Socialism and Vaishnavism

[Danielle Field]

Thanks for being so supportive. I will definitely follow your leads. Thats what I feel I'm needing, some guidance. I feel the loss of a genuine guru greatly having been duped into accepting a false one previously. Your most kind to take me seriously and it is appreciated.

[theist]

Danielle,

 

This is not an Iskcon site. Many have different affiliations other than Iskcon and many of us have no specific affiliation. No need to overly censor yourself.

 

Radhe! Radhe!

[theist]

Gauracandra prabhu,

 

I was wondering if you might give us a short synopsis on the Catholics Distributism. I had never heard of it before.

[Guest guest]

Dear Danielle,

 

You're welcome. You sound very serious and sincere. I am so sorry to hear about your bad experiences with losing a guru. This has happened to me also.

More than once.

 

I want to give you every possible bit of support that I can. In a most interesting book called "The Jewel Ornament of Liberation", translated by

Gampopa [a Sanskrit text smuggled into Tibet so it would not be lost or

destroyed] is delineated various types of kukarmas or papa, sins.

 

One of the most heinous sins is to cause someone to lose faith in the dharma. So there will be a karmic reaction for people who act in such a

way to destroy faith in the dharma.

 

However, I have found [for myself] that the dharma is eternal. And it can

spring up in the most unlikely ways in front of our eyes. Such as you have discovered a timeless truth that it feels good and morally right to help others and to have compassion for others, and not just to talk about it but to live it.

 

All glories to you! I have learned so much about what the dharma means

from ordinary people, including atheists. In fact, when I was exploited two, three times in a row by a string of gurus/ spiritual authorities as a young person, then it was an atheist family that helped me to get back on my feet.

 

I hope that it helps you to feel better that in Hinduism there is even atheism.

Know for sure that God is in each and every person's heart. Know that God

has many faces, attributes, and names, and people have different relationships with the Absolute at different times.

 

That is why within Hinduism there is even a school of atheism, because it is

another facet of the search for the Divine.

 

I wish you well and I wish you the best. Many, many a time I have been so

freaked out and upset by some people's conception of the "spiritual path"

that I turned and ran in the opposite direction, hoping to run as far away

from Krsna as I could. However Krsna is very funny Guy.

 

Perhaps you have heard some stories about Him. He doesn't lose interest in

people very easily. Plus He is magical. So you can think you are running

thousands and millions of miles away from Him to get away from Him. You

can be running as fast as you can in what you think is the opposite direction.

 

However what I have found is usually you end up running smack into Him,

like in the cartoons about Wiley Coyote and the Road-runner. Krsna is quite

humorous Trickster and the original Merry Prankster. Of course it is not so

funny to us when bad things happen to good people.

 

But what that does is: you are forced to go within when bad things happen. You are forced to re-evaluate what is real and what is unreal. Then if you

are sincere, like how you sound to me, then you upgrade all of your precious

conceptions. And what is God if not the Absolute Truth?

 

I am just amazed how sincere you are: that you would still even care about

what Prabhupada might think or say after all that you have been through.

You sound to me like a courageous, remarkable person with a heart of gold.

 

Use your internal compass for what you think is pure and true and worthy of

putting all of your energy and attention into. By serving others and caring about others, not ourselves, we develop the soul body according to some

rsis. The anava mala drops off [anava = the ego] by thinking of others and

not just ourselves.

 

The anava mala is comprised of 36 evolutes or tattvas. At the time of death we want to have lived a good life so that all 36 beads on the anava mala drop off and all we are left with is our own pure spark of the Divine, saccidananda or the anandamaya kosha face to face with the Divine

who is beyond all tattvas.

 

Some unfortunate persons are put into a position where they appear to be

spiritual and learned but actually they are adding even more beads to the

basic 36 tattva anava mala ego we all have. Keep on being a good girl and

doing the right things, pray to God from the core of your heart.

 

"When the soul gradually reduces and then stops altogether its participation in darkness and inauspicious powers, the Friend of teh World, God, reveals to the soul the limitless character of its knowledge and activity." - - Mrigendra Agama Jnana Pada 5.A1. MA, 138.

 

There are many many scriptures in Hinduism revealed by the great risis and seers besides the Bhagavad Gita to help souls evolve. In fact there are 14 valid sampradayas in HInduism which correspond to the 14 currents in the sushumna or the kundalini power of the spine that can take you to the door of Brahma the highest chakra. Perhaps an All-Merciful God was even anticipating that some souls would be fried with certain groups by doing so.

 

The Agamas describe the charya pada path as the first stage towards the soul developing the spotless purity needed to become fully mature. I congratulate you for treading the charya pada path and I wish all the

very best success on the path, in life, and with everything to you!

 

Aum Tat Sat

Namaste

[Gauracandra]

Theist,

 

Distributism is an economic philosophy developed by two Catholic thinkers (inspired by the Papal encyclical Rerum Novarum) in the early 1900s by the names of G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. Chesterton was a very well known writer (throughout the English Empire) and journalist who converted to Catholicism late in life. He is said to have written an article that inspired Gandhi to start his non-violent protests against the English (though I've never found the article itself). What I've heard is that the article essentially calls on India to be more Indian and in so doing they could remove the British control of their country (apparently he also inspired Irish rebellions in

much the same way). It is interesting in this connection that Gandhi's philosophy of small farming, crafts, and village life is very much similar to Chesterton's philosophy of Distributism.

 

 

Distributism is based on subsidiarity or doing things at the lowest level possible and as the name would suggest about the distribution of capital especially physical capital in the form of land. Now it is specifically in this way that it differs from Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism. You see, in

capitalism the wealth naturally concentrates into the hands of fewer and fewer people. Why is this so? Because after a certain point in wealth accumulation all of one's basic needs are taken care of. Capital, which is that which is left over after consumption, therefore continues to accumulate. Socialists and communists saw this same principle at work

and so the socialists decided they should have a government that takes wealth from the capitalists and create various social programs, through which they controlled society. In this case socialism takes the wealth from the industrialists and puts it into fewer hands - those of bureaucrats (who of course always do what is right, and never stifle new ideas). Communists basically said "Since wealth and power are going to concentrate, in the first stage of capitalism, and in the second stage of socialism, lets just jump straight to the logical conclusion of the third stage of communism and take over all the production."

 

 

Enter Distributism which says the problem with capitalism, socialism, and communism is that they keep concentrating power. They build huge structures up that oppress the people below that have to hold it up. What needs to happen is to break up power, and redistribute it to the people. As Chesterton says, the problem with Capitalism is it results in too few capitalists. In this respect,

Distributism affirms the principle of private property but not unlimited private property. Chesterton says the institution of private property no more means the right to unlimited property than the institution of marriage means the right to more than one wife. Lines are drawn and limits set as we live in a world of constraints. Now that might initially require government intervention simply because the current system has become so top heavy as it is.

 

 

The goal is to establish as wide ownership of land as possible as well as instituting laws that protect the small business person against the large corporation. Industrialism was already starting to have its toll even in pre-War Europe. The small farmers were starting to feel the pressure from industrial farming, and today there are virtually no small farms in existence. At the same time the small shops have been destroyed by Megacorporations such as Walmart (which has a market capitalization of like a quarter of a trillion dollars). It is funny, several years ago Walmart tried to enter into Vermont and all the small store owners in Vermont banded together to keep Walmart out. What did Walmart do? They sued claiming these puny little small stores were being uncompetitive. Competition in capitalism is when the big guys consume the small guys. But if the small guys get together to fight for their very survival well thats just wrong.

 

 

Ultimately Distributism saw the effects entering the culture. In the first place you had a culture of ownership. If you owned your own farm, or owned your own shop, or owned your own set of tools and had a skill, you had a sense of self-worth. Even if you weren't rich you could control your life. You could get up when you needed to. You could arrange time off to be with your family. You had a place in society. But with the concentration of power you lost that inherent human dignity. In Capitalism the boss told you when to arrive, what to do, when to do it. In Socialism the government

told you when to arrive, what to do, and when to do it. You lost the dignity of self-determination.

 

 

That is not to say they were against business. But the flavor of society so to speak should be about small property ownership, small business, crafts and skills that are community based. There should be community art and culture. In this way you actually have diversity. Part of the country will be very different from another part of the country. But with mass merchandising, mass advertising, mass communications, we break down diversity, and while everyone thinks they are getting a great variety, in fact they find they are just getting the same thing over and over.

 

 

Now how to go about this? Even they thought it would be a feat similar to swimming against Niagara Falls. But they believed, one way or another, society would move back to a simpler structure. Either by choice or by collapse. There are a number of suggestions of what to do, for instance changing the tax code to give breaks to small farms and small businesses, over corporations. The corporation is basically a way of accumulating mass capital through selling small shares, thus corporations as distinct from sole proprietorships naturally work to concentrate wealth. Creating Guilds for various occupations to ensure the training and wages of the working class. Other suggestions would be for the government to pass zoning laws against large shopping centers, free legal care for the poor so that the small man can fight the big man, the distribution of government land holdings to the people etc....

 

 

But ultimately it comes down to people choosing to build their communities, rather than having them shaped by impersonal invisible hands. In this respect I think the devotees are much further along than many Catholics, who talk in theory about Distributism. Say what we will about our farming communities, many are in various levels of success, but atleast devotees are actively creating them. They may not farm them (or many don't) but they are trying their best to swim up against Niagara Falls. I think because we are small, and because Srila Prabhupada explicitly told us to build rural communities, to us Varnashram is part of our religion (even if we haven't accomplished it). To Catholics it is virtually unknown and to move 1 billion people is very difficult.

[theist]

Thanks for the lucid explanation Gauracandra. 1900's huh? These were men gifted with remarkable foresight.

 

Swimming against Niagra...today more than ever. The soul travels on to it's new destination at death according to the tendancies it has acquired here on Earth. So to work in such a way that is in harmony with the Lord's plan for humanity can never be futile even though from the earthly angle the endeavor may seem fruitless.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

In truth I didn't actually realise this was an Iskcon site. Sorry. I also missed these postings because I didn't realise we'd gone onto two pages so I'll look at your responses more thoughtfully and get back to you. I think there is a lot of unpacking of ideas going on and it looks like a better discussion than i first anticipated.

 

Ok. I have a problem with Iskcon because I lived in an Iskcon temple for 5 years and it was a deeply unpleasant and thoroughly unspiritual experience. I ended up with an eating disorder and kleptomania for which I was kicked out. I had become so institutionalised that I would never imagine the prospect of leaving of my own accord and it took me a good few months to recover. I went to university because I could no longer claim benefits after 6 months and it seemed like the only way I could get hold of money and spend as minimal amount of time with other people as possible. I didn't understand how to get a job or to live properly in the outside world.

 

At university I studied social policy and all the while I kept thinking of Varnashrama Dharma. I have never stopped believing it was possible and deeply desired to understand how it could be possible. I learnt about the economic organisation of society and the effects that social policies have on people's ability to rationalise the circumstances in which they find themselves. This actively enabled me to understand everything that was wrong about life in an Iskcon temple and how the movement itself had fallen pray to the philosophy of the overarching economic order - Capitalism.

 

I began to understand that Capitalism was the Vaishya tendency driven out of control and thereby began to take socialist ideas of overthrowing capitalism on board having witnessed how a lack of critique of the capitalist order had driven Iskcon into disrepute. I don't believe as theist believes that these people are motivated by anything other than as desire to create a better world. I have spoken with them and worked with them and argued to the death with them and I find them to have many spiritual qualities. It frustrates me that it is often misguided beliefs about religion that prevent them from articulating the faith that is obviously there is their hearts.

 

They sacrifice their time and resources selflessly for the cause and in that I see the spark of devotion. The problem is that whenever they encounter someone of faith they are derided and told that their efforts are worthless. At one time socialists were arrogant I daresay and the stain of that reputation has been hard to shift. Today they are not. They have grown and they listen so long as you can debate with them on their terms. The people I have been discussing with now admit for the large part that their atheism is more of a faith than a politcal necessity and are more open to the notion of agnosticism.

 

I went to a meeting last night on Marxism and Religion and found out that a 30% of the people in the room had a faith of one description or another and this is the case today. More and more religious people are getting involved in socialism because they are appalled by the horrors that the IMF, WTO and World Bank are enforcing upon the majority of the world's population. Yes you and I have enough material comfort to contemplate metaphysical issues but that is not the concern of a vaishnava. OUr concern is that all human beings be liberated.

 

Having studied global politics it is quite clear to me that it is capitalism which is holding Africa to ransom and preventing the growth of its infrastructures, it is capitalism which is displacing the world's population and creating rightless persons around the world who are ripe for exploitation in the capitalist nerve centres of the world. Capitalism polarises, it chops and changes and creates instability. My position is simply this, if you don't see that the world is already in turmoil and at constant war it is because you live in the belly of the beast at not at the ruthless end of its nashing jaws. The world is already in complete flux and will die not live to see another 100 let alone 1000 years unless people of conscience make the decision to act now. This is faith, faith that something can be done. Faith in Prabhupada that his mission will succeed.

 

Muslims who believe in separatist measures will fail to bring about the peace required to practice their religion. Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. The workers are actually in control of production the world over. Capitalists must use force, the threat of expulsion or denial of the right to labour in order to exact all the excess profits. It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply until that resource runs out and capitalism can function no longer in its present form.

 

I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. I don't know his or Marx's quotes by heart. I know that Prabhupada was skeptical of the motives of socialists but socialism has grown and it is ready, I believe to address issues of God Consciousness. So long as we take the need to change the world and make it a peaceful place seriously they will and do take us seriously. For as long as we say that the world is in no need of change and those that suffer do so at their own hands, they will not. Hope thats not too self orientated but I felt my opinions required a little context. I have nothing but respect for Prabhupada and sincerely fear challenging his position on socialism. This is why I must get to the bottom of this by consulting Vaishnavas.

 

Quote:

 

I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough.

 

Reply:

 

We don't have to know Prabhupada by heart to quote him - did i miss anything - have you quoted him at all in these discussions? There are on line copies of his books for you to search and copy and paste from - to try to support your position.

 

My only major point was this:

 

"Prabhupada: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view.

Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the...

Prabhupada: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he’ll manage, he’ll manage. But if he’s not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn’t matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. [Room conversation with Lord Brockway, July 23, 1973]

 

So that is an interesting point:

 

...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate our leaders] and now with the WWW and their broad interest in things that are discussed around the world - they can become thus 'educated' as he notes."

 

That program is what is needed - all the leaders in the world better get trained up or - that 'magic prankster' [blessed be His Holy Name] is going to enter them into a 'contest' that they cannot win.

 

If we try to educate the mass of people to select the right leaders it would be futile - if we try to create some new political perspective - it would be futile - the only thing we can do is try to see that the leaders become educated - if that is done - the world can eventually come to the platform of understanding and cooperation - it sounds impossible this program - but - that is less impossible than revolutions and mass campaigns focused on the people.

 

Krishna says:

 

Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues. [bG 3.21]

 

Not that it's been any great success with this on the ground reflection of truth - 'Whatever actions are performed by common men, leaders follow in their footsteps. And whatever standards common men set by exemplary acts, all the world's leaders pursue.' The world's practical reality is that the leaders everywhere are just all too common - that seems to be true no matter the nation nor the politcal structures - so - that is the issue - what are the real qualifications of the string of leaders in our world?

 

God says [in every major scriptures] that the leaders are representative of Him - thus HE is indirectly responsible for what they do - on that consideration - it seems that leaders aught to be very mindful of what they do - as leaders.

 

So it's got to be - 'A Trancendental Education 101' of the Leaders - that is the only hope for the future!

 

You may say that it is impractical to think that the leaders are just going to hook up to the facts and the Teachings that they need to make this happen but - it can happen and this world is being directed by God and He has a plan...so let's see some efforts there as Prabhupada said:

 

...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate leaders]

 

You write:

 

Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are.

 

That program really is the end all program - best of luck to you dear soul in your quest for understanding - i just hope that you are going to become more and more attached to God centered understandings - rather than to the political - especially ones that speak of "overthrowing capitalism".

 

To paraphrase Srila Prabhupada:

 

The living entity cannot be desireless or senseless, but he does have to change the quality of the desires. A materially desireless person certainly knows that everything belongs to Krishna - he does not falsely claim proprietorship over anything. This transcendental knowledge is based on self-realization - namely, knowing perfectly well that every living entity is the eternal part and parcel of Krishna in spiritual identity and therefore the eternal position of the living entity is never on the level of God or greater than Him. This understanding of Krishna consciousness is the basic principle of real peace.

Those who know the rules and regulations of the scriptures, but, out of laziness or indolence, give up following these rules and regulations, are governed by the modes of material nature. According to their previous activities in the modes of goodness, passion or ignorance, they acquire a nature which is of a specific quality.

The association of the living entity with the different modes of nature has been going on perpetually since the living entity is in contact with material nature. Thus he acquires different types of mentality according to his association with the material modes.

But this nature can be changed if one associates with a bona fide spiritual master and abides by his rules and the scriptures. Gradually, one can change his position from ignorance to goodness, or from passion to goodness.

The conclusion is that blind faith in a particular mode of nature cannot help a person become elevated to the perfectional stage. One has to consider things carefully, with intelligence, in the association of a bona fide spiritual master. Thus one can change his position to a higher mode of nature. [bG 17.2, purport]

 

That is the starting point...to understand the nature or the focus of this noted education program - Prabhupada says that - 'One can remain in his own position. No one has to change his position, especially in this age of variegated difficulties' [sB 1.5.36, purport] - one only need accept the truths about Him and His position that are already there for all to see.

 

So whether our leaders are capitalists or communists or a democracy or a theocracy or a monarch or whatever - they all can keep their positions with - 'A Trancendental Education 101' - failing that - one can be sure that there ain't hope for anyone and - their precious positions shall indeed change - with time and circumstances - at the hands of God's material nature - tossing everything to and fro - so to speak.

 

I just have to add this point - you write: 'Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply' - again - you seem to be in denial about the [global] islamic revolution - that is why they are fighting - even the recent letter written by the president of Iran to the president of the U.S.A. outlines that 'widespread' desire to dominate the world. You think that they are fighting for freedom and full autonomy but that simply isn't so. Muslims are not to blame but the islamic revolution is being forwarded and i think that you may even be inadvertently helping it to do so.

 

 

 

[theist]

From the material side we get a material and limited view of communism which is woefully inadequate. I am thinking of the animals specifically. In materialistic communism the humans see no wrong in slaughtering billions of cows for their flesh and hides and torturing them beyond belief in the process. Animals are seen as mere objects of exploitation rather than as citizens.

 

Vaisnava communism on the other hand recognizes that the same spiritual spark that animates the human form animates the cow, bird and tree forms and further, that the same Supreme Lord is dwelling in all of them.Therefore they are all worthy and deserving of protection from the state and allowed their proper place within nature and society.

 

Vaisnava's in relation to material culture and societies are the true revolutionaries.

 

Viva la revolution comradesouls.

[Danielle Field]

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism. Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons.

 

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism.

 

Vedic culture also tolerates its share of meat eaters. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. The Sabaras in Jagannath Lila were pig herders and there's not much point in herding pigs unless you are going to eat them! I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health but as a response to an increase in the ability to express compassion. Food itself under capitalism has become nothing but filtth. Even fruits and vegetables have little in the way of taste due to the unnecessary oil pillaging that the ruling class is so fond of.

 

BDM, I am appreciative to hear what Prabhupada has said of socialism because I only read about it in dribs and drabs and he's usually referring to Stalinism which I reject as state capitalist. I speculate that if Prabhupada met with socialists today he may see a way to get through to them as their position has become more conducive to spiritual development and less inimical to the concept of God.

 

In reference to your comment regarding world leaders being in need of education my fear is that they are all so corrupt in capitulating with the dominant order and they are so embroiled in heinous acts that they are comparable to demons in their ability to switch off to the needs of the general populace. I see people who should and could be great leaders and most of them are socialists who are trapped within the working class and have no means of rising to positions of power. Did Rama educate Ravana with a book or an arrow?

 

Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. Any concept of power beyond that is unpleasant to them. To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim. My concern there is that you cannot rid the world of power as Krishna is the source of all power. What you can do, however, is demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishna's sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy. Nothing short of a revolution would be capable of doing this.

 

There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras.

 

In order to get the concept of revolution in perspective I think its important to look at how the capitalist class originally gained power. It was by beheading the entire ruling class of the time. This is what happens time and time again in Kali Yuga. I'm not suggesting that we go round beheading people. Rather that the workers collectively have the power to stop the system on which the capitalist class depends. They have the power to demand a different society and if they were aware of that then they could do it straight away through strike action and general collectivised activities that would bring the capitalist system to a standstill. Such action would have to be sustained in order to have an effect but if we had an organisation which would unify all religions, all atheists and all people generally that have a vested interest in bringing about an end to corruption such action would be swift and effective. The Globalised resistance campaign which began in Seattle in 1999 I believe was the beginning of this outpouring of emotion of the beleaguered working class. It was anti capitalist as opposed to socialist but nonetheless it marked for me the beginning of a new era. I hope for Vaishnavas to be a part of this revolution so that it doesn't go astray. It has the power to bring about an opening in which Prabhupada's movement can flourish.

 

Another thing I think it is important to remeber is that we have no precedent for bringing about this new coming age. How infrequently does Lord Chaitanya appear and what effect does He have on the unfolding of the age? I look at the situation with a practical eye and am concerned how to uproot the decadence of the previous age in order to implement the new. I see so many good people who but for the abuse of those in power could lead the world to a brighter dawn. I think karma is a subtle force and we all have to accept our karma and try and become free from it gradually through the practice of Krishna Consciousness. However, it is brute force that is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness.

 

Muslim fundamentalists are Morons. I do not support them. I am aware of their arguments and I believe that the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination. They are led by rich and greedy people who want a slice of the imperial pie. Without imperialism such imperialist pseudo religious ventures have no soil in which to sow their wicked schemes. If we offer regular Muslims a poitical alternative to fundamentalist Islam that will protect their rights to practice their faith and protect them from the threat of violence brought about by prejudice they will not be tempted by its offerings. They will recognise that the leaders of such movements are as inimical to their welfare as the western capitalists that bomb their homes.

 

Thanks again. Take care. D

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism. Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse the trust animals place in human beings. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons.

 

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, but there would be an end to the ultra waste and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve being treated simply as commodities. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism. Vedic culture also tolerates it share of meat eaters who are relegated to outcaste status. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health as well as an increase in the ability to express compassion.

 

BDM, very sweet response by the way. I am appreciative to hear what Prabhupada has said of socialism because I only read about it in dribs and drabs and he's usually referring to Stalinism which I reject as state capitalist. I speculate that if Prabhupada met with socialists today he may see a way to get through to them as their position has become more conducive to spiritual development and less inimical to the concept of God.

 

In reference to your comment regarding world leaders being in need of education my fear is that they are all so corrupt in capitulating with the dominant order and they are so embroiled in heinous acts that they are comparable to demons in their ability to switch off to the needs of the general populace. i see people who should and could be great leaders and most of them are socialists who are trapped within the working class and have no means of rising to positions of power.

 

Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim. My concern there is that you cannot rid the world of power as Krishna is the source of all power. What you can do, however, is get demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishnas sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy.

 

There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras.

 

Another thing I think it is important to remeber is that we have no precedent for bringing about this new coming age. How infrequently does Lord Chaitanya appear and what effect does He have on the unfolding of the age. I look at the situation with a practical eye and am concerned how to uproot the decadence of the previous age in order to implement the new. I see so many good people who but for the abuse of those in power could lead the world to a brighter dawn. I think karma is a subtle force and we all have to accept our karma and try and work through it. Brute force is what is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness.

 

Muslim fundamentalists are Morons. I do not support them. I am aware of their arguments and I believe that the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination. They are lead by rich and greedy people who want a slice of the imperial pie. Without imperialism such imperialist pseudo religious ventures have no soil in which to sow their wicked schemes.

 

Thanks again. Take care. D

 

Hari Bolo!

 

Well now you're contradicting your other postings - i'll reply later today...

[Danielle Field]

Is there an incy, wincy chance that I might not be contradicting myself and that, as has previously occurred, you might have thought I meant something I didn't? Just a thought . . . I hope its not the reference to Muslim fundamentalists being morons. I always thought that. They are a very tiny minority of the Muslim population. Most current Muslim resistance is against imperialism and the attacks imperialism is making on the rights of all Muslims wherever they are in the world. I show solidarity to Muslims who wish to overthrow capitalism. If you think that most Muslims are fundamentalists and don't understand the damage that that conception of Islam has on peace loving Muslims then you need to deepen your analysis so that it doesn't exacerbate Islamaphobia.

 

One of my friends recently got accused of being an Islamic fundamentalist and he's not, he's a Musllim socialist. Today it doesn't matter though. Even if you're a Brazilian travelling on the tube in London and your skin looks dark enough for you to be considered a Muslim you will get treated as if you are a terrorist. Jean Charles de Menezes was a Brazillian Christian visiting London and wash shot dead on the tube by the police for 'looking suspicious'. That kind of scaremongering about Muslim's leads to such misconceptions and in such fearful times mud sticks.

 

I understand why Muslim's get swayed by the arguments of fundamentalists when they see little in the way of solidarity coming from the rest of the world. That is what we have to change to disempower the fundamentalists. Fight for a world of unity not one that perpetuates divisions in order to rule.

 

I suspect that you spend less time in the company of Muslims than I do and it is for that reason you do not understand the subtleties of my argument. I encounter a lot of people like yourself who are more willing to believe what is written about Muslims in the media than to actually associate with them and find out what they are really like on their own terms. The problem with Muslim fundamentalists is the same problem as with Hindu fundamentalists. They think they have a direct line to God and don't have to refer to the will of the greater populace in their choice of methods of controlling society. Tony Blair is only answerable to God now by his own admission. He is a fundamentalist, a capitalist fundamentalist, just like George Bush. I fear them more because they have greater access to arms and a larger mandate to use them. They cause Islamic fundamentalism by targetting and scapegoating muslims in their bid to conceal the war they are waging on the international working class. I hold them and their administrations directly accountable for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

 

My argument is nothing if not consistent. If you've failed to recognise the constancy of my argument be open to the possibility that it is because you have not fully absorbed or understood my position. It shows a succint lack of humility for you to begin this with the assertion that I am contradicting myself. I have not accused you of any such thing. I have suspected it but have been open to the fact that there may be some means of correcting that position should I be in the wrong. Discussion and enquiry require humility. To assume someone is wrong just because you don't understand them is indicative of pride and makes disussion fraught.

[theist]

 

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism.

The best term out there is specism I think, popularized by Peter Singer.

 

 

 

Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons.

Why such caution? Is the pain and suffering experienced by the soul in an animal form so much less significant than that suffered by a soul in a human form? How about the suffering experienced then of a human to a higher life form from another planet? How would we feel as humans towards those beings who saw their own suffering as more important than our own based on the higher form they are presently inhabitating?

 

This says to me that these socialists are still speciests. But I applaude their willingness to grow in this area.

 

 

 

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism.

Again it's good the socialists are learning and growing. Although I find their need to blame the Capitalist for every ill under the sun to be like the the Muslims at Haj when they have a certain stone the Satan day, or a Christian who believes everytime he gets an erection at the the vision of an alluring woman to be under the attack of the Devil. This type of thinking may be a little helpful at some stage but to progress we need to take more personal responsibility for what we experience as good and evil in our lives and give up our need for external Boogymen.

 

 

 

....Even fruits and vegetables have little in the way of taste due to the unnecessary oil pillaging that the ruling class is so fond of.

There are some who recognize the problem but instead of spending time railing endlessly about the evil ruling class take personal responibility for what they put in the bodies by buying locally grown produce and learning and supporting efforts to return to a sense of universal connectiveness thru the act of growing our own food in our own space as best we can.

 

Even a poor "powerless" resident born and raised in the heart of Brooklyn does more than these pseudo revolutionaries just by learning how to grow a jar of alfalfa sprouts in a small attempt to move towards self-suffiency.

 

If we really want to progress in our lives we have to move beyond mastery of a certain social/economic theory and angry rhetoric against the Boogyman.

 

Comradesoul

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Is there an incy, wincy chance that I might not be contradicting myself and that, as has previously occurred, you might have thought I meant something I didn't? Just a thought . . . I hope its not the reference to Muslim fundamentalists being morons. I always thought that. They are a very tiny minority of the Muslim population. Most current Muslim resistance is against imperialism and the attacks imperialism is making on the rights of all Muslims wherever they are in the world. I show solidarity to Muslims who wish to overthrow capitalism. If you think that most Muslims are fundamentalists and don't understand the damage that that conception of Islam has on peace loving Muslims then you need to deepen your analysis so that it doesn't exacerbate Islamaphobia.

 

[...]

 

I understand why Muslim's get swayed by the arguments of fundamentalists when they see little in the way of solidarity coming from the rest of the world.

 

[...]

 

The problem with Muslim fundamentalists is the same problem as with Hindu fundamentalists. They think they have a direct line to God and don't have to refer to the will of the greater populace in their choice of methods of controlling society. Tony Blair is only answerable to God now by his own admission. He is a fundamentalist, a capitalist fundamentalist, just like George Bush. I fear them more because they have greater access to arms and a larger mandate to use them. They cause Islamic fundamentalism by targetting and scapegoating muslims in their bid to conceal the war they are waging on the international working class. I hold them and their administrations directly accountable for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

 

My argument is nothing if not consistent. If you've failed to recognise the constancy of my argument be open to the possibility that it is because you have not fully absorbed or understood my position. It shows a succint lack of humility for you to begin this with the assertion that I am contradicting myself. I have not accused you of any such thing. I have suspected it but have been open to the fact that there may be some means of correcting that position should I be in the wrong. Discussion and enquiry require humility. To assume someone is wrong just because you don't understand them is indicative of pride and makes disussion fraught.

 

You've wrote:

 

Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are.

 

...[muslims] have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies...How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..."

 

Only extremist islamist muslims are trying to do this and - Muslims are not being targeted as you say.

 

I think your position may be thinking that since socialists wish to upset the capitalist apple cart too - it is somehow fortuitous to your cause that these [or any] extremists are also fighting the 'capitalists'.

 

Your hope is that the varied results of this 'resistance' may become an opportunity to sway the variety of populations to socialism or in the worst-case [for the world] scenario - if the attacks of extremists on 'capitalists' induced a widescale anarchy it could be an opportunity to induce a socialist revolution - however - the real result would be a nasty war between the islamists and the socialists.

 

You boldly say that Bush and Blair [and the rich ruling class] are responsible for the incitement of global terror and ithe violences are only reactionary - to them - this 'Islamic revolutionary activity' - that is what i clearly read.

 

This must be the case in your writing - ...'They cause Islamic fundamentalism by targetting and scapegoating muslims in their bid to conceal the war they are waging on the international working class'...

 

It is odd wording - taken with - 'How tolerant do we expect people [terrorists ] to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them' - and that point taken with - 'Capitalists must use force....It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply' - none of that accounts for the known facts about the islamists radical revolution programme.

 

The global islamic revolution hasn't been born out of any fighting of 'capitalism' [or even so-called western domination] - infact - they are trying to widely impose their radical revolution for decades now - by propaganda by force and - by terror.

 

The so-called fight against so-called western domination is a sham they use to con some 'others' into following them and - to divert attention when their islamist programme begins to sound too radical.

 

You seem to not think of that 'component' in writing about this 'scenario':

 

Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism

 

You seem to be saying that Islam in particular and muslims in general - are at odds with western capitalist society but - that isn't true and - you don't see that you advance islamaphobia on that basis - by trying to confuse the lines of identity among the players of consequence.

 

Please don't try to make people think that Islam is united in some 'resistance' against capitalism - where it's only some radical so-called muslims who are so disposed.

 

So to say:

 

the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination - that is just plain wrong.

They are attracted to "world domination" - for other reasons - as noted.

Quote:

The problem with Muslim fundamentalists is the same problem as with Hindu fundamentalists

 

Reply:

 

Not even close. One cannot compare any other 'fundamentalists' with islamists - as they are the only ones that kill for their programme - not even evangelicals do that! But in this i think you're calling me a hindu fundie?

 

It was on that basis that I think you've been contradictory...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Most of the socialists I associate with have begun to come to the conclusion that cruelty to animals is an extension of the prinicple of racism. Whilst they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare. Lots of socialists are vegetarian for compassionate reasons.

 

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism.

 

Vedic culture also tolerates its share of meat eaters. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. The Sabaras in Jagannath Lila were pig herders and there's not much point in herding pigs unless you are going to eat them! I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health but as a response to an increase in the ability to express compassion. Food itself under capitalism has become nothing but filtth. Even fruits and vegetables have little in the way of taste due to the unnecessary oil pillaging that the ruling class is so fond of.

 

BDM, I am appreciative to hear what Prabhupada has said of socialism because I only read about it in dribs and drabs and he's usually referring to Stalinism which I reject as state capitalist. I speculate that if Prabhupada met with socialists today he may see a way to get through to them as their position has become more conducive to spiritual development and less inimical to the concept of God.

 

In reference to your comment regarding world leaders being in need of education my fear is that they are all so corrupt in capitulating with the dominant order and they are so embroiled in heinous acts that they are comparable to demons in their ability to switch off to the needs of the general populace. I see people who should and could be great leaders and most of them are socialists who are trapped within the working class and have no means of rising to positions of power. Did Rama educate Ravana with a book or an arrow?

 

Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. Any concept of power beyond that is unpleasant to them. To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim. My concern there is that you cannot rid the world of power as Krishna is the source of all power. What you can do, however, is demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishna's sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy. Nothing short of a revolution would be capable of doing this.

 

There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras.

 

In order to get the concept of revolution in perspective I think its important to look at how the capitalist class originally gained power. It was by beheading the entire ruling class of the time. This is what happens time and time again in Kali Yuga. I'm not suggesting that we go round beheading people. Rather that the workers collectively have the power to stop the system on which the capitalist class depends. They have the power to demand a different society and if they were aware of that then they could do it straight away through strike action and general collectivised activities that would bring the capitalist system to a standstill. Such action would have to be sustained in order to have an effect but if we had an organisation which would unify all religions, all atheists and all people generally that have a vested interest in bringing about an end to corruption such action would be swift and effective. The Globalised resistance campaign which began in Seattle in 1999 I believe was the beginning of this outpouring of emotion of the beleaguered working class. It was anti capitalist as opposed to socialist but nonetheless it marked for me the beginning of a new era. I hope for Vaishnavas to be a part of this revolution so that it doesn't go astray. It has the power to bring about an opening in which Prabhupada's movement can flourish.

 

Another thing I think it is important to remeber is that we have no precedent for bringing about this new coming age. How infrequently does Lord Chaitanya appear and what effect does He have on the unfolding of the age? I look at the situation with a practical eye and am concerned how to uproot the decadence of the previous age in order to implement the new. I see so many good people who but for the abuse of those in power could lead the world to a brighter dawn. I think karma is a subtle force and we all have to accept our karma and try and become free from it gradually through the practice of Krishna Consciousness. However, it is brute force that is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness.

 

Muslim fundamentalists are Morons. I do not support them. I am aware of their arguments and I believe that the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination. They are led by rich and greedy people who want a slice of the imperial pie. Without imperialism such imperialist pseudo religious ventures have no soil in which to sow their wicked schemes. If we offer regular Muslims a poitical alternative to fundamentalist Islam that will protect their rights to practice their faith and protect them from the threat of violence brought about by prejudice they will not be tempted by its offerings. They will recognise that the leaders of such movements are as inimical to their welfare as the western capitalists that bomb their homes.

 

Thanks again. Take care. D

 

...they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare...

 

Of course - and it seems that you might agree with them?

 

The violence done to an animal while different in the eyes of the state is not very much different in a practical sense.

 

People who need to externalize their anger through causing pain and injury to others are demons [they may be sick but i don't care about that when they hurt others] - now of course those 'sick people' that abuse an individual that cannot resist or otherwise end the abuse are most abominable - without doubt the abuse of an animal is like the abuse of a child.

 

Like a child an animal cannot stop the abuse and like a child the animal didn't do anything to 'deserve' or cause the abuse.

 

While the abuse of a human is a greater crime - the abuse of animals is a crime as well and - it may be that those who abuse animals also abuse humans - take the example of the people who may have a dog or a cat - when they become angry - they take it out on their compainion creatures and such dogs and cats are at their mercy [or lack of] unless providence sets them free - just look to all the homeless dogs and cats that run around - what is their story of abuse - in their forgotten lives?

 

Without a doubt - there is a serious problem with violence in our world and - it has its basis - humans non-regard for non-humans.

 

So despite that - we have to know that not all meat eaters are violent demons who abuse animals and - other humans!

 

In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism.

 

Animal rights 'extremists' are as lost as any other extremist.

 

Capitalism is NOT the root cause of animal abuse - that there are animals abused EVERYWHERE is clear proof of that. Just see in China the hopeless lot of the billions of animals!

 

Vedic culture also tolerates its share of meat eaters. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. The Sabaras in Jagannath Lila were pig herders and there's not much point in herding pigs unless you are going to eat them!

 

Yes it does to some measure - however - it is restricted to the lower class - no leaders or teachers would live on flesh.

 

I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health but as a response to an increase in the ability to express compassion.

Again - there are plenty of places on earth where there is no capitalists and there is yet a great deal of flesh eating.

 

Did Rama educate Ravana with a book or an arrow?

 

We're not Rama and - we're not fighting Ravana.

 

Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. Any concept of power beyond that is unpleasant to them...To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim

 

The truth is we call that [power is simply the collective power of the people] democracy don't we? Certainly - we cannot reject the notion of power structures and leaders because even in the socialist structure the mass of people shall be represented by the few.

 

This is where we get to the point that Prabhupada makes - that even if there were good leaders to choose it is impractical to educate the masses to select the right persons - so - the idea then is that an effort must be made to educate leaders themselves.

 

Without being properly situated [educated] no leader can enjoy the honor and fame that they should as leaders.

 

The truth is we could choose a socialist system as you espouce - however - that isn't going to change the practical reality that the socialist leaders shall be as prone to mistakes - the same mistakes - as the leaders they displace.

 

What you can do, however, is demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishna's sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy. Nothing short of a revolution would be capable of doing this.

 

There is that concept of revolution again. Have you heard that not even a blade of grass moves without the sanction of Krishna? So we cannot say that the west is under the control of usurpers.

 

Even in some existing socialist governances there is a practice of placing unqualified persons in positions of public trust and - history has many examples of this.

 

Of course the kind of socialist system you espouce wouldn't do that i'm sure - naturally that 'system' is a utopian view not a practical one.

 

There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras.

 

Yes there are such narrations of wars - yet - revolutions are not preached in the pages of Bhagavatam - in fact - revolution would be condsidered 'irregular fighting' [when members of an irregular armed force fights by sabotage and harassment] - in this connection - Krishna [in BG 2.32] says that the doors to heaven are open to leaders - 'to whom fighting opportunities come unsought' - so revolutions are not something that is vedic in the sense of fighting with rules and regulations.

 

The vedas are clear regarding when and with whom one can fight with as well as well as the circumstances prompting such fighting.

 

The fact is - when people are mostly under the modes of passion and ignorance any 'revolution' - even if it starts as mere striking and boycotting - usually ends up in discord and fighting - if there is such a revolution of 'the masses' - it would become anarchy quite quickly.

 

In kali yuga 99.99% of the populations - what to speak of rulers - are for a practical sense 'sudras' - socialism isn't going to change that - nor are revolutions are not going to change that.

 

However - properly educated leaders - can change that - as reflected in the way that they govern their peoples - but - if the leaders don't take any personal responsibility for the direcection their people are headed [what to speak of themselves] - then it's less than sudra mentality expanding everywhere - especially with the generations after the 1980's and on...

 

it is brute force that is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness

 

I think you should try to focus less on a revolution [and more on the revelation ] and more on becoming more educated by Prabhupada - how much time do you give to reading his books each week? Do you chant the holy name of the Lord at all on a regular basis?

 

These are things you should be doing right now - just try to understand Prabhupada's position first - then - you may try to relate it to 'other' perspectives - but - without a firm grounding in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada your tendency shall be that you will have incomplete faith in God and - in your political understandings.

 

[Danielle Field]

I can't do this on the internet and this is just Maya. its not advancing either your position or mine. Your interpretation of my words is coming from an incomplete understanding of my position and a parody of what socialism is and is capable of. I give up. You have won, without convincing me of a single thing. I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice. It would help if you were trying to understand and not to simply undermine my position. I may be wrong, but I'm only going to find that out from someone who is willing to see exactly what I am trying to say. Someone who is willing to follow what logic there is in my argument and not someone who is looking for potholes and where they don't exist, forging them. For all those people who were supportive of my argument and maybe know little of socialism please look into it or at least be willing to understand where socialists are coming from. Take care. Haribol.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I can't do this on the internet and this is just Maya. its not advancing either your position or mine. Your interpretation of my words is coming from an incomplete understanding of my position and a parody of what socialism is and is capable of. I give up. You have won, without convincing me of a single thing. I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice. It would help if you were trying to understand and not to simply undermine my position. I may be wrong, but I'm only going to find that out from someone who is willing to see exactly what I am trying to say. Someone who is willing to follow what logic there is in my argument and not someone who is looking for potholes and where they don't exist, forging them. For all those people who were supportive of my argument and maybe know little of socialism please look into it or at least be willing to understand where socialists are coming from. Take care. Haribol.

 

When did i say your position had no value? You didn't pick up my point [on Prabhupada's comments to Lord Brockway] and that is that you may have a point in some areas and that your best efforts would be placed in trying to reach socialist leaders [or ones up and coming] with the message that they need - Prabhupada's teachings presented to them in such a manner that they would have the opportunity to become 'educated'.

 

I do remain quite concerned about your views about revolutions [of any kind] and your seeming acceptance of those 'factions' that are fighting the western 'capitalist' nations - be they terrorists or 'whatever'. I think you might do well to see any revolution less as a solution maker and more of a problem maker - especially in kali yuga times like these.

 

Do know that i see that you are sincere enough to place the efforts that you do into your postings and discussions with others and - I do respect that.

 

Hari Bolo!

[Danielle Field]

I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day. No reason to take it out on you. I think I'm going to have to wait until I've got proper access to the internet to get involved in discussing this more deeply though. My economic situation is too precarious to risk getting caught like this. Thanks for your time. I will think about what you've said. Hari bol! (I know thats the solution really)

[theist]

 

...I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice.

 

Oh really?

[theist]

If one is interested in understanding communism from the Vaisnava viewpoint they only need to study Vaisnavism to find it. There is no need to waste valuable time learning socialism from atheists. We are not interested in the atheists opinon on how a human life should be lived rather individully or collectively.

 

A Vaisnava will not take more than he needs to keep his body and soul together in a proper way. This is an automatic rejection of Capitalism which needs people to be ever purchasing more and more needless things. The Vaisnava has no need for needless things.

 

A Vaisnava does not reject work but rather works in the spirit of devotion which includes working for the good of all living entities to benefit them spiritually and materially. This is the perfection of the idea of each taking from the pot what he needs while contributing according to his means.

 

The false communist thinks that it is enough to work in devotion for the collective represented as the state.

 

The Vaisnava sees the "collective" as the totality of all living beings as spiritual sparks of Krsna irregardless of material form and work in devotion to Krsna must also include that His parts and parcels i.e. the collective.

 

Vaisnava communism is complete whereas Marx and co.have tried to X God out. Therefore they are simply a disturbance to the human society in so much as they are opposed to the goal of human life which is developing love for God.

 

Hare Krsna,

comradesoul

[Danielle Field]

I'm sorry Theist. I didn't mean to disrespect you. I know you've responded a couple of times. I feel like I have to go over everything I've said already to respond to you BDM. Yes I do chant everyday. I used to chant so much that I chanted in my sleep. I have damaged my voice from being in Iskcon because I had to chant even when my vocal chords were damaged. Karma or abuse or should I not distinguish? I chant in my head when I can. The only books I read are Prabhupada's. I understand where Marxists are coming from without reading their books which often confuses and disturbs them. I have read Rosa Luxembourgs the Mass Strike and some of Marx's works on religion. I listen to people and this is how I learn.

 

I'm really finding talking on this website much more difficult than I anticipated. Its not the best method of communication. I just want to see members of Iskcon and Vaishnavas generally inspired to change the world the way that socialists are. They have changed so much and you will never know. This really will be my last post until I get access to the Internet outside work but I just wanted to apologise for any offence. I don't think I'm ready for this yet, but I will be in time.

[theist]

No offense Danielle. I was mostly thinking of Gaurachandra's bringing up Distributism which I had hoped would develop more than it did.

 

One problem with message boards is that an interesting topic like this one gets a lot of thoughtful replies making it impossible for the thread starter to answer them all adequately. I really do understand that. It is good that you gravitated to BDM to converse with so you could develop that conversation. I post as much to the subject as anything else. This one subject is one is I use on another forum (where I sign as comradesoul) as a different angle from which to present theism. I find that modern Christians have somehow been polluted into thinking Capitalism and Christianity are cut from the same cloth. This thinking is deadly to the spiritualist who should be trimming his desires down to one, serving the Lord, and not chasing after the shiny trinkets displayed by the Capitalist exploiters.

 

I also like to to challenge the atheistic Communists and show them that communism is inherent in the tenets of religion and is actually only perfected in spiritual realization. They act like Marx invented the wheel or something. Their brand of communism is incredibly inadequate when matched up to spiritual communism.

 

Now don't risk responding. You need to keep that job to get some $ to buy your own box. That way you can rejoin us in peace and carry this conversation on.

 

pranams sistersoul.

[Kulapavana]

 

I just want to see members of Iskcon and Vaishnavas generally inspired to change the world the way that socialists are. They have changed so much and you will never know.

 

Prabhupada started the Hare Krsna movement with a very broad vision for not only religious but a social and cultural change as well. Over the years after his disappearance that broad vision gradually deteriorated in our mvement and is now practicaly lost. On the surface we are now merely a religious group, one of many just struggling for a basic survival. Our movement lacks the vision on the ladership level and because of it, it lacks unity.

 

Yet, I firmly believe that Krsna has a great plan for us, and that from the next generation of devotees real leaders with vision will emerge in our movement, making it an important instrument of change in the world.

[Danielle Field]

I have experienced such a great advancement in my spiritual development in the association of socialists than I ever did in the association of "devotees". As such I am completely attached to their association because in spite of their desire for me to give up my sentimental attachment to religiosity it is their company that actually inspires me to chant and read Prabhupada's books.

 

They are committed to overthrowing the spell that Maya has cast over the material world in the form of Capitalism. Capitalism demands the subversion of all truth in order to maintain this perverse form of economic organisation. Capitalism makes waste out of progress, starves people because of overproduction. It melts all that is real into thin air and subverts every religious priniciple, commodifying all religious organisations and making them nothing but corporate shells that serve the wretched.

 

I want to bring about a social revolution that will unleash the potential of human kind to engage in its natural desire to serve God. I believe the Golden age is already upon us and that it is only capitalism which holds us back. Capitalism rid the world of all the hitherto superstitions and traditions. Without those fetters human kind could begin a new taking only what was necessary for survival and developing social relations according to the souls need for decent and nourishing association and the development of consciousness. But we have to get rid of the demons subverting all that is good in human culture.

 

I believe Prabhupada's mission has worked but that there needs to be a revolution within Iskcon to get rid of those who are currently holding the wave of devotional culture back with their contaminated capitalist notions of controlling the individual rather than allowing their natural devotion a platform for expression. I have seen from experience that the socialist principles of the social organisation of labour are actually based around devotional principles of good association that Prabhupada enunciated in the nectar of instruction. Socialists associate like this organically without the threat of hell hanging over them. The world is ready. It is time for devotees to take their service seriously and make the world a new, to take advantage of the forces of revolution to sweep away the evil that is rotting away the heart of the world.

 

Socialists are only skeptical of religious belief because they analyse from a material perspective that religions only serve to control people and therefore can be of no use to developing a better world. I see my duty to Prabhupada to infiltrate their ranks and show them a conception of God that goes deeper than this, to help them to understand that they can conceptualise their own worship beyond the strictures of capitalistic forms of religious subversion. I do not take offence at their atheism and am also aware that many these days are more open to spiritual beliefs.

 

The other reason they often don't take God consciousness seriously is because they meet people with such horrific politics claiming that they are acting on Gods order and so they reject God out of hand believing politics is more important for the expression of compassion. It is our duty to seek out those people most attracted to the truth and to enable them to understand that God belongs to them and not to the Biggots and th zealots who claim to speak in his name.

[Danielle Field]

Socialism is not the path to spiritual liberation but in a world where devotee association has become a place of prolific bullying, woman hating, racism and homophobia I find the association of those who are less interested in blaming disempowered and minority groups for all the things that are wrong in the world inspiring and progressive. They are much more reflexive in their outlook and are keen to understand the truth at the heart of matters rather than twisting the truth to fit their limited vision of the world.

 

I have experienced joining an Iskcon community and this hardened my heart making the compassion which had drawn me to the light of Krishna consciousness become an unattractive sentimentality that was to be beaten out of me as a spiritual imperative. Socialists actually encourage the softening of your heart so that you can fight the good fight with humility and not rage.

 

I am not in this advocating that all socialists are humble and submissive. Many are the exact opposite. I am lucky. I am amongst socialists who have taken their philosophy seriously and have not ended at the point where they are satisfied to be part of a collective, resting on the laurels of their previous studies, believing they know it all. To be a socialist is to open up a consistant path of inquiry, and that path only concludes when the contradictions between capital and labour have been resolved. I believe from my experience that that path of enquiry will lead them, in time, to question the absolute. The softening of the heart that involves fighting for socialism will enable them to follow that path once they reach the crossroads.

 

I was at a socialist meeting last night and there were many Muslims in attendance approx 300:100 white people. There were black people there also and a minority of Jewish people who were there to establish that Zionism is the antithesis of all that is good and holy and that no self respecting Jew would to such a deadly philosophy, to offer solidarity to Muslim's around the world being persecuted as they had been during the holocaust. Atheists and theists alike were agreed on all things that the world can only be rid of the scourge of evil when the system of Capitalist production has been overthrown.

 

Capitalism is a system based on gambling and it capitalises upon the worst and weakest characteristics in human nature. Socialism is a means of socially organising the world so that the purification of human culture becomes the raison d'etre of economic organisation. This is what Prabhupada advocates in the introduction to the Srimad Bhagavatam. He states that the Bhagavatam is the light of the world, and it is. See how it is lighting the world bringing together people of all faiths and cultures, atheists and theists alike. See how the Bhagavatam is dramatically overturning the structures of evil that have held human consciousness captive for so many ages. See how it is effecting those who have not even touched its beautiful pages to rise up in solidarity against the forces of evil and inspiring the human race to build the world anew.

 

Socialism is not the answer, it is a symptom of this cultural uprising. Socialists are not pure devotees, they are compassionate human beings, whose devotion to the development of a culture in which human consciousness can expand and errupt should not be overlooked or misunderstood. I hope someone will read this and understand the importance of this message. I am not capable of conveying its importance as a solitary actor.

 

Haribol.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Socialism is not the answer

 

That is the only part of your posting which rings true....