Guest guest Posted August 11, 2006 Report Share Posted August 11, 2006 Respected Sri Subbuji, Pranaams. Your postings on the above subject are very informative and the clarifications sought by Shri. SrinivasaMurthy Ji are very interesting. While giving the clarifications as Shri MurthyJi asked I request you to throw some more light on the following. I have read some where that Brahman is the Vivartopadana karana and Ajnana or Maya is the Parinamopadana karana. Can they both be Upadana Karanas for the Universe? And there is a Sruthi in Sv.Up 6-8 that "Na tasya karyam karanam cha vidyate" which means that there is cause or effect of Brahman. Thanking you sir Moses Yesupadam Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 advaitin, sreenivasa murthy <narayana145 wrote: > > From; H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy > Pranams to all. > > subrahmanian_v <subrahmanian_v wrote: > > Dear Sri Subramanian, > You have written : " In the Veda we have the teaching that Brahman is the material cause of the universe". Upanishads also proclaim that Brahman or Atman is the cause of the world . Sri Shankara in Sutrabhashya has established that Brahman is the cause. > Some of the advaitic texts say that the Primordial Ignorance or Mulavidya is the material cause of the universe. Some say that Ignorance or Maya is the Prakriti which is the material cause of the universe. > > Which one amongst the two is the fact ? > Which has to be assepted as the Truth? > I stand to be corrected if my reading is erroneous. > A reply from you will help to dispel the confusion and conflict. > Namaste Sir, The above topic was very recently discussed in a reply by me to Hersh ji. That is the latest post of mine to Hersh ji. Below is provided the Sutrabhashya reference link: http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritual/brahma_sutra/brahma_sutra_sankar a_34134.php In this and the subsequent sutras of that adhikaraNa, you will find the Acharya's views of the Upanishadic statements. As Shri Yesupadam has pointed out, Advaita accepts two Upaadaana kaaranams for the universe, and it works like this: Supposing we draw a large circle and call it Brahman, Parabrahman. A smaller circle inside it we call Maya or Prakriti. This smaller circle can be seen as the cause when the manifest world is resolved and itself can be seen as the effect, that is the manifest world (in jagrat and svapna). Now, the smaller circle is within the Bigger circle we called Brahman. Brahman is the underlying substratum for the whole universe which is kaarya-kaaranaatmika. Brahman is beyond this kaarya-kaaranaatmika prapancha and yet is the Super Kaarana of the prapancha. Thus, Maya or Prakriti or Mulavidya whatever name is given to Ignorance, it is the pariNaami upaadaana kaarana of the jagat. Parinaami because it, Maya, being constituted of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, undergoes parinaama to bring out the jagat and withdraw the jagat in pralaya. But Brahman, being free from the three gunas, is a-parinaami. Yet, since, the Maya, Prakriti, the tri- gunaatmikaa, is jada, inert, it cannot be a cause independent of the Chaitanya, Parabrahman. Thus, Parabrahman, by 'yielding' chaitanya, sentiency to Maya, becomes the Kaarana for the Jagat. But the kaaranatva of Brahman is not by Brahman willing or wishing to create the jagat. Just by Its sannidhi, like magnet, it provides chaitanya to the Maya, iron filings. In puraanic language, Shiva is Purusha, Shakti, is Prakriti. Narayana is Purusha, Lakshmi is Maya shakti. Shakti cannot do anything without the chaitanya coming from the Purusha. Within the smaller circle, the srishti, stithi, pralaya, keeps going on. The bigger circle, Brahman is never affected by this. It just, by its mere presence, is the Substratum of this vyaapaara. It is thus, the vivartopaadaana kaarana for the jagat, the maayic jagat being just an appearance on the screen of Brahman. When the maayic nature is realized by the jiva who is within the smaller circle, he immediately realizes that there is no smaller circle at all and he is himself all the bigger circle, Brahman. There is nothing to limit him any longer. This is moksha for him. Since the point has been made, at this last level, there is no need to call Brahman as the bigger circle!! A note for Sri Yesupadam. The shevtashvatara mantra quoted means that the Parabrahman does not have a kaaryam = body and karanam (not kaaranam) = mind. _ Trust this clarifies. Pranams, subbu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 >From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. Dear Sri Subramanian, Your statement Viz. " Advaita accepts two upadana kaaranams for the universe" is bit difficult to swallow. Has Sri Shankara stated like that in his commentaries on prasthanatraya? With 35 years of study of the commentaries, I have not come across with a passage which supports the above statement. It might not have come to my notice. I request you to provide me with the relevant passages from Sri Shankara's commentaries which corraborate the statement. Quotations from other texts are not authoratative and hence not acceptable. Further, the explanation that has been given, is it anuBavAtmaka or a speculation? I am asking this because, I am coming across with such concepts for the first time. There is a beautiful statement: " na hi kiMcidapi avicArya na SraddhAtavyam" and this has been the guideline for me throughout so far. I am sure you, an eminent scholar, will appreciate the spirit in which this is written. with respectful and warm regards, Sreenivas Murthy Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 From; H.N.Sreenivasa murthy Dear Sri Subramanian, The sentence "na hi kiMcidapi avicArya na sradhAtavyam '" in my previous posting dated 12th August,should be read as " na hi kiMchidapi avicArya SraddhAtavyaM yAthAtathyEna tattvaM nirdidhArayiShuNA". The error is regretted. Thanking you, With regards, Sreenivasa Murthy sreenivasa murthy <narayana145 (AT) (DOT) co.in> wrote: From : H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy Pranams to all. Dear Sri Subramanian, Your statement Viz. " Advaita accepts two upadana kaaranams for the universe" is bit difficult to swallow. Has Sri Shankara stated like that in his commentaries on prasthanatraya? With 35 years of study of the commentaries, I have not come across with a passage which supports the above statement. It might not have come to my notice. I request you to provide me with the relevant passages from Sri Shankara's commentaries which corraborate the statement. Quotations from other texts are not authoratative and hence not acceptable. Further, the explanation that has been given, is it anuBavAtmaka or a speculation? I am asking this because, I am coming across with such concepts for the first time. There is a beautiful statement: " na hi kiMcidapi avicArya na SraddhAtavyam" and this has been the guideline for me throughout so far. I am sure you, an eminent scholar, will appreciate the spirit in which this is written. with respectful and warm regards, Sreenivas Murthy Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Answers Send FREE SMS to your friend's mobile from Messenger Version 8. Get it NOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Namaste Subbuji, "There is this sentence: `itihAsa-purANAbhyAm vedopbrumhayet' meaning that the itihasas (like the Ramayana and Mahabharata) and the purAnas (like the ShrimadBhAgavata) serve the purpose of a commentary to the Veda by expounding the Vedic teaching. The idea is that what is contained in the Veda, the teaching for the upliftment of man in all spheres and finally, enlightenment, is given out by the epics in a more easily understandable form. There are illustrations through stories, incidents, etc. that make the grasp of the Vedic teaching much more appealing." I salute you for this explanation. It's encouraging to read this post That one can also see Bhagavatam as Vedanta ia very comforting. I have found that students who take to ths study of vedanta look down upon the Puranas and ItihAsas and other texts. Once they take to the study of vedanta, the other teachers, who are teaching the Puranas and the Epics are looked down upon. Not every one is ready to study/understand the upanishads and the BrahmasUtra or the bhashyas. I began the study of Upanishads at the age of 48. At least the Puranas and ItihAsas do prepare people for the vaidika mArga. They become believers of Vedas and AstikAs. So may be sometime in their lifetime, they may take to deeper studies of the scriptural texts . It is not a ruled out possibility. For a child studying in the tenth class, degree portions of subjects cannot be thrusted upon. It is a lifetime process of maturing. Even the folklore and folksongs have depply imbedded vedantic truths in them. There is a kannada folk song: devaru devaru ennutAne kallige pujeya mAduttAne. nijavAda devanu bandare devvandu bedaruttane.. hanuma hanuma ennutAne hanumana puje mAduttane nijavAda hanuma bandare koti endu nageyuttane.. naga naga ennuttAne nAgana kallige pUjisuttane nijavAda naga bandare kallininda kolluttAne.. ganapa ganapa ennuttAne ganapana pUjeya mAduttAne nijavAda gaNapanu bandare ane yendu kuNiyuttAne. nR^isimha nR^isimha ennuttane, nR^isimhana pujeya maduttAne nijavAda nR6isimha bandare simhakke bedari oDuttAne.. There are a few more lines and I am not able to recall. sarvam khalu idam brahma - is the teaching of this song. Every animal should remind us of some diety, BhagavAn. All our gods have an animal as a vAhana. May be it is symbolically represented to teach us the truth of sarvaM khalu idam brahma. Thanks for the Bhagavtam link. om namo narayanaya Lakshmi Muthuswamy Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Mail Beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu wrote: > > Namaste Subbuji, > > "There is this sentence: `itihAsa-purANAbhyAm vedopbrumhayet' meaning > that the itihasas (like the Ramayana and Mahabharata) and the purAnas > (like the ShrimadBhAgavata) serve the purpose of a commentary to the > Veda by expounding the Vedic teaching. The idea is that what is > contained in the Veda, the teaching for the upliftment of man in all > spheres and finally, enlightenment, is given out by the epics in a > more easily understandable form. There are illustrations through > stories, incidents, etc. that make the grasp of the Vedic teaching > much more appealing." > I salute you for this explanation. > It's encouraging to read this post That one can also see Bhagavatam as Vedanta ia very comforting. Namaste Lakshmi-ji Please also have a look at http://www.geocities.com/profvk/VK2/Bhagavatam_Introduction.html entitled Bhagavatam and advaita bhakti and the succeeding pages. PraNAms to all advaitin devotees profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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