Why not varnasrama?

August 21, 2006

> Are there any somewhat ideal varnasrama examples anywhere in ISKCON?

We should not be arrogant to think that leaders are "no good" because they

have not done enough to implement VA in ISKCON. That is one answer to "why

not VA?" Confrontation with leadership is usually an opposite direction from

VA - ie following the leading classes. Not that one has to follow blindly,

rather one should become a leader according to ones guna/karma not iskcon

janma.

I do feel, as you all i guess, that exisitng examples of varnasrama

communities are failing to attract devotees and are failing to retain (what

to speak of attracting) second generation of devotees. Is there anyone who

feels otherwise?

Im going on about the original question :why not varnasrama". but

at the same time we have varnasrama in ISKCON already (an incomplete and

failing but it is there). And it is better then nothing. My understanding is

that without VA basis nothing can possibly exist socially for long. So

another reason "why not varnasrama" is because VApeople often try to present

it as a completely different system to what we have now with all asramas and

varnas (even if we dont call it this way). Again in prinicple such

start-from-scratch approach is against the principle of varanasrama, as it

builds on what you have not what you want. Again possibly taking SP out of

social context when he speaks on social matters. So when he speaks on social

issues -- its good to look at the social surrounding of iskcon on the day.

On a positive note: why don't you people try to build VA examples/communal

life in places where there are many devotees so that the roles can be played

out/people educated and not that you will sit among 10 people and discuss:

Okay who is going to be shudra for today. There is a critical mass for VA.

One reason why SP did not speak about it from the start (there are other)

One devotee I know is starting to build a VA community in Chernigov Ukraine.

That an idea - a lot of material and if you fail - nobody will know, (except

if you speak russian I mean.) And believe me,/ unlike other places/ you will

not need to lower the standard for devotees who play role of shudra or

vaisya. They will follow regs and chant the same way they do now. There is

no way you can introduce anything of a sort in ISKCON with any changes to

absolute minimum for an ISKCON devotee - something Krtnnd did. Read gbc

resolution on "unity in diversity".

ys

CCD

PS I don;t think that a community can be duplicated, replicated and

multiplied, _but_ if there is a sucessful example it creates a huge push and

social movement. With failing examples on contrary there will be no need to

ask: why not va?

>

> Just simple living and no electricity is not anywhere near complete

> varnasrama. There is so much more to it than that.

>

> The ideal in essence would be all four varnas accommodated in a community

> to develop in Krishna consciousness. But the devil is in the numerous

> details. New Vrindavana USA have tried hard, but they had a lot of

> problems with their sudras (and others too) who could not follow the

> regulative principles on the property.

>

> This gives rise to a crucial question: Is it actually possible to have an

> ideal varnasrama community of even a few hundred people where they ALL

> follow ALL the basic regulative principles? From what we see in our

> society thus far the realistic answer to that is no. Srila Prabhupada said

> even the sudras have to follow the regulative principles...

>

> Do we have any ideal varnasrama examples?

>

> If we get just one community right, we just then duplicate everywhere

> else.

>

> > > What is missing is an understanding that varnasrama

> > > is necesary.

> >

> > Here is one answer.

> >

> > So many things that were asked by Prabhupada were not complete and

> > likely will never be. Most of devotees I know do just necessary minimum.

> > Prabhupada did not start with VA in NY66 and never said it was the

> > necessary minimum.

> >

> > So as the result there always be ones who think it is essential and

> > those who think it is not.

> >

> > First part of the devotees should show by example of working VA that it

> > is essential and then the rest will accept it as such. Training by

> > example that is the way Srila Prabhupada wanted to establish VA

> > community say in Gita nagari.

> >

August 22, 2006

Dear Balabadra prabhu

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada

In Iskcon we like to present ourselves with alot of successes to attempt to

prove to ourselves and others that we are doing great in representing

Prabhupada and the whole paramparas mission.

I would suggest that we take a very objective and humble look at ourselves

to see how much we are indeed protecting and developing brahmanical culture

and how we are protecting and cows as per the eternal instructions of Krsna

and His representitives.

My experience of nearly 30 years is that Iskcon has manifested many anti

brahmanical traits and has done very little except in a couple of isolated

cases to protect the cows. And the whole varnasrama society brilliantly

offered by Krsna and represented by Prabhupada in his teachings has eluded

us.

> Srila Prabhupada once again is trying to teach us by laying out the

> instructions in simple step by step fashion. If you do like this and like

> this then a certain result will be there.

>

> However, if you dont follow these step by step instructions then

> everything will be in a precarious position.

this is the point. We are failing to take to the science of KC. Infact we

shun it many times as redundant or irrelavant. I see that the precarious

condition that we indeed find ourselves in can only have two possibilities

1. There is no science to follow, KC is a fallacy in itself,

or

2. It is a science that we fail to follow properly.

Personally I lean strongly towards the second option. So therefore let,s

serve together to take the particles of the puzzle and put them together.

I have just finished doing some puzzles with my wife, daughter and her

parents. All of us in the beginning were bewildered as to how the pieces

could come together to form the shape that the makers of the puzzle were

saying existed. But then little by little after moving them around in this

way and that way one of us got it right. This gave a shout of encouragement

from the others that it was indeed possible and renewed our enthusiasm to

try for ourselves. After some time the second got it and then the third.

Soon all of us had realised by him or her self how the puzzle worked.

This is Krsna consciousness. The puzzle has been realised and written down

by Krsna in His various incarnations and by His pure hearted servants.

We have to sit at Thier lotus feet and execute. Simple. The brahmanas hold

the key of success or failure in this regard.

ys Visnu Murti das

> Dear Prabhus,

>

> Please accept my humble obeisences. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

>

> Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto8, Chapter 24, Text 5

>

> Translation

>

> Sri Sukadeva Goswami said: O King, for the sake of protecting the

> cows,brahmanas,demigods,devotees, the Vedic literature, religious

> principles, and principles to fulfill the aim of life, the Supreme

> Personality of Godhead accepts the forms of incarnations.

>

> Purport

>

> The Supreme Personality og Godhead generally appears in various types of

> incarnations to give protection to the cows and brahmanas. The Lord is

> described as go-brahmana-hitaya ca: in other words, He is always eager to

> benefit the cows and brahmanas. When Lord Krsna appeared, HE PURPOSEFULLY

> BECAME A COWHERD BOY AND SHOWED PERSONALLY HOW TO GIVE PROTECTION TO THE

> COWS AND CALVES. Similarily,He showed respect to Sudama Vipra, a real

> Brahmana. From the Lord's personal activities,human society should learn

> how to give protection specifically to the brahmanas and cows. Then the

> protection of religious principles, fulfillment of the aim of life and

> protection of Vedic knowledge can be achieved. Without protection of

> cows, brahminical culture cannot be maintained; and without braminical

> culture the aim of life cannot be fulfilled. The Lord therefore, is

> described as go-brahmana-hitaya because His incarnation is only for the

> protection of the cows and brahmanas. Unfortunately, because in Kali Yuga

> there is no protection of the cows and brahminical culture, everything is

> in a precarious position. If society wants to be exalted, the leaders of

> society must follow the instructions of Bhagavad-gita and give protection

> to the cows, the brahmanas and brahminical culture.

>

> Srila Prabhupada once again is trying to teach us by laying out the

> instructions in simple step by step fashion. If you do like this and like

> this then a certain result will be there.

>

> However, if you dont follow these step by step instructions then

> everything will be in a precarious position.

>

> Begging to remain your servant in the service of the cows.

>

> Balabhadra das

>

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>

> > [Original Message]

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