Do you have to believe in caste in order to be a Hindu?

[Guest guest]

Hi there,

 

I was born into a Hindu family and I really revere all the teachings in Hinduism but I just don't believe in caste and personally I think it is inhumane. I have done heavy research on this topic and issue and I know everything there is to know. I just don't believe it was a good thing. I know many cultures and religions in ancient times grouped people together according to occupation but the mere fact that the "lowest" caste (Shudras) were barred (and still are) barred from reading the vedas and cannot be involved in any holy rituals shows to me there was much hatred and discrimination going on in our religion even in ancient times...the so called Golden Age.

 

Now if people argue that the Shudras were just "laborers" and a part of the natural law of the caste ystem and have a important place in society just as much as the other three castes then why so much hatred towards them? Why were they not allowed to read the vedas or chant the holy names? Why were they considered such bad people? I mean they were just laboreres according to the Hindu caste system right? Laboreres are not bad people are they? Hey I know a few Brahmin Hindus that come here and do the job of Shudras so what's the big deal?

 

Also if caste is natural and holy then why is there a high and low? Why are some considered better then others? Why can't we all be equal in the eyes of God?

 

Lastly, can I remain a Hindu and not believe in this inhumane practice? If so, what denominations of Hinduism do not follow caste or are there any?

[Guest guest]

 

Lastly, can I remain a Hindu and not believe in this inhumane practice? If so, what denominations of Hinduism do not follow caste or are there any?

 

Yes, many Hindus (at least the ones outside India) reject the caste system. Obviously, bigotry has nothing to do with true Dharma, so all the modern bigots are adharmic and have only brought shame on Hinduism, because of their bigotry.. Don't worry though, in their next birth, they will be born in a situation that makes them see how it feels like when the shoe is on the other foot, and they are the ones being discriminated against.

 

The Arya Samaj is probably the most famous sect to condemn the caste system, and they are engaged in continued work to help end it.

 

aryasamaj.com/

 

Please don't leave Hinduism because of a few bigots. You will find so many that share your heart and concern on this manner. Stand with us and help us eradicate all caste bigotry from our great religion..

[Guest guest]

 

Hi there,

 

I was born into a Hindu family and I really revere all the teachings in Hinduism but I just don't believe in caste and personally I think it is inhumane. I have done heavy research on this topic and issue and I know everything there is to know. I just don't believe it was a good thing. I know many cultures and religions in ancient times grouped people together according to occupation but the mere fact that the "lowest" caste (Shudras) were barred (and still are) barred from reading the vedas and cannot be involved in any holy rituals shows to me there was much hatred and discrimination going on in our religion even in ancient times...the so called Golden Age.

 

Now if people argue that the Shudras were just "laborers" and a part of the natural law of the caste ystem and have a important place in society just as much as the other three castes then why so much hatred towards them? Why were they not allowed to read the vedas or chant the holy names? Why were they considered such bad people? I mean they were just laboreres according to the Hindu caste system right? Laboreres are not bad people are they? Hey I know a few Brahmin Hindus that come here and do the job of Shudras so what's the big deal?

 

Also if caste is natural and holy then why is there a high and low? Why are some considered better then others? Why can't we all be equal in the eyes of God?

 

Lastly, can I remain a Hindu and not believe in this inhumane practice? If so, what denominations of Hinduism do not follow caste or are there any?

 

 

I don't believe in the caste system, yet I'm a Hindu.

 

As for the caste system, I don't believe its purpose was to separate groups into higher or lower. It was supposed to be looked upon as all equal, but as time went on, discrimination, arrogance and ego took hold, and caused the degeneration of the caste system. British imperialism didn't help either as they encouraged such things since it aided their ability to rule.

[tackleberry]

Since caste is an integral part of Hinduism, you cannot be Hindu without subscribing to this principle.

[Guest guest]

 

Hi there,

 

I was born into a Hindu family and I really revere all the teachings in Hinduism but I just don't believe in caste and personally I think it is inhumane. I have done heavy research on this topic and issue and I know everything there is to know. I just don't believe it was a good thing. I know many cultures and religions in ancient times grouped people together according to occupation but the mere fact that the "lowest" caste (Shudras) were barred (and still are) barred from reading the vedas and cannot be involved in any holy rituals shows to me there was much hatred and discrimination going on in our religion even in ancient times...the so called Golden Age.

 

Now if people argue that the Shudras were just "laborers" and a part of the natural law of the caste ystem and have a important place in society just as much as the other three castes then why so much hatred towards them? Why were they not allowed to read the vedas or chant the holy names? Why were they considered such bad people? I mean they were just laboreres according to the Hindu caste system right? Laboreres are not bad people are they? Hey I know a few Brahmin Hindus that come here and do the job of Shudras so what's the big deal?

 

Also if caste is natural and holy then why is there a high and low? Why are some considered better then others? Why can't we all be equal in the eyes of God?

 

Lastly, can I remain a Hindu and not believe in this inhumane practice? If so, what denominations of Hinduism do not follow caste or are there any?

 

Read the Vedas, teach it to your children. Learn Sanskrit and become one with the Sanskrit culture. How much have you done, and how much are you going to do? This is not the day to blame others.

 

The caste system is not going to bow out depending on the modern Hindus: for it was based on rigour and not dilution, and for most Hindus of today, the ideal of God realization is mere mouthing if at all. The standards of the sages cannot be let into the hands of those who have surrendered the Vedic religion into the winds of the past. There are those in India still holding onto to the lamp; do your research there among the ones still struggling for the ideal and not in books or people who don't practice anything but preach everything for or against. Good wishes.

[Guest guest]

 

Read the Vedas, teach it to your children. Learn Sanskrit and become one with the Sanskrit culture. How much have you done, and how much are you going to do? This is not the day to blame others.

 

The caste system is not going to bow out depending on the modern Hindus: for it was based on rigour and not dilution, and for most Hindus of today, the ideal of God realization is mere mouthing if at all. The standards of the sages cannot be let into the hands of those who have surrendered the Vedic religion into the winds of the past. There are those in India still holding onto to the lamp; do your research there among the ones still struggling for the ideal and not in books or people who don't practice anything but preach everything for or against. Good wishes.

 

 

Excuse but can anyone explain to me what this guy wrote? For his post has nothing to do with what a wrote and makes no absolute sense it all. Speak English dear.

 

and YES i WIL BLAME OTHERS- THOSE WHO HAVE CAUSED MUCH SURFFERING TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T DESERVE IT AND NEVER DESRVED IT.

[Guest guest]

and why is it all the piece of shit Brahmins that want to stick up for caste? I have not met one Brahmin that has said you know what, there are people of my caste that has done a great deal bad to others. No, they all want to make excuses. They are no different then those uppity republican White who walk around with sticks up their ass-THEY ARE ONE AND SAME-EXCEPT WHITE PPL ARE BETTER LOOKNING THEN BRAHMINS, since Brahmins are short,puny and can't fight. So they can walk around with their puny insecure little asses and defend the caste system because they know that without it they ARE NOTHING. Shudras do ALL Tthe labor work and they are strong neough to KICK A BRAHMINS ASS and I hope Brahmins get what they deserve.

[Guest guest]

 

Since caste is an integral part of Hinduism, you cannot be Hindu without subscribing to this principle.

 

uh, how is it an integral part of Hinduism? it may be an integral part to your life, but the most spiritual Hindus in history have paid no attention to caste nonsense. And many Gurus have condemned it.. so their shisyas certainly aren't caught up in it.. and these people are definitely Hindu. So your statement is ignorant, since many Hindus, have caste aside the cruel caste system, especially in our modern time.

[Guest guest]

 

Read the Vedas, teach it to your children. Learn Sanskrit and become one with the Sanskrit culture. How much have you done, and how much are you going to do? This is not the day to blame others.

 

The caste system is not going to bow out depending on the modern Hindus: for it was based on rigour and not dilution, and for most Hindus of today, the ideal of God realization is mere mouthing if at all. The standards of the sages cannot be let into the hands of those who have surrendered the Vedic religion into the winds of the past. There are those in India still holding onto to the lamp; do your research there among the ones still struggling for the ideal and not in books or people who don't practice anything but preach everything for or against. Good wishes.

 

keeping the lamp of bigotry and discrimination burning?

 

Thank Lord Shiva, it is illegal to practice caste discrimination in temples in the west, so those who are fed up with caste bigotry should move to the west. They can follow Sanatana Dharma in peace away from the social politics, and they will be treated equal and judged based upon their behaviour, not their birth-status.

 

Lord Shiva appeared to founder of Kashmir Saivite sect, Abhinavagupta, and said the Paradvaita teachings are to be spread to all, regardless of gender, race or caste.

 

If God doesn't want us to judge based on caste, then who are you to, sir!!

 

Kashmir Saivite Tantra eschews any social hierarchies or caste structures - so if our looking for a non-caste biased path, here is one for you!

 

OM NAMAH SHIVAYA!

[Guest guest]

 

Since caste is an integral part of Hinduism, you cannot be Hindu without subscribing to this principle.

 

this poster, tackleberry, is a Christian propagandist. See this post of his:

 

audarya-fellowship.com/forums/world-review/413646-religion-responsible-israel-palestine-problem.html

 

he is just another Christian propagandist promoting casteism with the intent to divide or convert Hindus!

[Guest guest]

 

Excuse but can anyone explain to me what this guy wrote? For his post has nothing to do with what a wrote and makes no absolute sense it all. Speak English dear.

 

and YES i WIL BLAME OTHERS- THOSE WHO HAVE CAUSED MUCH SURFFERING TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT DON'T DESERVE IT AND NEVER DESRVED IT.

 

Sorry for my English. I meant the following: for your words to have credibility in religious circles, you must be practicing religion to a significant extent. This is because the setups designed by the Hindu Rishis were meant to guide the individual to the goal of God-realization. So unless the individual in his/her daily life has this aim of God, or Moksha, etc. as the primary factor and is working hard for that purpose, he/she will not be able to follow the spiritual science behind these setups, and in the modern context, inevitably will see wrong intentions. [The varna dharma can be understood by those (irrespective of varna) who live it from the dharma point of view, surrendering the fruits of their actions to God and have God-realization as their fundamental daily goal of life.]

 

What I meant about the blame of others was that in today's time, there is plenty of opportunity for sincere Hindus to learn and memorize basic Vedic chants like the Rudram & Chamakam, plenty of opportunity to learn Sanskrit and get deep into the scriptural studies. At least, this is the case for middle and upper class Hindus. I would sincerely encourage those of you who denounce the caste system to take up those jobs of that GROUP (Brahmins) you refer to. For as I said elsewhere, this is a job and has a definite social purpose. By taking bits and pieces, you might feel you enhance yourself spiritually, but that will not fulfill the social role that needs to be played by the Brahmanas.

 

I am all for educating everyone in the spirtual truths contained in the Vedas. This is imperative for our society. To learn the substance of the Vedas is one thing, and to learn to Vedas byheart and recite it everyday following a rigorous required lifestyle is another thing. The first part must be common property; the second need not. The second has a fixed traditional aspect that needs to be maintained and should not be diluted.

 

I am a Brahmana, but I walk around with pant and shirt and my hair cropped Western style. I work hard on the part of learning the substance of the Vedanta, but I fully know that I am not ready to take up the job of my varna. I will not get angry if I go to a Vedas class in South India and get kicked out; in fact I hope that will be the case until I can get in sync with the basic rules.

[Guest guest]

 

So they can walk around with their puny insecure little asses and defend the caste system because they know that without it they ARE NOTHING. Shudras do ALL Tthe labor work and they are strong neough to KICK A BRAHMINS ASS and I hope Brahmins get what they deserve.

 

I'm a person that believes that caste or varna should be determined by gunas, qualities and action rather than birth-family tradition. I believe this was the way it was originally intended then as society grew it became hereditary. I see nothing wrong with this belief and think it makes far more sense than the caste-by-birth idea. Those born into Brahmin families have to opportunity to a brahmin education and upbringing but can only be true brahmins if they possess the qualities of a Brahmin.

 

Some Hindu gurus have noted that the thought of caste determined by birth only, was the reason India was invaded by foreigners and enslaved by the Mughals and British - was that you had people born into Kshatriya families who didn't have the qualities of kshatriyas having to fight a battle when other castes who could fight and defend India were not encouraged to do so. It is interesting to note that two of India's greatest and most successful Historical emperors -Chandragupta and Asoka from the Mauryan dynasty were from Shudra familes but rose to great heights to become kings. These two were more better for India than many of the so-called born ksatriyas. Also you have the example of the great Maratha Shivaji who fought the Mughals, who some say was really from a shudra family. That shows that caste shouldn't be determined by birth.

 

As for born-Brahmins, it is usually them who uphold this caste-by-birth view. The thing is as there are alot less practicing Brahmins in this world, how can you possibly refer to the non-practicing Brahmins, the title of Brahmin? If they don't life the life of a Brahmin, they cannot be respected as true Brahmins. I know of some of these people who go into other professions to make alot of money and who live irreligious lives, yet they still want to be respected as Brahmins. It's like they expect you to bow down or something when they announce to you the words "I am a Brahmin". Then they look offended if you don't praise them. What is wrong with these people?

 

I have nothing againt the true Brahmins who try to live the life as I understand it is not an easy life. But those who take it up from other castes who have the qualities of a Brahmin should not be discouraged as they are doing some good for Hindu society.

[Guest guest]

There is some misunderstanding here. The caste system has *nothing* to do with the varna system, be clear about that. The varnas are only 4 - but castes in India run into the thousands. Go read a book...

 

The caste system in India has nothing to do with Brahmanas. Besides Brahmanas are a very tiny part of the country's population (less than 5%). Why whine about them? If they are smart enough to get places, then they deserve it. Those who cannot, sit back and complain as in the sour grapes incident.

[Guest guest]

 

The caste system in India has nothing to do with Brahmanas. Besides Brahmanas are a very tiny part of the country's population (less than 5%).

[Guest guest]

Everyone should be equally respected. Every part of the society is just as valuable.

 

Bigotry and Pride are some of the greatest sins there are. They lead to hatred, suffering and oppression; not the spiritual betterment of the people. No one who call themselves a devotee of God, will practice any form of bigotry. We are all equal spirit-souls, and beloved jivas of God.

 

People who believe in Caste are not following Vedic teachings, they are following modern social customs. Caste system has NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharma. There was an original varna-system that has long since been destroyed in the Kali Yuga. Caste has nothing to do with that system, it's an embarrasment to confuse the two.

[Guest guest]

 

Bigotry and Pride are some of the greatest sins there are. They lead to hatred, suffering and oppression; not the spiritual betterment of the people. No one who call themselves a devotee of God, will practice any form of bigotry. We are all equal spirit-souls, and beloved jivas of God.

 

People who believe in Caste are not following Vedic teachings, they are following modern social customs. Caste system has NOTHING to do with Sanatana Dharma. There was an original varna-system that has long since been destroyed in the Kali Yuga. Caste has nothing to do with that system, it's an embarrasment to confuse the two.

 

I don't think it is that simple to classify the "caste system" as having Nothing with our religion. The present day caste/jati system as an evolution from a more ideal varna dharma has its roots in the religious dharma, and as such it may be dealt with by trying to revitalize it.

 

Most of us follow modern social customs, yet with an insight into spiritual/religious truths, we try to bring our customs within the religious framework. So with the varna system.

 

Now the part (by Number 2) on "caste by birth" is tricky, and I don't think that social custom should/could be removed by the root and branch method. There are lots of good things that are preserved in such a system, and we cannot afford to lose them by talking in an ideal manner.

 

Varna-based orthodoxy (including when based on birth) is not “bigotry” in itself. An orthodox and spiritual person aspires to follow the dharma of the varna of his/her birth, in compliance with the Hindu shastras (as they see it) and in accordance to their traditions. They see it as abiding by the duties they are to do for the society and their own spiritual upliftment. They do not hold the idea of high and low with regard to other varnas but have mutual respect and understanding.

 

We must strengthen the Hindu infrastructure by re-infusing it with spirituality, thus removing the weeds of bigotry, etc. The spiritual base, as I said before, must be common property; but let those who hold the idea that varna based on birth must be maintained to do so. Our first emphasis must be in showing how such a system would be in the ideal setup and thus attacking at places where its followers are misrepresenting it. Our point of attack should not simply be the birth-based criterion for this basic structure maintains many a cultural and Hindu element. We want to create an environment where the Sudra worker and Brahmana vedic scholar both know the essence of the Gita, where the Sudra does not feel inferior for not wearing the sacred thread AND where the Brahmana does not feel insecure for wearing it (as is today’s phenomenon).

 

As for Sudras wanting to become Brahmanas in line of work, if it is true, then we should encourage it through modern organizations such as the Arya samaj (as someone suggested) but not by denouncing the traditional matams (as the Shankara matam). Those who present the traditional version are important for they do so from the spiritual angle as well. But I will tell you my sincere opinion: if at all following the Brahmana’s work is respected in today’s society, most of the Brahmanas that people enjoy criticizing would never have run away from it. The Brahmana’s work is not a business venture nor is it something that our good governments will spend millions on (except when it profits them for highlighting the caste issues and getting votes). Moreover the actual Brahmana’s life is filled with rules and regulations like a military life, except the necessity of it is hardly recognized and hence again not profitable. It survives (where it does) to this day primarily because of the birth-based system and the dharma notions that are still being upheld by orthodox institutions; this is one reason why Brahmanas (even those who cannot follow it themselves) insist on the birth-based system. 1. They feel the Brahmana’s life ideal is very important for all Hindu society 2. Modern society will not/cannot ensure its survival without diluting the standards to an un-redeemable extent.

 

I agree that the rigorous/spiritual aspect of the Brahmana's life which he/she is expected to maintain by Law is actually the ideal for one and all. So a Sudra can also possess the same spiritual maturity as is often associated with the Brahmana. Does the Sudra then become a Brahmana? NO. The Brahmana's work includes many a specific requirement (as I cited in the previous post) that need not be everyone's duty, and vise-versa. We should quit thinking of this in the high/low manner.

 

There are other varnas/jathis that also hold to their traditional (birth-based) dharmas and believe that it is the right thing to do. We should encourage the system where it functions well and guide it to correction where it is failing. Spiritual ambition should be seen as a common thing, and we should not emphasize varna/caste in this regard. That is, that aspect of the Brahmana's life which he/she is expected to maintain by Law is actually the ideal for one and all. (Read also the other post "Modern Castes for modern Hindus" that I will post).