Guest guest Posted August 23, 2006 Report Share Posted August 23, 2006 It's an odd game we play. A game of hide and seek we play with ourselves. Children with eyes closed tight, fearing our own darkness. Reaching out for God with one hand, and pushing away with the other.......We do that, you know, all of us. Look closely and you'll see that God remains at arms length by virtue of our most strenuous efforts. When you think about it, how else is the glare of Truth to be hidden by a shadow without substance? Ahh, and then there's that thinking problem. We mustn't think, because thoughts are like illusionists hiding the Great Rabbit in the hat. But then once we have that down to a science, we find that there was never anybody here to exact that science. Then again, what does this nonvolitional individual do with such information? If the choice is made to change the game because we now know we don't even exist as choosers, then the information is clearly unclear to this absent presence. As for me, I've grown weary of the game, which would be seen as a victory of sorts if not for the fact that it's seen as a victory. The greatest spiritual wisdom I ever heard came from the sacred text of a bad movie called "War Games". When the super computer had gone through every iteration of possible attack/counterattack, problem/solution; as the planet was moments away from thermonuclear annihilation in the hands of a thinking machine, this machine came to the most glorious conclusion. A solution that has thus far escaped the cognitive grasp of humanity's most brilliant. Our computer finally shut down the missile launches, and calmly remarked, "Strange game. The only way to win.......is to not play the game." Genius! Phil What is the Difference Between "I,I Am" and "I-I"? Posted by: "Era Molnar" n0ndual (AT) webtv (DOT) net n0ndual Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:32 pm (PDT) "Although the distinctions are often ignored or blurred, it can be observed that there is more than one "I" in Awareness. While some current Nondualists point almost exclusively to the separative "I" logic which creates a sense of separation (I versus other), Nisargadatta Maharaj also speaks of the "I Am" and going beyond the "I Am," and Ramana Maharshi speaks of the "I-I." As we grow from childhood to adulthood, it is normal to develop a strong sense of a separate self (ego) that seems to stand apart from all else. When we refer to ourselves or say "I," we unconsciously assume and include a complex set of identifications and memories (I am this), such as our name, body, family, education, career, personal history, and so on. But, through persistent self-inquiry and observation, it can be seen that the sense of a separate "I" does not exist except as a concept. It is nothing more than an illusory, fuzzy, abstract reference point in Awareness. Moreover, it is accompanied by a supporting logic which interprets all events as happening to that reference point. In other words, the "I" logic always interprets events as happening to a centralized "me" rather than just happening in the field of Awareness. That false interpretation creates a veil of separation, an illusion of "me" versus other. In the minimalist description of enlightenment adopted by many Nondualists, enlightenment means undermining that separative "I" logic through a deep understanding of it. The undermining of it reveals that you have never been separate from the world. It reveals that you are the world and that reality, here and now, just as it is, is your own Self. The revelation can be described as a shift in consciousness from identifying with the illusion of a separate self to identifying with the all-inclusive Self. But, as the term suggests, the "Self" is itself an "I." Although it is spacious, all-inclusive and de-centralized, the Self expresses itself assertively as "I Am." It is, in fact, the real you expressing itself through a body-mind as the self-evident certainty that it (you) exists. Some call it Presence and may describe it further as creative, intelligent energy, because the "I Am" includes both the creation and the recognition of the world as one's Self. In its creative aspect, and as expressed through a body-mind, it is an act of individualization (sometimes called "Atman"), a personal expression of Self which arises from the Heart. The "I Am" is also an inseparable part of the "I-I" continuity that Ramana Maharshi refers to when he points out that the Self shines in the Heart as "I-I." The other part of the "I-I" is the impersonal Self, and it is also what Nisargadatta Maharaj refers to as beyond "I Am." Through further self-inquiry, observation, and reversal of the mind's exteriorization, the "I Am" dissolves back into the Heart, into nameless, indescribable, ineffable, impersonal being (Brahman), the "I" of Awareness without attributes. This impersonal "I" is the true and pure Witness, or Awareness, that is always present, shining through creation, but prior to creation. As mentioned previously, all of these "I's" can be observed and distinguished. No part of your nature is really hidden. For example, you get a taste of the creation and dissolution of the "I Am" whenever you fall into or awaken from deep sleep. When the "I Am" arises, the world appears; when it dissolves, the world disappears. You also get a taste of the impersonal bliss of Brahman when you disappear into deep sleep. But the bliss that can occur in the waking state is usually the experience of the creative energy, sometimes called shakti, which arises from the Heart." * * * When the 'I am myself' goes, the 'I am all' comes. When the 'I am all' goes, 'I am' comes. When even 'I am' goes, reality alone is.. ~Nisargadatta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Vanakkam Anna! just internalize ..... there are no rights and wrongs in the paths that we "take / choose" because that depends on our character, our temperament and our spiritual maturity. in short it is based on our praharbdha karma. like what Bhagawan has said to many devotees, it is imperative to "know" that thoughts are inconsistent with Realization..... there can be no answer to the "Naan yaar?" question because it is dissolving the "I-thought", which Bhagawan has stressed innumerable times, "is the parent of ALL other thoughts...." in the Ribhu Gita, it states that even the enquiry into the ultimate nature of one's own existense is a concept..... at the end of it all, even this sadhana is also just another perception..... Anbudan! anabebe57 <kailashana (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote: , "Era Molnar" <n0ndual wrote: > > "Although the distinctions are often ignored or blurred, it can be observed that there is more than one "I" in Awareness. While some current Nondualists point almost exclusively to the separative "I" logic which creates a sense of separation (I versus other), Nisargadatta Maharaj also speaks of the "I Am" and going beyond the "I Am," and Ramana Maharshi speaks of the "I-I." > > As we grow from childhood to adulthood, it is normal to develop a strong sense of a separate self (ego) that seems to stand apart from all else. When we refer to ourselves or say "I," we unconsciously assume and include a complex set of identifications and memories (I am this), such as our name, body, family, education, career, personal history, and so on. > > But, through persistent self-inquiry and observation, it can be seen that the sense of a separate "I" does not exist except as a concept. It is nothing more than an illusory, fuzzy, abstract reference point in Awareness. Moreover, it is accompanied by a supporting logic which interprets all events as happening to that reference point. In other words, the "I" logic always interprets events as happening to a centralized "me" rather than just happening in the field of Awareness. > > That false interpretation creates a veil of separation, an illusion of "me" versus other. > In the minimalist description of enlightenment adopted by many Nondualists, enlightenment means undermining that separative "I" logic through a deep understanding of it. > > The undermining of it reveals that you have never been separate from the world. It reveals that you are the world and that reality, here and now, just as it is, is your own Self. The revelation can be described as a shift in consciousness from identifying with the illusion of a separate self to identifying with the all-inclusive Self. > But, as the term suggests, the "Self" is itself an "I." > > Although it is spacious, all-inclusive and de-centralized, the Self expresses itself assertively as "I Am." It is, in fact, the real you expressing itself through a body-mind as the self-evident certainty that it (you) exists. > > Some call it Presence and may describe it further as creative, intelligent energy, because the "I Am" includes both the creation and the recognition of the world as one's Self. In its creative aspect, and as expressed through a body-mind, it is an act of individualization (sometimes called "Atman"), a personal expression of Self which arises from the Heart. > > The "I Am" is also an inseparable part of the "I-I" continuity that Ramana Maharshi refers to when he points out that the Self shines in the Heart as "I-I." The other part of the "I-I" is the impersonal Self, and it is also what Nisargadatta Maharaj refers to as beyond "I Am." Through further self-inquiry, observation, and reversal of the mind's exteriorization, the "I Am" dissolves back into the Heart, into nameless, indescribable, ineffable, impersonal being (Brahman), the "I" of Awareness without attributes. This impersonal "I" is the true and pure Witness, or Awareness, that is always present, shining through creation, but prior to creation. > As mentioned previously, all of these "I's" can be observed and distinguished. No part of your nature is really hidden. For example, you get a taste of the creation and dissolution of the "I Am" whenever you fall into or awaken from deep sleep. When the "I Am" arises, the world appears; when it dissolves, the world disappears. You also get a taste of the impersonal bliss of Brahman when you disappear into deep sleep. But the bliss that can occur in the waking state is usually the experience of the creative energy, sometimes called shakti, which arises from the Heart." > > * * * > When the 'I am myself' goes, the 'I am all' comes. When the 'I am all' goes, 'I am' comes. When even 'I am' goes, reality alone is.. ~Nisargadatta > ...and these three states of "I" co-arise and co-create the reality of illusions as well as the dissolution of all worlds even as the Self abides in Nothng but the Self. An experience in/as/of Life itself. Is this not so? YIL Anna PEACE through SURRENDER ... Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 mango tree wrote: > in the Ribhu Gita, it states that even the enquiry into the ultimate nature of one's own existense is a concept..... PROOF! that God has a wicked sense of humor... > at the end of it all, even this sadhana is also just another perception..... > > Anbudan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 All words and concepts can be negated. This is the nature of language. There is a song by Beejee's an old rock group from Australia, and it states, "words are all I have to take your heart away." Sri Ramana said that the highest teaching and transmission is in silence and pointed to the eloquence of Dakshinamurty. Love to all Harsha David wrote: > > mango tree wrote: > > > in the Ribhu Gita, it states that even the enquiry into the ultimate > nature of one's own existense is a concept..... > > PROOF! that God has a wicked sense of humor... > > > at the end of it all, even this sadhana is also just another > perception..... > > > > Anbudan! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 Namaste Phil, I remember that line well, I wrote it;-) What else would we be doing if we weren't playing???? eh? Wink. YIL, Anna , ADHHUB wrote: > > > > It's an odd game we play. A game of hide and seek we play with ourselves. > Children with eyes closed tight, fearing our own darkness. Reaching out for God > with one hand, and pushing away with the other.......We do that, you know, > all of us. Look closely and you'll see that God remains at arms length by > virtue of our most strenuous efforts. When you think about it, how else is the > glare of Truth to be hidden by a shadow without substance? > > Ahh, and then there's that thinking problem. We mustn't think, because > thoughts are like illusionists hiding the Great Rabbit in the hat. But then once > we have that down to a science, we find that there was never anybody here to > exact that science. Then again, what does this nonvolitional individual do > with such information? If the choice is made to change the game because we now > know we don't even exist as choosers, then the information is clearly unclear > to this absent presence. > > As for me, I've grown weary of the game, which would be seen as a victory of > sorts if not for the fact that it's seen as a victory. The greatest > spiritual wisdom I ever heard came from the sacred text of a bad movie called "War > Games". When the super computer had gone through every iteration of possible > attack/counterattack, problem/solution; as the planet was moments away from > thermonuclear annihilation in the hands of a thinking machine, this machine came > to the most glorious conclusion. A solution that has thus far escaped the > cognitive grasp of humanity's most brilliant. Our computer finally shut down > the missile launches, and calmly remarked, "Strange game. The only way to > win.......is to not play the game." Genius! > > Phil > > > > > > What is the Difference Between "I,I Am" and "I-I"? > Posted by: "Era Molnar" n0ndual n0ndual > Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:32 pm (PDT) > > "Although the distinctions are often ignored or blurred, it can be observed > that there is more than one "I" in Awareness. While some current Nondualists > point almost exclusively to the separative "I" logic which creates a sense of > separation (I versus other), Nisargadatta Maharaj also speaks of the "I Am" > and going beyond the "I Am," and Ramana Maharshi speaks of the "I- I." > > As we grow from childhood to adulthood, it is normal to develop a strong > sense of a separate self (ego) that seems to stand apart from all else. When we > refer to ourselves or say "I," we unconsciously assume and include a complex > set of identifications and memories (I am this), such as our name, body, > family, education, career, personal history, and so on. > > But, through persistent self-inquiry and observation, it can be seen that > the sense of a separate "I" does not exist except as a concept. It is nothing > more than an illusory, fuzzy, abstract reference point in Awareness. Moreover, > it is accompanied by a supporting logic which interprets all events as > happening to that reference point. In other words, the "I" logic always interprets > events as happening to a centralized "me" rather than just happening in the > field of Awareness. > > That false interpretation creates a veil of separation, an illusion of "me" > versus other. > In the minimalist description of enlightenment adopted by many Nondualists, > enlightenment means undermining that separative "I" logic through a deep > understanding of it. > > The undermining of it reveals that you have never been separate from the > world. It reveals that you are the world and that reality, here and now, just as > it is, is your own Self. The revelation can be described as a shift in > consciousness from identifying with the illusion of a separate self to identifying > with the all-inclusive Self. > But, as the term suggests, the "Self" is itself an "I." > > Although it is spacious, all-inclusive and de-centralized, the Self > expresses itself assertively as "I Am." It is, in fact, the real you expressing > itself through a body-mind as the self-evident certainty that it (you) exists. > > Some call it Presence and may describe it further as creative, intelligent > energy, because the "I Am" includes both the creation and the recognition of > the world as one's Self. In its creative aspect, and as expressed through a > body-mind, it is an act of individualization (sometimes called "Atman"), a > personal expression of Self which arises from the Heart. > > The "I Am" is also an inseparable part of the "I-I" continuity that Ramana > Maharshi refers to when he points out that the Self shines in the Heart as > "I-I." The other part of the "I-I" is the impersonal Self, and it is also what > Nisargadatta Maharaj refers to as beyond "I Am." Through further self-inquiry, > observation, and reversal of the mind's exteriorization, the "I Am" > dissolves back into the Heart, into nameless, indescribable, ineffable, impersonal > being (Brahman), the "I" of Awareness without attributes. This impersonal "I" > is the true and pure Witness, or Awareness, that is always present, shining > through creation, but prior to creation. > As mentioned previously, all of these "I's" can be observed and > distinguished. No part of your nature is really hidden. For example, you get a taste of > the creation and dissolution of the "I Am" whenever you fall into or awaken > from deep sleep. When the "I Am" arises, the world appears; when it dissolves, > the world disappears. You also get a taste of the impersonal bliss of Brahman > when you disappear into deep sleep. But the bliss that can occur in the > waking state is usually the experience of the creative energy, sometimes called > shakti, which arises from the Heart." > > * * * > When the 'I am myself' goes, the 'I am all' comes. When the 'I am all' goes, > 'I am' comes. When even 'I am' goes, reality alone is.. ~Nisargadatta > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 , "David" <david.bozzi wrote: > > mango tree wrote: > > > in the Ribhu Gita, it states that even the enquiry into the ultimate > nature of one's own existense is a concept..... > > > PROOF! that God has a wicked sense of humor... > > > > > > at the end of it all, even this sadhana is also just another > perception..... > > > > Anbudan! > god, though being beyond all senses, has definitely one sense. it is the seventh sense: the sense of humor. thank god! (though it isn't very funny, sometimes) hehe yosy "not all situations may include laughter; but laughter may contain all situations" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 There was an e-mail sent earlier from my e-mail address which was an ad. The e-mail was not from me. I have put the whole list on moderation for now. Harsha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Harsha, the mail wasn't sent from your e-mail address but from 71.74.235.223 The spammer used your ID to send the ad so (s)he either hacked into your password(s) or forged headers. Best, to change password(s) first and next, to file a lawsuit as what happened defines as crime. Jan Harsha wrote: > There was an e-mail sent earlier from my e-mail address which was an ad. > The e-mail was not from me. I have put the whole list on moderation for now. > > Harsha > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Thanks Jan. I checked the headers of the message and you are right. Some one forged the headers. This is not right and constitutes e-mail fraud. Is their an international law or do the laws differ by country? Harsha ecirada wrote: > > Harsha, the mail wasn't sent from your e-mail address > but from 71.74.235.223 > The spammer used your ID to send the ad so > (s)he either hacked into your password(s) or forged > headers. > Best, to change password(s) first and next, > to file a lawsuit as what happened defines as crime. > > Jan > > Harsha wrote: > >> There was an e-mail sent earlier from my e-mail address which was an ad. >> The e-mail was not from me. I have put the whole list on moderation for now. >> >> Harsha >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi Harsha, Even in Nigeria it's against the law to forge headers, another issue is the difficulty to start a lawsuit. In the US it could be fairly easy and in this case, the Terms Of Service (T.O.S.) applicable to mailing lists have been violated also. Forwarding the forged mail to with the request to start a lawsuit might be all that's required. Then there's the possibility of an overzealous spammer who might be doing the employer a disservice: inform the company's lawyer of impending steps as well as that could lead to a settlement without much hassle and dazzle. Jan Harsha wrote: > Thanks Jan. I checked the headers of the message and you are right. > Some one forged the headers. This is not right and constitutes e-mail > fraud. Is their an international law or do the laws differ by country? > > Harsha > > ecirada wrote: >> >> Harsha, the mail wasn't sent from your e-mail address >> but from 71.74.235.223 >> The spammer used your ID to send the ad so >> (s)he either hacked into your password(s) or forged >> headers. >> Best, to change password(s) first and next, >> to file a lawsuit as what happened defines as crime. >> >> Jan >> >> Harsha wrote: >> >>> There was an e-mail sent earlier from my e-mail address which was an ad. >>> The e-mail was not from me. I have put the whole list on moderation for now. >>> >>> Harsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 OK. Good ideas Jan. We actually have lawyers on the HS team who advise us and I will check into this. My tendency is to let it go, if it is the first offense. Its a hassle to have a moderated list because invariably messages will be delayed. I apologize to the members but spam is a serious problem on that moderators have to contend with and there is no simple solution to it. Hope you will be patient if your message is delayed. Thanks, Love to all Harsha (P.S. Jan I wrote you privately on your e-mail address). ecirada wrote: > > Hi Harsha, > > Even in Nigeria it's against the law to forge headers, > another issue is the difficulty to start a lawsuit. > In the US it could be fairly easy and in this case, the > Terms Of Service (T.O.S.) applicable to mailing > lists have been violated also. Forwarding the forged > mail to with the request to start a lawsuit might be > all that's required. > > Then there's the possibility of an overzealous spammer > who might be doing the employer a disservice: inform > the company's lawyer of impending steps as well as that > could lead to a settlement without much hassle and dazzle. > > Jan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 Hi Harsha, A spammer forging headers might be a professional, expanding the territory so what's a first offense from your perspective, isn't so from another. Before i had set the "delete spam immediately" option on mail, quite a lot of spam was received. The disadvantage of the setting, spam from mailing lists still goes unchecked and a lot of "first" mails are being swallowed as well, i didn't receive your letter. Jan Harsha wrote: > OK. Good ideas Jan. We actually have lawyers on the HS team who > advise us and I will check into this. My tendency is to let it go, if > it is the first offense. Its a hassle to have a moderated list because > invariably messages will be delayed. I apologize to the members but > spam is a serious problem on that moderators have to > contend with and there is no simple solution to it. > > Hope you will be patient if your message is delayed. > > Thanks, > Love to all > Harsha (P.S. Jan I wrote you privately on your e-mail address). > [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2006 Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 You are right Jan. Spamming and e-mail fraud is rampant and needs to be checked. From this point on, if there is an incident of this on the list, the abuse will be investigated and the e-mails will be forwarded to the appropriate authorities. I sent you another private e-mail Jan. Harsha ecirada wrote: > > Hi Harsha, > > A spammer forging headers might be a professional, expanding > the territory so what's a first offense from your perspective, isn't > so from another. Before i had set the "delete spam immediately" > option on mail, quite a lot of spam was received. The > disadvantage of the setting, spam from mailing lists still goes > unchecked and a lot of "first" mails are being swallowed as well, > i didn't receive your letter. > > Jan > > Harsha wrote: > >> OK. Good ideas Jan. We actually have lawyers on the HS team who >> advise us and I will check into this. My tendency is to let it go, if >> it is the first offense. Its a hassle to have a moderated list >> because invariably messages will be delayed. I apologize to the >> members but spam is a serious problem on that moderators >> have to contend with and there is no simple solution to it. >> >> Hope you will be patient if your message is delayed. >> >> Thanks, >> Love to all >> Harsha (P.S. Jan I wrote you privately on your e-mail address). >> > [...] > -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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