Socialism and Vaishnavism

[Danielle Field]

Please could we have a discussion about socialism. I am a socialist and an aspirant Vaishnav and have no Guru to mediate between these two positions. I know I cannot rely on my own conclusions in this regard but I've never met anyone who can convince me of any contradictions between these two apparently opposing doctrines.

[Guest guest]

Isn't Communism mainly an ideology espoused by atheists?

[suchandra]

 

Please could we have a discussion about socialism. I am a socialist and an aspirant Vaishnav and have no Guru to mediate between these two positions. I know I cannot rely on my own conclusions in this regard but I've never met anyone who can convince me of any contradictions between these two apparently opposing doctrines.

 

First of all it would be important to know how far you came in understanding varnashrama dharma, the vedic idea of socialism? You say you're a socialist, could you explain this more precise how you define socialism?

[Danielle Field]

Sure. I don't have much time because I 'm sneaking on work's computer but I'll do my best to put it in a nutshell. I used to live at Karuna Bhavan in Scotland for 5 years as a full time devotee. As such I gained a particular understanding of Varnashrama Dharma according to the limited realisations that are available within the Iskcon organisation presently. On escaping that institution I met with members of the socialist worker's party who were sceptical of my faith and derided me for it but nonetheless enlivened my compassion through their desire to take responsibility for the material world and make it a place fit for the development and expansion of human consciousness by overthrowing capitalism. I have since joined the SWP after 4 years of debating with them and finally coming to the conclusion that that organisation, although overwhelmingly atheistic contains some of the most spiritually enlivened individuals whose passion for a better world and analysis of the current world situation from a purely material perspective is unparalleled, certainly by Iskcon whose effect on my life was nothing but debilitating and contradictory to the desires of Prabhupada.

 

Members of the SWP and Karl Marx himself were not so conceited as Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and others in asserting what a socialist society would look like, but they knew that they would only achieve peace on earth by ridding the planet of the scourge of capitalism and unleashing the spiritual potential within each living being. Marx was in no way shy of discussing spirituality in terms of expanding consciousness and he spoke out against oppressing religious groups. His oft misquoted statement that religion is the opium of the masses fails usually to incorporate his justification of religion as the sigh of the oppressed in a heartless world.

 

Marx was an atheist as he saw no fit reason to believe in a deity seen as though he had never met anyone that hadn't used religion as a means of oppressing and destroying spiritual creativity.

Prabhupada was sceptical of politcally motivated activists as he had never met one that was committed to the notion of spiritual development.

I feel unworthy to sit in between the ideas of these two great souls (Prabhupada unquestionably being the greater and indeed pure as opposed to Marx's demonstrable impurity) trying to mediate between their philosophies. I have done my part to encourage the SWP to take religious ideas seriously and they are responding by opening their dialogue to incorporate the idea that a religious person can be a socialist without need to convert to atheism.

 

I would love if I could inspire Vaishnavas to realise that some of the most spiritually advanced people alive today are engaged in activities intended to make the planet a place offerable to Krishna in spite of their lack of realisation of that objective. We need to break down these barriers of understanding and direct these people to their ultimate spiritual goal. It is capitalism that is holding back the sankirtan movement; the unchecked Vaishya tendency. We need to unlease the power of the masses to spiritually express their own social order which I believe will ultimately result in the organic expression of Varnashrama Dhama and not the false imposition of it from above by Vaishnava capitalists who are currently defiling Prabhupada's movement.

 

The lotus of human culture expands and develops and eventually closes again. First the Ksatriyas consume the Brahmin class, then the Vaishyas consume the Ksatriyas and eventually the sudras consume the vaishyas and nescience once again reigns. This is Kali Yuga in which the Sudras eventually rule, all other classes having been consumed. However, this is no regular Kali Yuga. A golden age is contained within it and I believe I can see the seeds that Prabhupada sowed fructifying in the high level of compassion and consciousness exhibited by the most advanced members of the working class movement.

 

Who knows what a golden age in Kali yuga really looks like? Certainly we should follow the principles laid down by Prabhupada but I fear Iskcon has failed to analyse its own political situation in terms of being a capitalist organisation and has fallen to the depths of depravity of which the capitalist class is capable of. We need to look practically at the world situation and not fear politics. The Pandavas were political actors and Prabhupada is most certainly a revolutionary. We must understand world politics in order to change the world. The working class is the only class around today that has the potential to overthrow the corrupt and wicked capitalist class. This is not sentimental, it is scientific and we have to look at what Marx has written with spiritual eyes in order to make it offerable, just as we would look at any material science in terms of how we can purify it and utilise it in the service of Prabhupada's movement. I'm going now because I have to and I'm really grateful that you asked me that and I'm really looking forward to your response. Thank you.

[Gauracandra]

My understanding of Varnashram is that it is very similar to Catholic economic doctrine called Distributism. This is often called Third Way economics. Look up G.K. Chesterton, and a book called The Outline of Sanity. He makes many good points.

 

One of the problems with Capitalism is it concentrates power and wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people. Interestingly, state sponsored socialism does the same, but instead of industrialists, it puts the power in even few hands -those of bureaucrats.

 

Distributism might be called small c Capitalism. It envisions a well distributed small property ownership. As such it believes in laws that support small family farms against agribusiness, and small store ownership over corporate megastores. But the key is the power is decentralised and local. We all have a corruptable heart. We'll all exploit if we can. The industrialist will do this, so will the bureaucrat. The distributist has the same heart, however, since power is devolved to the lowest level (subsidiarity) and since everyone has some ownership, there is a sort of balance. If you own 10 acres of land and I own 20 acres, I can't force you to sell and exploit you (even though this isn't a perfect balance). On the other hand, if I own 10,000 acres, and you own half an acre, thats where you see the demise of the family farm. In addition, they support Guilds for the training of various skills and maintaining wages (so as to oppose cut rate competition). If you're in Scotland you should definitely be able to get a copy of Chesterton's work The Outline of Sanity. Try the library. You might also try Hilaire Belloc's The Servile State (he was the co-founder of distributism with Chesterton).

[Gauracandra]

Here is the wikipedia entry for Distributism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

 

And here you can read The Outline of Sanity:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/martin.ward/gkc/books/Sanity.txt

 

A small excerpt:

 

"For instance, Capitalism is really a very unpleasant word. It is also a very unpleasant thing. Yet the thing I have in mind, when I say so, is quite definite and definable; only the name is a very unworkable word for it. But obviously we must have some word for it. When I say "Capitalism," I commonly mean something that may be stated thus: "That economic condition in which there is a class of capitalists, roughly recognizable and relatively small, in whose possession so much of the capital is concentrated

as to necessitate a very large majority of the citizens serving those capitalists for a wage." This particular state of things can and does exist, and we must have some word for it, and some way of discussing it. But this is undoubtedly a very bad word, because it is used by other people to mean quite other things. Some people seem to mean merely private property. Others suppose that capitalism must mean anything involving the use of capital. But if that use is too literal, it is also too loose and even too large. If the use of capital is capitalism, then everything is capitalism. Bolshevism is capitalism and anarchist communism is capitalism; and every revolutionary scheme, however wild, is still capitalism. Lenin and Trotsky believe as much as Lloyd George and Thomas that the economic operations of to-day must leave something over for the economic operations of to-morrow. And that is all that capital means in its economic sense. In that case, the word is useless. My use of it may be arbitrary, but it is not useless. If capitalism means private property, I am capitalist. If capitalism means capital, everybody is capitalist. But if capitalism means this particular condition of capital, only paid out to the mass in the form of wages, then it does mean something, even if it ought to mean something else.

 

The truth is that what we call Capitalism ought to be called Proletarianism. The point of it is not that some people have capital, but that most people only have wages because they do not have capital. I have made an heroic effort in my time to walk about the world always saying Proletarianism instead of Capitalism."

 

Also, look up the Mondragon Cooperative in Spain. It is one of the most successful cooperatives in the world, and was started by students of a Catholic priest who wanted to institute Distributism.

[Danielle Field]

I've studied third way politics at university and also experience living in Blair's Third Way paradise. As such I can see that Third Way politics lead to capitulation with the present power balance and offer no way of overthrowing it or tempering it. We are at a critical state in which unless some radical shift in world politics is achieved within the next decade we will have nothing but devastation. The seas are rising and global war is on the cards. In fact the world is already at war and the two sides are Capital and Labour. Capital uses Muslim's as scapegoats, just as it scapegoated Jews in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It goads fundamentalist factions into terrorist acts (I have to stress Islam is a peaceful faith and fundamentalists in no way represent the wishes of the masses). Capitalism doesn't mind terror because terror is what it reeks on the lives of the powerless. To understand the power contained within the working class to radically transform the world is to understand how week the capitalist class really is that it will resort to these tactics.

 

As for socialist societies being dependent upon bureaucracy it is, I believe inessential for bureaucracy to be perpetuated in the violent manner it is currently manifested if a global socialist revolution is factually achieved. Bureaucracy is necessary to perpetuate socialism in one state, which is a fools notion of socialism. Socialism is a global solution to the attack of the the globalised capitalist class. Third Way thinking is no good for overthrowing outdated notions of nation and power.

 

Hope that's not too rude but I'm really inimical to third way thinking. It only serves to perpetuate and justify the current abuse of power. Capitalists will not give up their privilege and power without a fight. The small local thinking of which you speak does, however, resonate with the notion of soviets and empowered communities which I am in favour of. However, the question is what needs to take place for those ideas to take root. This is no time to be squemish about revolution and we need to be practical about the means by which we organise and strategise the overthrow of the demonic powers that gorge on the earths resources. We have to do it as a devotional act in order to make the world a place fit for Krishna to be worshipped in all His glory.

[suchandra]

"We have to do it as a devotional act in order to make the world a place fit for Krishna to be worshipped in all His glory."

If I understand you correctly your approach is to first of all remove material injustice (rampant capitalism) from this world and then start to make people self-realized and God-conscious?

Introduce socialism as preliminary state towards the goal of a spiritual human society?

This is of course a most noble way of thinking - not just a few rare souls as Krishna says..

 

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare."

 

...but instead changing the whole world into a place of transcendentalists, pure servants of Krishna.

 

Actually one is wise when surrendering unto the Lotus feet of Krishna, but such a mahatma, great soul, is very rare.

Dont you assume that the world's population is already so advanced that they consider spiritual live as worthwhile?

What about if the opposite is true, the whole world wants to enjoy materialism? Introducing socialism by force and then forcing people to develop love of God? May be I'm too realistic, but for me it's even hard to see presently a lot of human beings in this world, rather I see animal consciousness within human bodies, so called humans but acting like crocodiles and rattlesnakes. Socialism like you say has to be introduced by force - but how does it work to change peoples heart of becoming detached from all those pleasures of this world?

 

 

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The Blessed Lord continues:

 

 

 

 

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

 

 

 

 

One who is not Krsna conscious is subjected to material desires while contemplating the objects of senses. The senses require real engagements, and if they are not engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, they will certainly seek engagement in the service of materialism. In the material world everyone, including Lord Siva and Lord Brahma--to say nothing of other demigods in the heavenly planets--is subjected to the influence of sense objects, and the only method to get out of this puzzle of material existence is to become Krsna conscious. Lord Siva was deep in meditation, but when Parvati agitated him for sense pleasure, he agreed to the proposal, and as a result Kartikeya was born. When Haridasa Thakura was a young devotee of the Lord, he was similarly allured by the incarnation of Maya-devi, but Haridasa easily passed the test because of his unalloyed devotion to Lord Krsna. As illustrated in the above-mentioned verse of Sri Yamunacarya, a sincere devotee of the Lord shuns all material sense enjoyment due to his higher taste for spiritual enjoyment in the association of the Lord. That is the secret of success. One who is not, therefore, in Krsna consciousness, however powerful he may be in controlling the senses by artificial repression, is sure ultimately to fail, for the slightest thought of sense pleasure will agitate him to gratify his desires.

 

 

 

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[Danielle Field]

Introducing socialism by force and then forcing people to develop love of God? - I don't want to force the general people to do anything. Socialism demands nothing of the people, it is an expression of their desire for a better world. It cannot be attained by force, but the desire for it can be fanned by being aware enough of the world situation to inspire people understand that their world has been stolen from them by the rich and the greedy. And as for forcing people to love God that is impossible. We need to create a situation where people's natural love of God and compassion for one another are not hindered by the economic circumstances in which they find themselves.

 

The concept of socialist ideas being a false imposition upon the consciousness of the working class by a group of merciless rebels is a representation of socialism as seen through the cowardly eyes of the group which socialist ideas attack. The capitalist class is terrified of socialism because it is the only force which threatens to rob them of their privilege. They like to believe that working class people are too stupid and feckless to organise society, but this is not the case. People when given the right opportunity to act according to their propensity relish the opportunity to do so. When you frustrate people's potential you bring about the dissolution of human culture and all you witness is people's consciousness in decline. Socialist ideas only operate when the working class consciousness is at such a level that they no longer accept this gross parody of socialist ideas from the capitalist class, when they realise the power they have to act collectively as a class for themselves. Don't believe the hype.

 

Human beings are capable of ridding themselves of the muck of ages by living in advanced conditions but also by aspiring for better conditions. This is why the Varnashrama system is there. Human beings need to work from where they're at towards where they need to go. From each according to their ability to each according to their need. People are at different stages of spiritual development and we need a society that develops all without limiting their potential. There has to be a balance. It demands a society that is subtle and not one based on the principles of competition. The trajectories of spiritual desire and material greed have to be balanced very carefully in order for spirtual goals to be achieved. Repression accomplishes nothing as I learnt at Karuna Bhavan.

 

In order for people to be able to develop a higher state of consciousness they need to be able to concentrate on the important things in life, take only what they need for the sake of self realisation. We need food, shelter, happy communities and an economic system that enables the potential in human culture to be released. Capitalism is the antithesis of this. It encourages greed and creates a world in its own image. It subverts all the good qualities in human beings by making us think individually and thereby undermining our compassion and concern for the well being of others. It crushes all forms of spiritual development.

 

We have the power to change this and the world is so thirsty for an end to the misery of individualism. The Neo-liberal agenda has gone too far and it is being maintained by military force. I'm not suggesting we use unnecessary force, only enough to chastise the errant minority which is the capitalist class. Like all demonic personalities they drag the consciousness of those around them down unless they are kept in check. I am suggesting we have the power to collectively shout "Enough!" and bring an end to the use of force, at least for a good age. There is enough people with no vested interest in the continuation of capitalism for it to be overthrown. They are the few. We are the many. The world belongs to Krishna not George Bush.

 

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll have another look at whats going on tomorrow. Hope thats ok.

[theist]

Srila Prabhupada used this term more than once. Communism dovetails nicely with Vaisnavism. Once in a conversation with his disciples someone brought up the Soviet symbol of the hammer and sickle and Srila Prabhupada responded by saying that the hammer could be taken off and tilak added in it's place. Tilak and sickle. Drop the heavy industrialization and concentrate on agriculture and dedicate that to Krsna. This will bring about a heaven on earth state for the planet and it's residents.

 

Godless attempts at Communism brought about the Soviet Union, communist China, North Korea etc. which are hardly to be considered worthy of emulation. Gaurachandra pointed out how state communism concentrates power in the hands of even fewer than Captalism. Castro is a prime example. He has positioned it that when he gives up power (by dying it looks like) it will then go to his brother. Looks like a little kingship in the making to me.

 

The Vaisnava view is that supreme power is eternally held by the Supreme Lord. All ownership rests with Krsna so why should we try to be owners of anything?

 

The first and ESSENTIAL thing that must be praticed for communism to work is the development of God consciousness. This is where true communism, spiritual communism, can be realized and praticed. This is the point where communism becomes perfect by dovetails itself with krsna's will for the earth.

 

These are not new ideas. Here is a qute that you are familar with from Sri Isopanishad.

[theist]

TRANSLATION verse 1

Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.

 

PURPORT

Vedic knowledge is infallible because it comes down through the perfect disciplic succession of spiritual masters, beginning with the Lord Himself. Since He spoke the first word of Vedic knowledge, the source of this knowledge is transcendental. The words spoken by the Lord are called apaurusheya, which indicates that they are not delivered by any mundane person. A living being who lives in the mundane world has four defects: (1) he is certain to commit mistakes; (2) he is subject to illusion; (3) he has a propensity to cheat others; and (4) his senses are imperfect. No one with these four imperfections can deliver perfect knowledge. The Vedas are not produced by such an imperfect creature. Vedic knowledge was originally imparted by the Lord into the heart of Brahma, the first created living being, and Brahma in his turn disseminated this knowledge to his sons and disciples, who have handed it down through history.

Since the Lord is purnam, all-perfect, there is no possibility of His being subjected to the laws of material nature, which He controls. However, both the living entities and inanimate objects are controlled by the laws of nature and ultimately by the Lord's potency. This Isopanishad is part of the Yajur Veda, and consequently it contains information concerning the proprietorship of all things existing within the universe.

The Lord's proprietorship over everything within the universe is confirmed in the Seventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita (7.4-5), where para and apara prakriti are discussed. The elements of nature -- earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego -- all belong to the Lord's inferior, material energy (apara prakriti),whereas the living being, the organic energy, is His superior energy (para prakriti). Both of these prakritis, or energies, are emanations from the Lord, and ultimately He is the controller of everything that exists. There is nothing in the universe that does not belong to either the para or the apara prakriti; therefore everything is the property of the Supreme Being.

Because the Supreme Being, the Absolute Personality of Godhead, is the complete person, He has complete and perfect intelligence to adjust everything by means of His different potencies. The Supreme Being is often compared to a fire, and everything organic and inorganic is compared to the heat and light of that fire. Just as fire distributes energy in the form of heat and light, the Lord displays His energy in different ways. He thus remains the ultimate controller, sustainer and dictator of everything. He is the possessor of all potencies, the knower of everything and the benefactor of everyone. He is full of inconceivable opulence, power, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation.

One should therefore be intelligent enough to know that except for the Lord no one is a proprietor of anything. One should accept only those things that are set aside by the Lord as his quota. The cow, for instance, gives milk, but she does not drink that milk: she eats grass and straw, and her milk is designated as food for human beings. Such is the arrangement of the Lord. Thus we should be satisfied with those things He has kindly set aside for us, and we should always consider to whom those things we possess actually belong.

Take, for example, our dwelling, which is made of earth, wood, stone, iron, cement and so many other material things. If we think in terms of Sri Isopanishad, we must know that we cannot produce any of these building materials ourselves. We can simply bring them together and transform them into different shapes by our labor. A laborer cannot claim to be a proprietor of a thing just because he has worked hard to manufacture it.

In modern society there is always a great quarrel between the laborers and the capitalists. This quarrel has taken an international shape, and the world is in danger. Men face one another in enmity and snarl just like cats and dogs. Sri Isopanishad cannot give advice to the cats and dogs, but it can deliver the message of Godhead to man through the bona fide acaryas (holy teachers). The human race should take the Vedic wisdom of Sri Isopanishad and not quarrel over material possessions. One must be satisfied with whatever privileges are given to him by the mercy of the Lord. There can be no peace if the communists or capitalists or any other party claims proprietorship over the resources of nature, which are entirely the property of the Lord. The capitalists cannot curb the communists simply by political maneuvering, nor can the communists defeat the capitalists simply by fighting for stolen bread. If they do not recognize the proprietorship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all the property they claim to be their own is stolen. Consequently they will be liable to punishment by the laws of nature. Nuclear bombs are in the hands of both communists and capitalists, and if both do not recognize the proprietorship of the Supreme Lord, it is certain that these bombs will ultimately ruin both parties. Thus in order to save themselves and bring peace to the world, both parties must follow the instructions of Sri Isopanishad.

Human beings are not meant to quarrel like cats and dogs. They must be intelligent enough to realize the importance and aim of human life. The Vedic literature is meant for humanity and not for cats and dogs. Cats and dogs can kill other animals for food without incurring sin, but if a man kills an animal for the satisfaction of his uncontrolled taste buds, he is responsible for breaking the laws of nature. Consequently he must be punished.

The standard of life for human beings cannot be applied to animals. The tiger does not eat rice and wheat or drink cow's milk, because he has been given food in the shape of animal flesh. Among the many animals and birds, some are vegetarian and others are carnivorous, but none of them transgress the laws of nature, which have been ordained by the will of the Lord. Animals, birds, reptiles and other lower life forms strictly adhere to the laws of nature; therefore there is no question of sin for them, nor are the Vedic instructions meant for them. Human life alone is a life of responsibility.

It is wrong, however, to think that simply by becoming a vegetarian one can avoid transgressing the laws of nature. Vegetables also have life, and while it is nature's law that one living being is meant to feed on another, for human beings the point is to recognize the Supreme Lord. Thus one should not be proud of being a strict vegetarian. Animals do not have developed consciousness by which to recognize the Lord, but a human being is sufficiently intelligent to take lessons from the Vedic literature and thereby know how the laws of nature are working and derive profit out of such knowledge. If a man neglects the instructions of the Vedic literature, his life becomes very risky. A human being is therefore required to recognize the authority of the Supreme Lord and become His devotee. He must offer everything for the Lord's service and partake only of the remnants of food offered to the Lord. This will enable him to discharge his duty properly. In the Bhagavad-gita (9.26) the Lord directly states that He accepts vegetarian food from the hands of a pure devotee. Therefore a human being should not only become a strict vegetarian but should also become a devotee of the Lord, offer the Lord all his food and then partake of such prasadam, or the mercy of God. Only those who act in this way can properly discharge the duties of human life. Those who do not offer their food to the Lord eat nothing but sin and subject themselves to various types of distress, which are the results of sin (Bg. 3.13).

The root of sin is deliberate disobedience of the laws of nature through disregarding the proprietorship of the Lord. Disobeying the laws of nature or the order of the Lord brings ruin to a human being. Conversely, one who is sober, who knows the laws of nature, and who is not influenced by unnecessary attachment or aversion is sure to be recognized by the Lord and thus become eligible to go back to Godhead, back to the eternal home.

[suchandra]

 

Like all demonic personalities they drag the consciousness of those around them down unless they are kept in check. I am suggesting we have the power to collectively shout "Enough!" and bring an end to the use of force, at least for a good age. There is enough people with no vested interest in the continuation of capitalism for it to be overthrown. They are the few. We are the many. The world belongs to Krishna not George Bush.

 

 

I find your work well researched and quite interesting, since you started this topic on spiritual socialism you surely want to discuss details in order to make things more clear. My question is who actually controls the monetary system in your model of spiritual socialism?

When looking at the root of modern global "capitalism" we soon discover a very questionable global monetary system. Without changing this how you want to introduce socialism? Wherever you find nations stuck within huge indebtedness it should be clear that they have a corrupt monetary system installed.

Under the Federal Reserve Bank Act, private bankers control our economy. The private FED controls interest rates and the amount of money in the economy. These factors determine either economic prosperity or the lack thereof. If we don't change this system in near future the only thing our taxes will pay is the interest on the national debt.

By abolishing the FED, we would not pay interest on Federal Reserve Notes. So, the first way is to have the government print the money, debt and interest- free, and circulate it through the economy for use as a medium of exchange. There is no tax levied to pay interest on the currency in circulation because it is debt and interest-free.

Under the FED system, when a new dollar is issued, we pay taxes to pay for the dollar as the principal (debt) plus interest on the dollar. We pay for each new dollar twice, and who gets most of the money? The private bankers, who control this money.

England never gave up on owning the United States. They are still silently fighting the same Revolutionary War. The private Bank of England, owns and controls the FED - not only the FED - the ECB, Bank of India, Bank of China as well, in sum 98% of the global currencies.

The private FED banking system collects billions of dollars in interest annually and distributes the profits to its shareholders. The Congress illegally gave the FED the right to print money (through the Treasury) at no interest to the FED. The FED creates money from nothing, and loans it back to us through banks, and charges interest on our currency. The FED also buys Government debt with money printed on a printing press and charges U.S. taxpayers interest. Many Congressmen and Presidents say this is fraud.

But how to introduce socialism on the basis of a global monetary system controlled and owned by private bankers?

 

--

MyWay, Thursday, March 16, 2006--Senate Passes $2.8 Trillion 2007 Budget

The Senate on Thursday passed an election-year budget plan forsaking President Bush's tax cuts and Medicare curbs, hours after lifting the ceiling on the national debt to $9 trillion.

BY Andrew Taylor

Treasury Secretary John Snow applauded Congress for "protecting the full faith and credit of the United States." He said it ensures that the government "can deliver on promises already made, such as Social Security and Medicare payments and aid for the victims of the 2005 hurricanes."

The present limit on the debt is $8.2 trillion.

The increase is an unhappy necessity - the alternative would be a disastrous first-ever default on U.S. obligations - that greatly overshadowed a mostly symbolic, weeklong debate on the GOP's budget resolution.

Democrats blasted the bill, saying it was needed because of fiscal mismanagement by Bush, who came to office when the government was running record surpluses.

"When it comes to deficits, this president owns all the records," said Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. "The three largest deficits in our nation's history have all occurred under this administration's watch."

 

------------------------------

Morning Walk with Srila Prabhupada, Johannesburg, October 16, 1975

You are cheated

 

Harikesa: So actually this money doesn't even exist in Vedic society—money.

Prabhupada: Money is not required. You require things. Just like instead of money, you are getting papers. Money means gold. Where is gold? You are cheated. Money means gold. So instead of possessing gold, you are possessing some paper, written there, "hundred dollars." And you are such a fool, you are satisfied. You are being cheated. Bank's cheque and currency notes, you keep it in your...—"Oh, here is my money." Is that money? Just see.

Devotee: They only do that to make it easier for them, because they've got so much money that they can't carry it...

Prabhupada: That's all right, but actually it is not money. You are befooled. You are such a fool that you accept a piece of paper as money. Therefore I say you are rascal. That is my business. If I say "Government, give me gold," and government has passed law, "No, you cannot possess gold," that means cheating. How I shall keep gold, that is my business. First of all you give me gold. It is due to me. But you are giving me paper. That means cheating is begun from you.

Harikesa: How will the government decide what my gold is and what his gold is? How does the gold get distributed?

Prabhupada: Gold coins. Formerly there was gold coins. We have seen in our childhood gold coins, silver coins. There was no paper.

Harikesa: But you have to do something to get it.

Prabhupada: Yes. I will have to do something. That is another thing. But why you are cheating me? Instead of gold, you are giving me paper.

[Danielle Field]

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try and clear a few things up. To Theist who spoke a couple of entries ago I'd like to say I'm aware of the floors with the varieties of existing "socialism" that we have seen in the world and I'm no advocate of socialism in one country. When this happens the country itself tends to become nothing but a corporate state in which all the activities of the state function as a large company within the wider capitalist system. Capitalism is a global system and only when it has been overthrown globally will socialism in truth be realised.

 

Socialism means nothing when it is not an expression of the will of the mass of people and so any enforced regime of socialism is a mockery of the concept. You are right to say that to hand over power from one dictator to another is akin to feudal kingship and must be criticised.

 

Marxism is social science. Marx brilliantly analysed how society changes according to the economic means of production. There are the 4 stages which he has identifiied, primal communism or tribal communism, feudalism, capitalism and socialism. According to the surplus value each society creates then different means become available to that society in terms of organising labour. Eventually old means of production become anachronistic and new methods must break free from the old in order to unleash the potential contained within each new emerging system.

 

Forgive me if I'm boring you with text book Marxist arguments, but I'm trying to build up to a spiritual point. What I think this analysis is indicating is how, when certain people are freed within society to speculate upon philisophical matters human society gains access to higher levels of knowledge and technology which enable greater insights to be made into the workings of consciousness the more people are freed from the mundane struggle for existence. This happened in ancient Greece and we are still reeping the benefits of realisations made by thinkers like Archimedes and Aristotle today. Krishna is knowledge and any advancements which allow for greater insights into knowledge and technology can be used to spiritually advance the greater populace.

 

I do feel uncomfortable doing this but I must so please forgive me. Prabhupada says we should be focused on agriculture and not industry and this may be true, but as far as I see it, unless there is some great cataclysm that destroys large sections of the world's population we are not going to return to feudal forms of organisation. Capitalism has unleashed the social organisation of labour upon us and in so doing it has given birth to its own grave diggers. Social organisation of labour is capable of freeing more people from mundane labour and allowing greater swathes of the world's population to engage in spiritual enquiry. Of course we will always need to bathe, cook, clean and engage in spiritually uplifting labour for the maintenance of mind body and soul. According to the Bhagavad Gita labour is sacred. It engages our bodies in activities that bond us in Union through devotion with the Lord.

 

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits. Capitalists do nothing to engage in creative processes and yet reap most of the rewards. I'll have to go and continue tomorrow.

[Guest guest]

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits.****

 

The investment running to millions, including machinery and other capital goods, land, and labor, comes from the capitalist. It's only logical that he reaps the max. benefit. Or, are you suggesting that a person who invests millions should get the exact payment as the one who invests nothing more than his skills and time??

 

If so, who's going to be the distributor, the state or business or labor? How much will the distributor receive? And distribution will be based on what? If it's joint ownership of the means of production, there will be no such thing as "wages", because with every member as an investor, there will only be profits (to be shared) without wages. Evidently, you can see how absurd that is. What's worse, with such ownership, there will be no proletariat class either, as everyone will be an investor in the said project. In other words, by implementing what you call socialism, every worker will have to become a Bourgeois.

 

So please give up these fancy ideas of socialism. It is utterly impracticable. Capitalism is the way to go.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits.****

 

The investment running to millions, including machinery and other capital goods, land, and labor, comes from the capitalist. It's only logical that he reaps the max. benefit. Or, are you suggesting that a person who invests millions should get the exact payment as the one who invests nothing more than his skills and time??

 

If so, who's going to be the distributor, the state or business or labor? How much will the distributor receive? And distribution will be based on what? If it's joint ownership of the means of production, there will be no such thing as "wages", because with every member as an investor, there will only be profits (to be shared) without wages. Evidently, you can see how absurd that is. What's worse, with such ownership, there will be no proletariat class either, as everyone will be an investor in the said project. In other words, by implementing what you call socialism, every worker will have to become a Bourgeois.

 

So please give up these fancy ideas of socialism. It is utterly impracticable. Capitalism is the way to go.

 

 

Well - at last - there is something we can agree on!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try and clear a few things up. To Theist who spoke a couple of entries ago I'd like to say I'm aware of the floors with the varieties of existing "socialism" that we have seen in the world and I'm no advocate of socialism in one country. When this happens the country itself tends to become nothing but a corporate state in which all the activities of the state function as a large company within the wider capitalist system. Capitalism is a global system and only when it has been overthrown globally will socialism in truth be realised.

 

Socialism means nothing when it is not an expression of the will of the mass of people and so any enforced regime of socialism is a mockery of the concept. You are right to say that to hand over power from one dictator to another is akin to feudal kingship and must be criticised.

 

Marxism is social science. Marx brilliantly analysed how society changes according to the economic means of production. There are the 4 stages which he has identifiied, primal communism or tribal communism, feudalism, capitalism and socialism. According to the surplus value each society creates then different means become available to that society in terms of organising labour. Eventually old means of production become anachronistic and new methods must break free from the old in order to unleash the potential contained within each new emerging system.

 

Forgive me if I'm boring you with text book Marxist arguments, but I'm trying to build up to a spiritual point. What I think this analysis is indicating is how, when certain people are freed within society to speculate upon philisophical matters human society gains access to higher levels of knowledge and technology which enable greater insights to be made into the workings of consciousness the more people are freed from the mundane struggle for existence. This happened in ancient Greece and we are still reeping the benefits of realisations made by thinkers like Archimedes and Aristotle today. Krishna is knowledge and any advancements which allow for greater insights into knowledge and technology can be used to spiritually advance the greater populace.

 

I do feel uncomfortable doing this but I must so please forgive me. Prabhupada says we should be focused on agriculture and not industry and this may be true, but as far as I see it, unless there is some great cataclysm that destroys large sections of the world's population we are not going to return to feudal forms of organisation. Capitalism has unleashed the social organisation of labour upon us and in so doing it has given birth to its own grave diggers. Social organisation of labour is capable of freeing more people from mundane labour and allowing greater swathes of the world's population to engage in spiritual enquiry. Of course we will always need to bathe, cook, clean and engage in spiritually uplifting labour for the maintenance of mind body and soul. According to the Bhagavad Gita labour is sacred. It engages our bodies in activities that bond us in Union through devotion with the Lord.

 

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits. Capitalists do nothing to engage in creative processes and yet reap most of the rewards. I'll have to go and continue tomorrow.

 

The communists are concerned with adjusting material things, which can actually never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. [srila Prabhupada in The Quest for Enlightenment]

[Danielle Field]

Certainly socialism would fail if its motives were purely material and for the large part the development of socialism has been atheistic and has challenged state endorsed religion my enshrouding itself in atheism. This situation has been exacerbated by the unwillingness of religious people to engage with atheistic persons and to deride their beliefs as profane.

 

To Suchandra I just want to say you have some great ideas which in truth I find difficult to fully absorb but what you need in order to get rid of corrupt monetary systems is a socialist revolution. You need to get rid of the need for these complex legal and financial systems by getting rid of the oppressive system that such institutions service. If you get rid of the need to oppress people to make profit from their labour you get rid of the need to have complex means by which to protect your inflated power (by your I mean capitalists not literally you personally).

 

If worker's organised and overthrew the state they would then be in a position to counter attack any capitalist attempt at counter revolution and devise a society that doesn't contain inherent contradictions of interest. If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness.

 

I am thoroughly sympathetic to atheistic people who have rejected religion because of the overwhelming level of sentimentality and political irresponsibility that many religious people seem to think is perfectly acceptable. To think that prayer alone will bring about a better world is lazy. We pray for consciousness and direction but we have to engage in activity as an act of devotion.

 

Capitalists are currently usurping God within society. They say that it is right that they should be in a position to economically empower or disempower people. People are a utility that is servicable or otherwise. To Tackleberry I have to say can you not see that Capitalism is just the economic product of humanities baseist desires to express ownership of people and to control them as it is only God's right to do so?

 

I implore you not to rest on predjudices regarding the power of international socialism. At this juncture in Kali Yuga ordinarily the sudras take control and human culture deteriorates but I promise you these are no ordinary sudras. They will have their revolution whether we like it or not. It is up to us to be a part of it to make it work and create a spiritual future.

[Samia]

 

Please could we have a discussion about socialism. I am a socialist and an aspirant Vaishnav and have no Guru to mediate between these two positions. I know I cannot rely on my own conclusions in this regard but I've never met anyone who can convince me of any contradictions between these two apparently opposing doctrines.

 

Sounds to me like you don`t want to change your thinking.

 

 

[Danielle Field]

What I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion with someone and I'm getting a bit tired of the tit for tat nonesense that goes on in here. What do you mean when you say it sounds like you don't want to change my thinking? What's the point in saying that? I have had to change my thinking dramatically to come to the conclulsions that I have arrived at. I would still be an Iskcon numpty otherwise. I've been brainwashed and I've recovered with the help of people who have been willing to engage in debate and take on new ideas and I'm hoping to continue that trend.

 

I think there is a massive rift that has grown between spiritually minded people and political people that doesn't need to be there. I want spiritually minded people to take on the challenges that political people throw at them because we can and we should, and I have and its working. Your disposable "you just don't want to change your thinking" comment fails to address any of that. You want to be able to dismiss me because you cannot fully appreciate where I'm coming from. Iskcon does exactly the same thing and thats why its incapable of growing and becoming the revolutionary force that Prabhupada originally intended it to be. We've ruined that initial momentum, squandered it to the point where Iskcon deveotees have basically become sales people, pitching a product, all teeth and no heart. These are my concerns. NOt to be right and win the argument. If all you want me to do is go away I guess I will if I'm not going to get anywhere. I'll just have to see if anyone is actually well informed enough to take on my challenge instead of this childlike banter.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I'll just have to see if anyone is actually well informed enough to take on my challenge instead of this childlike banter.

 

We've done just that but you've dismissed the central facts out-of-hand in this connection...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

If worker's organised and overthrew the state they would then be in a position to counter attack any capitalist attempt at counter revolution and devise a society that doesn't contain inherent contradictions of interest. If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness.

 

I hear talk of 'revolution like this and - I'm concerned - the very idea of encouraging 'the workers' [or anyone] to 'overthrow the state' - is disconcerting. The western states do not need such a fix and in those places that might - it's improvident to encourage people to such risks of themselves and/or others.

 

In what manner do you propose this 'revolutionary overthrow of the state' to occur?

 

You write:

 

"If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness."

 

Even though you apparently say "not through means of force" that comment tells me that you are inclined to fight [if even by well-wishing in your heart] along with the global islamic revolution [who by the way are not fighting for a better world] - you seem to think that a "revolution" is needed and that religious people should not 'shun those fighting for a better world' - you seem to say that is the answer to make the world 'holy' - that is interesting - when taken with your comments in these other postings:

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/world-review/413646-religion-responsible-israel-palestine-problem-2.html]

 

"[muslims]have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies... Its easy for me to say though, I'm not a Muslim and can only imagine how appalling it must be to watch people of my faith being slaughtered and defiled on so many different fronts the world over, just as the Jewish population once experienced. How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..."

 

If Muslims seem to be in a bad light it's only because of the terror programs of radicals and militants that claim to be acting on behalf of Islam - the comparison to the persecutions of the Jews in previous times - is complete illusion.

 

You explain away the islamic revolution's terrorism which is growing in our world in this statement:

 

"...[muslims] have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies...How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..." - that is factually a predaceous perspective. It is so much appolgetics for terrorists.

 

Muslims are NOT being targetted in the manner in which you say - especially in North American nor can one see that in Europe either.

 

"Socialism demands nothing of the people, it is an expression of their desire for a better world. It cannot be attained by force..." - that seems to contradict your ideas of the 'workers over-throwing the state' - as you seem to be saying that [since] it isn't by force that people become socialists but - it is by force that socialists and communists try to gain widespread control - it is a natural course.

 

Without doubt - it is propaganda huckstering at the heart of any transformations of most peoples - into socialists and communists not - "an expression of their desire for a better world" that "desire for a better world" is what the 'propaganda hucksters' employ to blight the average person's political and economic undertandings hopes and expectations - especially when concering the less informed 'worker classes'.

 

It's a desire for power - in a more absolute capacity that captures the 'others' to such 'collective predation' ideologies.

 

These points do seem to eclipse one another in your postings.

 

The kind of 'revolution' of which you speak is not constructive - look to Mao and the 'peoples revolution' - yes there's the model - of course - i do understand that you wish to add the 'vedic' concept to the socialism - however - i wonder about the end result - as contrasted to your call for revolution and with whom you'll identify in that effort.

 

You wrote this in another posting on this thread:

 

What I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion with someone and I'm getting a bit tired of the tit for tat nonesense that goes on in here. What do you mean when you say it sounds like you don't want to change my thinking? What's the point in saying that? I have had to change my thinking dramatically to come to the conclulsions that I have arrived at. I would still be an Iskcon numpty otherwise. I've been brainwashed and I've recovered with the help of people who have been willing to engage in debate and take on new ideas and I'm hoping to continue that trend.

 

"I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion" - So that is what you've gotten from us "ISKCON numpty's" - i wonder how you can say that you were brainwashed [by ISKCON?] and that you "would still be an ISKCON numpty" and - still talk of Prabhupada's teachings.

 

Who helped you to 'recover' [from what?] and how did they do that?

 

One can hear you praise Marx [and his estimation of things] in many places within your postings and yet - you haven't really presented any substantive Prabhupada quotes? I wonder if it is that you wish to motivate 'less informed devotees' into your persepctive by a seeming connection to Prabhupada's position on these matters...

 

Here is something that Srila Prabhupada stated - to a leader - which makes good sense and - it is a far better approach - than widespread Marxism and/or any other such [false] 'empower the people' programs:

 

Prabhupada: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view.

Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the...

Prabhupada: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he’ll manage, he’ll manage. But if he’s not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn’t matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. [Room conversation with Lord Brockway, July 23, 1973]

 

So that is an interesting point:

 

...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate our leaders] and now with the WWW and their broad interest in things that are discussed around the world - they can become thus 'educated' as he notes.

 

The point to know too is that the 'perfection' of which he speaks concerns position rather than actual personal perfection because - while no one is perfect - one can be 'perfectly situated'. So that is the idea.

 

In so far as my understanding of Prabhupada that is the program to save the world.

 

Sincerely,

 

[theist]

 

Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try and clear a few things up. To Theist who spoke a couple of entries ago I'd like to say I'm aware of the floors with the varieties of existing "socialism" that we have seen in the world and I'm no advocate of socialism in one country. When this happens the country itself tends to become nothing but a corporate state in which all the activities of the state function as a large company within the wider capitalist system. Capitalism is a global system and only when it has been overthrown globally will socialism in truth be realised.

 

Wishful thinking I believe Danielle. Even if Capitalism were to be overthrown globally, which is not going to happen in the next thousand years, human nature being what it is, the overthrowers would just enthrone themselves as they became addicted to the sense of power they have gained,i.e. Mao, Stalin, Castro etc.

 

Let's not think of these Red "revolutionaries" as selfless beings come to save the day and who work only for good of all others. They are not. The problem I see with this ideology is that it has no metaphysics. If you want to combine socialism with Vaisnavism then you will have to apply the truths of Vaisnavism into the mix. I don't hear you doing that.

 

 

Socialism means nothing when it is not an expression of the will of the mass of people and so any enforced regime of socialism is a mockery of the concept.

 

Here is an example of what I said previously. The will of the mass of people is to be number one and so ultimately you have the mass of people in agreement on that point at least but the result will be as chaotic and unsatisfying as it is now as they all jockey for a better position.

 

Service to God and others as parts of God is integral to the living being and not the false attempt to be #1. No material scheme including socialism will ever cure this. You would end up with 6-7 billion people agreeing they have the best shot at being happy in the material wold through socialism but the problem is not one of them will achieve their goals. The living beings only real happiness comes from loving and serving Krsna.

 

 

 

What I think this analysis is indicating is how, when certain people are freed within society to speculate upon philisophical matters human society gains access to higher levels of knowledge and technology which enable greater insights to be made into the workings of consciousness the more people are freed from the mundane struggle for existence.

 

Right but that freedom to think on spiritual things you and I enjoy now and the world is not socialist.

 

As I heard one time when Srila Prabhupada arrived at an Indian airport after becoming famous through his mission in the west a reporter asked him if he was dvaita(dualist) or advaita (monist). Srila Prabhupada scoffed at the question and said a "hungry man does not want to discuss philosophy." India was at that time beset with famine (Bangladesh). So your point is well taken that as humans we must have our basic material needs met or we risk losing sight of spiritual life due to poverty. The rich man has a similar problem. He is also distracted away from spiritual life by over accumulation of material goods. Without the Vaisnava understanding as the basis for socialism the genuine goals of human life will never be realized no matter what the governing system happens to be. It is the absence Vaisnavism in Marx and Engles that renders them meaningless despite their many good ideas.

 

 

 

Krishna is knowledge and any advancements which allow for greater insights into knowledge and technology can be used to spiritually advance the greater populace.

 

Yes anything can be used as tools to search for Sri Krsna. But they are not essential. I don't need a Phd in neuroscience to analyze neurons in hopes of finding consciousness someday. That search all happens within by the grace of the Supersoul. Marx has nothing to say about the Supersoul so why should anyone be his follower?

 

 

I do feel uncomfortable doing this but I must so please forgive me. Prabhupada says we should be focused on agriculture and not industry and this may be true, but as far as I see it, unless there is some great cataclysm that destroys large sections of the world's population we are not going to return to feudal forms of organisation.

 

If you really want socialism to overtake the planet you will have to have some prototypes. And once established small local collectives will still make up the mass of the planets living and production arrangments. And the prime necessity will always remain grains and not nuts, bolts and Ipods. I don't hear Srila Prabhupada advocating for a return to feudal society. He does advocate simple living and high thinking. Factories are not simple living despite there being set up under Capitalist or Socialism .

 

 

 

 

According to the Bhagavad Gita labour is sacred. It engages our bodies in activities that bond us in Union through devotion with the Lord.

 

 

Agreed, most definetly. But you find that in the Bhagavad-gita and not the Communist Manifesto.

 

 

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits. Capitalists do nothing to engage in creative processes and yet reap most of the rewards. I'll have to go and continue tomorrow.

 

No argument here. But Marxism without Krsna is as much dead energy as large scale Capitalism without Krsna. Vaisnavism is transcendental to them both.

 

My friendily offered critique is that you are putting the cart before the horse.

[Samia]

 

I think there is a massive rift that has grown between spiritually minded people and political people that doesn't need to be there.

 

And that is the whole of your problem

 

PS you say you don`t want tit for tat but you seem to take shots at ISKCON and its members as often as you can, so what is it ?

[Danielle Field]

In truth I didn't actually realise this was an Iskcon site. Sorry. I also missed these postings because I didn't realise we'd gone onto two pages so I'll look at your responses more thoughtfully and get back to you. I think there is a lot of unpacking of ideas going on and it looks like a better discussion than i first anticipated.

 

Ok. I have a problem with Iskcon because I lived in an Iskcon temple for 5 years and it was a deeply unpleasant and thoroughly unspiritual experience. I ended up with an eating disorder and kleptomania for which I was kicked out. I had become so institutionalised that I would never imagine the prospect of leaving of my own accord and it took me a good few months to recover. I went to university because I could no longer claim benefits after 6 months and it seemed like the only way I could get hold of money and spend as minimal amount of time with other people as possible. I didn't understand how to get a job or to live properly in the outside world.

 

At university I studied social policy and all the while I kept thinking of Varnashrama Dharma. I have never stopped believing it was possible and deeply desired to understand how it could be possible. I learnt about the economic organisation of society and the effects that social policies have on people's ability to rationalise the circumstances in which they find themselves. This actively enabled me to understand everything that was wrong about life in an Iskcon temple and how the movement itself had fallen pray to the philosophy of the overarching economic order - Capitalism.

 

I began to understand that Capitalism was the Vaishya tendency driven out of control and thereby began to take socialist ideas of overthrowing capitalism on board having witnessed how a lack of critique of the capitalist order had driven Iskcon into disrepute. I don't believe as theist believes that these people are motivated by anything other than as desire to create a better world. I have spoken with them and worked with them and argued to the death with them and I find them to have many spiritual qualities. It frustrates me that it is often misguided beliefs about religion that prevent them from articulating the faith that is obviously there is their hearts.

 

They sacrifice their time and resources selflessly for the cause and in that I see the spark of devotion. The problem is that whenever they encounter someone of faith they are derided and told that their efforts are worthless. At one time socialists were arrogant I daresay and the stain of that reputation has been hard to shift. Today they are not. They have grown and they listen so long as you can debate with them on their terms. The people I have been discussing with now admit for the large part that their atheism is more of a faith than a politcal necessity and are more open to the notion of agnosticism.

 

I went to a meeting last night on Marxism and Religion and found out that a 30% of the people in the room had a faith of one description or another and this is the case today. More and more religious people are getting involved in socialism because they are appalled by the horrors that the IMF, WTO and World Bank are enforcing upon the majority of the world's population. Yes you and I have enough material comfort to contemplate metaphysical issues but that is not the concern of a vaishnava. OUr concern is that all human beings be liberated.

 

Having studied global politics it is quite clear to me that it is capitalism which is holding Africa to ransom and preventing the growth of its infrastructures, it is capitalism which is displacing the world's population and creating rightless persons around the world who are ripe for exploitation in the capitalist nerve centres of the world. Capitalism polarises, it chops and changes and creates instability. My position is simply this, if you don't see that the world is already in turmoil and at constant war it is because you live in the belly of the beast at not at the ruthless end of its nashing jaws. The world is already in complete flux and will die not live to see another 100 let alone 1000 years unless people of conscience make the decision to act now. This is faith, faith that something can be done. Faith in Prabhupada that his mission will succeed.

 

Muslims who believe in separatist measures will fail to bring about the peace required to practice their religion. Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. The workers are actually in control of production the world over. Capitalists must use force, the threat of expulsion or denial of the right to labour in order to exact all the excess profits. It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply until that resource runs out and capitalism can function no longer in its present form.

 

I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. I don't know his or Marx's quotes by heart. I know that Prabhupada was skeptical of the motives of socialists but socialism has grown and it is ready, I believe to address issues of God Consciousness. So long as we take the need to change the world and make it a peaceful place seriously they will and do take us seriously. For as long as we say that the world is in no need of change and those that suffer do so at their own hands, they will not. Hope thats not too self orientated but I felt my opinions required a little context. I have nothing but respect for Prabhupada and sincerely fear challenging his position on socialism. This is why I must get to the bottom of this by consulting Vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

Dear Danielle,

 

1. You sound like a smart person. What you are doing sounds like "engaged Buddhism". So just call it "engaged Hinduism" or "engaged Sanatana Dharma"

and you are on your way.

 

2. Atheism is also part of Hinduism. See recent entry by vijay under "Spiritual Discussions", thread of "Is ISKCON Hindu?"

 

3. Bhag Gita: "Whatever you do, do for Me."

 

So whatever you do, offer it to the Divine: whatever your conception of the

Divine is.

 

PS - You might enjoy the book, "Women, Race, and Class" by Angela Y. Davis

New York, Random House Vintage Books, 1983. She is one of the most famous African-American Marxist feminists in the United States.

 

It covers the period of time of slavery in the 1800s, women's rights and suffrage in the 1900s, to the modern day the issues of oppressed women. Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones wrote a song about her "Sweet Black Angel". This book and that song highlights the compassion that Angela Y. Davis has for the suffering of others.

 

In Sanskrit "charya pada" refers to good conduct. This is from the Agamas.

It is one of the four stages of progress on the path. In the charya pada satge one learns how to live righteously and serve selflessly, performing karma yoga. That sounds like what you and your friends are doing.

 

May Supreme Goddess bless you!