Guru has his relative side and his absolute side...

[theist]

I have often seen where students and disciples of B.R. Sridhar Maharaja have quoted him as above. (I don't remember the exact quote so I had to paraphrase a bit).

 

I believe I have a vague glimpse of what this means but would love to hear it explained by others so I can get a clearer picture.

 

Thoughts on this please.

[Guest guest]

 

I have often seen where students and disciples of B.R. Sridhar Maharaja have quoted him as above. (I don't remember the exact quote so I had to paraphrase a bit).

 

I believe I have a vague glimpse of what this means but would love to hear it explained by others so I can get a clearer picture.

 

Thoughts on this please.

 

I am not so sure that guestimating and paraphrasing is a good idea when dealing with the instructions of great acharyas.

 

Hows about you do a little more research and report back with something a little more authoritative?

 

don't be so hasty.

just do a little more homework before you submit your ideas to the world.

[theist]

 

I am not so sure that guestimating and paraphrasing is a good idea when dealing with the instructions of great acharyas.

 

Hows about you do a little more research and report back with something a little more authoritative?

 

don't be so hasty.

just do a little more homework before you submit your ideas to the world.

 

I mentioned it was a paraphrase. The request was for someone who had knowledge on that particular topic and could share with us. I am not submiting "my ideas to the world" I am opening a topic for discussion.

 

 

This IS my research on the topic. Q&A remember.

[Guest guest]

 

I mentioned it was a paraphrase. The request was for someone who had knowledge on that particular topic and could share with us. I am not submiting "my ideas to the world" I am opening a topic for discussion.

 

 

This IS my research on the topic. Q&A remember.

 

ok, then i did the homework. here is the quote.

Sri Guru and His Grace, ch. 2

 

 

GURU—ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE

Devotee: Can you explain this concept of the absolute

and relative position of the spiritual master?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: By the special will of Krishna,

gurudeva is a delegated power. If we look closely within

the spiritual master, we will see the delegation of

Krishna, and accordingly we should accept him in that

way. The spiritual master is a devotee of Krishna and,

at the same time, the inspiration of Krishna is within

him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his

aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of the

Vaishnava is guru. On a fast day like ekadasi, he himself

does not take any grains. He conducts himself as a

Vaisnava, but his disciples offer grains to the picture of

their guru on the altar. The disciples offer their spiritual

master grains even on a fast day.

The disciple is concerned with the delegation of

the Lord, the guru’s inner self, his inspired side. The

inspired side of a Vaisnava is ÅchÅrya, or guru. The disciple

marks only the special, inspired portion within the

guru. He is more concerned with that part of his character.

But gurudeva himself generally poses as a Vaisnava.

So, his dealings towards his disciples and his dealings

with other Vaisnavas will be different. This is acintyabhedÅbheda,

inconceivable unity in diversity.

There may be imitation, and there may be deviation.

Both are possible. For ulterior motives one may make a

INITIATION INTO TRANSCENDENTAL SCIENCE 43

trade of guruship, just as in the case of the caste goswamis

and the sahajÈya imitationists. For some reason or other,

one may pose as a guru, but the symptoms of a real

guru are given in the scriptures:

sÅbde pare ca nisnÅta˜

brahmanya upasamÅsrayam"

“A bona fide spiritual master must be conversant

with the conclusions of the Vedic literature, fixed in

realization of the Supreme Truth (Srimad-BhÅgavatam

11.3.21).

[Guest guest]

by the way, you can view or download many of the books of Sridhar Maharaja for free on the scsmath.com website.

 

look for "resources" in the right side column and then "books"

[Guest guest]

"Regarding the scientists, we have entrusted our own three scientists namely

Swarupa Damodara, Sadaputa, and Madhava and we leave the matter to them, we do not say anything ourselves...

 

"I shall be very glad to receive further enlightenment in this connection from

your good self..."

 

SPL letter

14 Oct 1976

to a material scientist [ack!!!]

Dr. W.H. Wolf-Rottkay

 

from Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta

p. 271

c 1992 BBT

[Guest guest]

 

"Regarding the scientists, we have entrusted our own three scientists namely

Swarupa Damodara, Sadaputa, and Madhava and we leave the matter to them, we do not say anything ourselves...

 

"I shall be very glad to receive further enlightenment in this connection from

your good self..."

 

SPL letter

14 Oct 1976

to a material scientist [ack!!!]

Dr. W.H. Wolf-Rottkay

 

from Srila Prabhupada Siksamrta

p. 271

c 1992 BBT

 

 

When did Srila Prabhupada authorize any disciple to compile a book of letters and title it "Srila Prabhupada Siksamrita"?

 

For a little balance can you present some of the statements Srila Prabhupada made about scientists in his books?

 

A devotee scientist is actually an ex-scientist, as he should be giving up his scientific speculations in pursuit of Krishna-bhakti.

 

they only pretend to be scientists.

 

Didn't Swarupa Damodar Maharaja give up mundane science to become a spiritual scientist in the science of devotion?

[Guest guest]

 

"Regarding the scientists, we have entrusted our own three scientists namely

Swarupa Damodara, Sadaputa, and Madhava and we leave the matter to them, we do not say anything ourselves...

 

from Srila Prabhupada

 

Srila Prabhupada said plenty about scientists in his books.

 

A couple of sentences in a letter can hardly undo everything Srila Prabhupada wrote in his books.

[theist]

Thank you for the quotation Guest.

[Guest guest]

You're welcome! Always a pleasure to serve the devotees. Happy Janmashtami!

 

An instructive story in regards to "sri guru: the relative and absolute" can be found in the Memories of Srila Prabhupada by Her Grace Govinda Dasi [ACBSP]. It's online.

 

She describes when Prabhupada had yet another heart attack when he was living with them (his disciples Gaurasundar das and Govinda dasi) in a beachside house in New Jersey.

 

They brought SP to a doctor, who as you know studies the material science of medicine as promulgated by the AMA or American Medical Association.

I'm not talking about an ayur-vedic doctor, chiropractor, or accupuncturist, I am talking mainstream medicine here.

 

After studying SP's case history, the MD said, "Old man, you pray too much."

GD and GD were aghast! How dare he talk to SP like that, who knows everything that there is to know, now and forever: past, present, and future.

How dare he criticize Prabhupada for "praying too much" of all things!!!

 

Govinda dasi was distraught and started crying, "Oh Srila Prabhupada, I am sooo sorry. He shouldn't have talked to you like that, he doesn't know who you are, he has no business criticizing you or anything that you do..."

 

Prabhupada silenced her and said, "But he is right. He knows the science of medicine and I do not. Therefore, it was proper of him to chastise me and

criticise me. He was doing it for my own good, so I will be alive longer to

teach all of you young boys and girls about Krsna Consciousness.

 

"If he did not chastise me, I might have continued in my old habits. Therefore I accept him as a type of teacher or guru."

 

This episode, my friends, is what led to Prabhupada's famous morning japa walks. Why? Because the doctor advised Prabhupada that he had to start moving around more. He suggested for a man Prabhupada's age that he start a program of daily walking.

 

And as you know, Prabhupada walked daily after that, rain or shine, without fail.

 

Thanks to a wretched meat-eating materialistic scientist who dared to

criticise Srila Prabhupada and give him instructions, we as devotees were blessed with: Prabhupada living longer and many wonderful memories and

photographs of wonderful japa walks, in addition to sanctifying the dust of

Bhumi Loka, making the entire whole world a place of pilgrimmage.

 

Prabhupada was even modelling the appropriate behavior for us of "best practices" in medicine. He demonstrated being a good role model for us how to listen to good medical advice as we age. He also established a precedent

that in the future, if we don't know something and aren't expert in the field, we can learn from others, too.

 

Once the former Guru-Kripa Swami was telling Prabhupada, "Oh Prabhupada, Oh Prabhupada, the karmis are in so much maya." Prabhupada responded, "The karmis are in maya? YOU are in maya!"

 

There is a prayer of gratitude in one tradition that goes like this, "Through the

diligent hard work and tireless striving of innumerable souls, thanks to them I will be able to attain enlightenment. Therefore I am grateful to every living being and view them as a mother. I will seek enlightenment for their benefit."

 

There are so many things that others on this planet do that enable us to have sadhu-sangha. The scientists who invented computers, electricity, air travel, the automobile, the printing press, the telephone, the steamer. The people who maintain and design buildings, roads, and bridges. The people who grow your food and harvest it.

 

There are six billion souls that we can be grateful to: some are teaching is the right way to do things and some are teaching us by example different types of actions to avoid. Thank you Prabhupada for being our teacher, so

we can work on ourselves and as we do so be grateful to every living being

for their help in practicing our sadhana in some form or another.

 

Hari hari bolo! Jaya Sri Radhe Syama.

[Guest guest]

 

I believe I have a vague glimpse of what this means but would love to hear it.................................................................

 

Bhakti Yoga: Bhakti Yoga is the practice of devotional disciplines. It is union through devotion.

 

source: yogaexpo.com/glossary.htm

[theist]

 

how prabhupada's japa walks tradition began

 

Whoa! Now that was a gem! If Srila Prabhupada can accept good instruction from a materialistic "karmi" then so should everyone else. Give everyone their due, not more than that or less. What harm can it be to accept knowledge from someone?

 

One with that type of vision truly sees and hears. Caitya-guru speaking to us from every possible angle,"friend and foe" alike carry His instructions for us in some form.

<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1>

[theist]

 

Bhakti Yoga: Bhakti Yoga is the practice of devotional disciplines. It is union through devotion.

 

source: yogaexpo.com/glossary.htm

 

Perfect instructions Bhakti-devi.

[Guest guest]

 

Thanks to a wretched meat-eating materialistic scientist who dared to

criticise Srila Prabhupada and give him instructions, we as devotees were blessed with: Prabhupada living longer and many wonderful memories and

photographs of wonderful japa walks,

 

since when did i or Srila Prabhupada ever lump doctors in with scientists?

 

Doctors are doctors, scientists are scientists.

 

Can you please show me anywhere I have criticised doctors?

 

If you have to try and make a doctor into a scientist, then I would have to say that your whole point is based on a false premise.

 

Next thing you know I will be hearing that bakers are scientists.

[theist]

 

Can you please show me anywhere I have criticised doctors?

 

LOL This challenge from someone who only signs in as Guest.

 

Hold on Guest while I run a search of all your posts to see if I can give an example.

[Guest guest]

Anyone who looks at the relative side, the material body, of a guru, commits an offense, according to sastra.

There is only the absolute.

[theist]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>GURU—ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE

Devotee: Can you explain this concept of the absolute

and relative position of the spiritual master?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: By the special will of Krishna,

gurudeva is a delegated power. If we look closely within

the spiritual master, we will see the delegation of

Krishna, and accordingly we should accept him in that

way. The spiritual master is a devotee of Krishna and,

at the same time, the inspiration of Krishna is within

him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his

aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of the

Vaishnava is guru. On a fast day like ekadasi, he himself

does not take any grains. He conducts himself as a

Vaisnava, but his disciples offer grains to the picture of

their guru on the altar. The disciples offer their spiritual

master grains even on a fast day.

The disciple is concerned with the delegation of

the Lord, the guru’s inner self, his inspired side. The

inspired side of a Vaisnava is ÅchÅrya, or guru. The disciple

marks only the special, inspired portion within the

guru. He is more concerned with that part of his character.

But gurudeva himself generally poses as a Vaisnava.

So, his dealings towards his disciples and his dealings

with other Vaisnavas will be different. This is acintyabhedÅbheda,

inconceivable unity in diversity.

There may be imitation, and there may be deviation.

Both are possible. For ulterior motives one may make a

INITIATION INTO TRANSCENDENTAL SCIENCE 43

trade of guruship, just as in the case of the caste goswamis

and the sahajÈya imitationists. For some reason or other,

one may pose as a guru, but the symptoms of a real

guru are given in the scriptures:

sÅbde pare ca nisnÅta˜

brahmanya upasamÅsrayam"

“A bona fide spiritual master must be conversant

with the conclusions of the Vedic literature, fixed in

realization of the Supreme Truth (Srimad-BhÅgavatam

11.3.21). </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

"The spiritual master is a devotee of Krishna and,

at the same time, the inspiration of Krishna is within

him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his

aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of the

Vaishnava is guru. "

 

This quote inspires many more questions. For starters, what is the distinction between Vaisnava(as it is used here) and the inspired side, the guru side?<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Guest guest]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>GURU—ABSOLUTE AND RELATIVE

Devotee: Can you explain this concept of the absolute

and relative position of the spiritual master?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: By the special will of Krishna,

gurudeva is a delegated power. If we look closely within

the spiritual master, we will see the delegation of

Krishna, and accordingly we should accept him in that

way. The spiritual master is a devotee of Krishna and,

at the same time, the inspiration of Krishna is within

him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his

aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of the

Vaishnava is guru. On a fast day like ekadasi, he himself

does not take any grains. He conducts himself as a

Vaisnava, but his disciples offer grains to the picture of

their guru on the altar. The disciples offer their spiritual

master grains even on a fast day.

The disciple is concerned with the delegation of

the Lord, the guru’s inner self, his inspired side. The

inspired side of a Vaisnava is ÅchÅrya, or guru. The disciple

marks only the special, inspired portion within the

guru. He is more concerned with that part of his character.

But gurudeva himself generally poses as a Vaisnava.

So, his dealings towards his disciples and his dealings

with other Vaisnavas will be different. This is acintyabhedÅbheda,

inconceivable unity in diversity.

There may be imitation, and there may be deviation.

Both are possible. For ulterior motives one may make a

INITIATION INTO TRANSCENDENTAL SCIENCE 43

trade of guruship, just as in the case of the caste goswamis

and the sahajÈya imitationists. For some reason or other,

one may pose as a guru, but the symptoms of a real

guru are given in the scriptures:

sÅbde pare ca nisnÅta˜

brahmanya upasamÅsrayam"

“A bona fide spiritual master must be conversant

with the conclusions of the Vedic literature, fixed in

realization of the Supreme Truth (Srimad-BhÅgavatam

11.3.21). </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

"The spiritual master is a devotee of Krishna and,

at the same time, the inspiration of Krishna is within

him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his

aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of the

Vaishnava is guru. "

 

This quote inspires many more questions. For starters, what is the distinction between Vaisnava(as it is used here) and the inspired side, the guru side?<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

 

that's the whole point.

The guru side of the Vaishnava is actually to be seen as the Lord Himself.

The Vaishnava side is the devotees.

 

Sridhar Maharaja has explained that guru is not a jiva.

The jiva part of the guru is not the guru.

The Krishna part of the the guru is guru.

The jiva part of the guru is Vaishnava.

 

next.....

[theist]

 

that's the whole point.

The guru side of the Vaishnava is actually to be seen as the Lord Himself.

The Vaishnava side is the devotees.

 

Sridhar Maharaja has explained that guru is not a jiva.

The jiva part of the guru is not the guru.

The Krishna part of the the guru is guru.

The jiva part of the guru is Vaishnava.

 

next.....

 

That is a nice clear explaination. Often I say one must except Caitya-guru as the spiritual master and inevidently some people become upset. But I don't separate Caitya-guru from His expansion as the inspired Vaisnava.

 

This makes me question the acceptance of a guru by someone thinking that guru is living in separation from Caitya-guru? It seems this level of acceptance misses the actual "guruness" of the Vaisnava.

 

Please speak further on this prabhu.

[Guest guest]

Well, a doctor has to study science to get into medical school. There are two main branches of science.

 

Medicine utilizes both branches of science.

 

The branches of Science are:

 

Biological Sciences [biology, Botany, Microbiology, Zoology],

 

and

 

Physical Science [Astronomy, Chemistry, Computer Science, Math, and Physics].

 

If Prabhupada got a Bachelor of SCIENCE degree in Chemistry, that means he was a scientist also.

 

To get into medical school you have to study and become expert in both Life Science and Physical Science.

 

Thus doctors are scientists.

 

 

 

There are also the Social Sciences of Anthropology, Communications, Economics, Ethnic Studies, Geography, Journalism, Peace Studies, Political Science, Psychology, Public Administration, Sociology, and Women's Studies.

 

All scientists, who use the scientific method.

 

These sciences are distinct from the Arts and Humanities of Art, Dance, History, Musioc, Philosophy, Religious Studies, Speech, and Theater

[stonehearted]

 

If Prabhupada got a Bachelor of SCIENCE degree in Chemistry, that means he was a scientist also.

 

This has nothing to do with the argument here, but Srila Prabhupada earned a Bachelor of Arts degree. I think his major was philosophy, not chemistry.

 

You probably assumed that he had a BS in Chemistry because he made his living as a "chemist." That's an old-world term for pharmacist. It's a business he sort of fell into because he got a job with a pharmaceuticals firm soon after college, and he figured out how to do it on his own after some time.

[Guest guest]

 

This has nothing to do with the argument here, but Srila Prabhupada earned a Bachelor of Arts degree. I think his major was philosophy, not chemistry.

 

You probably assumed that he had a BS in Chemistry because he made his living as a "chemist." That's an old-world term for pharmacist. It's a business he sort of fell into because he got a job with a pharmaceuticals firm soon after college, and he figured out how to do it on his own after some time.

 

yes.

In fact, Srila Prabhupada described himself as a business man more than anything.

He is known for saying that had not Krishna intervened to spoil his family life and lead him to preaching that would could have been a big business magnate.

 

More than chemist or any such thing, Srila Prabhupada was basically a business man in his family life.

Making an ointment or linament from medicinal ingrediants is hardly genetic engineering or nuclear science.

 

Remember De's linament?

We all need some of De's linament for our sore souls.

[theist]

Inspiration. How to distinquish the inspired side of the guru? I believe this ultimately can come only from the Supersoul. Somehow He must communicate to us the fact that "This devotee is speaking under My direct influence." If not how can we recognize. We must ourselves become spiritually inspired by the gurus words. I believe this receiving of inspiration in Krsna consciousness from someone who is themselves under the direct inspiration of Krsna is real initiation and forms the inner current of the parampara.

 

Got this from the online dictionary. I love this word 'inspiration'.

 

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=410 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=right><!-- begin content --><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=400 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left>inspiration

 

Main entry: in·spi·ra·tion

 

1 a : a divine influence or action on a person believed to qualify him or her to receive and communicate sacred revelation b : the action or power of moving the intellect or emotions c : the act of influencing or suggesting opinions

 

2 : the act of drawing in; specifically : the drawing of air into the lungs

 

3 a : the quality or state of being inspired b : something that is inspired <a scheme that was pure inspiration>

 

4 : an inspiring agent or influence

 

 

</TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[theist]

On Earth we are accustomed to see guru come to us along with his cultural tradition. Because India has held the the strongest degree of transcendental knowledge with absolutely no close second that means the transcendental knowledge comes to us in an Indian cloak. Afterall the Indian vaisnavas have so thoughoughly intertwined transcendental knowledge within their own natural lives that it is difficult for we as neophytes seeking transcendental vision to see any distinctions. We often then take Indian customs as necessary in our approaching the Lord.

 

This strikes me as anthropormorphism in a way. But not wrong or in need of being dropped. Take the Gokula pastimes of Lord Krsna for example. Krsna has revealed enough of His most intimate pastimes in a way fitting the culture in which He revealed them. So they are a bridge for human society. But still there is something on the otherside of that bridge that is at present inconceivable to us, and to ever arrive there we must surely use the divine bridge as Krsna has laid it down.

 

Question. Still I am thinking of the guru who has come from that culture, Indian in this case. Is it an imperative therefore that we as westerners adopt all the Indian cultural aspects of the guru or may we take primarly what we see as the essence from the inspired side of guru and apply it within our own context. Would doing that lessen or negate the potency of the transcendental truth do you think?

 

An example.

 

We are taught the ritual for offering foodstuff to Krsna which include many sanskrit prayers ect., but yet just mimicing the prayers by reciting them dutifully even without understanding their meaning let alone being in the same mood as the writer of the prayer seems like I am missing the real inspired side of the message which is to offer foodstuff to Krsna in love and devotion.

 

It seems to me that we often make the same mistake in respects to guru. We mistake someone who has mastered the external side of the vaisnava as being guru even though he may be lacking in the inspired side.

 

Haven't we seen this many times? The educated orator and exerienced practioner of sadhana bhakti (what I see as the vaisnava side) gets taken as the all in all with no thought to if he is actually under the direct inspiration of the Lord.

 

I see our lack of vision in these regards as being as huge problem. I think we need to give a lot of attention to the words above by BR Sridhar Maharaja. That is if we ever want to go beyond the stage of the advanced sadhana bhakti practioner and enter into the real spiritual current of the River of Life.

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

I agree with just about all you are saying.

 

I feel that there is a need to differentiate between external vesha or dress

[vestments in English, from the Sanskrit vesha] in this world of Mrtya-loka,

material world, finite world of matter

 

and

 

vesha or dress, vestments comprised solely of sac-cit-ananda in the Spiritual World. Everything there is Spiritual.

 

Here in this world of Mrtya-loka so easily sad things can happen, such as a

wolf can put on sheep's clothing. Here in this schoolhouse world, where we

learn many lessons, in the Kali Yug of hypocrisy so many terrible things can

happen if we look only to externals such as dress or vesha.

 

Remember this world is the banyan tree upside down. In Spiritual World everything is comprised of sat-cit-ananda. In this world we can be tricked

and duped in so many ways by external vesha.

 

From Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

Canto 12, Chapter 2

 

Text 3

"...a man will be known as a brahmana just by his wearing a thread."

 

Text 4

"A person's spiritual position will be ascertained merely according to external symbols, and on that basis people will change from one spiritual order to the

next..."

 

Text 5

"A person will be considered unholy if he does not have money, and hypocrisy will be accepted as virtue..."

 

Text 6

"...The principles of religion will be observed only for the sake of reputation."

 

SB Canto 12, Chapter 3

 

Text 30

"When there is a predominance of cheating...that age is Kali..."

 

Text 31

"...human beings will be...unfortunate..."

 

Text 32

"...the so-called priests and intellectuals will be devotees of their bellies and

genitals."

 

Text 33

"...the householders will become beggars, the vanaprasthas will live in the villages, and the sannyasis will become greedy for wealth."

 

Text 38

"Uncultured men will accept charity on behalf of the Lord and will earn their

livelihood by making a show of austerity and mendicant's dress..."

 

Text 45

"In the Kali-yuga, objects, places, and even individual personalities are all polluted.

 

Canto 12, Chapter 10, Text 23

"...external vision fails to appreciate the higher essence..."

 

So be careful!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if any really sincere people in Kali-Yuga just end up walking around looking totally normal by western standards just to pull a Vamsidas Babaji* in this age

 

*instead of placing a hookah and scattering fishbones outside their door to get the pretenders and faux devotees stay away from them.

 

I only wish that Prabhupada had published the Twelfth Canto FIRST before the Tenth, so we could have had a SB Consumer Reports Guide to spiritual life. It's an amazing checklist of all the stuff I've experienced [sB quotes above] and have observed while searching for the Absolute Truth.