Literal understanding of Bhagavatam

[Guest guest]

 

Is the Guru all-knowing? If my Spiritual Master tells me the moon is closer, and your Spiritual Master tells you the moon is farther, who is right? and does this mean one of them is not a true Spiritual Master, since they contradicted each other on the moon distance?

 

the cosmology of the Bhagavat is not up for contention between different gurus.

The Bhagavat says and has been confirmed by Madhvacarya,Vijayatirtha and other great acharyas, that the Moom is further than the sun.

If your guru says the sun is closer than the Moon then he is not following the version of the Bhagavat shastra.

 

Any true acharya in the parampara would have to follow the version of the Bhagavat, even in modern science tries to say that the Bhagavat is wrong.

 

Acharyas follow shastra not science.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Bhagavat says and has been confirmed by Madhvacarya,Vijayatirtha and other great acharyas, that the Moom is further than the sun..

 

and WHERE precisely in the Bhagavatam TEXT does it say so?

 

lets look at some verses. again - we are talking about the Sun and Moon as planets in our physical world.

 

in our physical world things are subject to our sensory examination.

 

and in case you forgot:

 

WHERE ARE THE 80,000 miles high Himalayas in our physical world?

 

untill you answer that, all your talk about sun and moon is sentiment and misplaced blind faith.

[Guest guest]

 

and WHERE precisely in the Bhagavatam TEXT does it say so?

 

lets look at some verses. again - we are talking about the Sun and Moon as planets in our physical world.

 

in our physical world things are subject to our sensory examination.

 

and in case you forgot:

 

WHERE ARE THE 80,000 miles high Himalayas in our physical world?

 

untill you answer that, all your talk about sun and moon is sentiment and misplaced blind faith.

 

so, is Kulapavana saying that Srila Prabhupada dreamed-up this idea that the moon is further than the Sun.

Are you suggesting that Srila Prabhupada just manufactured some bizarre theory that the Moon is further than the Sun?

 

 

and WHERE precisely in the Bhagavatam TEXT does it say so?

 

I am not doing your homework for you. You need to read the book yourself.

Hearing it from me won't prove anthing.

[Kulapavana]

 

so, is Kulapavana saying that Srila Prabhupada dreamed-up this idea that the moon is further than the Sun.

Are you suggesting that Srila Prabhupada just manufactured some bizarre theory that the Moon is further than the Sun?

 

 

 

no. in my opinion he simply made another educated guess with that theory. just like the one from "Easy Journey" where he says that newly discovered anti-matter is actually spirit. he used these theories in his preaching to make a point. thats all.

 

or maybe he never made any educated guesses in his statements?

[Kulapavana]

SB 5.20.13. PURPORT

"From the descriptions in this verse, we can make an educated guess about the nature of the flames on the moon."

 

I see nothing wrong with making educated guesses on such topics. And to me, Srila Prabhupada is still my guru, even if he may be wrong on some of such guesses. These things do not diminish his value to me. But we should not pretend such statements are "absolute truth" if he himself reveals their true nature.

[Guest guest]

 

no. in my opinion he simply made another educated guess with that theory. just like the one from "Easy Journey" where he says that newly discovered anti-matter is actually spirit. he used these theories in his preaching to make a point. thats all.

 

or maybe he never made any educated guesses in his statements?

 

there is no proof that Srila Prabhupada was referring to "anti-matter" in the way that modern science has postulated.

 

In fact, the way that Srila Prabhuapda explains it, he is not confirming the scientific postulation at all.

Prabhupada wrote on Easy Journey....

 

The difficulty lies in the fact that the scientists' conception of antimatter extends only to another variety of material energy, whereas the real antimatter must be entirely antimaterial. Matter as it is constituted is subjected to annihilation, but antimatter--if it is to be free from all material symptoms--must also be free from annihilation, by its very nature. If matter is destructible or separable, antimatter must be indestructible and inseparable. We shall try to discuss these propositions from the angle of authentic scriptural vision.

 

 

So, don't go blaming Srila Prabhupada because you have failed to listen to his actual teachings and have jumped to conclusions based on flimsy evidence.

[Guest guest]

 

the cosmology of the Bhagavat is not up for contention between different gurus.

The Bhagavat says and has been confirmed by Madhvacarya,Vijayatirtha and other great acharyas, that the Moom is further than the sun.

If your guru says the sun is closer than the Moon then he is not following the version of the Bhagavat shastra.

 

Any true acharya in the parampara would have to follow the version of the Bhagavat, even in modern science tries to say that the Bhagavat is wrong.

 

Do you know the Bhagatavam means the PHYSICAL moon on our level, or the Moon on the astral level?

 

Vedic writings say many things; and are speaking about metaphysical dimensions much of the time.

 

Do you know any Vaishnava Gurus that state the Physical Himalayas are 18,000 miles high?!

[theist]

 

Well, Believer in God (theist), if you dont care ("Nor do I care"), why take so much devoted care to overhasty comment "Prabhupada may have been just wrong"? If this is your level of understanding then you clearly cement that if this is wrong other things might very likely be also wrong. If other statements Prabhupada made could be also wrong then why dont you reject Prabhupada's literature alltogether and draw a clear conclusion? Isnt it exhausting to judge upon every statement Prabhupada made, this is ok, oh wait, this sounds strange?

IMO actually you dont need a spiritual master, why bother?

 

You need to reread my post, carefully this time with an attitude of actually wanting to hear what it says instead of looking to make a counter argument.

 

As far as your opinion of my needing a spiritual master of not, do you really think your opinion matters to me in the slightest?

[Kulapavana]

 

there is no proof that Srila Prabhupada was referring to "anti-matter" in the way that modern science has postulated.

 

In fact, the way that Srila Prabhuapda explains it, he is not confirming the scientific postulation at all.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote in his letter:

 

 

 

Delhi

28th March, 1960

 

 

 

 

Dr. Y.G. Naik M.Sc., Ph.D.,

Principal Gujarat College

Dean, Faculty of Science,

Gujarat University Ahmedabad

 

Dear Dr. Naik,

 

Your letter dated 20 March 1960 redirected from my old Qrs. (Vrindaban) is duly in hand and I am very much encouraged to go through the contents which are full of valuable informations. The subject matter discussed in my article under reference is authorised as far as it refers to the conclusion of the Geeta.

 

I may also inform you that my concept of anti-matter is exactly what you call it anti-material. Technically it may be that I could not express the exact word used by the physicist but I have tried to explain the word anti-matter in the light and sense of what you say as anti-material which is spirit. "

 

so.... which is it?

 

[Guest guest]

If we are having car trouble, and want to find out what is wrong with our car, do we go to our Spiritual Master or to a Car Mechanic?

 

If we want to improve our golf swing, do we go to our Spiritual Master for golf pointers, or do we go to a qualified Golf expert?

 

The Spiritual Master is our SPIRITUAL guide, but for mundane things, we have other guides and teachers.

 

We would not ask our Golf Teacher about chakras, the nature of the Soul, the spiritual world, etc.. nor would we ask our Spiritual Master about golf, how to fix cars, etc.

[theist]

True anti-matter would have to be spirit by definition.

 

Matter is dull, inert, lacks consciousness.

Spirit is defined by consciousness, is sentient and can even increase it's knowing base. Chit

 

Matter is ever changing with elements merging in and out of each other constantly.

Spirit is eternally unchanged. SAT

 

Matter cannot experience joy or even sorrow.

Spirit can experience joy and sorrow as well as unlimited spiritual bliss. ANANDA

 

Without these attributes of spirit whatever the scientists find and label as anti-matter is really just another form of matter. My speculation is that they may be sensing and theorizung on some type of astral matter which appears as anti-matter to them.

[theist]

 

Is the Guru all-knowing? If my Spiritual Master tells me the moon is closer, and your Spiritual Master tells you the moon is farther, who is right? and does this mean one of them is not a true Spiritual Master, since they contradicted each other on the moon distance?

 

Couldn't help but notice how this question was so easily ignored. It is a perfect question for this debate and should be dealt with head on.

 

My opinon is they could both by fully Spiritual Masters in Krsna consciousness and hold different opinions on the moon distance from earth.

[Kulapavana]

<CENTER>Anti-Material World or the Kingdom of Godhead</CENTER>

 

<CENTER>Now recognised by progressive science

 

</CENTER><CENTER>Edited and Founded Under Direct Order of

His Divine Grace Sri Srimad Bhakti-Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada

by Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta

 

</CENTER> Delhi, Saturday 20th February, 1960

Modern materialistic science has discovered anti-material world which was so long unknown to the wranglers of gross-materialism. In the Times of India dt. 27.10.59 a news service, dated at Stockholm 26.10.59, was published as follows:--

"Two American atomic scientists were awarded 1959 Nobel Physics Prize to-day for the Discovery of Anti-Proton, proving that matter exists in two forms as particles and anti-particles."

"They are Italian-born Dr. Emilio Segre 69 and Dr. Owen Chamberlain, born in San Francisco..............."

"According to one of the fundamental assumptions of the new theory, there may exist another world or an antiworld built up of anti-matter. This anti (material) world would consist of atoms and sub-atoms particles spinning in reverse orbits to those of the world we know. If these two worlds would ever clash, they would both be annihilated in one blinding flash."

In this statement of the modern scientists the following things are accepted:--

1. There is an anti-material atom or particle which is another form of matter but it is made of antiqualities of material atoms.

2. There is another anti-material world than this material world of which we have got certain extent of experience.

3. These two different worlds may clash at a certain period which may bring in annihilation of both the worlds (?) Out of these three items, we, students of theistic science, agree with the items No. (1) and (2) but we cannot agree with the (3) item because matter as it is constituted is subjected to annihilation but anti-matter which is freed from all sorts of material symptoms must be also free from being annihilated from its very nature of existence. If matter is destructible or separable anti-matter must be indestructible and and inseparable. We shall try to discuss the above three points from the angle of authentic scriptural vision:

[Kulapavana]

 

So, don't go blaming Srila Prabhupada because you have failed to listen to his actual teachings and have jumped to conclusions based on flimsy evidence.

 

I think I have presented my point of view with these quotes.

 

And I dont blame Prabhupada at all. I blame apologists like you for creating myths and then lots of disappointed devotes when they realize they are just myths. Think about it.

[Guest guest]

 

The Spiritual Master is our SPIRITUAL guide, but for mundane things, we have other guides and teachers.

 

We would not ask our Golf Teacher about chakras, the nature of the Soul, the spiritual world, etc.. nor would we ask our Spiritual Master about golf, how to fix cars, etc.

 

Somehow I have a feeling that Srila Prabhupada, along with the author of the Srimad Bhagavatam, were quite aware of these facts. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the "Spotless Purana." It is completely transcendental, from start to finish. There is nothing mundane about The Srimad Bhagavatam nor the Bhaktivendanta purports to The Srimad Bhagavatam. If we view something as being "mundane" in this transcendental book, then that is our defective vision. Surely there is a transcendental reason why Vedic Cosmology is discussed in the Bhagavatam. If we're unable to understand the reasons why, then perhaps it is a test of our shraddha, or the lack thereof. Surely Srila Prabhupada would have explained in his purports that these topics were "mundane" if in fact that were the case.

[theist]

"Spotless Purana" I believe refers to fact that Krsna lila in Vrndavan is included.

 

Open to correction if I am wrong. I believe I read this in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam.

[Kulapavana]

 

"Spotless Purana" I believe refers to fact that Krsna lila in Vrndavan is included.

 

Open to correction if I am wrong. I believe I read this in the introduction to Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

some say that "spotless" refers primarily to the spotless presentation of Krsna-lila and spiritual philosophy of bhakti - without any contamination of karma or jnana.

[Guest guest]

SB 5.20.38: Learned scholars who are free from mistakes, illusions and propensities to cheat have thus described the planetary systems and their particular symptoms, measurements and locations. With great deliberation, they have established the truth that the distance between Sumeru and the mountain known as Lokaloka is one fourth of the diameter of the universe - or, in other words, 125,000,000 yojanas [1 billion miles].

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.26.38: In the beginning [the Second and Third Cantos of Srimad-Bhagavatam] I have already described how one can progress on the path of liberation. In the Puranas the vast universal existence, which is like an egg divided into fourteen parts, is described. This vast form is considered the external body of the Lord, created by His energy and qualities. It is generally called the virata-rupa. If one reads the description of this external form of the Lord with great faith, or if one hears about it or explains it to others to propagate bhagavata-dharma, or Krishna consciousness, his faith and devotion in spiritual consciousness, Krishna consciousness, will gradually increase. Although developing this consciousness is very difficult, by this process one can purify himself and gradually come to an awareness of the Supreme Absolute Truth.

 

PURPORT

 

The Krishna consciousness movement is pushing forward the publication of Srimad-Bhagavatam, as explained especially for the understanding of the modern civilized man, to awaken him to his original consciousness. Without this consciousness, one melts into complete darkness. Whether one goes to the upper planetary systems or the hellish planetary systems, he simply wastes his time. Therefore one should hear of the universal position of the virata form of the Lord as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. That will help one save himself from material conditional life and gradually elevate him to the path of liberation so that he can go back home, back to Godhead.

[Guest guest]

 

I think I have presented my point of view with these quotes.

 

And I dont blame Prabhupada at all. I blame apologists like you for creating myths and then lots of disappointed devotes when they realize they are just myths. Think about it.

 

Srila Prabhupada doesn't need any apologists to defend his transcendental teachings from mundane viewpoints like yours.

Myth?

Now, I guess you are saying that I am the one who invented the concept that the Moom is further than the Sun etc.

 

Please present to the members of the forum any myth that I have manufactured.

 

To say that you blame those who present Srila Prabhupada's version and not Srila Prabhupada is just a very sly way of saying that you blame Srila Prabhupada for making false propoganda.

[Guest guest]

 

What benefit is there in having doubts in Srila Prabhupada, his statements and his books?

What benefit do we get by putting our faith in sceintists and finding fault in Srila Prabhupada's teachings?

 

What benefit is there in just having faith in Srila Prabhupada and not second-guessing so many things he has said?

 

There is clearly no benefit (spiritually) in putting our faith in scientists and saying "Prabhupada was just wrong".

 

There is clearly much benefit in putting our faith in Srila Prabhupada and NOT second-guessing him and accusing him of so many erroneous statements and opinions.

 

Most usually the arguments against things Srila Prabhupada said really have no spiritual benefit and open the gate to finding fault in Srila Prabhupada.

 

There is no harm in putting our faith in Srila Prabhupada and rejecting scientific speuclations.

 

There can be MUCH harm in putting our faith in scientists and thinking that we know better than Srila Prabhupada and so many things he commented on.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.26.38:

If one reads the description of this external form of the Lord with great faith, or if one hears about it or explains it to others to propagate bhagavata-dharma, or Krishna consciousness, his faith and devotion in spiritual consciousness, Krishna consciousness, will gradually increase. Although developing this consciousness is very difficult, by this process one can purify himself and gradually come to an awareness of the Supreme Absolute Truth.

 

you do not come to developing this difficult awareness of Lord's virat-rupa by mere parrot-like repetition. you need to study the text from all points of view (including logic) and compare it to observable reality. the faith part is here: we all know Bhagavatam speaks the truth. but how do we understand that truth? that is our discussion here.

 

Bhagavatam also says Himalayas are 80,000 miles high. I certainly believe that. But the details are vastly more complex as the Himalayas in our world are not 80,000 miles high. Thus the discussion. If you cant comprehend that, stay out of this discussion as you are wasting your time as well as mine.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada doesn't need any apologists to defend his transcendental teachings from mundane viewpoints like yours.

Myth?

Now, I guess you are saying that I am the one who invented the concept that the Moom is further than the Sun etc.

 

How are Kulapavana's viewpoints mundane? He has presented many interesting viewpoints that harmonize a deeper, metaphysical understanding with the statements of the Bhagavatam. It's you who are stuck in looking at everything from this LIMITED perspective of our 3rd dimensional Universe...

 

If you think the Himalayas are LITERALLY 18,000 miles high, in OUR Physical Universe, you are clearly delusional.

 

 

Please present to the members of the forum any myth that I have manufactured.

 

I assume you are the same Ronald Mcdonald/ASStronaut poster? If so, you have never posted ONE SHRED of evidence to support your claims that the moon is further. All we have heard from you is loud rhetoric. You don't care about the facts, just clinging to your sacred cows.

 

 

To say that you blame those who present Srila Prabhupada's version and not Srila Prabhupada is just a very sly way of saying that you blame Srila Prabhupada for making false propoganda.

 

NOT ONE poster has accused Srila Prabhupada of spreading propaganda.. this is more loud and divisive rhetoric.

[Guest guest]

An excellent post from gHari on another thread (reposted here for those who will not read that thread):

 

The following question and answer are taken from "Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy" by Dr. Richard L. Thompson (SadApUta dasa) which was published in 1989 by the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (used with permission). SadApUta dasa is a founding member of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, the scientific branch of ISKCON.

[From Chapter Eight - Questions and Answers]

Q: Using radar and lasers, scientists have recently obtained very accurate estimates of the earth-moon distance. This distance is about 238,000 miles. How do you reconcile this with Vedic calculations?

A: According to sUrya-siddhAnta [see footnote], the distance from the earth globe to the moon is about 258,000 miles. This is in reasonable agreement with the modern value.

Footnote: Several times in the Caitanya-caritAmRta, Srila Prabhupada refers to the sUrya-siddhAnta which was spoken by a messenger from the sun-god, sUrya, at the end of the last Satya-yuga. It was translated into Bengali by Srila BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI. In the Caitanya-caritAmRta (Adi 1.3.8p), Prabhupada writes:

These calculations are given in the authentic astronomy book known as the sUrya-siddhAnta. This book was compiled by the great professor of astronomy and mathematics Bimal Prasad Datta, later known as BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI GosvAmi, who was our merciful spiritual master. He was honored with the title SiddhAnta SarasvatI for writing sUrya-siddhAnta, and the title GosvAmi MahArAja was added when he accepted sannyAsa, the renounced order of life.

When we consider that the Bhagavatam says that the moon is 100,000 yojanas above the rays of the sun can we really think the moon is 800,000 miles farther than the sun, in light of that 'authentic astronomy' book sUrya-siddhAnta?

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada doesn't need any apologists to defend his transcendental teachings from mundane viewpoints like yours.

Myth?

Now, I guess you are saying that I am the one who invented the concept that the Moom is further than the Sun etc.

 

Please present to the members of the forum any myth that I have manufactured.

 

To say that you blame those who present Srila Prabhupada's version and not Srila Prabhupada is just a very sly way of saying that you blame Srila Prabhupada for making false propoganda.

 

the myth is that Srila Prabhupada could never be wrong on anything - and you are one of the people who create and maintain that myth.

 

you said I was wrong when I said that at one time SP considered anti-matter discovery to be a scientific discovery of spirit - and I showed you with Prabhupada quotes that this was indeed the case (Anti-Material World or the Kingdom of Godhead - Now recognised by progressive science).

 

did you not write (as you "guests" are afraid(?) to use your names we can't tell you apart)?

------------------

"there is no proof that Srila Prabhupada was referring to "anti-matter" in the way that modern science has postulated.... So, don't go blaming Srila Prabhupada because you have failed to listen to his actual teachings and have jumped to conclusions based on flimsy evidence.

------------------

 

that was your effort to keep the myth alive. the only false propaganda is on your part. so what that SP was possibly wrong on the anti-matter thing or the moon thing? It does not bother me. I never believed your myth because Prabhupada himself said that he was not omniscient.

[Guest guest]

 

Bhagavatam also says Himalayas are 80,000 miles high. I certainly believe that.

 

As do I. I have never spoken otherwise. Sounds like a strawman to me.

 

 

If you cant comprehend that, stay out of this discussion as you are wasting your time as well as mine.

 

Please relax. I never claimed to be able comprehend it. Many of these descriptions, if not most, are beyond our comprehension. Hence the need for shraddha, (as opposed to outright rejection in favor of what the material scientists say.) The quotes above are self-explanatory and are indeed relevant to this discussion. But you're right, it probably is a waste of my time to discuss this any further. You are not addressing the quotes made above. Instead, you are making strawman arguments, and that is certainly a waste of my time, and I would think, yours as well.

 

Cheers.