

source of thoughts is the feet of the Lord, Isvara. Love of His Feet

forms bhakti. (61)

 

We can go on and on about all the neautiful compostions on the

various deities composed by the great brahma jnani jagadguru sri adi

shankara bhagvadapada .

 

But why did a paramajnani compose so many devotional hymns on

various gods and gosddesses ?

 

Shyam-ji, please read sri Ramana maharishii's comments on this !

 

"There is the Tantric Advaita which admits three fundamentals jagat,

jiva, Isvara - world, soul, God. These three are also real. But the

Reality does not end with them. It extends beyond. That is the

Tantric Advaita. The Reality is limitless. The three fundamentals do

not exist apart from the Absolute Reality. All agree that Reality is

all-pervading; that Isvara pervades jiva; therefore the jiva has

eternal being. His knowledge is not limited. Limited knowledge is

only imagined by him. In truth, his is infinite knowledge. Its limit

is Silence. This truth was revealed by Dakshinamurti. For those who

still perceive these three fundamentals they are said to be

realities. They are concomitant with the ego.

 

True, the images of gods are described in great detail. Such

description points only to the final Reality. Otherwise why is the

special significance of each detail also given? Think. The image is

only a symbol. Only that which lies beyond name and form is Reality.

Saiva Siddhanta and Vedanta have the common aim of the same Truth.

*Otherwise how could Sri Sankaracharya, the greatest exponent of

Advaita, sing praises of gods? Obviously he did so knowingly.*

 

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~alfar2/ramana.htm

 

When one of Adi Shankara's disciples questioned him:

 

"mumukSunNA kiM tvaritaM vidheyam?"

 

"What should the seeker who is desirous to attain Salvation do

immediately?

 

Acarya's reply:"satsangatir nirmamateza bhaktiH"

 

Adi Shankaracarya replied "that the bonds of material attachment

should be broken, and the mind attached to God and the

aspirants should seek the Association of Saints."

 

 

The desciple again asked:"kiM karma kRtvA na zocanIyaM?"

 

"What is that work which a wise man performs and does

not repent?"

 

Adi Shankaracarya immediately said:"kAmAri-kaMsAri amarcanAkhyam"

 

"One who is devoted to God (Lord Krishna) is carefree.

 

In fact Acharya Shankara, the greatest advicate of Advaita doctrine,

advised his Own Mother Aryambaal to practice devotion to Lord

Krishna and Blessed her with the Vision of the Lord.

 

 

Not only that, listen to his next proclamation -"kAmyopAsana

yArthayanty anudinaM kincit phalaM svepsitam,kecit svargam

athApavargam apare yogAdi yajnAdibhiH,asmAkaM yadunandanAMghri yugala

dhyAnAvadhAnArthinAm,kiM lokena damena kiM nRpatinA svargApavargaizca

kiM?"

 

"Those who waste their time for the attainment of celestial joys or

Liberation (mukti- apavarga) are Fools! I DO not want any of that ! O

I only desire to remain engrossed in the Sweet Remembrance of the

Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna. What is the need for heaven or

Mukti to Prema Bhaktas of Lord?"

 

Thus Sri Shankara appears to consider all objects, including final

Liberation as insignificant in comparison to constant Loving

Meditation of the Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna!

 

One needs to read 'Prabodha Sudhakara' to understand the Acharya's

Divine Love for the lotus feet of the Lord Krishna!

 

Sri Lakshmiji , could you please post the translation of Prabodha

sudhakara - this is not available on the net! Thank you!

 

HARI AUM TAT SAT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

DhyAnasarasvatiji namste,

 

Yes, I shall attempt the meaning of Prabhodha Sudhakara. I have Sammata Book publication translation by on Shri Samvit. if its accepted by the moderators I will be too happy to post them.

 

om namo narayanaya

 

Lakshmi

 

 

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Thank you sri Lakshmiji !

 

Adi Shankara bhagvadapada composed this great work 'prabodha

sudhakara' in the last days of his mortal life . There is a telugu

translation available on the net but i have not seen an English

translation .

 

 

meanwhile , it would be a good idea to post verses from 'Daya

shatakam' also of Sridhara Ayyaval! ! Of course, if it is o.k with

the moderators !

 

btw, the very first verse of adi shankara bhagvadapad's upadesa

panchakam says

 

"Study the Veda every day; do properly the karma prescribed therein;

through that (act), worship the Lord (Èùa); give up the thought of

doing an act with desire (for its fruit); shake off the group of

sinful deeds; consider (mentally) the defect in worldly pleasure;

strive for the desire (for the knowledge) of the Átmán (Self); get

out of your home without delay. "

 

 

is the acharya recommending 'sanyasa' with this advice ?

 

" Get out of your home without delay"

 

any takers ?

 

regards

 

 

 

 

 

-- In advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

wrote:

>

> DhyAnasarasvatiji namste,

>

> Yes, I shall attempt the meaning of Prabhodha Sudhakara. I have

Sammata Book publication translation by on Shri Samvit. if its

accepted by the moderators I will be too happy to post them.

>

> om namo narayanaya

>

> Lakshmi

>

>

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dhyana sarsvati amma namaskaram

 

"Get out of your home without delay"

 

baakki yella linayum vittuttu idai onna maatram pidichikkanuma. bakki ellam overa yenna? I am enjoying a hearty laugh. Thank you for this. Good for introspection.

 

meaning - holding on to this line alone, leaving other lines in the stanza. Has all the content and intent of the other lines in the stanza, been accomplished? I am addressing this question to myself.

 

I am still in the very first line of the stanza. j~nAna khanaDa part of the vedas, not yet fully digested.

 

Lord Krishna's assurance is comforting. If I leave behind unfinished, then I will be born again to continue. So no worries. Study in leisure.

 

Daya shatakam noted.

 

om namo narayanaya

 

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

 

Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Shyam, Smt Dhyanasaraswati and others,

 

I recognize that the term "atheist" may bring up negative connations

in the minds of some people, but let us be clear on what we are

talking about.

 

All I was saying was that advaita-vedAnta ultimately rejects the

notion of a creator God. Generally, when people use the term 'God',

they imagine a sort of superhuman personality who is separate from

themselves, who rules the world, and so forth. advaita-vedAnta

ultimately rejects this notion. This has nothing to do with bhakti

whatsoever.

 

On 01/08/06, shyam_md <shyam_md > wrote:

>

> The path of enquiry divorced from bhakti or upaasana will forever be

> a dry intellectual pursuit.Examples of Tulsidas, Meerabai, Kabir and

> countless others are examples enough that bhakti when taken to the

> highest level can indeed result in liberation - the means to it will

> of course have to be in the form of the teaching of "tat tvam asi" -

> be it in this janma or perhaps directly from Brahmaji himself in

> Brahmaloka after death.

 

So you agree that the teaching of tattvamasi is important. Yes, jnAna

divorced from upAsanA or bhakti will be a dry intellectual pursuit. At

the same time, bhakti without jnAna can easily descend into

fanaticism.

 

Smt Dhyanasaraswati posted excerpts from some of SrI SankarAcArya's

devotional poetry. But did you notice something here? mIrAbAI was a

bhakta of kR^iShNa, the nAyanmArs of Siva, and so forth. But SrI

SankarAcArya was a bhakta of Siva, kR^iShNa, gaNeSha, devI, etc all

rolled into one. Doesn't that signify something?

 

>

> Before becoming established in jivanmukti you regard Ishwara as a

> Omniscient Power who will guide and help you sumblimate our ego.

> Once after a long journey that is accompliahsed and you realize your

> oneness with brahman as aham brahmasmi there is no contradiction in

> bowing to the same Saguna-Brahman Ishwara to thank him for helping

> you cross the samsaric ocean. The understanding that everything is

> brahman and that aham brahmasmi in no way precludes you from

> marvelling at the srshti or maya or Ishwara, if anything your bhakti

> is at the highest level.

 

You are saying the same thing in different words. What does it mean

for the seeker to realize his oneness with brahman? It means that

notions of the independent existence of jIva, jagat and ISvara are

sublated. Of course, nothing stops the jIvanmukta from "bowing" to

ISvara. Does anything stop the jIvanmukta from eating or walking?

Didn't Ramana Maharshi display a lot of affection for a cow in his

Ashrama?

 

The jIvanmukta's mouth eats, his feet walk, his intellect thinks, his

hands write, his eyes see, his nose breathes, and so forth. All these

things happen even though the jIvanmukta has transcended them.

Similarly, a jIvanmukta can also write devotional poetry. But just as

his own ego is sublated, the notion of a separate ISvara and a

separate jagat is also sublated.

 

jIvanmukti need not preclude bhakti, just as it need not preclude

eating, writing, talking, compassion for living creatures, etc.

Nevertheless, some bhakta-s may find this sublation of a separate

ISvara unpalatable and feel that advaita-vedAnta is atheistic. That

explains the kathakAr's stance which Smt Lakshmi Muthuswamy referred

to in her original post.

 

But a more fundamental question here. Can bhakti be towards ISvara

only? The Hindu tradition clearly recognizes bhakti towards one's

mother, father, guru, etc. The jaina-s and the bauddha-s have no

concept of ISvara. Are they devoid of bhakti? In what way is bhakti

towards mahAvIra jina or Sakyamuni buddha or SankarAcArya or sAI bAbA

different from bhakti towards Siva or devI? The spirit of the

toTakAShtakam and the bhaja govindam are the same.

 

All one can say is that it is probably a trifle easier to develop

bhakti towards ISvara than towards the guru. But even that can be

disputed. In our tradition, we imagine ISvara as mother, father, guru,

son, daughter, master and even lover! daxinAmUrti is a guru, and so is

kR^iShNa the gItAcArya.

 

So ISvara is not a prerequisite for bhakti.

 

>

> Isnt trying to think about how we would view Ishwara when we become

> jivanmuktas akin to writing our victory acceptance speeches before

> starting to train for the race?

 

Sure it is. But the term 'jIvanmukta' is used by us ajnAnI-s and it is

natural for us to discuss about it. After all, we are discussing

vedAnta here, aren't we? Strictly speaking, most of us here aren't

even qualified for the jnAna mArga. We probably shouldn't even be

flipping the pages of the Atmabodha, far from reading the upaniShad-s.

And yet we do that all the time.

 

The intellect is also a tool given by ISvara. It should be used as

much as anything else.

 

By the way, I am a Siva bhakta too, though far from being a very

advanced one ) Over the last 3 years, I have visited 7 jyotirlinga-s

across India.

 

dhanyosmi

Ramesh

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dhyanasaraswathi amma,

 

Your posting on the above subject is very interesting and thought provoking. I am expressing a few stray thoughts on the subject even thogh not at all competent to comment on the subject unable to resist the temptation of writing a few lines. .

 

All those upadeshas (perhaps to Brahmins in those days as the Vedaadhyayana and Vaidika karmanusthaana are only limited to them) if truely followed life will be nothing less than miserable due to too many rules and restrictions. There is no positive result for doing nitya and naimittika karmas karmas if you donot perform them there is pratyavaya. Even if small mistake occurs there will be more serious bad results. And most difficult part is without desire perfoming all the duties as efficiently as the others.Perhaps this is all the impact of poorva mimamsa thoght then which was reigning in the Brahmana sections.

 

If all these are followed Serious Vairagya must resultin. Sankara must have appeared as a savior to those striken in these Vaidika Karmas. He got relesed them from those fetters of karma in an honourable way which has the approval of even Veda. So sanyasa might have been attractive than these burdens of karmas. Hence Sankara is a great liberator for Bramhanas(apologies to the great Achrya with whose grace Advaita Kowledge become accessible to the world). Freedom from these karmas is a must for proper and serous reflection on the Bramhan. They might have seen the last upadesha as last ray of hope from fetters of karma and still more attractive Niratisaya sukha promised by the Aparoksha Atma J~nana or Anubhava. Even in gita at many places we can see the dreadfulness of karma.

"Buddhya yukto yaya partha karma bandham prahaasyasi" tatkim karmani ghore maam niyojayasi kesava"" Iti maam yobhi janati karmabhir nasa badhyate".

 

Now a days which are purely individualistic, Karma is no longer a bandha. Neither nitya karmas nor naimittika need be followed. Only karmas for Udara poshana and kamya karmas if they like to do them. We enjoy great freedom without the restrictons of sanyasa. In a way we are already half sanyasis without the taboos of pratyavayas for nonprfomance or defective performance.Only manasika sanyasa is lacking. Physically we are all sanyasis.

For atma Jnana we have many good translations of Bhashya granthas which were not accessible even to devout Brahmins in those days and many learned scholars are available who wont hesitate to share their knowledge like in our group . Aparoksha Anubhava of Atman is a rare commodity even among saffron clad sadhus. thats why the last updeshaa might have lost importance.

 

anxious to see the valuable criticisms and exposure of defects in my posting.

with apologies if I hurt any body's feelings

Yours sincerely

 

Moses Yesupadam

 

 

 

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