theist Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 What is the distinction between karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Let us see what Krsna Himself says. As He says in Gita, karma-yoga is actively performing one's prescribed duties without being attached to its results and offering the results to God. Bhakti yoga is always remembering God through any means (worship/meditation etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaea Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 What is the distinction between karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga? one is fun, the other isn't nahh, my knowledge of these things are sooo poor... but we know what BG has to say about it, as Avinash has pointed out (we know it, but understanding it is different matter!!) -- so let's look at mahabharata and take, for instance, Vidura ji. CONSTANTLY he was watching his words, actions, thoughts - he was the living embodiment of Dharma. Therefore he was performing his duty as prime minister, husband and friend absolutely perfectly. And who came to his home to eat his fruit? Krsna Himself! And then we can see in MB that Vidura is not only the perfect Karma Yogist but suddenly he becomes a true devotee. The same with Bhishma. Even more so with Kunti Maa. So my take-home message from this is that we go through stages in our lives - we mess around, then strict discpline comes (e..g via religion), we try to perform our duties structly but ultimately we become devotees - in the end it is love that pervades, not action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 http://vedabase.net/bg/6/47/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 What is the distinction between karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga? To my feeble understanding. Karma-yoga is mixed Bhakti, where the person serves God for some purpose (i.e a car, house, a 'lady'). But the person does pray to God, (eventually) coming to higher understandings. That these material aquesziations are not the real purpose. i.e Praying to God for material desires (demi-Gods) is Karma-yoga. Islam for example is considered Karma-yoga, but mixed with Jnana possibly. Christianity is possibly the same? Karma-yoga and Jnana-yoga. Although they do explain Bhakti-yoga as well. We have to choose one or the other, all religions come under either one of the catergories, so everybody has chance to serve God. For example in Islam they desire heavenly happiness (material desire), but they want to serve Allah as well (so its mixed Bhakti (Karma-yoga). Christians desire to serve Lord Jesus and Jehovah, but they too have desire for heavenly happiness (Karma-yoga). Possibly both mixing with Jnana-yoga. But this desire makes us want to serve, and it purifes us eventually. So they are good for the soul. Eventually though Bhakti-yoga (Direct Service to God without any adultaration (pure bhakti), total surrender is recommened. Also Karma-yoga, as Impersonal realizations (Jnana), Demi-God worshippers have Personal (?), everybody wants something different. In India people worship mosly Shiva, and Ganesha and Hanuman. But mosly because of 'practise' They always worship Janamastami Celebrations (i watched one yesterday with my cousins in India, was amazing). So everybody is trying to serve God, and everybody is judged individually. When I went to Islamic forum, most Muslims are very open, but mosly they are just starting out (like us), so it's not good to disturb I found out. Same with Christians, I found better to not disturb somebodies creeper. Krishna has given so many paths (His all merciful!!!). So people eventually come to Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 To my feeble understanding. Karma-yoga is mixed Bhakti, where the person serves God for some purpose (i.e a car, house, a 'lady'). But the person does pray to God, (eventually) coming to higher understandings. That these material aquesziations are not the real purpose. i.e Praying to God for material desires (demi-Gods) is Karma-yoga. Islam for example is considered Karma-yoga, but mixed with Jnana possibly. Christianity is possibly the same? Karma-yoga and Jnana-yoga. Although they do explain Bhakti-yoga as well. We have to choose one or the other, all religions come under either one of the catergories, so everybody has chance to serve God. For example in Islam they desire heavenly happiness (material desire), but they want to serve Allah as well (so its mixed Bhakti (Karma-yoga). Christians desire to serve Lord Jesus and Jehovah, but they too have desire for heavenly happiness (Karma-yoga). Possibly both mixing with Jnana-yoga. But this desire makes us want to serve, and it purifes us eventually. So they are good for the soul. Eventually though Bhakti-yoga (Direct Service to God without any adultaration (pure bhakti), total surrender is recommened. Also Karma-yoga, as Impersonal realizations (Jnana), Demi-God worshippers have Personal (?), everybody wants something different. In India people worship mosly Shiva, and Ganesha and Hanuman. But mosly because of 'practise' They always worship Janamastami Celebrations (i watched one yesterday with my cousins in India, was amazing). So everybody is trying to serve God, and everybody is judged individually. When I went to Islamic forum, most Muslims are very open, but mosly they are just starting out (like us), so it's not good to disturb I found out. Same with Christians, I found better to not disturb somebodies creeper. Krishna has given so many paths (His all merciful!!!). So people eventually come to Him. Wow, I just don't believe you have any conception of karma yoga at all. Karma yoga is action without consideration of result. It's about serving God by performing action. It is considered the highest action, but I believe that true karma yoga is impossible without jnana yoga and bhakti yoga. In fact, I believe they are all interdependent, like an intricate web, resulting in perfect and unerring devotion to the Lord, while entrenched in this world. As for Islam and Christianity, they do not emphasize jnana yoga at all. Nor do they emphasize karma yoga. They emphasize and restrict people to perform bhakti yoga, and nothing more. It's precisely because they're so rigid in structure that it turns so many people away from these religions. They are controlled religions where paths of self-realization are discouraged for the believer, unless that person is a priest. Even so, they scorn any mystical self-enquiry, any self-realization. They demand submission to God and their scriptures as the highest Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Further continuation: Karma yoga involves performing action only to serve God. That is true karma yoga. That is the path of right action. Performing action for the collective whole and forsaking individual needs or wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Wow, I just don't believe you have any conception of karma yoga at all. Karma yoga is action without consideration of result. It's about serving God by performing action. It is considered the highest action, but I believe that true karma yoga is impossible without jnana yoga and bhakti yoga. In fact, I believe they are all interdependent, like an intricate web, resulting in perfect and unerring devotion to the Lord, while entrenched in this world. As for Islam and Christianity, they do not emphasize jnana yoga at all. Nor do they emphasize karma yoga. They emphasize and restrict people to perform bhakti yoga, and nothing more. It's precisely because they're so rigid in structure that it turns so many people away from these religions. They are controlled religions where paths of self-realization are discouraged for the believer, unless that person is a priest. Even so, they scorn any mystical self-enquiry, any self-realization. They demand submission to God and their scriptures as the highest Truth. Giving up the results is the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 I'm not a christian and have learned over the years that it is best to study deeply one's own tradition and understand it rather than commenting on other traditions with which I am less familiar. Also, it is my firm conviction that trying to undertand christianity or islam from a distance, or more accurately from outside the tradition, only leads to misconception and misrepresentation. Just like a gaudiya vaishnava would consider it foolish for a christian to make assertions about the gaudiya path it is equally foolish for a gaudiya to interpret or overlay their own theology/philosophy on their rudimentary understanding of christianity. Having said that - karma yoga is all about detached action - karma mixed with bhakti (karma mishra bhakti) is about dovetailing our actions with devotion to God. Now, since we have those simple definitions I would like to know why one would charactertize christianty as not emphasizing these in their doctrine. From my exposure to christianity (my wife is catholic) I can tell you that the emphasis is on living in the world but not of the world - sounds pretty similar to 'detached action'. Further, the emphasis on doing good to others and acting out of compassion in the world as well as depending on God for the results of all actions seems pretty similar conceptually. At any rate, our goal in bhakti is for unmotivated and uninterupted devotional service - that is bhakti yoga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted August 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Nice responses. I really like Gaea's emphasis on the word "love". I am on the same page with Audarya-lila I believe in terms of critiquing others processes of religion. Such things have to be seen through impartial eyes on we will interject our own personal biases onto our own viewpoint. It seems to me that one who really understands these things in one's own path would be able to appreciate the same thing in the religion of others. I would like to better understand the mindset differences between karma-misra-bhakti, jnana-misra-bhakti and suddha bhakti. Any help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2006 Report Share Posted August 2, 2006 Gaura Hari Bol Theist, Hope to see you at ratha yatra in S.F. on Sunday. A quick and easy answer is that jnana and karma mishra bhakti is the platform aspiring sadhakas are on until their material desires are exhausted. We engage in bhakti but it's mixed because we engage in activities to satisfy our seperate interests which fall into categories of karma and jnana. So our devotion is mixed - we have a clear goal but we also have many other minor goals that divert our attention and slow our progress. Hopefully, as aspiring sadhakas, our material desires are diverted and governed by our overall goal of attaining suddha bhakti. What I mean by that is that as we engage ourselves with the world in terms of fulfilling our seperate interests we should be careful that those interests are at least aligned with our overall world view and that they don't take us backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 Bhakti means intense love for God. The love can be any sense - as lover, friend, son, father etc. In bhakti one strongly believes that whatever God does to somebody is for good. A true bhakta does not think that God should give him what he thinks God should give, but rather God should give him what God wants to give. No matter whatever God gives him, he is happy and devoted to God. ("Not mine but Thine will be done.") The above is true for any kind of bhakti, whethere it is karma mishra bhakti or jnana mishra bhakti. The difference is that in karma-mishra bhakti, one performs his prescribed duties and does not get attached to results. He is equanimous whether the results are as he expected or different because he believes that he has not authority on the results. He may enjoy the results but keeping in mind that the results are God's and he is enjoying those results because God has granted him permission to do so. If the results are such that he has to face some problems, then he does not stop performing his duties. He believes that God has a purpose behind this (e.g. testing his dedication) and he continues to perform his duties. In jnana mishra bhakti, one tries to reach God by collecting knowledge. The knowledge can be collected by talking to knowledgeable people, studying scriptures, meditation, through analysis. In spite of collecting knowledge for a long time, if he does not find himself coming close to God, he does not stop collecting knowledge. He believes that one day he will achieve God and continues to imbibe knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 The culmination of all kinds of yoga practices lies in bhakti yoga. All other yogas are but means to come to the point of bhakti in bhakti-yoga. Yoga actually means bhakti-yoga; all other yogas are progressions toward the destination of bhakti-yoga. From the beginning of karma-yoga to the end of bhakti-yoga is a long way to self-realization. Karma-yoga, without fruitive results, is the beginning of this path. When karma-yoga increases in knowledge and renunciation, the stage is called jJAna-yoga. When jJAna-yoga increases in meditation on the Supersoul by different physical processes, and the mind is on Him, it is called aSTAGga-yoga. And when one surpasses the aSTAGga-yoga and comes to the point of the Supreme Personality of Godhead KRSNa, it is called bhakti yoga, the culmination. Factually, bhakti-yoga is the ultimate goal, but to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other yogas. The yogI who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal good fortune. One who sticks to a particular point and does not make further progress is called by that particular name: karma-yogI, jJAna-yogI or dhyAna-yogI, rAja-yogI, haTha-yogI, etc. If one is fortunate enough to come to the point of bhakti-yoga, it is to be understood that he has surpassed all other yogas. Therefore, to become KRSNa conscious is the highest stage of yoga, just as, when we speak of HimAlayan, we refer to the world's highest mountains, of which the highest peak, Mount Everest, is considered to be the culmination. [ACBSP in BG 6.47p] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted August 3, 2006 Report Share Posted August 3, 2006 When jJAna-yoga increases in meditation on the Supersoul by different physical processes, and the mind is on Him, it is called aSTAGga-yoga. [ACBSP in BG 6.47p] We cannot do this now so is this considered to be Diety Worship, hare-krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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