Literal understanding of Bhagavatam

[Guest guest]

 

Bhagavatam also says Himalayas are 80,000 miles high. I certainly believe that. But the details are vastly more complex as the Himalayas in our world are not 80,000 miles high. Thus the discussion. If you cant comprehend that, stay out of this discussion as you are wasting your time as well as mine.

 

This proves clearly to us that the numbers given in the Bhagavatam can't possibly be talking about OUR dimension. No one can dispute that the Himalayan elevation number must be speaking about other dimensions. So why do these same people try to dispute that the moon distance is also speaking about other dimensions?! They take the Himalayan numbers as metaphysical, but cling to literalism with the moon calculations???

[Kulapavana]

 

Many of these descriptions, if not most, are beyond our comprehension. Hence the need for shraddha, (as opposed to outright rejection in favor of what the material scientists say.) The quotes above are self-explanatory and are indeed relevant to this discussion. But you're right, it probably is a waste of my time to discuss this any further. You are not addressing the quotes made above. Instead, you are making strawman arguments, and that is certainly a waste of my time, and I would think, yours as well...

 

I wonder who makes strawman arguments here?

 

you say your quotes are self-explanatory and mine you can not comprehend... fine. but do not think everybody is like you, or should become just like you in your "faith"...

 

you are just like one of them Bible-thumpers in your "faith". Yes, they have "faith", and lots of it, bordering on plain stupidity. Prabhupada always challenged such blind faith, closed to all logic and arguments.

[Kulapavana]

 

According to sUrya-siddhAnta [see footnote], the distance from the earth globe to the moon is about 258,000 miles. This is in reasonable agreement with the modern value.

Footnote: Several times in the Caitanya-caritAmRta, Srila Prabhupada refers to the sUrya-siddhAnta which was spoken by a messenger from the sun-god, sUrya, at the end of the last Satya-yuga. It was translated into Bengali by Srila BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI.

 

Perhaps Srila Prabhupada never read that book. Vedic astrology operates within framework of this physical universe and it's calculations and views on planet placement often paralel modern science.

[Guest guest]

 

you are just like one of them Bible-thumpers in your "faith". Yes, they have "faith", and lots of it, bordering on plain stupidity. Prabhupada always challenged such blind faith, closed to all logic and arguments.

 

Who are you arguing with? Me? Or Srila Prabhupada. I quoted directly from the Bhagavatam, including Srila Prabhupada's purport. It was not a direct reply to you. Believe it or not, I have much respect for you. I consider you my prabhu. If we were to meet in person, I am sure that we would be friends. I purposefully quoted from Sastra without adding my own interpretation, to see what kind of response it would ilicit. The response was a direct attack on me, and not on the quotes I provided. Hence, "strawman." Or "ad-hominem", or both.

 

Please try to understand the relevance, rather than explode into angriness. There have been numerous people here who REJECT outright what the Bhagavatam says in regards to the make-up of this Universe. They reject outright the scientific explanations of the Bhagavatam in favor of the explanations given by the modern material scientists. The quotes I offered definitively refuted that notion. I was curious as to how the "modern scientific" crowd would respond to the quotes I offered. As expected, they couldn't respond; rather, they attacked me personally, even asking me to leave. That speaks volumes.

 

Kulapavana prabhu. Please forgive my seeming disagreement with you. Please accept my most humble obeisances. I really sense that we are, for the most part, in total agreement. I just wanted to demonstrate from Sastra that there is a purpose for the description of the Universe in the Fifth Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Virata Rupa. Also, to show that the Bhagavatam itself, the Spotless Purana, declares that the description of this Virata Rupa has been determined by great sages who are free from illusion, mistakes, and the propensity to cheat. This is an extremely important point. Many devotees are under the impression that the Bhagavatam is *wrong* in its descriptions of the Universe, that the Bhagavatam is only good for *spiritual* topics, not for explaining supposedly *material* topics, such as the Virata Rupa (which isn't actually material.)

 

But as you wish. Give a dog a bad name, and hang it. (Or something like that.)

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please forgive me for any offenses.

[Guest guest]

Can anyone explain what benefit is derived in putting our faith in scientists and finding fault in Srila Prabhupada?

Will believing in scientists help one advance spiritually and develop suddha-bhakti?

Will believing in the scientists help one to develop vraja-bhakti?

 

If a devotee from Goloka came to Earth to teach about Krishna, would he support the scientists and preach what they say?

 

Is there a shred of spiritual benefit in believing the scientists?

What does it prove?

What is the spiritual benefit?

 

How pleased will someone be with themselves if they can prove that scientists know more about the mundane universe than Srila Prabhupada?

 

Do you really think you can please Srila Prabhupada by making him out to be a fool who made so many faulty claims?

 

Would you challenge Srila Prabhupada to his face and tell him he is wrong?

 

Clearly, it is demonic to put faith in scientists and find fault in the pure devotee from Goloka who came to teach love of Krishna.

 

Are these scientists that you are putting your faith in going to take you back to Godhead?

[bija]

I have been following this discussion over the past few days, and I keep recalling something I read a long time ago. It was a transcript of a discussion with BR Sridhara Maharaja talking about this very topic of the moon and sun distances in the Bhagavatam.

 

I wish so much my memory could recall where and what I read but I could'nt. So I just did an internet search instead. I found this article at www.isvara.org with a snippet of BR Sridhara Maharaja's quote and perspective.

 

No flaming please, but I just feel in my heart that Bhagavatam science is much deeper than fundamentalist vision. Was Srila Prabhupada a fundamentalist. I don't think so.

 

He possibly took a certain approach with the said topics to draw us away from sourcing our faith from mundane scientists. Spirit being the source of all, is the root of the material universe. With the ascending process of science it is very difficult to ascertain spirit. But with full realisation of spirit, I am sure mundane phenomena would be intuitively known.

 

 

The Sun and the Moon

"Prabhupada wanted to undermine faith in the religion of modern science and to that end he ridiculed science and sought to expose the shallowness of the scientific community's own arguments against the existence of God."

Q. Devotees sometimes cite the Bhagavatam version that the moon is farther away from the earth than the sun (contradicting a fact known to the Greeks almost 2,500 years ago). I have found that this unscientific nonsense turns away many people and have warned devotees without a thorough scientific background not to embarrass us with such irrational statements. What is your opinion on this issue, and is there an allegorical way to view the descriptions of the universe presented in Srimad-Bhagavatam and other Vedic literatures?

A. The Srimad-Bhagavatam's description of cosmology is according to the vision of Sukadeva. It may be taken either that the world was shown to Sukadeva to be as it is described in the Bhagavatam--a particular angle of vision, a subjective reality--or that he is merely recounting what the prominent understanding of the time was.

With regard to the latter opinion, the text of the Bhagavatam itself lends credence to this outlook. When asked by Pariksit about the nature of the material world--the glory of Visnu maya--Sukadeva replied that essentially this world is a transformation of the three gunas, nothing more--bhagavato maya-guna-vibhuteh. He goes on to say that no one can describe this world perfectly, vacasa vadhigantum alam vibhudhayusapi purusas. As the sage continues his explanation, he describes it as being based on the estimations of learned persons of that period, pramana-laksanato vyakhyatah.

Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja suggested the following way of relating to the Bhagavatam's description of the sun being closer to the earth than the moon. He said, "Politically speaking, Russia is closer to India than America or Pakistan. Its nearness is calculated in terms of the friendly relations, or influence. So I like to say we may take in that way. Not in physical distance. Sun’s influence over the earth is first, next that of moon, next that of Mars. In this way perhaps we may proceed. I got some hint in that direction. If we are challenged we may take this course. But my ultimate basis of argument is that it is subjective. It is like a hypnotizer ... what the Lord showed Sukadeva at that time, it is described like that. It is in his hands, subjective control. Not that the objective will control us to see a thing. But the subject as he likes can make a show like a hypnotizer. That is my view. So everything can be explained. The higher seer is controlling our capacity to see anything. What one man sees another man won't see. Subjective control. The Visvarupa darsana in Bhagavad-gita, what is it? Krsna says, 'Arjuna, you see this. I am so and so.' And Arjuna is seeing that. It's not that the object is controlling the experience of the subject. But the super-subject (Krsna) is controlling the experience of the lower subject (the jiva soul). That is my understanding. Everything is controlled by the higher. The root (consciousness) is above, not the fossil (matter). 'The fossil (matter) will control my vision,' no such mean law I am ready to accept."

I also discussed this issue in a previous Sanga called “The Relativity of Scripture.”

http://swami.org/sanga/arch ives/pages/volume_three/m165.html

Therein I wrote:

"Many subjects are discussed throughout the Bhagavatam that shed light on its principal topic (satyam param) either directly or indirectly (anvayad itaratah). Topics such as psychology and astronomy, while discussed in the Bhagavatam, are not the primary focus of the text. These topics are introduced for reasons other than making definitive statements on the topics themselves. The Bhagavata discusses the structure of the universe for the purpose of stressing that the material manifestation is a fathomless, endless transformation of the gunas (maya-guna-vibhuteh) and thus glorious as the sakti of God appearing as his mystical, venerable Visvarupa. Sukadeva Goswami does not make the claim that his description of the universe is definitive. Indeed, he says the opposite: kastham manasa vacasa vadhigantum alam vibudhayusapi purusa, "No one can possibly explain or perfectly conceive of the nature of the material universe even in a lifetime of Lord Brahma." (SB. 5.16.4)

Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna-samhita explains the relativity of scripture, the difference between scriptural topics that are subject to human logic and those that are not. Psychology and astronomy fall into the former category.

Krsna dasa once asked Prabhupada why there is a discrepancy between the views of Bhagavatam and modern scientists regarding the moon and other planets. To this Srila Prabhupada replied, "These things are not very important, we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? So we are concerned with Krsna Consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Letter 72-11-07)

Here Prabhupada explains that literally accepting the explanation of the material universe found in the Bhagavatam is not essential to one's spiritual life. Indeed, the entire explanation is nonessential.

 

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[Guest guest]

Whatever.

My point is that we should just happily and faithfully support Srila Prabhupada instead of trying to prove him wrong on the strength of scientific explanations.

The mood of vraja bhakti has nothing to do with listening to scientific postulations and then trying to prove the Vaishnava acharyas as wrong based upon what these demons say.

 

We don't care what the scientists say.

That is all just so much explotation of the universe for sense gratification.

 

We just humbly and faithfully support and defend our beloved gurudeva from the attacks of demons who want to make him out to be a fool.

 

it is not BLIND faith because we choose to follow our guru and reject what demonic scientists say.

 

It is BLIND FAITH to offend the Vaishnava acharyas while we pick and choose what part of his teachings we accept and what part we classify as ignorance.

[bija]

 

My point is that we should just happily and faithfully support Srila Prabhupada instead of trying to prove him wrong on the strength of scientific explanations. quote by guest

 

Yes indeed guest. Faith such as this is very wise and uncomplicated.

When I first read about the sun and moon in Bhagavatam my faith was challenged. Why?

Because it is small faith I have.

 

So I took a different course than just acceptance and researched into the why's.

To quote BR Sridhara Maharaja in the previous post..

.If we are challenged we may take this course.

In reference to his teaching on the said subject.

[theist]

 

Can anyone explain what benefit is derived in putting our faith in scientists and finding fault in Srila Prabhupada?

Will believing in scientists help one advance spiritually and develop suddha-bhakti?

Will believing in the scientists help one to develop vraja-bhakti?

 

Will believing the universe is only 4 billion miles in diameter, or the moon is further from the sun, help you develop Vraja-bhakti?

 

I accept that Krsna is the light in all luminous objects including the Moon. I accept the moon as well as every other object in the universe floats in space under the inconceivable energy of Krsna. That is all I need to know about the Moon.

[Guest guest]

 

Will believing the universe is only 4 billion miles in diameter, or the moon is further from the sun, help you develop Vraja-bhakti?

 

 

who told you it wasn't and were these people suddha-bhaktas?

will paying attention to what they say help you in your faith in the acharya?

 

scientific talk is a place of pilgrimage for crows.

 

where did you hear such things?

 

Did you make a pilgrimage to the crow convention?

 

Are you going to let the talks of the crow convention convince you that the pure devotee was stupid and naive?

 

What the crows say at their convention has no place in a Vaishnava discussion.

 

If you want to bring this crow katha into the Vaishnava forum, then that is your own problem and there is certainly nothing anyone here can do to help you.

 

Scientific knowledge is a rubbish heap and garbage dump.

 

If you want to partake of that feast then go ahead, but I hope you don't mind if I opt out of that convention.

[theist]

 

Is there a shred of spiritual benefit in believing the scientists?

What does it prove?

What is the spiritual benefit?

 

I get much benefit listening to the scientists discuss their latest discoveries. Hearing such things simply expand my puny conception of God's glories. I am not in the least concerned with their theories on what they have observed. Do you see the difference.

 

If a devotee of Krsna reads a mundane biology textbook he will see Krsna's hand through ever process described. It will only increase his faith in the Lord.

 

Remeber there is a distinction between what is observed and one's own theories on what he has observed.

 

Presently there is a growing debate on the "planet" Pluto. Some say it is not a real planet and should be cross of the list of the nine known planets in our solar system. Others become enraged at the thought as a type of heresy "How dare we question such long established facts as Pluto being a planet?"

Now they are talking of compromising and calling it a semi-planet or something. LOL

 

Devotees should not care a bit about their nonsense squabble over classifications. Devotees are satisfied enough to know it's there as a part of God's material manifestation.

 

Praise the Lord for His greatness and wonderous ways.

[theist]

 

who told you it wasn't and were these people suddha-bhaktas?

will paying attention to what they say help you in your faith in the acharya?

 

scientific talk is a place of pilgrimage for crows.

 

where did you hear such things?

 

Did you make a pilgrimage to the crow convention?

 

Are you going to let the talks of the crow convention convince you that the pure devotee was stupid and naive?

 

What the crows say at their convention has no place in a Vaishnava discussion.

 

If you want to bring this crow katha into the Vaishnava forum, then that is your own problem and there is certainly nothing anyone here can do to help you.

 

Scientific knowledge is a rubbish heap and garbage dump.

 

If you want to partake of that feast then go ahead, but I hope you don't mind if I opt out of that convention.

 

As usual you quote the question but gave no answer.

 

"Scientific knowledge is a rubbish heap and garbage dump." I want to distance myself as much as possible from this brainless idea. You flat earth people are as embarassing to theism as the Christian 'Young Creationists'.

[bija]

 

Praise the Lord for His greatness and wonderous ways. quote theist

Praise the Lord for making us so tiny and minute. Knowing smallness, maybe our position is not to 'know' everything. Thank God for that...I'll leave omniscience to Him.

[Guest guest]

 

As usual you quote the question but gave no answer.

 

"Scientific knowledge is a rubbish heap and garbage dump." I want to distance myself as much as possible from this brainless idea. You flat earth people are as embarassing to theism as the Christian 'Young Creationists'.

 

unlike yourself, I have nothing to prove to the demonic secular society, neither do I care for their acceptance or endorsement.

 

I could care less if the demonic scientists are pleased with me or think I am a religious fanatic fundamentalist.

 

Very soon, your scientists with succeed in bringing your modern scientific world to ruination.

 

then nobody will care for what science says.

 

Science is evil.

 

Science is behind the destruction and ruination of this whole planet.

 

Nuclear holocaust.

That is what your scientists offers mankind.

 

You can take all your beloved scientists and go to Pataloka as far as I am concerned.

[bija]

 

Science is evil. quote by guest

What we choose to do with scientific knowledge has the potential for suffering and destruction. Good use of science can lengthen our days for practicing Krsna consciousness if we come down ill. It can save a small child from illness and death, so when they become an accountable age they can become a devotee and spread the Holy Name.

 

To say all science is evil is a bit out there isn't it?

[theist]

 

Praise the Lord for making us so tiny and minute. Knowing smallness, maybe our position is not to 'know' everything. Thank God for that...I'll leave omniscience to Him.

 

Me too bija

[Guest guest]

I sometimes feel sad when I see devotees expressing extreme anti science sentiments. It is so unnecessary.

 

Did anyone here ever see that movie Blade Runner with Harrison Ford?

 

Harrison Ford is a cop hunting down some "replicants", or in other words cloned humans, who came to earth from one of the space colonies. The replicants were angry with humans for creating them and giving them miserable lives. Humans put these cloned humans called replicants to work as slaves in horrible locations such as gold mines on far off asteroids. Some of the replicants escape from the colonies and come to earth to find the scientists who created them, so they could have revenge "on their Creator".

 

Why I bring this up is that in one scene Harrison Ford is fighting a replicant in a crowded street, and suddenly as they run from location to location they come across a sankirtan party chanting Hare Krishna on a footpath.

 

As I remember it this Hare Krishna sankirtan party was the only reference to religion in the whole of the movie.

 

I was struck with fascination when I saw that because I realized that no matter how weird the world gets because of mad scientists or even madder Amerikan politicians there will be no end to the sankirtan of Sri Krishna's holy names.

 

I was talking with my sons last night about human cloning. Frankly, if you can create a new rose plant by taking a cutting from a rose bush then why can't a human embryo cloned in a factory still be a "person"? A separate being. A separate soul. A cutting taken from a plant body becomes the "container" for a separate mass of life-energy to inhabit, and maybe the scientists will start making humans in the same way one day. It is not impossible. And this will not destroy my faith in Bhagavad gita. Why should it? The rishis used to create people in the (factory) of a fire-yajna. And it doesn't matter to me if the scientists do succeed in cloning humans and they start making human bodies in factories (obviously I don't want that to happen!!!), because those humans, like the replicants in Blade Runner, will still find themselves in a quest for understanding. Every thinking being is searching for Meaning in their life, and even if a man is made in a factory he will still search for Liberation and Bliss. In his search he may eventually find Sri Krishna, Reality the Beautiful. That is possible.

 

murali

[stonehearted]

Blade Runner, especially without the hokey film-noir voiceover, is a great movie that I've used in some of my college writing classes. The central question is, What makes one human? And who was the most human character in the film? I think it was Roy Batty, the out-of-control, pissed-off replicant. He is the most thoughtful, introspective character in the film. His last line gets me every time I see the film: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."

 

And yes, the only God in the film is Krishna, which should give us all hope, as Srila Sarasvati Thakura said, that the line of Bhiktivinoda will never die.

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu,

 

Thanks for that quote by Roy Batty

 

Strangely, it was also my favourite moment in the movie as well.

 

-m.

[stonehearted]

Murali, I have always considered that moment the real climax of the film, which, as I mentioned earlier, shows Roy to be the most human character in the story.

[Guest guest]

 

Whatever.

My point is that we should just happily and faithfully support Srila Prabhupada instead of trying to prove him wrong on the strength of scientific explanations.

The mood of vraja bhakti has nothing to do with listening to scientific postulations and then trying to prove the Vaishnava acharyas as wrong based upon what these demons say.

 

We don't care what the scientists say.

That is all just so much explotation of the universe for sense gratification.

 

We just humbly and faithfully support and defend our beloved gurudeva from the attacks of demons who want to make him out to be a fool.

 

it is not BLIND faith because we choose to follow our guru and reject what demonic scientists say.

 

It is BLIND FAITH to offend the Vaishnava acharyas while we pick and choose what part of his teachings we accept and what part we classify as ignorance.

 

GROW up, this childish namecalling has no place in mature dialogue. All you will do is turn people away from Krsna consciousness with your fanaticism.. is this what you seek to do?

 

It is sad that you will not calm down and be rational about this, rather you keep going on and on about lack of faith, and calling people demons, and acting like some Christian fanatic, blaming everything that contradicts the Bible as the deception of Satan. You sound like the Hare Krishna Pat Robertson!

 

FYI:

 

Modern Scientists were not the ones to notice the moon is closer! The Greeks knew this 2,500 yrs ago.. and People from all over the world, have known this for centuries. Just viewing an eclipse shows us this! If the moon was farther it could not block the light of the sun. Rather the sun would eclipse the moon. Do we need to draw a diagram out for you so you can figure out what an eclipse is?

 

You act as though this is some modern discovery or conspiracy of scientists to make the Vedic writings to be false. Newsflash: Most people in the world have never even read the Vedic writings about the moon! they wouldn't have a clue what the Bhagavata Purana is, or who Srila Prabhupad was, let alone the desire to make the Purana out to be false, or Prabhupad out to be a liar. Believe it or not, the close-moon people are not a part of some conspiracy to make the moon out to be closer, so people won't join ISKCON. Think what you are suggesting in your conspiracy tirades. Please.. this is important, because you (and other fanatics) are hurting the Krsna consciousness movement by your behavior and rhetoric. And this is something none of us want to see happen.

[Guest guest]

 

unlike yourself, I have nothing to prove to the demonic secular society, neither do I care for their acceptance or endorsement.

 

I could care less if the demonic scientists are pleased with me or think I am a religious fanatic fundamentalist.

 

Very soon, your scientists with succeed in bringing your modern scientific world to ruination.

 

then nobody will care for what science says.

 

Science is evil.

 

Science is behind the destruction and ruination of this whole planet.

 

Nuclear holocaust.

That is what your scientists offers mankind.

 

You can take all your beloved scientists and go to Pataloka as far as I am concerned.

 

This, friends, is a pure example of religious fanaticism at its ugliest. These are the people who blow up abortion clinics, hope homosexuals get aids and die, are quit to damn others who believe differently than themselves, etc.

 

We can only hope the above poster is a hermit and is not out preaching with this attitude. He will only scare people away from learning more about Krsna Consciousness.. and give the Krsna consciousness movement a bad name.

 

Prabhupad would have never used such crude language; nor did he wish to turn people away with such hateful rhetoric as we see above. He only wanted to lead souls back to Krsna, by showing them their wrong thinking; including atheistic scientists. I have no doubt he would admonish a shisya who was speaking like the poster above just has.

[Guest guest]

 

GROW up, this childish namecalling has no place in mature dialogue. All you will do is turn people away from Krsna consciousness with your fanaticism.. is this what you seek to do?

 

I could just as easily say that you should grow up and give up your childhood attachment to Superman, SpiderMan and scientists.

 

Why try to trick people into accepting Krishna consciousness if they are going to read Srila Prabhupada's books and hear scientists referred to as demons?

 

Srila Prabhupada spared little sentiment on scientists and science.

Yet, he tried his best to take all this modern science and use to glorify the Lord.

 

There might be some good in science, but if you look at all the environmental pollution and nuclear weapons poised for launch at a moments notice, in the end we have to admit that science is going to be the undoing of humankind.

 

Whatever good science can do will all be for not when global warming or nuclear war fructifies and produces an horrific effect.

 

Therefore, we cannot say that petroleum based society, nuclear energy dependent society and other such monsters created by science are good in the long run and that they will destroy the world.

 

In the end, we will see that science is in fact evil enough that whatever good it can do can never counteract the evil it is doing.

 

How much science did they have 5000 years ago when Krishna was on Earth?

How much science did they have even 500 years ago when Mahaprabhu was on Earth.

 

We don't need science as we know it today.

 

We need simple living and high thinking.

[Kulapavana]

 

Please accept my most humble obeisances. I really sense that we are, for the most part, in total agreement. I just wanted to demonstrate from Sastra that there is a purpose for the description of the Universe in the Fifth Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. Virata Rupa. Also, to show that the Bhagavatam itself, the Spotless Purana, declares that the description of this Virata Rupa has been determined by great sages who are free from illusion, mistakes, and the propensity to cheat. This is an extremely important point. Many devotees are under the impression that the Bhagavatam is *wrong* in its descriptions of the Universe, that the Bhagavatam is only good for *spiritual* topics, not for explaining supposedly *material* topics, such as the Virata Rupa (which isn't actually material.)

 

 

Dandabat pranams, prabhuji. Sorry for my strong words, I apologize for offending you. But there is quite a lot at stake. As I said, we should not create and maintain myths. Bhagavatam imparts much knowledge even in the material sense but that knowledge must be understood properly to be relevant and appreciated by everyone.

 

The myth that Srila Prabhupada could never be wrong in the field of Vedic cosmology or material science prevents further understanding of this matter and that quite frankly causes a lot of problems for a LOT of devotees and prospective bhaktas. Many good people rejected Krsna consciousness because of that.

 

Why do you think, as you point out: "Many devotees are under the impression that the Bhagavatam is *wrong* in its descriptions of the Universe, that the Bhagavatam is only good for *spiritual* topics"? IMO that is because of this very myth and people who created and maintained it over the years, not even permitting public discussion of such topics.

 

Sadaputa prabhu gets criticized for trying to explain Vedic cosmology by people who are complete zeros in the field of science but who proudly wield the club of "but Prabhupada said..." and beat everybody over the head with it. You may call it "having faith" I call it "being blind".

 

Look at this thread. Do you think the issue will go away just because "we should have faith and not question the authorities"?

 

Think again.

[Guest guest]

The Seven Chakras below the Muladhara:

 

1) Atala - plane of existence = Put

fear and indecision

 

2) Vitala - plane of existence = Avichi

raging anger

 

3) Sutala - plane of existence = Samhata

retaliatory, ill-will, gnaws at the mind

 

4) Talatala - plane of existence = Tamisra

prolonged confusion, negative karmas stiffen

the flow of awareness

 

5) Rasatala - plane of existence = Rijisha

personal gain, selfishness

 

6) Mahatala - plane of existence = Kudmala

blindness to higher impulses, conscienceless

 

7) Patala - plane of existence = Kakola

malice; reason rarely reaches this region

 

I don't think it is very nice to say bad things about others. I would say, let's look to whom said that. I would say that if a person curses a brahmana and

a Vaisnava, I would call that a Vaisnava aparadha.

 

I would further recall those lovely days sitting in the temple room when we

used to recite the ten offenses. I believe we used to all say in unison something like, "It's not very nice to diss people who have given their

life to spread the holy names around the world."

 

How's about this: let's think about Unity in Diversity. Let's say that the point

in which people posting here in this thread can agree is that they love Prabhupada. They consider Prabhupada to be like their dad or their life

and soul, their Prabhuji, their Prananatha.

 

So how's about let's refrain from discussing things that agitate other people's minds, such as cursing Vaisnavas in public and in print.

 

Also why bring up these divisive things in the first place that you know is

going to agitate other people's minds? Why not start a thread "Things

Prabhupada would be happy to see that are happening in the world today"?

 

For example: Vedabase May 4, 1976

Honolulu, Hawaii

Prabhupada is telling two devotees that preaching in China and Russia is impossible, so don't even bother. Wouldn't Prabhupada be happy to know

about all of the preaching that is going on in those countries now?

 

I would love to see a thread where people just share nice things like that.

Be like nice brothers at the dinner table. Prabhupada and the previous acharyas are always with us. So why not converse with each other like Prabhupada is hearing everything single word that you are saying?

 

"You will show your love for me by how you cooperate." So why not be nice

and focus on nice things? How's about talking nicely about nice and sweet things that Prabhupada would like to hear if he was sitting right next to you and watching everything you are typing in?

 

Would Prabhupada like to hear you curse his disciples? Or would he like to hear sweet stories of what people did with their lives after he left the planet in order to make him happy?

 

In case you forgot how to interact with someone like that, imagine that you had the sweetest ever grandpa that you loved more than life itself, because he was a grandpa who somehow seemed to understand you and gave you unconditional love? A grandpa who always had good yummy treats for you

that he spent hours making himself?

 

Would you curse your cousins in front of a grandpa like that at the dinner table? If not, then why are you doing it online? I feel very very scared for anyone who curses a devotee.

 

Seems to me that whoever would curse another person is already residing in hellish consciousness, as evidenced by the above-mentioned descriptors of the Seven Chakras Below the Muladhara. If you love Prabhupada then try to

do what would make him happy, okay?

 

For some reason I think Prabhupada might feel happier if you expressed your

frustrations with your cousins to him in private [in your shrine room, in your prayers] rather than curse them out at the dinner table [posting curses online]. And I feel that the older kids who are more mature should set a leadership role at the dinner table [online] in this regard also.

 

Since I ran into this I feel I had to say something so I don't go to hell from

reading Vaisnava aparadha. I hope Prabhupada will forgive you for cursing

his disciples in a public setting [the internet] and to their faces.