Literal understanding of Bhagavatam

[Kulapavana]

 

We don't need science as we know it today.

 

We need simple living and high thinking.

 

that may be true, but such words coming from a guy who takes advantage of all the science has to offer EVERY DAY?

 

do YOU live simply without science as we know it today? you may have illusions of high thinking as well but you are not fooling anyone with such empty talk.

 

you say you dont need science only simple living and high thinking... ok, SHOW ME how YOU do it... you would likely starve the first year living off the land.

 

read the Vedic literature to see how advanced the material science was at the height of that civilization. it is not science that is your enemy - it is the primitive mentality of exploiting Earth for your own pleasure.

 

without the science you so deride nobody would ever hear Prabhupada speak. is that what you want? how about instantly having sanga of your Godbrothers half way across the globe? all useless you say, eh?

 

give credit where credit is due and use all things in Krsna's service.

[Guest guest]

Don't get too carried away with allegorical meanings.

Before we go to translate fthe Bhagavatam in an allegorical way, we need to understand something about the REASON, PURPOSE and the AUDIENCE for such allegorical translations of the Bhagavat.

 

For example; Sutala

 

you have posted

 

3) Sutala - plane of existence = Samhata

retaliatory, ill-will, gnaws at the mind

 

However, the Bhagavatam itself describes Sutala as a planet where Lord Vamanadeva stays as the doorkeeper to Bali Maharaja.

 

Is Lord Vamanadeva also an allegorical character?

Is Bali Maharaja a real person or an allegory for certain personal qualities?

 

If Srila Prabhupada gave a literal translative meaning in his Bhagavatam translation, then is is proper that we should now come out and try to show that it is all just so much allegory?

 

If Prabhupada wanted us to understand Bhagavatam in an allegorical way, then surely he would have given an allegorical explanation.

 

The mayavadis are also very fond of presenting Bhagavad-gita in an allegorical sense. Arjuna is the living entity and his chariot is the body and the horses are the senses etc. etc.

 

If we get too carried away with all this allegorical stuff, we can eventually end up with an allegorical Krishna who is just a mythological God who helps us attain to impersonal brahman realization.

[Guest guest]

 

that may be true, but such words coming from a guy who takes advantage of all the science has to offer EVERY DAY?

 

do YOU live simply without science as we know it today? you may have illusions of high thinking as well but you are not fooling anyone with such empty talk.

 

you say you dont need science only simple living and high thinking... ok, SHOW ME how YOU do it... you would likely sarve the first year living off the land.

 

read the Vedic literature to see how advanced the material science was at the height of that civilization. it is not science that is your enemy - it is the primitive mentality of exploiting Earth for your own pleasure.

 

without the science you so deride nobody would ever hear Prabhupada speak. is that what you want? how about instantly having sanga of your Godbrothers half way across the globe? all useless you say, eh?

 

give credit where credit is due and use all things in Krsna's service.

 

 

I recommend that if you have any faith in Srila Prabhupada that you do a study into his statements and comments about science and scientists instead of trying to shoot the parrot who is repeating his words.

 

Ultimately, it will be Srila Prabhupada and his views that you are arguing against.

 

If you don't understand that, then I would have to say that you in fact do not accept Srila Prabhupada and his message to the modern world.

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't think it is very nice to say bad things about others. I would say, let's look to whom said that. I would say that if a person curses a brahmana and

a Vaisnava, I would call that a Vaisnava aparadha.

 

I am not sure if you are talking to me, but just in case...

 

Yes, maybe we should never speak about things that are controversial. Problem is: they do exist, and many devotees struggle real hard to understand them. Sweeping them under a carpet does not do much good. Sreyas and preyas.

 

If you think my writing here is offensive to Prabhupada it is your perception only. For 27 years I have been promoting Prabhupada and his teachings to a lot of people, helping quite a few of them join the movement. I have studied the issues I am raising in this thread for many years, from all kinds of angles. I think over the years I have helped many devotees understand these topics, even as these things supposedly "do not matter"... well... they matter to them, and I'm glad I was able to help them.

[Kulapavana]

 

I recommend that if you have any faith in Srila Prabhupada that you do a study into his statements and comments about science and scientists instead of trying to shoot the parrot who is repeating his words.

 

 

parotting is nice but when it comes to practicalities - time, place and circumstances are important considerations. the social message that resonated well with the counterculture youth in the 60's and 70's seems to fall on deaf ears now, and our temples in the West are currently empty. our movement cant just have social slogans. we need to SHOW the world how it is done.

 

unless the parrots actually DO what they preach everybody else should do, nobody takes their parrotting seriously.

 

We need to show people how to make their life sublime by the adoption of Krsna consciousness, not by rejection of science.

[Guest guest]

 

parotting is nice but when it comes to practicalities - time, place and circumstances are important considerations. the social message that resonated well with the counterculture youth in the 60's and 70's seems to fall on deaf ears now, and our temples in the West are currently empty. our movement cant just have social slogans. we need to SHOW the world how it is done.

 

unless the parrots actually DO what they preach everybody else should do, nobody takes their parrotting seriously.

 

We need to show people how to make their life sublime by the adoption of Krsna consciousness, not by rejection of science.

 

well, my mood is to try and find a spiritual explanation for the Bhagavat cosmology by thinking in terms of the underlying spiritual basis of the unvierse.

 

I am not satisfied to just write off the Bhagavat cosmology as misconceptions based upon faulty information.

 

I feel that somehow, someway if we look long and hard enough and think deeply enough and try to find the spiritual purpose behind the Bhagavat cosmology, we will come out better than if we just write it off as primitive misconceptions of ancient peoples.

 

If we approach Bhagavat cosmology from a mundane view, then we will never get the benefit of what the Bhagavat cosmology is trying to present.

 

We have to think spiritually about the Bhagavat cosmology and avoid the scientific methods for verifying it.

 

The universal form of the Lord is indeed unkown and knowable in full, but we should try to understand what the Vedic sages were saying in regards to the universal manifestation.

[Kulapavana]

 

I feel that somehow, someway if we look long and hard enough and think deeply enough and try to find the spiritual purpose behind the Bhagavat cosmology, we will come out better than if we just write it off as primitive misconceptions of ancient peoples.

 

and who on this thread is doing that?show me, who here is writing it off as primitive misconceptions of ancient peoples?

 

if anything, this thread is precisely about taking a long and hard look and thinking deeply to try to find the spiritual purpose behind the Bhagavat cosmology.

[Guest guest]

The person I felt had made an aparadha by cursing Vaisnavas was the person "Guest" who wrote, "You can take all of your beloved scientists to Pataloka as far as I am concerned"

 

Isn't that saying, "You personally, if you like scientists so much, can go to hell along with them?" I didn't think that was very nice. I thought it was excessive.

 

If that guy doesn't like scientists so much, then why is he or she using a computer? Namaste.

[Guest guest]

 

If that guy doesn't like scientists so much, then why is he or she using a computer? Namaste.

 

 

or driving a car? or using a microwave? etc? if people are so anti science, they also must be anti- modern-technology.

 

We'd still be in the dark ages, without any of our modern conveniences, if it weren't for scientists.. so if you are anti modern science, you better not take advantage of any of the discoveries of modern scientists, or you are a hypocrite.

[Guest guest]

The Guest wrote, "you can take all of your beloved scientists and go to

Patalaloka as far as I am concerned." I was wondering if he would say that in front of Prabhupada.

 

I believe that there are rules for debate in the Gaudiya tradition and I am pretty sure that one of the rules is, you don't tell the person you are debating to go to Heck. I don't even want to say the word.

 

If he was on a high school debate team, for example, his team would lose points and he would be penalized for telling his opponent to go to Heck. Why? because it does not further his argument, so it actually detracts from the validity of his claims.

 

It also seems like anyone who would tell a devotee to go to Heck has lost

their intelligence. It certainly does not sound like a sattvic statement to me.

It sounds like, "from anger comes loss of intelligence".

 

If you are going to debate can you please not tell other people to go to Heck?

 

One, because I don't like to hear devotees cursed. To simply disagree and debate is fine, Prabhuapada had his disciples practice debating things and take turns presenting each side of the argument to remain intellectually agile

so that they could be good preachers.

 

But if you tell someone to go to Heck, especially a devotee, then it sounds as if you have lost control of your self and your consciousness is now in the mode of ignorance. That's not very good for your argument.

 

My suggestion to "Guest" is rather than tell sonmeone to go to Heck, try to adhere to sattvic rules of debate, then it will be better for your argument.

 

Also it will be better for the audience. Try to focus on your argument. Then you'll have more credibility.

 

Learn what the rules of debate are. If you don't like anything Western then learn what the rules of debate in India in the classical sampradayas. I'm pretty sure it does not involve telling your opponent to go to Heck.

 

Hare Krishna!

[Guest guest]

 

or driving a car? or using a microwave? etc? if people are so anti science, they also must be anti- modern-technology.

 

We'd still be in the dark ages, without any of our modern conveniences, if it weren't for scientists.. so if you are anti modern science, you better not take advantage of any of the discoveries of modern scientists, or you are a hypocrite.

 

 

yes, let's all praise scientists and try to develop love of scientist and go back home back to NASA.

[Guest guest]

Also you could learn how to spell if you are going to tell someone to go to Patalaloka.

 

Where exactly is "Pataloka" anyway? I don't remember reading about that in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Is that the motel 6 that the Patel family owns in Mississippi?

 

Cursing someone and then misspelling your curse makes you appear to be not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Guest guest]

 

yes, let's all praise scientists and try to develop love of scientist and go back home back to NASA.

 

haha you and are your obsession with NASA. Incase you didn't know, NASA is just one of many organizations and groups of people that are interested in science and astronomy. There have been scientists well before NASA, and thousands that work outside of NASA. Scientists come from all backgrounds, not all are atheists. Some Scientists are even Vaishnavas. And believe it or not, some Vaishnavas even own telescopes and are interested in astronomy.

 

It's clear you care little about science AND math, but that doesn't stop you from taking full advantage of modern technology. That's all we are saying.

[Guest guest]

 

haha you and are your obsession with NASA. Incase you didn't know, NASA is just one of many organizations and groups of people that are interested in science and astronomy. There have been scientists well before NASA, and thousands that work outside of NASA. Scientists come from all backgrounds, not all are atheists. Some Scientists are even Vaishnavas. And believe it or not, some Vaishnavas even own telescopes and are interested in astronomy.

 

It's clear you care little about science AND math, but that doesn't stop you from taking full advantage of modern technology. That's all we are saying.

 

well, my own cousin was an engineer with NASA during the Apollo program.

He performed the final pre-flight inspection on the space capsules before launching.

so, we do have rocket scientists in our family.

 

I was a jet engine mechanic in the Navy during the Vietnam war, so that makes me ALMOST a rocket scientist.........hahahahahahahahah!

 

yes, I admit that I am just another rascal who is attached to all sorts of evil scientific inventions, but I still don't see any good in glorifying scientists and giving them credit for having noble intentions.

 

we are all just lab rats in the hands of modern science.

maybe you are happy with that, but I happen to think it is very unfortunate.

[Guest guest]

copy and paste this link into your browser and read about one of the demonic stunts that scientists have performed.

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

[Guest guest]

 

well, my own cousin was an engineer with NASA during the Apollo program.

He performed the final pre-flight inspection on the space capsules before launching.

so, we do have rocket scientists in our family.

 

I was a jet engine mechanic in the Navy during the Vietnam war, so that makes me ALMOST a rocket scientist.........hahahahahahahahah!

 

yes, I admit that I am just another rascal who is attached to all sorts of evil scientific inventions, but I still don't see any good in glorifying scientists and giving them credit for having noble intentions.

 

we are all just lab rats in the hands of modern science.

maybe you are happy with that, but I happen to think it is very unfortunate.

 

No one here supports the atheistic viewpoints of modern scientists, or agrees with all of their theories. However, there is a big difference between being ANTI-science and being anti-materalistic science. The Vedic religion is very scientific.. it is not anti-science. We just have more esoteric knowledge than modern science.. Vedic scientists KNOW MORE than the secular scientists, because we have Awareness of the metaphysical dimensions and the CAUSE of material creation.

 

What we have tried to do on this thread is bring in metaphysical understanding, which is part and parcel of Vedic science.. but those who have tried to do this, have been accused of being in bed with demons, and all kinds of other accusations against us, because we are looking at the moon issue from the perspective of multi-dimensionality.

 

The type of fanaticism displayed on this thread is embarrasing.. in truth, it has no part in the Vedic religion. The Vedic religion is about Transcendental Knowledge and INQUIRY, not burying our heads in the stand and staying in a state of avidya. The Vedic seers praise those who ask questions and seek transcendental knowledge.. they never ask people to believe blindly in dogmas, like the Christians.

[Guest guest]

 

copy and paste this link into your browser and read about one of the demonic stunts that scientists have performed.

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

 

what the heck does this have to do with the moon issue? NOTHING.

 

STILL you have not produced one shred of evidence on the moon issue. Just distractions, name-calling and strawmen arguments.

 

Here's is a question, which you have repeatedly ignored, while you go on and on about issues that have no direct bearing on the moon distance:

 

Can you explain a solar eclipse to us?

[Guest guest]

 

 

Can you explain a solar eclipse to us?

 

When the Moon hits your eye like a big Pizza pie, that's amore!

 

Since the Sun is the eye of God, then an eclipse is when God winks at Earth!

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada quoted this scientist quite a bit, even though it doesn't say anything at all about brain size in the Srimad Bhagavatam. He used this

material scientist's observations as a supplement to enhance people's

understanding of the eternal Vedic knowledge.

 

In fact, when a reporter challenged Prabhupada about what he learned from the material scientist Dr. Uruquat in the 1920s, Prabhupada replied, "It is a fact" what he learned from Dr. Uruquat and added that no new knowledge had been discovered since then.

 

I like your post but do you have some references to that highlighted part?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada's view:

 

The phenomenon that occurs when Rāhu blocks the light of the sun or moon is called an eclipse. The attempt of the scientists of this earth to go to the moon is as demoniac as Rāhu's attack. Of course. their attempts will be failures because no one can enter the moon or sun so easily. Like the attack of Rāhu, such attempts will certainly be failures.

 

[Guest guest]

If you google the words then you can probably find it online, there was a whole thread about this on another forum some time back.

 

The situation was Prabhupada was being interviewed by a female reporter

for TV in San Francisco in the 1960s. He was telling her that no woman ever

did anything important or will do anything important, because of their brain

size.

 

The female reporter was giving all sorts of examples of females who had done things, such as the Prime Minister of India at the time was Indira Gandhi.

 

Prabhupada didn't seem to like Indira Gandhi very much so then the reporter

asked him where did he learn that women's brains are a smaller size? He replied, "From Dr. Uruquat at Scottish Rites College."

 

Then she said, "Well when was this?"

 

Prabhupada said, "In 1920." Then the girl said, "Oh, okay. I get what's happening here now."

 

She then asked Prabhupada, "Don't you think that scientists have discovered anything new since then?" And Prabhuapada replied, "No."

 

I like Prabhupada and I understand where he POSSIBLY was coming from. I can't presume to say for sure, as no one knows the mind of a pure devotee. To me it just seems like he had his point of view that there is nothing new under the material sun, but in the spiritual world it is ever-fresh and new at every moment. That Sri Krsna is more and more beautiful every moment, is more and more attracted to Radhika at every moment: THAT is the only real new thing under the sun in all of the three worlds.

[theist]

 

When the Moon hits your eye like a big Pizza pie, that's amore!

 

Since the Sun is the eye of God, then an eclipse is when God winks at Earth!

 

[theist]

 

Prabhupada didn't seem to like Indira Gandhi very much so then the reporter

asked him where did he learn that women's brains are a smaller size? He replied, "From Dr. Uruquat at Scottish Rites College."

 

And where did Dr. Uruquat get his knowledge on the subject? From the Bhagavatam or from a scientist?

[Guest guest]

This article first appeared in The New York Times on January 24, 2005

 

Gray Matter and the Sexes: Still a Scientific Gray Area

By NATALIE ANGIER and KENNETH CHANG

 

 

 

neuroscientists have shown that women's brains are about 10 percent smaller than men's, on average, even after accounting for women's comparatively smaller body size.

 

But throughout history, people have cited anatomical distinctions in support of overarching hypotheses that turn out merely to reflect the societal and cultural prejudices of the time.

 

A century ago, the French scientist Gustav Le Bon pointed to the smaller brains of women - closer in size to gorillas', he said - and said that explained the "fickleness, inconstancy, absence of thought and logic, and incapacity to reason" in women.

[Guest guest]

"Now I see that in our Society the girls are more intelligent than the boys."

 

SPL to Krsna devi, 17th Feb 1970

 

source: pg. 2578

Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta: Nectarean Instructions from the

Letters of A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

c 1992 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust

 

 

Jaya Srila Prabhupada! Thank you for teaching us about Krsna! Thank you

for telling us that now you see that the girls are more intelligent than the boys. Thank you for putting it in writing and dating it and signing it.

 

Thank you for all the ways in which you were willing to modify and expand your own point of view when confronted with new information based on reality staring you in the face.

 

In turn, we thank you for expanding our view of Reality the Beautiful.

 

Happy Janmashtami Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for being our teacher.