Aparoksha jnanam

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

Namaste Shyam ji,

" Although it may appear superficial, it would be of benefit to add

that the ` sa-pratibandhaka' (with-obstruction) aparoksha Jnanam

(direct knowledge) does not confer liberation. The reason is simple:

the obstruction/s persist/s. These could be of the form of

misapprehension, non-apprehension or doubt, as the above bhashya

mentions. Unless the specific obstruction goes, the knowledge had

will not result in the fruit of liberation. Even if a person has had

the obstructed `direct knowledge', if death precedes the actual

destruction of avidya, the person is not freed from rebirth.

 

Namaste Subbuji

While reading your response it occurred to me how disorganized my

questions were. Thank you for your patient answers.

 

The original question raised by Smt Durga-ji had to do with a Ishwara

"experience" post-death for a jnani.

 

The stages for attainment of moksha consist of

 

shravana

manana

nidhityasana <--> parokhsa jnanam

then

aparoksha jnanam

 

With regards to the status of a person with sa-pratibandhika aproksha

jnanam - the 2 terms would seem to confer a contradictory status

Jnanam will remain paroksha as long as there are obstructions.

If obstructions are gone, then that alone can be the definition of

aparoksha jnanam

 

I refer to some verses from

Vakya Vritti

 

49. "Until the direct personal experience of `I am Brahman' is gained,

we must live values of self-control, etc., and practice listening to

teachers, or reading scriptures, and doing daily reflection and

meditation upon those ideas."

 

Paroksha jnanam is talked in the above verse.

 

50. "Through the grace of a spiritual teacher when a seeker gains a

clear and direct knowledge of the Supreme Self as expounded in the

scriptures, he, the realised, becomes free from all `ignorance', which

is the foundation for the entire experience of this world of plurality."

 

51. "No more conditioned by his gross and subtle bodies, free from the

embrace of the gross and subtle elements, released from the charm of

actions, such a man gets immediately liberated."

 

Aparoksha jnanam is talked about in the above 2 verses.

No additional qualifications are mentioned.

 

52. "The liberated-in-life, due to the compelling force of those

actions that have begun to produce their results (Prarabdha), remains

for some time to exhaust them".

 

53. "The liberated-in-life comes to gain the State of Absolute

Oneness, the never-ending immeasurable Bliss, called the Supreme

Abode-of-Vishnu, from wherein there is no return."

 

This is jivanmukti.

 

With regards to the word vritti it is a mental modification not

necessarily meaning an "experience".

When i see a pot then my cognition of the pot involves two steps as

has been so beautifully pointed out by you.

One step involves the mind "enveloping" as it were the pot -

vrttivyapti. This removes the avarana that envelops the pot. There is

(reflected) consciousness associated with the Vritti, which

illuminates the object 'pot' This result is termed Phala-vyapti - I

know the pot.

Applying the same process to selfknowledge, I should "cognize" the

self as myself. This will amount to self-realization, but would that

constitute an "experience" - a anubhava? I cannot help note the words

used are typically "bodha" which to my limited Sanskrit repertoire

would suggest knowledge and not experience and vrtti - mental

modification.

 

Also wanted to refer to these verses from

Vedanta Saara

 

171. When the teacher in this way clears the meaning of the words

"That" and "Thou" by the removal of superimpositions, and makes the

qualified student grasp the import of the sentence, "Thou art That",

which is Absolute Unity, there arises in his mind a state of Absolute

Oneness in which he feels that he is Brahman, by nature eternal, pure,

self-illumined, free, real, supremely blissful, infinite and one

without a second.

 

172. That mental state, illumined by the reflection of Pure

Consciousness, objectifies the Supreme Brahman, unknown but identical

with the individual self and destroys the ignorance pertaining to

Brahman. Then just as a cloth is burnt when the threads composing it

are burnt, so all the effects of ignorance are destroyed when their

cause, viz., ignorance, is destroyed. Hence the mental state of

Absolute Oneness, which forms part of those effects, is also destroyed.

 

173. As the light of a lamp cannot illumine the lustre of the sun but

is overpowered by it, so Consciousness reflected in that state of the

mind is unable to illumine the Supreme Brahman, self-effulgent and

identical with the individual self, and is overpowered by it. And on

the destruction of this state of Absolute Oneness with which that

Consciousness is associated there remains only the Supreme Brahman,

identical with the individual self, just as the image of a face in a

looking-glass is resolved into the face itself when the looking-glass

is removed.

 

This would again suggest that the reflected consciousness that is the

very basis for a vrtti formation itself is "overpowered" or destroyed

when it directly "cognizes" the Brahman as its own self.

 

174. Such being the case, there is no contradiction between the

following Sruti passages: "By the mind alone It is to be perceived"

(Br. Up. IV-4-19), and "That which cannot be thought of by the mind"

(Kena Up. I-5). We are to suppose that the unknown Brahman is brought

into contact with only the mental state, but not with the underlying

Consciousness.

 

175. Thus it has been said: "The authors of the scriptures have

refuted the idea that the individual Consciousness can manifest the

Brahman. But they admit that the Brahman associated with ignorance is

brought into contact with the mental states only for the purpose of

dispelling ignorance regarding It" (Panchadasi VI-90).

 

176. And: "Brahman, being self-luminous, does not depend on the

individual Consciousness for Its illumination" Panchadasi VI-92).

 

177. But there is a difference when the mental state assumes the form

of material objects...

 

My intellectual understanding of an experience is something different

from that of knowledge. An experience would suggest some kind of

transcedental mystic state which may differ qualitatively from one

person to another and which may perhaps have gradation of quality,

thereby opening the door to further refinements in experiencing after

death, etc etc Knowledge on the other hand is totally objective, with

no subjectivity involved.

Should a transcendental "experience" be the litmus test to decide if a

jnani has aparoksha jnanam?

I am not sure.

Certainly based on the shruti references you have so kindly and

patiently provided it certainly may seem to the case.

 

My sincere pranams

Shri Gurubhyoh namah

 

Shyam

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

>

> advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v@>

> wrote:

> Namaste Subbuji

>The original question raised by Smt Durga-ji had to do with a Ishwara

> "experience" post-death for a jnani.

 

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste Shyam ji,

Many thanks for this response. The above question of Smt.Durga ji,

although not in a direct way, was taken to have been answered.

Ishwara experience post-death for a jnani is not found in the

scriptures. In fact, even the concept of 'post-death' itself is not

proper in Advaita. There is liberation the moment the chidachit

granthi is snapped by direct realization. In various places it has

been clarified that even the 'life until the body falls' in respect

of a Jnani is only by means of a concession, just to answer the doubt

of the not-very-well-informed persons regarding the body that is seen

to persist after the Jnanam has dawned. The vivekachudamani says

this.

>

> The stages for attainment of moksha consist of

>

> shravana

> manana

> nidhityasana <--> parokhsa jnanam

> then

> aparoksha jnanam

>

> With regards to the status of a person with sa-pratibandhika

aproksha

> jnanam - the 2 terms would seem to confer a contradictory status

> Jnanam will remain paroksha as long as there are obstructions.

> If obstructions are gone, then that alone can be the definition of

> aparoksha jnanam

 

True. I have heard Swami Paramarthananda Saraswati in the

Panchadashi lecture series saying that such a term is just a

concession. After shastra-shravanam a person comes to the firm

conclusion about the Truth that Brahman alone is absolute. In this

matter he does not have any doubt. This much is appreciated and

termed 'aproksha jnanam'. But since this has not produced the effect

of destroying Avidya and rendering him free from rebirth, there is

the obstruction that has to be mentioned. The Panchadashi clarifies

that:

 

Aparoksha-Atma vijnanam shaabdam deshika-purvakam

samsaara-kaarana-ajnanam kritsnam dahati vahni vat

 

(The Direct Realization that is had based upon the scriptural

teaching through the Guru burns down the ignorance (along with its

effects) that is the cause of samsaara (include re-birth) like fire.)

 

>

> I refer to some verses from

> Vakya Vritti

>

> 49. "Until the direct personal experience of `I am Brahman' is

gained,

> we must live values of self-control, etc., and practice listening to

> teachers, or reading scriptures, and doing daily reflection and

> meditation upon those ideas."

>

> Paroksha jnanam is talked in the above verse.

>

> 50. "Through the grace of a spiritual teacher when a seeker gains a

> clear and direct knowledge of the Supreme Self as expounded in the

> scriptures, he, the realised, becomes free from all `ignorance',

which

> is the foundation for the entire experience of this world of

plurality."

>

> 51. "No more conditioned by his gross and subtle bodies, free from

the

> embrace of the gross and subtle elements, released from the charm of

> actions, such a man gets immediately liberated."

>

> Aparoksha jnanam is talked about in the above 2 verses.

> No additional qualifications are mentioned.

 

Shyam ji, since we are trying to clear the thin wall of difference

between whether a jnanaakaara vritti is an experience or not, we may

have to look into some specific terms here and there. For example,

see the words 'direct personal experience', 'clear and direct

knowledge'and 'immediately liberated' in the three verses above.

The 'immediately liberated' will have meaning only when the 'direct

personal experience is an abrupt one. If it is a gradual arriving at

an understanding, the 'immediately getting liberated' would have no

meaning. Even if it is a gradual understanding, there has to be

accepted a particular moment that culminates in the understanding

destroying avidya and bringing about an immediate liberation. It is

this experience that has been talked about in the Taittiriya for

example as 'Etat Saama gaayan aaste..aham annam...'etc. and the

Vivekachudamani concluding verses that we saw in the earlier post of

mine.

>

> 52. "The liberated-in-life, due to the compelling force of those

> actions that have begun to produce their results (Prarabdha),

remains

> for some time to exhaust them".

>

> 53. "The liberated-in-life comes to gain the State of Absolute

> Oneness, the never-ending immeasurable Bliss, called the Supreme

> Abode-of-Vishnu, from wherein there is no return."

>

> This is jivanmukti.

>

> With regards to the word vritti it is a mental modification not

> necessarily meaning an "experience".

> When i see a pot then my cognition of the pot involves two steps as

> has been so beautifully pointed out by you.

> One step involves the mind "enveloping" as it were the pot -

> vrttivyapti. This removes the avarana that envelops the pot. There

is

> (reflected) consciousness associated with the Vritti, which

> illuminates the object 'pot' This result is termed Phala-vyapti - I

> know the pot.

> Applying the same process to selfknowledge, I should "cognize" the

> self as myself. This will amount to self-realization, but would that

> constitute an "experience" - a anubhava? I cannot help note the

words

> used are typically "bodha" which to my limited Sanskrit repertoire

> would suggest knowledge and not experience and vrtti - mental

> modification.

 

Shyam ji,

As students of Vedanta, having done shravanam and sufficient mananam,

it is definitely possible for us to say that a grasp of the true,

pure, nature of the Atman/Brahman has been gained by us (in all

humility). But when we ask ourselves the question: Do i feel

liberated? Am I experiencing the prapancha, right from the ego

onwards to the gross objects of the expansive world as mithya? Can I

claim to be freed from birth/death? Have all doubts pertaining to

Atman/Brahman vanished? etc., i would definitely say that no positive

answers are forthcoming from my inmost being. That clearly shows

that despite a clear understanding of the scriptural teaching,

experientially the kevala brahma bhaava has not come. That means

there has been a 'vritti' about Atma (as Smt.Durga ji said, it is

akhandaakaara vritti) but this vritti has not accomplished its fruit

of burning down avidya and launching me in Mukti/Moksha. There is

this difference between 'intellectual understanding' (paroksha

jnanam) and experience, aparoksha jnanam.

 

 

> Also wanted to refer to these verses from

> Vedanta Saara

>

> 171. When the teacher in this way clears the meaning of the words

> "That" and "Thou" by the removal of superimpositions, and makes the

> qualified student grasp the import of the sentence, "Thou art That",

> which is Absolute Unity, there arises in his mind a state of

Absolute

> Oneness in which he feels that he is Brahman, by nature eternal,

pure,

> self-illumined, free, real, supremely blissful, infinite and one

> without a second.

>

> 172. That mental state, illumined by the reflection of Pure

> Consciousness, objectifies the Supreme Brahman, unknown but

identical

> with the individual self and destroys the ignorance pertaining to

> Brahman. Then just as a cloth is burnt when the threads composing it

> are burnt, so all the effects of ignorance are destroyed when their

> cause, viz., ignorance, is destroyed. Hence the mental state of

> Absolute Oneness, which forms part of those effects, is also

destroyed.

>

> 173. As the light of a lamp cannot illumine the lustre of the sun

but

> is overpowered by it, so Consciousness reflected in that state of

the

> mind is unable to illumine the Supreme Brahman, self-effulgent and

> identical with the individual self, and is overpowered by it. And on

> the destruction of this state of Absolute Oneness with which that

> Consciousness is associated there remains only the Supreme Brahman,

> identical with the individual self, just as the image of a face in a

> looking-glass is resolved into the face itself when the looking-

glass

> is removed.

>

> This would again suggest that the reflected consciousness that is

the very basis for a vrtti formation itself is "overpowered" or

destroyed when it directly "cognizes" the Brahman as its own self.

 

True are your words. This is what i opine is the 'subsiding of the

akhandaakaara vritti after it arises abruptly and has destroyed

avidya. Someone some time ago in this List gave a beautiful example

of 'my looking up and seeing the noon-day Sun and instantly closing

my eyes unable to withstand the effulgence'.

 

 

> 174. Such being the case, there is no contradiction between the

> following Sruti passages: "By the mind alone It is to be perceived"

> (Br. Up. IV-4-19), and "That which cannot be thought of by the mind"

> (Kena Up. I-5). We are to suppose that the unknown Brahman is

brought into contact with only the mental state, but not with the

underlying Consciousness.

 

Yes. Why should the Kathopanishad prescribe 'tat pratipattyupaayam

yogam' (the yoga required to apprehend the Atman) in the

mantra 'yacched vaang manasii praajnaH..'(i.3.13) and the

Mundakopanishat 'pranavo dhanuH..'. ? There is the process of intense

focusing the mind on the Atman alone to the exclusion of everything

else, based on the prior hearing of the scriptures. It is to enable

the apprehension of the Atman in all its pristine purity and

accomplish liberation that this exercise is prescribed. It is the

stage of nididhyasanam which when done for a sufficiently long period

that results in this direct realization. To have had a 'aatma

vritti' is quite common for a sadhaka. But for it to accomplish the

result of liberation, it takes a special mode.

>

> 175. Thus it has been said: "The authors of the scriptures have

> refuted the idea that the individual Consciousness can manifest the

> Brahman. But they admit that the Brahman associated with ignorance

is

> brought into contact with the mental states only for the purpose of

> dispelling ignorance regarding It" (Panchadasi VI-90).

>

> 176. And: "Brahman, being self-luminous, does not depend on the

> individual Consciousness for Its illumination" Panchadasi VI-92).

>

> 177. But there is a difference when the mental state assumes the

form

> of material objects...

>

> My intellectual understanding of an experience is something

different from that of knowledge. An experience would suggest some

kind of transcedental mystic state which may differ qualitatively

from one person to another and which may perhaps have gradation of

quality, thereby opening the door to further refinements in

experiencing after death, etc etc Knowledge on the other hand is

totally objective, with no subjectivity involved.

 

Shyam, why should it be so? In the case of appreciating a particular

song rendering, there is the possibility of subjective intervention

depending upon the hearing ability, prior knowledge of the music

shastra, etc..several parameters have a play here. But the Atma

anubhava that the Sruti teaches is decidedly free from any of the

subjective forces. The very teaching is clear about the aspirant

warding off all subjective parameters like all proclivities of the

mind and sense organs. For example the Kathopanishad teaches: 'yadaa

pancha avtishthante jnaanaani manasaa saha...taam yogam iti manyante

sthiraam indriya dhaaranaam'. The mind should be free from every

interference of any of the sense organs, their objects, the mind

faculty of desiring, etc. the intellect faculty of deciding, etc;

doubting, etc. It is the responsibility of the aspirant to arrive at

such a state to be able to grasp the Atman in its purest form. That

is why yama, niyama etc. are all undertaken. This will ensure

aspirant A and B although both coming from different backgrounds,

samskaras, etc. apprehending the Atman in the same manner. It is

like science, in a way. The laws are repeatable in any place in any

circumstances, provided the conditions necessary are met. Thus, with

the condition of freeing the mind from all subjective forces being

fulfilled, why can't the Atman be apprehended by every aspirant in

the same manner? In fact there are several Upanishads. There are

several teachers in the Upanishads. All the Jnanis who have

succeeded in attaining the Jnanam have studied these upanishads and

attained the final goal. They are teaching it to others. We do not

find any difference in the nature of Atman taught by these teachers.

This leads us to conclude that they have all attained the direct

experience of the Atman in the same way, as the same Atman.

 

Shyam, let me quote from a sentence from the Gita bhashyam:

verse 7.2: for the word vijnaanam the Acharya says: sva-anubhava-

yuktam.= vijnanam is (jnanam with)the personal experience.

 

 

> Should a transcendental "experience" be the litmus test to decide

if a jnani has aparoksha jnanam?

> I am not sure.

> Certainly based on the shruti references you have so kindly and

> patiently provided it certainly may seem to the case.

>

> My sincere pranams

> Shri Gurubhyoh namah

>

> Shyam

>

I think from the various upanishadic statements, we arrive at the

conclusion that only he who has had the anubhuti is called a Jnani.

 

To me here is the ultimate proof of this:

In the Srimukham (benedictory preface) to the book

Sridakshinamurtistotram authored by my revered Guru Sri Subbaramaiya,

the then Acharya of Sringeri Sharada Peetham, Jagadguru Sri Abhinava

Vidyateertha Swamigal, an unparallelled Yogi and Jnani par excellence

wrote this:

 

'asmad aachaarya-paadaanam kripaa-paatrataam prapadya teshaam

aadeshaanusaaram vidvadvarebhyaH sampradaaya-anusaaram vedanta-

shastram adhiitya ANUBHUUTIM CHA SAMPAADYA Atmaanam dhanyam

vitatavanto bhavantaH....'

 

This means: Fortunate indeed are you who have rendered yourself

worthy of the benign grace of our Acharyapada (reference is here to

Sri Chandrashekhara Bharati Swamigal, the 34th Jagadguru), studied,

in obedience to His command, the Vedantashastras according to

sampradaya under eminent vidvans and HAVE SECURED THE PLENARY

EXPERIENCE as well....'

 

Who else other than one who has had the anubhuti can openly declare

that someone else has had such anubhuti?

 

With humble pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

The Panchadashi clarifies

> that:

>

> Aparoksha-Atma vijnanam shaabdam deshika-purvakam

> samsaara-kaarana-ajnanam kritsnam dahati vahni vat

>

> (The Direct Realization that is had based upon the scriptural

> teaching through the Guru burns down the ignorance (along with its

> effects) that is the cause of samsaara (include re-birth) like

fire.)

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste,

 

There was a mix-up while rendering the above sloka. The second half

should read:

 

samsaara-kaarana-ajnana-tamasaH chaNDa-bhAskaraH

(The Diret Realization that is ..............through the Guru is a

fierce Sun in relation to the darkness of ignorance, the cause of the

cycles of births and deaths.)

 

The mix-up was caused by confusing the fourth quarter of this verse

with the earlier verse. A clear case of superimposing one thing in

the place of another !! These two verses on paroksha jnanam and

aparoksha jnanam constitute the 63rd and 64th verses of the I chapter

of the Panchadashi. The error is regretted.

 

Is there any book on Panchadashi containing a sloka-beginning-word

index? It would be of much use to me.

 

Regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

[Guest guest]

Is there any book on Panchadashi containing a sloka-beginning-word

index? It would be of much use to me.

 

Namste Subbuji,

Pancadashi

Ramakrishna Mutt Publication

Translation by Swami Swahananda

Introduction by t m p Mahadevan

Shloka beginning Index is availabe arranges alphabetically

We have been using this book for study with Swami Paramarthaji. he recommends this book

om namo narayanaya

lakshmi Muthuswmay

 

 

 

Get on board. You're invited to try the new Mail Beta.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Lakshmi Muthuswamy <lakmuthu

wrote:

> Namste Subbuji,

>

> Pancadashi, >

> Ramakrishna Mutt Publication

> Translation by Swami Swahananda>

> Introduction by t m p Mahadevan>

> Shloka beginning Index is availabe arranges alphabetically

 

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste,

 

Thank you, Madam, for the above information.

 

Regards,

subbu

Om Tat Sat