Socialism and Vaishnavism

[Danielle Field]

I don't know what it is going to take to clean up the planet and make it fit to be offerable to Krishna but I do feel that it is possible because Prabhupada said it was. When I stop believing that then I stop believing in Prabhupada and I don't want that because I need to believe in Prabhupada.

 

I am speaking from personal experience mostly and trying to get some input as to how to understand my current position. Also I wanted to spark off a discussion between advanced devotees regarding this issue and not necessarily get everyone to change to my way of thinking. I have been wrong about many, many things in the past and I'm not so confident as to demand everyone accept my thoughts without analysis, discussion and feedback.

 

Living in an ISKCON temple was beneficial for me in that I leant about the practice of Krishna consciousness and I still know lots of bhajans and have a strong attachment for chanting the holy name. I am certainly grateful for that. The temple was very damaging for me in many ways, however, because what drove me to ashram life was an utter conviction in the inherent good in all living beings which I found mirrored in Prabhupadas writing. This ethic was utterly absent in the temple.

 

I am aware that most people are selfish but I know from my own experience that I was a very individualistic person before I joined the temple. It was the study of sociology at college that drove me to spiritual thinking and commitment. it opened me up to the belief that people could change, the world could change and that social systems prescribe perameters on people's awareness that prevent them from understanding themselves at a fundamental level.

 

When I left the temple I studied social policy and this was such a welcome relief because it helped me understand why living in an ISKCON temple had hardened my heart as opposed to softening it. I have spoken at length about this a few pages ago so it feels incredibly self indulgent to go over it here again. I'm sorry you think i speak in slogans. I don't, I speak from the heart. I don't quote Marx or even Prabhupada for that matter because I am a very passionate person and things flow out of my head with very little in the way of control or premeditation. Anyhoo, the boss is coming. Got to go.

 

Just squeezing in another bit. Capitalism as I've said previously is an anachronism. It is not natural or normal. Whatever way we overthrow it I don't mind. I am a socialist but there are many people out there who are anti capitalist without being socialist and I'm fine with that. In the Srimad Bhagavatam we learn about how Ksatriyas have historically overthrown the brahmin class and the kind of chaos this reaked on society. What I am proposing here is that we have misunderstood what capitalism is. In the middle ages we were ruled by kings but is was the merchants who overthrew the kings and created a world according to vaishya principles. When I was a part of ISKCON we were told that all the trappings of varnashrama dhama were there except for the brahmin class but I don't think we do have kings now. Our royal family in Britain are a tourist attraction and as such they have affiliated themselves with the vaishya class. I hope you can have a think about this and get back to me about this thought specifically.

[celina12]

 

I don't know what it is going to take to clean up the planet and make it fit to be offerable to Krishna but I do feel that it is possible because Prabhupada said it was. When I stop believing that then I stop believing in Prabhupada and I don't want that because I need to believe in Prabhupada.

 

I still haven't heard back from you in a while!

[Danielle Field]

Hello, sorry. How are you?

[kbdas]

please do not be offended by my remarks. i am trying to answer according to the teachings of Srila BR Shridhar Maharaja and Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj Prabhupad.

hmm, i see this interesting thread is still going on.

Yes, no revolutionary sets out to be a muderous swine, yet it happens every time.

"Our hearts were so pure, we really wanted to do good for the people. If anyone had told us, on that first day of power that in 12 years we should come to this we would have considered them insane"-Dr. Frick, NSDAP Minister of Justice, Nuremberg trials, 1946.

I have no problem with socialism lite--say as practiced in Scandinavia. but when you start talking about Marx, Engels etc you are advocating the VIOLENT overthrow of society. Mao says there cannot even BE the potential for communism without violence. Are you so POSITIVE your way is the right way and don't mind people getting hurt/killed to prove that you can turn this world into a paradise. Don't be like those Che Guevara tools who say they are against capital punishment or censorship and fail to admit that their hero #1 executed thousands, made homosexuality illegal, banned a free press etc etc.

Birth. old age, disease and death are the truths of the material world, and this applies to planets as well as individuals. Srila Bhaktsiddhanta Saraswati said overcoming THAT is so important that everything else can wait-"let the world burn". The world is full of people screaming "I. Me, Mine!!!!" that's how we got here in the first place. Do you really think it is possible to get them all to work towards some idealistic, communal society without force? Srila Prabhupad said that this world is basically a lunatic asylum run by Srimati Durgadevi. As far as a fit planet to offer, unless we live like folks did 5,000 years ago, or all take up the search for the Absolue Truth ( whose attraction is by "love and beauty, not coercion and force"-B.R. Shridar ) I can't see it hapenning. Have you seen the pollution problems in socialist countries-it is horrendous.. The forestry programs in capitalist countries are better. The best conservation, safe, clean work environment laws, anti-animal vivisection laws were actually passed by the friggin NAZIS!! Anyway, I am sorry to go on and on. but the arguments of the communists are so annoying, they go like this:

1. USSR, China, Cambodia and Cuba are( were) horrible, coercive dictatorships. Argument: they are not really communist.

2. What about all the executions? They deserved it. ( who decides that?)And the capitalists are just as bad nyaah nyahh!!!!

3. people in this world are inherently selfish and clannish. Argument--no they are not!!!!!! Once their brilliant intellects ( the same folks who can't wait to vote for American Idol or buy a Hummer ) grasp the truth of Marxism they will WORK FOR FREE!!!! And love it! Just ask the Cubans who can't wait for Fidel to die how they like working for free on their vacations. But their literacy rate is almost as high as costa ( capitalist ) rica's.

Lenin predicted the end of nationalism in the USSR within 10 years. Now look at all the breakaway republics. It's human nature. As Eric Burden and the Animals said "We gotta get out of this place!" or Tim Leary "when will we quit getting bogged down in mammalian politics?"

I am sorry about being such a windbag-but no philosophy has brought as much grief to mankind as Marxism. Anyway, I respect your desire to make this world a better place, and the planet is certainly being run by a##holes now, but Marx isn't going to save it, Marxism is a proven 19th century failure that belongs in the trash heap of history. Please read "Against All Hope", "Gulag Archipelago 1-3" or "Black Book of Communism" if you do not want to accept the word of our archaryas.

[Danielle Field]

OK. I'll try and respond to that in due course. I have done already if you want to just look at the rest of the conversation that has gone before though. Maybe I'll just cut and paste it sometime. I've really lost my drive to get into this though. I came here for answers and I'm just not getting any so I'm not really so inclined to keep it up I'm afraid. I haven't got enough time to keep going over the same territory and not get any answers. Believe what you want about socialism. I really don't care. I'm not a zealot, I'm just a lost soul looking for answers and I've got the "my guru was just a fat bloke in a dress" blues. Best wishes xxx

[CCC]

Krsna is the Perfect Communist. all in common. all centered in HIM all are his possessions and He is the Suprem Controller.

 

In vayu purana it said that varnasramadharma was created by Lord Brahma after satyayuga because people started to fight each other for material possessions. (In satya yuga there is no "this is mine, or I am this body" all is in common, all are realized soulsand all is shared in common, there is no selfishness)

 

Marx said: Religion is the opium of the people.

Krsna said: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.

[CCC]

Capitalisms is a demoniac system of life, not divine, there is no such thing in the scriptures.

 

Spiritual Communism is the way all centered in God

[CCC]

Today the world is ruled by bogus kshatryas (materialistics leaders and armies) bogus brahmanas (institutionalized religions who don't follow their scriptures) and Bogus vaishyas (businessmen, merchants, etc), all of them are linked and working together for their own aims, and sadly we the sudras are the exploited and oppressed. The kaliyugic history is ever the same.

[theist]

 

Capitalisms is a demoniac system of life, not divine, there is no such thing in the scriptures.

 

Spiritual Communism is the way all centered in God

Exactly. The simple reality. Just as Capitalism is the vaisya mentality unbridled and run amock to the point of hellish hedonism in an attempt to have heaven (happy land) without God so is materialized Communism an attempt to develop heaven as a happy land for everyone without God.

 

Wet stool or dry stool, take your pick but they are both filled with disease causing germs.

 

Here is the scripturally revealed central point on how to structure a human life, and by extension a human society, that produces a peaceful mind as well as seeing to the material needs for all.

 

 

Sri Isopanishad Mantra 1. Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.

Mantra 2. One may aspire to live for hundreds of years if he continuously goes on working in that way, for that sort of work will not bind him to the law of karma. There is no alternative to this way for man.

[ganesh_g81]

Very nice ideas. Thanks.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

I am sorry about being such a windbag-but no philosophy has brought as much grief to mankind as Marxism.

 

Well put. To any thinking person, communism is the most repressive and murderous evil in the entire history of mankind. In excess of a hundred million human beings were taken out in Central and Eastern Europe by the minions of Lenin and Stalin. I have no time or inclination to develop a lengthy thesis here but the initial motive behind Marxism of the variety espoused by Leon Trotsky and his cohorts was nothing less than the overthrow of Czarist Russia.

 

Socialism is passe, and is an ideology which has failed on all counts. Those are are futilely attempting to revive it from the dustbins of history are only wasting their own time.

[Danielle Field]

There is a system that has brought about more misery to human culture than any other and that is Capitalism, beginning with the slave trade and the subsequent commodification of human life that has attended all of capitalism's history. It is a murderous and bloody system. It is perpetuated through warfare and yet I hear devotees always defending the principle tenets of capitalism as if they are arcane and divine. it is this I am challenging.

 

Yes attempts to overthrow capitalism have been bloody and yes Stalin's regime was bloody. Stalin was a psycho and the Russian revolution failed to extend internationally largely due to Stalin's successful efforts to subvert the revolution and resume the Russian Imperial project to his own advantage, much as Napoleon did to France after the French revoltuion.

 

Yet again I am not here to convert you to socialism only to open your eyes to the fact that capitalism is an abhorent economic system for all the reasons Marx laid out in his works. The dominant economic order needs to be overthrown in order to allow devotional life to develop (as previously stated) and socialists are more committed to changing the world than self satisfied little "devotees" who are only interested in the development of their own spiritual advancement and don't concern themselves with the project of revolutionising society along the lines of devotional principles.

 

Capitalism is in crisis and the tenure of human beings on earth is under great and real threat. Do you agree, or do you think, as many have suggested in this discussion that capitalism rules OK?

[Samia]

 

There is a system that has brought about more misery to human culture than any other and that is Capitalism, beginning with the slave trade and the subsequent commodification of human life that has attended all of capitalism's history. It is a murderous and bloody system. It is perpetuated through warfare and yet I hear devotees always defending the principle tenets of capitalism as if they are arcane and divine. it is this I am challenging.

 

 

So the world was a cheerful and there were butterflies and rainbows, then out of the darkness came an evil beast named capitalism

Man has always enslaved other men and animals, it is one of the symptoms of our diseased state. Call it whatever you want but I stand by the fact that if you blame misery on a system you are in reality to scared to confront the true source of that misery.

I am a follower of no system created by man I address misery at its true source, Other Humans. Wake up ok

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

So the world was a cheerful and there were butterflies and rainbows, then out of the darkness came an evil beast named capitalism

Man has always enslaved other men and animals, it is one of the symptoms of our diseased state. Call it whatever you want but I stand by the fact that if you blame misery on a system you are in reality to scared to confront the true source of that misery.

I am a follower of no system created by man I address misery at its true source, Other Humans. Wake up ok

 

Excellent. Capitalism certainly has its numerous flaws but Communism hasn't a single virtue to its merit worth mentioning. It is a perverted, utopic notion which has not, can not and will not succeed, ever. As for Marx, he was the son of a converted Jew whose prime interest lay in setting the foundations for his own people to control the political and economic instruments of the European, and predominantly Christian, societies in which they dwelled. The Das Capital was written with this in mind, much in the same way that Freud for his part came up with his bogus theories about anal fixation and potty training. This ought to be evident to anyone who has done his homework.

[Danielle Field]

Ah! The reek of predjudice. Anti semitism, Islamaphobia as well I bet and some choice opinions on people of all creeds that differ from you own sectarian interests I'll warrant. You two really are filled with fear of your fellow humans aren't you? Fear for your own lives, you wretched fools! Prabhupada didn't fear the hippies but everyone told him they were demons and that they deserved to go to hell. You will never know true love like Prabhupada taught until you learn to confront those fears. By the way Samia, where's BDM these days? Good to see you striking out on your own, or has he still got his finger on your controls?

 

How exactly are you going to "wake me up" when you are wedge deep in the myre of predjudice? You really should be ashamed of yourself for harbouring so much hate.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Ah! The reek of predjudice. Anti semitism, Islamaphobia as well I bet and some choice opinions on people of all creeds that differ from you own sectarian interests I'll warrant. You two really are filled with fear of your fellow humans aren't you? Fear for your own lives, you wretched fools! Prabhupada didn't fear the hippies but everyone told him they were demons and that they deserved to go to hell. You will never know true love like Prabhupada taught until you learn to confront those fears. By the way Samia, where's BDM these days? Good to see you striking out on your own, or has he still got his finger on your controls?

 

 

You know what, bla bla bla, bla bla bla. I am ready to bet that I mix and mingle with a more heterogeneous posse of friends and acquaintances than you do. I treat individuals the way they ought to be dealt with, i.e. with consideration and respect. That doesn't alter the fundamental truth about how communities behave as groups. Try living in an Arab land for a while, and you'll see what it means to be female in a Mohammedan context.

 

On another note, the role played by Semitic intellectual villains such as the two I cited earlier in the decline and weakening of the West is undeniable. Come on, use your brains Danielle, there are only 20 million Jews in the world approximately, and that is a negligible fraction of a percent, yet they literally own and possess the world economy. Do you really think that the breathtaking power which is wielded by this most ethnocentric of peoples came about without any planning and concerted effort on their part? THINK! I have no sectarian interests, just in passing. I am an agnostic (searching for truth, admittedly), so your potshot at me is ill-advised to say the least.

[Danielle Field]

I'm done. I thought it was about time to come back and address these issues again but it just really upsets me when people are callous and disrespectful and I hate falling down to that level. Internet forums probably aren't the best place to pursue these discussions. They certainly don't bring out the best in people that's for sure.

[Samia]

I hate noone because I understand what the human condition is. I am not a coward that hides behind slogans blaming systems for mans misdeeds. I actually spend my time working with and helping people that need it, and since I asked several times to no avail I assume that you don`t.

As with most " socialists " you simply are walking around proud of your little look at me Che t-shirts but doing not much else.

 

So I pose this question again besides march and carry neat little signs what have you done for your fellow human lately ? Cook any meals, help anyone displaced by weather, build a community center/book trade ?

 

Didn`t think so.......

[Vikram Ramsundar]

Danielle Field is a lowlife scumbag for daring to use the atrocious type of expletives that she came up with in her now deleted replies to Samia. She also wrote an extraordinarily hostile private message to me, which I'm way too good-mannered to reproduce here. She is the archetype of the lunatic far-left extremist, and I suggest that she goes back to where she belongs, and refrains from interacting with us decent lot here. We have already given her more than enough of our precious time. She can rot in hell for eternity. We do not care.

[Samia]

 

Danielle Field is a lowlife scumbag for daring to use the atrocious type of expletives that she came up with in her now deleted replies to Samia. She also wrote an extraordinarily hostile private message to me, which I'm way too good-mannered to reproduce here. She is the archetype of the lunatic far-left extremist, and I suggest that she goes back to where she belongs, and refrains from interacting with us decent lot here. We have already given her more than enough of our precious time. She can rot in hell for eternity. We do not care.

 

I wish her no bad and I am sorry I posted the PM but I felt everyone who has viewed this thread had the right to see what type of person this was. Extremist is a fitting word as she had no room for anyone that fit her narrow world view, the funny thing is that even though I am very right leaning I still get a ton of respect from alot of left leaners as I have worked beside them on community projects. One of my best friends in California is a lifelong anarchist who grew up in the UK on the streets with Class War and other groups but we email and talk all the time with no animosity whatsoever. I also have friends that I made years ago from Positive Force back in DC that respect my beliefs and I theirs mainly due to the fact once again of community involvement. Right or left is just a label, your actions are what make up your soul and she was just a unimportant little banner waver.

[Danielle Field]

Apology accepted Samia. Although I would prefer it if you apologised for having adopted numerous personalities on this forum in order to sabotage my position. I suspect the reason the people you work with on your welfare projects are more respectful to you because you think more carefully about what you are going to say to them than you do to me. If you weren't one of them would probably have hit you by now. I have to add also, the thought of someone working on community welfare projects harbouring such spiteful predjudices towards some of the most vulnerable groups in society is, frankly, disturbing.

 

As for being a low life scum, no, Vikram, I am not. I have a very long fuse, but when its blows you know about it. A lot of that is due to the abuse i received at the hands of ISKCON and from various other aspects of this life of which I grow tired. Socialism has taught me a lot of important lessons about how to stop hating myself and others and I wanted to discuss this with people who had maybe had similar experiences. I didn't come here on a recruitment drive. Unfortunately I have been treated as though I am and all the scorn people harbour for the word socialism has been poured on me and it has had its effect.

 

Every time I come on this forum I get called stupid, ignorant, thoughtless, heartless, worthless, it seems now most of those insults have been coming from the same person pretending to be a group in order to bolster their position. In truth I don't even know now if the two of you are the same person. Bit creepy in truth. There is only so much of that taunting, teasing, deriding and, frankly, bullying I can take. I wish I had enough self respect to just walk away from it all, and I did for a good length of time. I was hoping after having left it for a while things might be different, especially now BDM has gone. But no, cos you're still there aren't you Samia. Still waiting to pounce every time I speak with your callous one liners.

[Samia]

 

Apology accepted Samia. Although I would prefer it if you apologised for having adopted numerous personalities on this forum in order to sabotage my position. I suspect the reason the people you work with on your welfare projects are more respectful to you because you think more carefully about what you are going to say to them than you do to me. If you weren't one of them would probably have hit you by now. I have to add also, the thought of someone working on community welfare projects harbouring such spiteful predjudices towards some of the most vulnerable groups in society is, frankly, disturbing.

 

 

1. I have no need to create multiple accounts to state my opinion, I am and have always been Samia my choppy grammer is pretty easy to pick out so using different names would be quite silly.

2. I never think about what I am going to say to anyone, that much again should be obvious by my posts. I have yet to be hit by anyone but then again most of the people I run with and encounter are passionate and not extremists. Most of the Anarchists I know are really quite reasonable and just consider me misguided but they respect the fact that I dont pretend or hide who I am or what I believe.

3. Ah the failsafe of your just predjice, you know there really should be an internet / real life rule like Godwins law if you know what I mean

Tell me, for which vulnerable groups do I have predjudice ? I personaly can think of two neither really fall under vulnerable, Banner wavers and yes I do tend to distrust Muslims.

Before you step up on your pious platform though I know for a fact that they distrust I feel for Muslims is the same attitude ALOT of socialists have twords Christians so worry about your own backyard first

[Danielle Field]

Its very hard and frustrating to talk to someone who isn't listening is all. Be honest, you haven't read most of the posts I've written, have you? You just think I'm an extremist little banner waver who doesn't deserve to be listened to, so why talk? My point is that you've thought that from the very moment that you saw this discussion posted. You've completely ignored the parts where I have explained how and why I came to these conclusions and why I want help understanding that and, frankly, being rude to me in the hopes that I'd go away hasn't helped at all.

[Vikram Ramsundar]

 

Its very hard and frustrating to talk to someone who isn't listening is all. Be honest, you haven't read most of the posts I've written, have you? You just think I'm an extremist little banner waver who doesn't deserve to be listened to, so why talk? My point is that you've thought that from the very moment that you saw this discussion posted. You've completely ignored the parts where I have explained how and why I came to these conclusions and why I want help understanding that and, frankly, being rude to me in the hopes that I'd go away hasn't helped at all.

 

With all due respect, Ms. Field, Samia isn't the one who stooped to vulgarity of the basest denomination with words like f***, b**** and w****, thereby evincing to the rest of the world what cheap stuff she was made of; on the contrary, *someone else* did precisely that. All along, she was thoroughly decent and civilised.

 

Give it a rest, Danielle. We've witnessed your debating skills and had a glance at your mental faculties. I cannot speak for others evidently but *my* gut reaction henceforth shall be to steer clear of you, as much as is humanly possible that is. Cheers.

[Samia]

 

Its very hard and frustrating to talk to someone who isn't listening is all. Be honest, you haven't read most of the posts I've written, have you? You just think I'm an extremist little banner waver who doesn't deserve to be listened to, so why talk? My point is that you've thought that from the very moment that you saw this discussion posted. You've completely ignored the parts where I have explained how and why I came to these conclusions and why I want help understanding that and, frankly, being rude to me in the hopes that I'd go away hasn't helped at all.

 

I listen quite well and have read all the posts, you think with the people I know I haven`t heard a great chunk of what you have said before ? I have listened to everything you have said and as obvious by your avoiding key issues and tossing accusations my way you haven`t listened to what I have said all along or maybe the concept is just to frightening to you. You want to blame systems and believe in systems as a vehicle for change and I call BS on it because no system created by man can change what resides in the hearts of men. Capatilism has killed but so has your precious socialism. The only true force of change is action ( sorry waving a banner doesn`t count as action ) If people are hungry FEED THEM ! If people need shelter BUILD IT ! Marching is nothing more than sense gratification without true action. Really I could care less if you went away, I just have this little spark of hope though that maybe something I say will sink in and you will take your passion and do something useful with it then maybe folks would take you a bit more seriously as well. Come on I dare you to take 2 hours of your time a week to do SOMETHING. Doesn`t even have to be to difficult, pick up trash, or plant some plants in a poorer neighborhood see what sort of response you get then. If thats too tough do some door to door for your local foodbank or go tutor at a youth center for a bit.