SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA

August 21, 2006

Srigurubhyo NamaH

A general introduction:

Namaste Sadhakas,

This is just a small start to a discussion feature on the above

topic. A request to those who intend posting on this topic is, pl.

make the discussion as focused on the idea of 'Self' as possible.

Also, kindly remember to maintain the above topic heading; this will

help keeping the entire discussion that would emerge out of this

topic under one thread, helping future identification and reference.

Please enrich the discussion with great thoughts.

HariH Om

Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaaya

The Bhagavadgita is Moksha Shastra. It is a practical guide to an

aspirant who is desirous of attaining to the Supreme Purushartha,

Moksha. As it turns out, the Gita is such a versatile Teacher, that

it has teachings relevant to all types of aspirants, at whatever

level of this human journey they might be.

The Gita traces a basic human psychology: Man cannot remain without

acting. He is compelled by the natural forces, gunas born out of

prakriti, to keep on doing something or the other.

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishThatyakarma-krt

Kaaryate hyavashaH karma sarvaH prakrtijair-guNaiH (III.5)

Now, this bottom line given, let us dwell a little on this psychology.

It is said whatever a being does, it is impelled by desire:

Yadyaddhi kurute jantuH tattat kaamasya cheShTitam

Thus, we see desire is the underlying force that propels man to act.

This again has another fundamental basis: The Brihadaranyaka

Upanishad says:

ajnaH kaamayate, kaamayaanaH karma kurute

It is an ignorant man that desires, and he who desires engages in

action.

Again, we see here another layer of the basis for ignorance. What is

this ignorance, of what? The shastras point out that it is the

ignorance of one's True Self. It is because one does not know what

he is in truth, one thinks that he is wanting in something or the

other. This the shastra terms `apUrNatva'. It is the innate desire

of man to be pUrNa. This is because his true nature is pUrNatva. Not

knowing that his natural state is one of Fullness, he seeks to make

himself full. This expresses itself in the form of seeking something

outside of himself to fulfill his desire to become full. Conversely,

he seeks to acquire something to fill up the want. Once this desire

comes up to `complete' himself, he thinks of an object that can

satisfy this want. Next, as that object is outside of him, he has

to `reach' it in order to make it his `own'. This reaching involves

action. In order to acquire it, he has to `pay' a price. Nothing is

available free. What is oneself alone is freely available. The

moment something outside of oneself is recognized to exist, that

object gets a price-tag. Seeing the price, man weighs the pros and

cons that would have a bearing on his `capacity'. When he sees he is

not capable of paying the price, he seeks to acquire the capacity.

This involves work. Thus, we have a situation where there is `kama',

desire for something, and that it involves `artha' to posses it and

fulfill the kama.

Man's actions center around desiring, working, acquiring,

fulfillment. But this is a cycle. The Panchadasi (I.30) portrays

this in an illustrative way:

kurvate karma bhogaaya, karma kartum cha bhunjate

nadyAm keeTaa iva Avartaat AvartAntaram Ashu te

vrajanto janmano janma labhante naiva nirvrtim

In order to enjoy an object, people engage in work; and in order to

engage in work, people enjoy objects. For, work requires inputs like

strength, and other resources. In order to acquire these one has to

eat, clothe, live in comfort, etc. Desire entails work and work

entails consumption. This vicious cycle does not end at all. Such

people can be compared to a worm that is amidst an eddy. As the

river flows, the worm gets into another eddy and another and so on.

There is no relief for the worm from out of the eddy.

The Gita sees man in such a pathetic condition and comes forward to

give him relief, a permanent relief from this painful existence. It

has to show him that he is pUrNa by nature and does not need anything

outside of him to be Full and Happy. This will require an about-turn

for man to accomplish. To make this happen all of a sudden will be

counterproductive. So, a graded journey is taught by the

compassionate Mother. There is a popular dhyana shloka for Gita:

advaita-amrta-varShiNiim bhagavatiim ashTaadasha-adhyAyinIm

amba ! tvAm anusandhadAmi bhagavad-giite bhava-dveShiNim

O Mother Bhagavad Gita ! You are of the nature of raining the nectar

of Advaita through your eighteen chapters. I devoutly contemplate on

your redeeming teachings. For, are you not the foe of this painful

samsara?

To accomplish the end of taking us back to our True nature of

PurNatva, the Gita teaches that first and foremost our `instinct' for

ceaseless activity has to be given a new orientation. Instead of

reckless activity to fulfill desires, it teaches that man has to take

a look at a sobering medicine and that it calls Dharma. If only we

give a place to Dharma in our life, the entire direction of our mad

rush into activity will get a salutary turn. Someone very

intelligently said that the whole of the teaching of the Gita can be

found in a capsule form in the very first two compound words of the

Gita:

Dharma-kshetre kuru-kshetre

The pithy teaching is: kshetre kshetre dharma kuru

This means: In every field of activity, adhere to Dharma. Whatever

you do, let that be Dharmic. The Veda says: DharmeNa paapam

apanudati. By the practice of Dharma, a person washes off his sins.

So, from kaama-driven karma, one graduates to dharma-driven karma.

The artha, wealth, means, that he earns now gets a new purpose. He

earns for performing dharma. There is a saying: Dharmaat arthashcha

kaamashcha. Desire has to be fulfilled with Dharma as the basis.

Wealth has to be earned with Dharma as the basis. The Gita teaches

in the Third chapter:

Devaan bhAvayata anena te devaa bhAvayantu vaH

Let your every action be a yajna. Through that yajna offer oblations

to the devas, divinity. In return, those devas will give you what

you desire.

This scheme is loftier than living a life of meaningless

adventure. But then, the aim of the Gita is not to end here. It has

the Supreme Goal of taking man to his native Purnatvam. Bhagavan,

the Gita-acharya, the paripUrNa Brahman, wants to show man that his

quest for fulfillment will consummate only when he knows his

paripUrNa nature. As this end is far away for man from where he is

now placed, the Lord gives him another platform, resting upon which

he can work out the journey to the goal of unhampered Fullness. We

shall see that in the sequel.

Krishnaaya tubhyam namaH

(to be continued)

Om Tat Sat

August 21, 2006

Namaste Sadhakas:

The moderators of this list want to congratulate the discussion

leader Sri Subramaniam (Subbuji) for his excellent introduction.

Subbuji will lead this Satsangh on Bhagavad Gita and Sri Shyam will

be the co-leader. During the past several weeks, both Subbuji and

Shyamji are the most active participants of the list discussions and

moderators want to congratulate both of them for volunteering to lead

this important topic.

The list moderators want to reinforce the statements from Subbuji on

posting guidelines:

Those who intend posting on this topic are advised to focus on the

idea of Self as much as possible.

Please do not take the topic ending and any sub-branch of this main

topic will be initiated by Subbuji.

Take little more time to contemplate and organize your thoughts

coherently before posting.

Allow everyone to participate and contribute and express alternative

view points.

This Gita Satsangh will continue for the rest of this year or until

we get exhausted. All senior members of the list are requested to

participate and enrich the discussions with their contributions.

Om Tat Sat

Advaitin List Moderators

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

> SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA

>

> A general introduction:

>

> Namaste Sadhakas,

> This is just a small start to a discussion feature on the above

> topic. A request to those who intend posting on this topic is, pl.

> make the discussion as focused on the idea of 'Self' as possible.

> Also, kindly remember to maintain the above topic heading; this

will

> help keeping the entire discussion that would emerge out of this

> topic under one thread, helping future identification and

reference.

> Please enrich the discussion with great thoughts.

>

> HariH Om

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaaya

>

> The Bhagavadgita is Moksha Shastra. It is a practical guide to an

> aspirant who is desirous of attaining to the Supreme Purushartha,

> Moksha. As it turns out, the Gita is such a versatile Teacher,

that

> it has teachings relevant to all types of aspirants, at whatever

> level of this human journey they might be.

August 22, 2006

Namaste:

Swami Chinmayananda strongly believed that the manual of Bhagavad

Gita can unfold the Self from body, mind and intellect. He explained

this in the book with the title, "Self-unfoldment," published by the

Chinmaya Mission. This book can greatly help us to read and

understand Bhagavad Gita with the right perspective. Our fellow

moderator, Sadanandaji used to lead a Satsang in Northern Virginia

using this book. The Satsangh was in Study Group format (Typically

Chinmaya Mission study groups weekly meets and every member prepares

and summarize few pages from the text, followed by a group

discussion. Gurudev Swami Chinmayananda during his Gita discourses

always used the BMI chart (http://www.chinmayadc.org/BMI.htm) to

explain the importance of focusing on the real. He was able to grasp

what Lord Krishna conveyed to Arjuna and articulate his understanding

to the common people using examples and jokes. Profvk in his homepage

at geocities provides a chart on Advaitic cosmology to explain Tat

tvam asi (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/LHGWchart1.html).

Familiarity with the above mentioned works can help the members to

read and understand Gita with the right focus.

The Hindu Scripture Bhagavad Gita unifies the currents of flow of the

religious and philosophical thoughts of sages and saints of India.

Gita has been recognized for centuries as an orthodox scripture of

the Hindu religion possessing equal authority with the Upanishads and

the Brahma Sutra. These three together form the triple canon

(prasthaana-traya). Three stalwart teachers of Vedanta - Sankara,

Ramanuja and Madhava have justified their doctrines through their

commentaries to Gita, Upanishads and Brahama Sutra. The commentaries

of Gita by these great teachers can help us to understand the Vedanta

Philosophy in general and Advaita in particular. Plural thoughts

always originate in the beginning and with contemplation they have

potential to for their convergence.

The following two verses from chapter 2 (verses 16 and 17) are

provided to illustrate how Sankaracharya, Ramanjacharya, and

Madhvacharya interpreted these verses. For advaitins with strong

conviction on Sankara's commentary, his interpretation will be more

appealing.

Chapter 2: Yoga of Knowledge (Verses 16 & 17)

Translations of the Verses are from Dr.Radhakrishnan's "The Bhagavad

Gita."

naa sato vidyate bhaavo naa bhavo vidyate satah (Verse 16)

ubhayor api drsto `ntas tv anayos tattvadars'ibhih

Of the non-existent there is no coming to be; of the existent there

is no ceasing to be. The conclusion about these two has been

perceived by the seers of Truth.

avinaasi tu tad viddhu yena sarvam idam tatam (Verse 17)

vinaasam avyayasya `sya na kas'cit kartum arhati

Know thou that by which all this is pervaded is indestructible. Of

this immutable being, no one can bring about the destruction.

Sankara distinguishes real (sat) and unreal (asat) by the following:

The non failure of consciousness is sat and its failure is asat! The

consciousness of the objects varies but not the existence of the

consciousness! The unreal which is the passing show of the world,

blurs the unchanging reality which is forever manifest. Not even

Iswara, the Supreme Lord can cause the destruction of the Self and

its reality is self-established (svatassiddha). The scriptures serve

to remove the adhyaaropana or superposition of the attributes alien

to the SELF.

Ramanuja identifies unreal as the body and real as the soul. Ramanuja

also infers qualitative unity and equality in the presence of

numerical plurality of souls! (Philosophy of Vishistadvaita)

Madhava asserts that the first part of this verse shows the presence

of duality! According to Sanskrit grammatical structure, "Vidyate

bhaavo" and "Vidyate-abhaavah" are both valid expressions and Madhava

interprets as Vidyate-abhaavah and asserts duality. There is no

destruction of the un-manifest (avyakta) prakriti. Sat of course is

indestructible. (Dwaita Philosophy)

Now let us get back to our main task of unfolding the Self and to

achieve this, we should fold our body, mind and intellect. In Gita

verses 59 to 61, Lord Krishna tells Arjuna how this can be

accomplished.

visaya vinivartante niraharasya dehinah

rasa-varjam raso 'py asya param drstva nivartate

The objects of the senses turn away from the abstinent man, leaving

the longing behind: but this longing also turns away on seeing the

supreme.

yatato hy api kaunteya purusasya vipascitah

indriyani pramathini haranti prasabham manah

The turbulent senses, 0h Arjuna, violently carry away the mind of a

wise man though he be striving to control them.

tani sarvani samyamya yukta asita mat-parah

vase hi yasyendriyani tasya prajna pratisthita

Having restrained them all, he should sit steadfast, intent on me.

His wisdom is steady whose senses are under control.

Verses fifty-nine to sixty-one elaborate the dangers of going after

external objects for internal pleasure. Gamblers, smokers, drinkers

find it hard to quit their habits. Our problem is not the object but

the taste (vasanas) that we have developed through our senses for the

objects! The evolution of the desire for the objects originates when

the tastes for the objects enter into the mind. When the mind

meditates on the "SUPREME," even the tastes for the objects, will

disappear! Gita reinforces the importance of the control over the

mind and senses for removing the desires. When senses are left loose,

they propel the mind to go after the objects and controlling the mind

becomes more difficult. The floating mind remembers the tastes of

object and drives the senses toward the objects!

To stop the car on the highway, we have to apply the brakes to all

the wheels! When one of them fails, we can get into serious problems.

Until we close all the doors and windows of the house, we have no way

of heating the house at the desired level! To shut the desires, we

have to close the body, mind and intellect! When the senses are

fully under control, the Perfect sage remains firm in Yoga on the

Supreme.

With my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

August 22, 2006

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste:

>

> Swami Chinmayananda strongly believed that the manual of Bhagavad

> Gita can unfold the Self from body, mind and intellect. He

explained

> this in the book with the title, "Self-unfoldment," published by

the

> Chinmaya Mission. This book can greatly help us to read and

> understand Bhagavad Gita with the right perspective. Our fellow

> moderator, Sadanandaji used to lead a Satsang in Northern Virginia

> using this book. The Satsangh was in Study Group format (Typically

> Chinmaya Mission study groups weekly meets and every member

prepares

> and summarize few pages from the text, followed by a group

> discussion. Gurudev Swami Chinmayananda during his Gita discourses

> always used the BMI chart (http://www.chinmayadc.org/BMI.htm) to

> explain the importance of focusing on the real. He was able to

grasp

> what Lord Krishna conveyed to Arjuna and articulate his

understanding

> to the common people using examples and jokes. Profvk in his

homepage

> at geocities provides a chart on Advaitic cosmology to explain Tat

> tvam asi (http://www.geocities.com/profvk/LHGWchart1.html).

> Familiarity with the above mentioned works can help the members to

> read and understand Gita with the right focus.

>

> The Hindu Scripture Bhagavad Gita unifies the currents of flow of

the

> religious and philosophical thoughts of sages and saints of India.

> Gita has been recognized for centuries as an orthodox scripture of

> the Hindu religion possessing equal authority with the Upanishads

and

> the Brahma Sutra. These three together form the triple canon

> (prasthaana-traya).

Namaste all

The chart LHGW chart 1 does show the tat-tvam-asi part. There is

also another chart, namely, the Self, which is perhaps more in tune

with the topic of this thread. It is in

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/TheSelf.html

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

August 22, 2006

Om Ganaanam Tva Ganapatigum Havamahe

Kavim Kaveenam Upamasravastamam

Jyeshta Raajam Brahmanaam Brahmanaspata

Aana Shrinvannutibhi Seeda Saadanam

Om Shree Mahaa Ganapathaye Namaha

Mookam karoti vachalam pangum langayate girim

Yat krpa tamaham vande paramananda madhavam

I salute Madhava, the souce of Supreme Bliss, whose grace enables a

dumb man to be eloquent and a cripple to cross mountains

Namostu te vyaasa vishaalabuddhe

phullaaravindaa yatapatranetra,

Yena twayaa bhaaratatailapoornah

prajwaalito jnaanamayah pradeepah.

Salutations unto thee, O Vyasa, of immense intellect and with eyes

large like the petals of a full-blown lotus, by whom the lamp of

divine knowledge, filled with the oil of the Mahabharata, has been

lighted!!!

Pranams to all vedantins.

Pranams to subbuji for his wonderful introduction.

The Gita is possibly the only religious or spiritual book in the

entire world, where we have a student wanting to take sannyasa and

we have his teacher asking him to bear arms and wage a deadly war!!

The Gita as Subbu-ji has already described deals with the self that

sees itself as incomplete. In other words it helps me, the person

who sees myself as unacceptable.

I, as I am today, am certainly unacceptable to myself. There is

something I lack, something my mind tells me i need to acquire, and

something that I feel impelled to work towards in order to make

myself more and more acceptable. And yet this seems to be a never

ending process. I acquire a good education - still unacceptable. I

acquire much wealth - still unacceptable. I acquire lots and lots of

wealth - still unacceptable [There is a wonderful story by Tolstoy

about "how much land does a man need" - a greedy Russian peasant

visits the Bashkirs upon hearing that they are practically giving

their land away. They offer him as much land as he wants, provided

he can walk its perimeter in one day. The peasant agrees and goes

out on his trek but when the sun starts to set, he finds that in his

greed he has walked too far. Running back, he collapses at the

starting point just as the sun sets. The Bashkirs try to

congratulate him only to find him dead, and in answer to the

question posed in the title, bury him in hole six feet by two feet!]

To continue, I marry a wonderful spouse, beget wonderful children -

still unacceptable. I am blessed with great health and a long life -

it is still too short- still unacceptable. OK - lets try this - I

give up most of my wealth in charity (since gaining it did not make

me acceptable) - Still unacceptable. Once i realize that nothing and

no one in thie world is ever going to make me acceptable to myself,

I come to the Gita - please, Mother, teach me how to accept myself.

how to find myself complete.

There is another self that the Gita deals with. The complicated self.

Let us do this - close our eyes and say "I am" - dont add any

blessed thing after that - not your name not your degree not your

state of mind nothing - just say "I am". After a second repeat

again.."I am". Somewhere in a nanosecond between those 2 "I am" s

that we just chanted - there is a very simple "I am" - this "I" is

just aware, this I is just conscious, this I is just a witness. The

I we now have is a complicated I - it is the simple I PLUS an

infinitely heavy load -

of what? 2 things - impressions and worries about the past and

anxieties about the future. We are never able to remain in the

present moment - never. Any occurence that happens to us now is

coloured in the light of what happened in the past and is viewed

with an eye to the future. This complicated self never allows the

simple I to be made available for me in the present. It is only the

simple self that can contemplate or conduct any kind of spiritual

enquiry. Forget anything spiritual, even for everyday wordly

transactions, for enjoying something as basic as an icecream, for

focussing my mind at my work or studies, I need a simple nonreacting

self.

For this to happen of course I need to do two things- settle all my

accounts with my past and prevent myself from attaching any anxiety

to my future.Easier said than done? Well that technique is what the

Bhagwad Gita will help us develop.

There is another self that we are most concerned about - the mortal

I. I dont want to die - yet I am going to. There is a story about a

man hanging by the side of the cliff clinging on to a small branch.

There is a rat gnawing at the branch which will cause it to snap.

Worse, there is a crocodile waiting with its jaws open right below

him. He sees a delicious fruit hanging from the branch and desiring

to taste it! This is truly our fate.

The only certain thing in our lives is our mortality. Yet we remain

oblivious to it for the most part. We go through lives trying hard

not to think about it. "It is not something that is going to happen

to me! at least not now!" - would seem to be our absurd line of

thought. Why? Because acknowledging our imminent(be it 6 months or

600 months - it is still relatively imminent) mortality means

acknowledging the emptiness of it all - to what avail are all my

toils? what purpose is served by me hoarding wealth, accomplishing

scholarship, gaining recognition - it is all going to quite

literally go up in flames (or rot in the ground as the case may

be). The Gita helps us look at our own mortality in the eye and

understand our own intrinsic immortality, and in so doing, lends

meaning to our mundane existences.

It ultimately and most importantly goes one final step further and

deals with another I -the antaryami or antaratman - my "innermost"

self - and beautifully shows this to be nonseparate from

the "Paramatman" the Supreme Self or Ishwara and this knowledge

liberates you once and for all.

What a journey it takes you through

truly from asat to sat, from mrtyor to amrtam, from tamas to jyotir.

It is a book of immense practicality. It deals with people like you

and me - not with saints (- although it is so masterfully construed

that even saints can learn everything they need to for the Ultimate

goal right here!)In Arjuna we have a wonderful ally who articulates

our doubts, our problems, our concerns, and our questions, so as to

enable Bhagwaan to patiently unfold the teaching to us.

I shall try to discuss some Slokas pertaining to the self, to the

best of my ability, as so kindly requested by Ramachanderji, as we

go along....

Shri Gurubhyo namaH

Shyam

August 23, 2006

advaitin, "advaitins" <advaitins wrote:

> Namaste Sadhakas:

>

> This Gita Satsangh will continue for the rest of this year or

until

> we get exhausted. All senior members of the list are requested to

> participate and enrich the discussions with their contributions.

> Om Tat Sat

>

> Advaitin List Moderators

*********************

Self is a pretty complicated term since it originates in English and

the thoughts that we are discussing are in Sanskrit. It would have

been nice if the moderators used the Sanskrit word that they meant.

I take self for Atman. Although Atman means the Self, it also means

to breath. So let me use the meaning as the Self which breaths. And

that can be jIvAtmA only.

As Shyam has pointed out in his mail in a different chain to this

satsang, the beauty of Gita is that it advices a jIvAtmA to take up

arms when he wants to renunciate. Why?

Some shlokas in Gita which had captured me in this regard are given

below in this context.

1. karmanyEvAdhikArasthE mA phalEshu kadAchana

mA karma phalahEturbhU mA tE samgEshvakarmani.

2. chAturvarnyam mayA srshtam gunakarmavibhAgashaH

tasya karthAramapi mAM vidhyakarthAramavyayaM

In shloka 2 it says chaturvarnyam is true. Therefore

AshramavyavasthA also becomes true. Therefore purushArthAs become

true. One of the purshArtha is kAmaM.

Whereas the first shloka says that karma should be performed without

kAmaM. For a long time this used to confuse me.

To me it means this. Understand that I am not the doer. I the Self

do as part of the paramAtmA. Same meaning is hidden in shloka

2. "mayA srshtaM" and "vidhyakarthAraM'. … done by me, know me as

the non-doer".

If I don't have kAmaM then why do I do? Because it is my duty. As

per chaturvarnyam I have a dharmaM. Understand my dharmaM and do. It

is just to perform my dharmaM that I do. That is why the lord

advices Arjuna to wage war, not for the country, not for success but

because Arjuna is kshatriya. The moment one does that one becomes

detatched.

Each of us can wage war of this sort day in and day out. Let me take

an example. You have a problem with the electricity board and the

connection is screwed up not due to your fault. When you complain

they implicitly expect a bribe. And you don't want to give that. If

you start fighting with them, you don't get the connection back

easily, may be never. That makes you hesitant to start the fight.

The moment you decide I don't need electricity any more and I am

going to live on candle light, you can go and wage a war against

them. And you will succeed. Because you have decided that you don't

need electricity but they need their job. If somebody there decides

that he does not need the job then the matter would be interesting!!

Or decide that you don't need a telephone connection and start

waging a war with them to get a connection.!

I have waged lone wars against giant companies like, international

banks, telephone department, international airlines etc. asking for

compensation for damages. Each time I decide that "I have lost that

money and I don't need that anymore. Let me just fight" Invariably

in each case I have got the kAmaM.

By such karma the self gets purified and becomes like clear water

and you start getting feelings or intuition of what is happening or

going to happen. At that stage the self does not have rAga or

vyrAgya. Because vyrAgya also is an attachment.

It becomes "yathA niyukthOsmi thathA karOmi"

It becomes "prAthaH samuththAya thava priyArtham saMsAra

yAtrAmanuvartayAmi"

Everything that the self does becomes acts of the supreme.

Elsewhere in Upanishads also it is stated that

kurvannEvEha karmAni jijIvishEd shathaM samAH

Evam tvayi nAnyathEthOsthi na karma lipyatE narE.

To me that is the message of Self from Geetha.

Taranandanatha.

August 23, 2006

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

> There is another self that the Gita deals with. The complicated

self.

> Let us do this - close our eyes and say "I am" - dont add any

> blessed thing after that - not your name not your degree not your

> state of mind nothing - just say "I am". After a second repeat

> again.."I am". Somewhere in a nanosecond between those 2 "I am" s

> that we just chanted - there is a very simple "I am" - this "I" is

> just aware, this I is just conscious, this I is just a witness. The

> I we now have is a complicated I - it is the simple I PLUS an

> infinitely heavy load -

> of what? 2 things - impressions and worries about the past and

> anxieties about the future.

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste Shyam,

Very woderfully presented ! When i read the above lines, i am

reminded of Bhagavan Ramana's words: To remain as you are is the most

easiest thing. Alas! that has become the most difficult thing for

many.

Regards,

Humble Pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 23, 2006

Namaste:

Please note that this list discussions are in English and we do have a

large number of westerners as members and consequently the term SELF

(Atman) is being used. I want to leave it Sri Subramaniyam to decide

whether he wants to use 'SELF' or equivalently Atman (SELF) as the

subject title. I appreciate your valuable comment and contribution to

this thread,

Warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "Nanda" <nandakumarn wrote:

> Self is a pretty complicated term since it originates in English and

> the thoughts that we are discussing are in Sanskrit. It would have

> been nice if the moderators used the Sanskrit word that they meant.

>

> I take self for Atman. Although Atman means the Self, it also means

> to breath. So let me use the meaning as the Self which breaths. And

> that can be jIvAtmA only.

>

August 23, 2006

Namaste Sri Murthygaru:

Thanks for pointing out the pitfalls of using examples with potentials

for misinterpretations. My statement was only with respect

to 'identification' of SELF as 'body, mind and intellect' and I do not

intent to imply that we stop the functioning of the body, mind and

intellect. From your comments, it seems that I didn't communicate it

well and thanks for the corrections.

Though I agree with your contention - "We should go back to Upanishads

and Sri Shankara and tread the correct traditional path," I do believe

we all can by understanding the practical aspects of Vedanta through

the verses of Gita. I am of the opinion that the message of Gita to

Arjuna does contain practical day to day aspects of our life we can

gain by learning to adopt them. This Cyber Satsangh will enable us to

understand and adopt both the traditional path and practical aspects of

Vedanta. I earnestly request the scholars to provide their valuable

insights through exchanges of messages.

With my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "narayana145" <narayana145 wrote:

>

> We should go back to Upanishads and Sri Shankara and

> tread the correct traditional path. I beg to differ from the

> statement of yours.As for Self-Knowledge is concerned, VIVEKA alone

> is the methodology and not by doing something.

>

> With warm and respectful regards,

> Sreenivasa Murthy

>

August 23, 2006

Namaste:

This subject matter of discussion, SELF (Atman) is the core of

Vedanta and I want to share my thoughts once again.

The traditional approach to learning and absorbing the teachings of

Vedanta is three-fold:

sravanam [hearing and/or reading]

mananam [reflecting or thinking about what we heard or read]

and nididhyasanam [intense meditation and practice].

Discussing the subject matter of SELF (Atman) through this Cyber

Satsangh could be considered both Sravanam and mananm. Sravanam is

actually much more than physically listening to the exposition of

Vedanta. It involves the clear understanding of the primary message

of Vedanta, its validity and its application in daily life. But we

all know how difficult it is for us to recall clearly what we had

heard and thought we understood either during the talks by the

teachers or through reading books or from the insights from list

discussions.

The second step of the learning process, Mananam is not merely

thinking about what we have heard or read. It requires wrestling with

the ideas, posing arguments and counter- arguments based on related

texts or personal experience in life. This happens more easily when

we engage in discussion with each other than in solitary reflection.

And only then do our deep-set doubts surface so we can resolve these

doubts and come to a deeper level of acceptance of Vedantic

teachings. This is the domain for this Cyber study groups. All

members of this advaitin list participate equally, with one of them

volunteering as a Coordinator (Sri Subramaniyam). The highest

emphasis is on active participation by all sincere seekers.

Nididhyasanam is the process of dwelling on the core of the teaching

of the scriptures to transcend the habitual identification with the

body, mind and intellect complex. The external objects are

continuously acting upon the mind through brain. The sense-

impressions reach the mind through brain using the sense-avenues and

produce mental stimuli. This causes to make us conscious of the

external objects. Consciousness may be caused by an awakening either

by external stimulus, i.e., stimulus from a sense-impression or an

internal stimulus through memory. The mind needs to be freed from

this distraction and Nididhyasanam provides the means to divert the

focus away from such distractions. The mind can become clean through

yoga (purification process) which helps one to transcend the

erroneous identification of Self with body, mind and intellect

complex. Nididhyasanam will be most effective when mind is pure.

With my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

August 23, 2006

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

My statement was only with respect

> to 'identification' of SELF as 'body, mind and intellect' and I do

not

> intent to imply that we stop the functioning of the body, mind and

> intellect. From your comments, it seems that I didn't communicate it

> well and thanks for the corrections.

>

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Namaste Sadhakas,

In the Kathopanishad (II.iii.8,9 and 10) we have some very important

message connected with the above:

In the eighth mantra, the Supreme was shown as transcending even the

Unmanifest (avyakta, the subtlest in the realm of duality). The

Upanishad calls that Supreme by name 'alinga'. The Acharya gives the

meaning: linga is that by which something is comprehended , for

example, the buddhi, etc.(these are instruments which help comprehend

objects, etc.)The Supreme does not have this instrument called buddhi,

hence It is called a-lingaH. That means, in effect, the Supreme is

devoid of all characteristics of samsara.

In the next mantra, the Acharya asks: How then is such a Self to be

apprehended? This mantra gives the method: His form does not exist

within the range of vision, nobody sees Him with the eye. When this

Self is revealed through deliberation, It is realized by the intellect,

the Master of the manas (manIT).

In the subsequent mantra, the means to develop the intellect that is

conducive(hR^inmanIT) to apprehend the Atman is explained:

The Acharya opens this mantra thus:

sA hR^inmanIT katham prApyate iti tadartho yogaH uchyate (meaning: How

can the ruler in the heart (the intellect conducive to apprehend the

Atman) be attained? For that purpose yoga is being inclucated:)

The mantra means: When the five senses of knowledge come to rest

together with the mind, and the intellect, too, does not function, that

state they call the highest.

The Bhashyam is: At the time when the five senses of knowledge - such

as ear, etc. which are called jnana (knowledge) being meant for

acquiring objective knowledge, together with the mind, which the senses

follow - together with the internal organ (mind) which is (now) weaned

away from (its functions of) thinking, etc. are at rest - in the Self

alone, after desisting from their objects, and the intellect does not

engage in its own activities; that state they call the highest state.

(Unquote)

The next mantra (11) says:

They consider that keeping of the senses steady as yoga. One becomes

vigilant at that time, for yoga is subject to growth and decay. (It

would help immensely to read the bhashyam for this mantra.)

Let this post be concluded with a relevant verse from the Gita:

rAga-devSha-viyuktaistu viShayAn indriyaischaran

Atma-vashyair vidhyeyAtmA prasAdam adhigacchati (II.64)

He attains peace, who, self-controlled, approaches objects with the

senses devoid of love and hatred and brought under his own control.

The Bhashya is:

The natural activity of the senses is characterized by love and

hatred. He who longs for deliverance resorts ONLY TO UNAVOIDABLE

OBJECTS with the senses - hearing, etc.- devoid of love and hatred and

brought under his own control, his inner sense (antaHkaraNa) being made

obedient to his own will. Such a man attains peace, tranquillity and

self-possession. (unquote)

To conclude: The method of nididhyasanam, intense focusing on the Self

was spoken of in the Kathopanishad mantras above. The practical life

of a sadhaka when he is not engaged in intense-focusing on the Self has

to be provided for as well. This is spoken of in the Gita verse

above.

Pranams to all,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 23, 2006

Namaste Ram Chandran-ji

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

> When the mind

> meditates on the "SUPREME," even the tastes for the objects, will

> disappear!

A clarification on the sentence above.

Lord Krishna says in verse

2.59, that the tastes for the objects falls away ONLY after the

realization of the supreme. In fact Shankara specifically says that

in the absence of full realization there can be no eradication of

the 'hankering'.

Here are details from Shankara bhasya on 2.59:

//Quote

The word rasa is well known as referring to the sense of taste

(hankering), as in such expressions as, 'sva-rasena pravrttah,

induced by his own taste (i.e. willingly)', 'rasikah, a man of

tastes', 'rasajnah, a connoisseur (of tastes)', etc. Api, even that;

rasah, taste of the nature of subtle attachment; asya, of this

person, of the sannyasin; nivartate, falls away, i.e. his objective

perception becomes seedless; when drstva, after attaining; param,

the Absolute, the Reality which is the supreme Goal, Brahman, he

continues in life with the realization, 'I verily am That

(Brahman).' In the absence of full realization there can be no

eradication of the 'hankering'. The idea conveyed is that, one

should therefore stabilize one's wisdom which is characterized by

full realization.

//End Quote

However you did bring up a very good point relating meditation and

control of desires. Normally as a person progresses in meditation

and is able to get increasing spells of deep meditation, he (or

she) will be able to notice lessening of desires in general.

I remember reading in the book 'Exalting Elucidiations' references

to the above. Don't have my copy of the book anymore. Maybe Sri

Subramanian-ji or others can post it.

On a slightly different subject, there is this passage in the on-

line Shankara bhasya about a possible 'vicious' circle and answers

to that objection:

//Quote

If it be held that attachment cannot be eliminated without the

knowledge of Brahman, and at the same time that the knowledge of

Brahman cannot arise until attachment is eradicated, then we get

involved in a vicious circle.

In answer it is said that gross attachments are eliminated through

discrimination which restrains the senses from being overpowered by

objects. And the full Knowledge arising thereof eliminates the

subtle inclinations as well. Hence there is no vicious circle

involved.

// End quote

I found this on http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/ - not sure if

this is in the original Shankara bhasya or from one of the sub-

commentaries

Thanks

Sundar Rajan

August 24, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v" <subrahmanian_v

wrote:

>

> ---

>

> Very woderfully presented ! When i read the above lines, i am

> reminded of Bhagavan Ramana's words: To remain as you are is the most

> easiest thing. Alas! that has become the most difficult thing for

> many.

>

From

Sankarraman

> Dear sir,

I am quoting the following interesting excerpts from the

book, "Be as you are," containg the pointers towards the natural state

often pointed out by Bhaghavan.

Being what one already is effortless since beingness is always

present and always experienced. On the other hand, pretending to

be what one is not (i.e. the body and the mind) requires continuous

mental effort, even though the effort is nearly always at a

subconscious level. It therefore follows that in the higher stages of

self-enquiry effort takes attention away from the experience of

being while the cessation of mental effort reveals it. Ultimately, the

Self is not discovered as a result of doing anything, but only by

being. As Sri Ramana himself once remarked:

`Do not meditate - be!

Do not think that you are - be!

Don't think about being - you are!`

Self-enquiry should not be regarded as a meditation practice that

takes place at certain hours and in certain positions; it should

continue throughout one's waking hours, irrespective of what one is

doing. Sri Ramana saw no conflict between working and selfenquiry

and he maintained that with a little practice it could be done

under any circumstances. He did sometimes say that regular periods

of formal practice were good for beginners, but he never advocated

long periods of sitting meditation and he always showed his

disapproval when any of his devotees expressed a desire to give up

their mundane activities in favour of a meditative life.

Q: You say one can realize the Self by a search for it. What is the

character of this search?

A: You are the mind or think that you are the mind. The mind is

nothing but thoughts. Now behind every particular thought there is

a general thought, which is the `I', that is yourself. Let us call this

`I' the first thought. Stick to this `I'-thought and question it to find

out what it is. When this question takes strong hold on you, you

cannot think of other thoughts.

Q: When I do this and cling to my self, that is, the `I'-thought, other

thoughts come and go, but I say to myself `Who am I ?' and there is

no answer forthcoming. To be in this condition is the practice. Is it

so?

A: This is a mistake that people often make. What happens when

you make a serious quest for the Self is that the `I'-thought

disappears and something else from the depths takes hold of you and

that is not the `I' which commenced the quest.

Q: What is this something else?

A: That is the real Self, the import of `I'. It is not the ego. It is the

Supreme Being itself.

Q: But you have often said that one must reject other thoughts

when one begins the quest but the thoughts are endless. If one

thought is rejected, another comes and there seems to be no end at

all.

85

A: I do not say that you must go on rejecting thoughts. Cling to

yourself, that is, to the `I'-thought. When your interest keeps you to

that single idea, other thoughts will automatically get rejected and

they will vanish.

Q: And so rejection of thoughts is not necessary?

A: No. It may be necessary for a time or for some. You fancy that

there is no end if one goes on rejecting every thought when it rises. It

is not true, there is an end. If you are vigilant and make a stern effort

to reject every thought when it rises you will soon find that you are

going deeper and deeper into your own inner self. At that level it is

not necessary to make an effort to reject thoughts.

Q: Then it is possible to be without effort, without strain.

A: Not only that, it is impossible for you to make an effort beyond

a certain extent.

>

with respectful regards

Sankarraman

August 24, 2006

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan

wrote:

>

> Namaste Ram Chandran-ji

> However you did bring up a very good point relating meditation and

> control of desires. Normally as a person progresses in meditation

> and is able to get increasing spells of deep meditation, he (or

> she) will be able to notice lessening of desires in general.

> On a slightly different subject, there is this passage in the on-

> line Shankara bhasya about a possible 'vicious' circle and answers

> to that objection:

> //Quote

> If it be held that attachment cannot be eliminated without the

> knowledge of Brahman, and at the same time that the knowledge of

> Brahman cannot arise until attachment is eradicated, then we get

> involved in a vicious circle.

>

> In answer it is said that gross attachments are eliminated through

> discrimination which restrains the senses from being overpowered by

> objects. And the full Knowledge arising thereof eliminates the

> subtle inclinations as well. Hence there is no vicious circle

> involved.

> // End quote

>

> I found this on http://www.gitasupersite.iitk.ac.in/ - not sure if

> this is in the original Shankara bhasya or from one of the sub-

> commentaries

> Thanks

> Sundar Rajan

Srigurubhyo namaH

Namaste Sundar Rajan ji,

Many thanks for the great quality inputs that you are bringing to

this List. The above is a real treasure. It is found in the

Anandagiri's gloss to the Acahrya's bhashyam for this verse (2.59)

Thank you once again for that vital question-answer quote.

Pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 24, 2006

SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA

The Goal of the Gita is to secure for the jiva the state of

NaiShkarmyam, or actionless

Fullness. In the Third chapter verse 4, Bhagavan teaches:

na karmaNAm anArambhAt naiShkarmyam puruSho'shnute

(The state of Actionless Fullness is not attainable unless one

passes through action, karma yoga.

Again, in the Eighteenth Chapter, verse 49, the Lord says that the

state of Actionless Fullness is the Supreme one: naiShkarmaya-siddhim

paramAm…

The journey to this state from the state of actions is not an easy

one. Realizing this, the Gita chalks out a graded path for him.

When Dharma enters one's life, the orientation of karma takes a new

turn. Dharma has its fruits. It increases sattva. Sattva, the

pure, guna is but one of the three gunas of prakriti. The Gita says:

Sattvam sukhe sanjayati rajah karmaNi bhaarata

~nAnamAvrtya tu tamaH pramAde sanjayatyutaH (18.9)

The sattva guna binds the jiva with sukha. Rajas enslaves him in

increased action. Tamas deludes the person's discriminating faculty

and brings about erroneous perception.

What is wrong with sukha? The scriptures point out that sukha is

equally bothersome as duhkha. Both agitate the mind. While misery

agitates the mind by pain, pleasure is just another form of

agitation. While misery brings dejection, pleasure results in

elation. The point is, elation does not stay constant in life. The

reason is, it is caused. Any pleasure caused has to end for that is

the law of nature. When pleasure comes to an end, misery takes over

as a result of the loss of pleasure.

For this reason, the Lord teaches that one has to transcend even

sattva. This can happen only through Jnana. While sattva is a

favourable friend in bringing about Jnana, its role has to be ended

there. There is a parable of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa to bring

out this:

A lonely traveler was accosted by three robbers. While one of them

decided to kill the victim, the other one prevented him saying: After

all we are after his possessions. Why kill him. Let us bind him to

the tree, take his possessions and depart. This was done. A little

later the third of the robbers returned alone, took pity of the

victim and freed him. The released traveler thanked the saviour and

invited him to his home to honour him with food. But the good

Samaritan refused to come to his house saying `the villagers will

recognize me as one of the robbers and apprehend me.'

(What an excellent way of teaching the concept of Maya in Advaita!!)

The parable brings out the roles played by the three gunas. Tamas is

reckless in destroying. Rajas is better, but binds a person.

Sattva, however, frees the person. But since it cannot be without

the company of the other two, it does not find a place in the

liberated state.

The above was related to point out that Dharma too has limitations.

It produces pleasure and pleasure seeks more pleasure and results in

performance of more dharma. This cycle too, is a never-ending one.

(One may recollect the discourse by the Acharya of Kanchi

on `titikShA' that was posted here by Prof.VK ji.)

The Gita aims at giving the aspirant the Best Goal that is neither

tainted with the painful path of reckless karma nor with the pleasure-

yielding path of dharma. It works out an intelligent alternative

that is free from these defects, yet includes in its attainment a

judicious mix of karma and dharma. This path is the path of an

aspirant after the Parama Purushartha, Moksha. As we saw earlier

that man cannot remain without acting, the Gita teaches him the art

of engaging in action that does not bind him into further action, but

eventually results in liberating him from slavish action. This is

the art of Karma Yoga. The element of Dharma is added to this.

Attachment to objects and the pleasure they give is gradually turned

into devotion to the Cause of all objects, Ishwara and the fountain

of love and compassion that Ishwara is. With Bhakti in place, the

aspirant is taught to dedicate whatever he does through the triple

organs of body, mind and speech. Now he undertakes only what is

dharmic, and lovingly offers the fruit of the actions and later the

actions themselves to Bhagavan.

His primary instruments, mind, body and speech, all engaging in the

above soul-purifying action, become subdued and the psyche undergoes

a metamorphosis. Slowly action gives way to meditating on the Lord's

form and His Glories (vibhuti). The selfish mind that could not look

beyond the needs of the body and kith and kin, now expands to look

upon the whole of creation as a manifest form of Bhagavan to be

worshipped in ever so many ways. The mind now having acquired (1)

chitta shuddhi due to karma yoga and (2) chitta ekaagrataa due to

meditating on the Lord and His glories, now becomes a fit instrument

to tread the final phase of the journey.

The path of Jnana now opens to this aspirant. His love directs

itself from the Ishwara and His glories to the Atman, the Inmost

Principle. The Lord has said:

~jnAnI nityayuktaH…priyo hi ~jnAnino atyartham aham. sa cha mama

priyaH

The ~jnani who is the Self-realized man is ever-devoted. I am the

most adored by the ~jnaani.. In turn, he is dear to Me. (Ch.7.verse

17)

We have here the words aham and mama. The Lord uses these with a

special significance. We recently saw (in Prof.Vkji's posts) that it

is the higher bhakti that results from the proper practice of the

four-fold qualifications by an aspirant after liberation. This higher

bhakti is towards the formless Self. The earlier type of bhakti was

required, and was directed towards the Creator Ishwara and His

glories. Now, as the sadhana intensifies, the love of Ishwara, in

all creation `out there' is turned inwards towards the Atman residing

inmost, beyond the five koshas. This love for the Atman is the one

that ultimately gives the Atman-realization to the aspirant and

liberates him from samsara. The Lord in the above verse is

signifying this. We are able to appreciate that the aspirant after

Jnana loves Atman. But what is the meaning behind the Lord

saying `he is dear to Me'? To reply this we shall consider this

beautiful verse of the NaiShkarmya-siddhi (3.28) of Sri

Sureshwaracharya:

YAvad-yAvad nirasya ayam dEhAdIn pratak anchati

taavat taavat tadartho'pi tvamartham pravivikShati

(As one approaches the Innermost Self progressively, rejecting the

non-self from the body onwards, exactly concomitant with this process

is the tendency of the meaning of `That' to merge in the meaning

of `Thou') (Whoever said there is no beauty in Vedanta literature?

What great poetic beauty is filled in this verse!!)

This is what Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said `If you take one step

towards God, He will take a hundred steps towards you'. Again the

Kathopanishad says: yameva eSha vrNute tena labhyaH. tasya eSha AtmA

vivrNute tanUm svAm (I.ii.23) The meaning is that, to a desireless

man who seeks for the Self alone, the Self becomes known of Its own

accord. The Self reveals Its own `body', Its own true nature to

him. That is the meaning of the Lord's words `he is dear to Me'.

The Acharya says here: `It is quite well known to all in this world

that the Atman is dear to every one. Therefore Vasudeva, as the

Atman of the Jnani, is dear to him. And the Jnani is My very Atman

and is therefore very dear to Me. (What a profound advaita jnanam and

bhakti inseparable !!)

Again the Lord says: JnAni tu Atmaiva me matam. (verse 7. 18). Here

is the Mahavakya uttered by the Lord: the Jnani is non-different from

Me. This is My Definite view. The Acharya says here: The wise man

strives to reach Me, firm in the faith that he himself is the Lord

Vasudeva and is no other than He. He seeks Me alone, the Supreme

Brahman, as the highest goal to be reached.(unquote)

We shall sum up this introductory discussion by taking a quick look

at the path. At one extreme we have the instinctively action-ridden

man struggling, not knowing that he is struggling, in samsara. In

the other extreme we have a goal that says Naishkarmayam, Actionless

Fullness is the true nature of man. The Lord through the nectarine

teachings of the Bhagavad Gita takes the aspirant step by step to

this goal that is none other than He Himself. How do we know this?

We saw that the three gunas of Maya have enslaved man. The Lord

teaches in the Fourteenth chapter the marks of a truly evolved man.

In verses 21 to 26 the gunAtIta lakshanas have been described. The

26th verse says: he, crossing those three gunas, is fitted to become

Brahman'. In the thirteenth Chapter 18 verse the Lord says: My

devotee, on knowing this (that is the knowledge of the kshetra and

the Kshetrajna) is fitted for My state, Moksha. The state of Moksha

is the Naishkarmyasiddhi, Actionless Fullness. Thus, the two extremes

can unite. Quite unbelievable, yet True!!

We shall take up specific shlokas of the Bhagavadgita to highlight

the Atman concept.

Om Srikrishnaarpanamastu

Pranams to all sadhakas

Subbu

Om Tat Sat

August 26, 2006

Dear Sri Murthy,

>>

During one of my meetings with him suddenly he asked

me,"Murthy, are you hearing now?". I said yes. Next he asked me to

close both the ears which I did. Then he said something which I could

not hear. He asked me to to open the ears and he asked me "Murthy,

could you hear what I spoke?" I replied "No". Then he asked me " How

do you KNOW that you could hear the sound in the first instance and

how do you KNOW that you could not hear the sound in the second

instance ? YOU ARE ONLY THE KNOWER OF THE SENSES AND THEIR FUNCTIONS

WHICH ARE OBJECTS TO YOU WHO IS THE KNOWER". He concluded by

saying "REMAIN AS THE KNOWER'.

>>

After being instructed "REMAIN AS THE KNOWER", were you able to

remain as the knower? and if not, why not?

This is not a trick question and I don't mean to put you in a spot

but wanted to highlight a common difficulty faced by all sadhakas.

We hear repeatedly from the scriptures and Acharyas but..

Here is an interesting dialogue from 'Talks with Sri Ramana

Maharishi' that sheds light on this:

// Quote

Talk 289.

D.: Having heard this truth, why does not one remain content?

M.: Because samskaras have not been destroyed. Unless the

samskaras cease to exist, there will always be doubt and confusion

(sandeha, viparita). All efforts are directed to destroying doubt

and confusion. To do so their roots must be cut. Their roots are the

samskaras. These are rendered ineffective by practice as prescribed

by the Guru. The Guru leaves it to the seeker to do this much so

that he might himself find out that there is no ignorance. This truth

mentioned is in the stage of the hearing of the Truth (sravana). That

is not drdha (firm).

For making it unshaken, one has to practise

reflection (manana) and one-pointedness (nididhyasana). These

two processes scorch the seeds of vasanas so that they are rendered

ineffective.

Some extraordinary persons get drdha jnana (unshaken knowledge)

even on hearing the Truth only once (sakrchhravana matrena).

Because they are krthopasakah (advanced seekers), whereas the

akrthopasakah (raw seekers) take longer to gain drdha jnana

(unshaken knowledge). People ask: "How did ignorance (avidya)

arise at all?" We have to say to them: "Ignorance never arose. It has

no real being. That which is, is only vidya (knowledge)."

D.: Why then do I not realise it?

M.: Because of the samskaras. However, find out who does not realise

and what he does not realise. Then it will be clear that there is no

avidya (ignorance).

// End Quote

regards

Sundar Rajan

August 29, 2006

SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA - Verse 61 of Chapter 2

Srigurubhyo NamaH

Self, the Focus of the Bhagavadgita

Namaste sadhakas,

We saw a brief introduction to the Bhagavadgita and therein we saw

that the teaching of the Lord is to uplift the aspirant and take him

to the state of naishkarmyam, Actionless Fullness.

In the Second Chapter, the Lord gives a detailed teaching of the

Atman in its pure form. This enables the aspirant to know what in

truth is his own Self. An opportunity is given herein to discern the

Atman, intellectually though, from the an-Atman, the body, etc. The

Lord taught that the gross body is akin to a worn out apparel that is

discarded and a fresh one is acquired. This constitutes the bodily

death. But the indweller Atman is not so discarded. He also stated

that the jiva taking birth will have to face death without exception

and the one who dies will have to be born. The gross body that is

born and dies is not just a mass of flesh, but has someone called a

jiva indwelling. This jiva is the conglomerate of the body, the mind

and the senses. This is the one that transmigrates from birth to

birth. But then the Atman that is free from this body-mind complex

neither takes birth nor dies. It is knowing oneself as this Atman

that constitutes liberation from embodied existence. This knowing is

not just an intellectual process but a direct awareness of one's

identity with it. As this identity does not come upon by itself, one

has to engage in sadhana towards that end. The mind turned outwards

towards innumerable objects has to be gradually freed from the

attachment to the external and turned towards the Atman. This inward

journey requires a lot of cultivating of the mind. When the mind

acquires the subtlety and one-pointedness necessary to apprehend the

Atman, the realization takes place.

About the need for a subtle, sharp intellect to be developed for this

purpose, the Jivanmukti viveka gives an example. To stitch a fine

cloth nobody uses a crowbar as a needle. Similarly, to apprehend the

extremely subtle Atman one has to shed the grossness of the mind and

acquire a fineness.

Upon hearing about the apprehending of the Atman as the means for

liberation, Arjuna asks the Lord to explain the traits of a person

that has secured the firm realization of the Atman. The Acharya

explains that the traits of a realized person explained in all the

literature of Adhyatma Shastra is with a view to form the model-

teaching for the sadhaka to practice. What is natural to a realized

sage becomes a source of practice to be consciously inculcated.

Towards this end, the Lord says: The sadhaka who has embarked upon

the task of securing firmness in Realization has to undertake certain

practices. These involve strict and vigilant control over the

senses. Why is it required that even a person who has secured the

direct realization of the Atman should be wary of the senses? The

senses are a powerful army that can topple even a knower. He has to

carefully engage in constant contemplation of the Atman. This

requires that he take a seated posture and bring the mind and senses

under his control. The question arises: What is the purpose of

keeping the mind and senses under control? If they are not allowed

their way, what is the alternative to be given to them? To this the

Lord replies in verse 61:

taani sarvaaNi samyamya yukta AsIta mat-paraH

vashey hi yasyendriyANi tasya prajnaa pratiShThitA

Restraining them all, a man should remain steadfast, intent on Me.

His knowledge is steady whose senses are under control.

Now, let us delve deep into the meaning of this verse. The mind and

the senses constitute the `all' of a person. It is through them,

with them, that the person acquires a `personality'. When these are

subdued, as for example, in sleep, there is no experiencing of

this `personality'. In effect, we can say that this personality is

the karta-bhokta, the doer-enjoyer jiva. We have seen earlier that

it is the popping up of this personality that constitutes samsara and

the erasing of this personality through the realization of the Atman

constitutes liberation from samsara. So, a need arises to specify

the `object' towards which the sadhaka directs his attention when the

personality is subdued in meditation. The Lord has said `AsIta'

which means `let him be seated'. There is a Brahmasutra: AasInaH

sambhavAt'. Herein it is discussed and finally decided that any

contemplation worthwhile, takes place only when seated and not

otherwise when walking, running, standing lying down, etc.

The sadhaka is asked by the Lord to fix his attention on Him, the

Lord.. Why on the Lord and not on the Atman? This is where we

encounter the teaching of identity, aikyam, between the Atman and the

Lord. The use of the word `mat-paraH' is extremely significant. It

means: ' I ` am the Supreme. This is a compound word, called in

Sanskrit a bahu-vrIhi-samaasa'. In simple terms the expression `mat-

paraH' would mean `I-specific'. The idea is, the sadhaka should turn

his attention away from the external things, even the mind, and

direct it to `I' the Atman. The Lord says `Let the sadhaka focus his

attention on Me'. That means, let the sadhaka have Me, the Lord, the

Self of all, as his ultimate Goal.

We saw in the Introduction that the Acharya taught that it is the

Self, the I, Atman, that is dearest to a person. This is so because

one loves himself most. Sometimes he might even be disappointed with

his body or even the mind for its disobedient, wayward nature. But

he can never hate himself. In other words, he can never cease loving

himself. It is not a duality-based love, but a love inhering in

oneself. This is the innermost Atma, the abode of Ananda, nay,

verily Ananda itself. It is not knowing this specifically, that we

love so many other things in the world, starting from the ego, mind,

body, others' mind, bodies, objects, house, wealth, etc. Now, when

the love is turned away from these non-Atman and directed at the

Atman, the recognition of the Eternal Spring of Love comes about. It

is this that is spoken of as `Raso vai saH' in the Upanishads. This

means: "He is Bliss indeed'. The Atman is bliss indeed and the

fulfillment of life is attained only when this is experienced.

It is the experiencing of this Eternal Spring of Love that brings

about the disappearance of the lingering taste for objects. A

sadhaka keeps off from sense objects consciously. By that much his

innate taste for them does not disappear altogether. He has only

physically stayed away from them. But the depths of his mind

entertain a taste for the objects. The Lord said in the Gita II.59

that even this nascent taste disappears upon securing the direct

realization of this Eternal Spring of Love, one's own Atman.

The question remains: Is the Atman that the sadhaka focuses his

attention, a limited Self of this person only? The Lord answers

no. By Mat-paraH, the Lord confirms that I, Vasudeva, the inmost

Self of ALL, the `sarva-pratyagaatma' as the Acharya puts it, am not

limited, but Infinite. There is devotion, superior Love, towards the

Lord, the Atma of all. The sadhaka, the devotee, holds the Lord as

his Ultimate Goal, paraH. ParaH means supreme, Big. The word Mat-

paraH therefore teaches that the sadhaka has not any finite object

for his love but the Infinite Lord, the Atman of All as the

only `object' worthy of his love. This signifies `I = Atma am none

other than Bhagavan, Brahman'. The Lord teaches in the 18th chapter,

verse 61 : IshwaraH sarva-bhUtaanaam hriddeshe Arjuna tiShThati' =

the Lord dwells in the hearts of all beings, O Arjuna. Again, in the

13th chapter, 17th verse the Lord says: hridi sarvasya vishThitam.

This means the Supreme Self is present in the inmost region of

everyone as the means to know Him, as the Goal to be realized and as

the Goal as realized. Hence, the Acharya's comment that `Vasudeva,

I, am Sarva-pratyagaatma' is quite appropriately made. The Lord is

supremely loveable only because He is non-different from me, the

Atman. If someone has love for the Lord as different from himself,

it still means that he loves the Lord only because that is pleasant

for him. We are taken to `Atmanastu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavati',

everything becomes dear only because it is subservient to oneself.

So, in the final stage even this duality is shed and that which is

supremely loved is realized to be the Atman. As this Atman is no

longer finite, it is apt to call it Paramaatman. That is the meaning

of the word `mat-paraH' that the Lord so lovingly teaches in this

verse.

It is the focusing on this Paramaatman that helps keep the senses

under check. This intense, prolonged practice gives rise to firmness

in knowledge. When this is eventually attained, the Jnani is a

sthita-prajna, one with a steady wisdom. He is a Jivanmukta. For

such a one there is no more samsara.

We shall look at some more verses where the focus is the Atman, as we

proceed on this topic.

SrIvaasudevArpanamastu

Om Tat Sat

>

September 5, 2006

advaitin, "subrahmanian_v"

<subrahmanian_v wrote:

>

> SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA - Verse 61 of Chapter 2

>

> Srigurubhyo NamaH

>

The use of the word `mat-paraH' is extremely significant. It

> means: ' I ` am the Supreme. This is a compound word, called in

> Sanskrit a bahu-vrIhi-samaasa'. In simple terms the expression

`mat-

> paraH' would mean `I-specific'. The idea is, the sadhaka should

turn

> his attention away from the external things, even the mind, and

> direct it to `I' the Atman. The Lord says `Let the sadhaka focus

his

> attention on Me'. That means, let the sadhaka have Me, the Lord,

the

> Self of all, as his ultimate Goal.

> We shall look at some more verses where the focus is the Atman, as

we

> proceed on this topic.

Mookam karoti vachalam pangum langayate girim

Yat krpa tamaham vande paramananda madhavam

I salute Madhava, the souce of Supreme Bliss, whose grace enables a

dumb man to be eloquent and a cripple to cross mountains.

Namostu te vyaasa vishaalabuddhe

phullaaravindaa yatapatranetra,

Yena twayaa bhaaratatailapoorna h

prajwaalito jnaanamayah pradeepah.

Salutations unto thee, O Vyasa, of immense intellect and with eyes

large like the petals of a full-blown lotus, by whom the lamp of

divine knowledge, filled with the oil of the Mahabharata, has been

lighted.

After that wonderful analysis of a very imprtant sloka in Ch 2 by

Subbu-ji, let us focus on another sloka in Ch 3.

3.30

mayi sarvani karmani

sannyasyadhyatma-cetasa

nirasir nirmamo bhutva

yudhyasva vigata-jvarah

3.30 Devoid of the fever of the soul, engage in battle by dedicating

all actions to Me, with (your) mind intent on the Self, and becoming

free from expectations and egoism.

Bhagwaan Shankara's commentary

Vigata-jvarah, devoid of the fever of the soul, i.e. being free from

repentance, without remorse; yuddhyasva, engage in battle;

sannyasya, by dedicating; sarvani, all; karmani, actions; mayi, to

Me, who am Vasudeva, the omniscient supreme Lord, the Self of all;

adhyatma-cetasa, with (your) mind intent on the Self-with

discriminating wisdom, with this idea, 'I am an agent, and I work

for God as a servant'; and further, bhutva, becoming; nirasih, free

from expectations ['Free from expectations of results for

yourself']; and nirmamah, free from egoism. You from whom has

vanished the idea, '(this is) mine', are nirmamah.

This sloka is one of the most important slokas of the Bhagawad Gita,

and carries tremendous significance for reflection as well as

understanding.

The Self referred to here is Vasudeva or Ishwara as karmaphaladaata.

Let us see what is implied and explained.

What is karma? Any action done with an intent.

Whenever we do any action there are two things involved icchashkati

and kriyashakti - the capacity to desire and the capacity to do.

(Now a doubt may arise - suppose I trample an insect while walking

on the street? Is that a karma - i didn't intend to trample it - yes

it is - it is an act of omission - the intent was to cross the

street but in performing that task, care should have taken to not

cause harm.)

So karmas are intentional acts of both commision as well as omission.

Now no action is possible without desire. And desire is always for

the fruit of the action.

A surgeon performs a surgery. It is an act. What is his desire? That

the surgery be successful. Now can he perform the action with no

desire that the surgery be successful? Of course not. Then how can

he be free from expectation? The Lord and Sankara make it clear -

free from expectations of the results for "my"self - nirasih

nirmamah. He wants the surgery to be successful. But he knows this

result is not in his hands. It is in the hands of the Supreme

Bestower of the results of all actions - the Karmaphaladaata - which

is Ishwara. And is this Ishwara sitting in some place and watching

this action(surgery) by live relay - no - the very Laws of the Order

that will determine the results of that action is Ishwara itself.

You jump from a tree - the very law that forces you to hurtle down

at 9.8m/sec is Ishwara.

Now Bhagwaan asks this surgeon to surrender "his action" to Me, the

Supreme Self - mayi sarvani karmani sannyasya. How?? I can surrender

to you something i have with me. You can ask me to surrender my

watch, my money, my food and so on. The results of my action are not

mine - what/how then to surrender? I do have one and only one thing

I can surrender - my attachment to the result for myself. My self

right now is my ego-sense- the sense of insignificance and

separation from Ishwara. Hence the result becomes important to me -

because in that result I falsely see myself becoming a little more

significant a little more complete - by gaining more respect, money,

pleasure, validation, honor, etc.

And these sow the seeds for me to get the results also for myself

alone - and these results can be the same, different or opposite of

what I expected for myself. So by attaching myself to the results of

the action I am setting my"self" up for an unexpected occurence.

This then sets up the lifelong struggle of ups and downs, which we

call samsara. A good result results in elation which is however

shortlived as the next thought is focussed now on either

safeguarding it or repeating it. A bad result results in depression

and frustration. Either way it leads to mental agitation. This is

what the Lord refers to as fever or agitation.(jvarah)

So instead for the good of my own self, the Lord advises me very

kindly - "Look, you do not have an iota of control over the results

of your actions. So why attach yourself to that. Surrender that

attachment to me."

Going back to the example of the surgeon - his attitude would/should

be "O Omniscient Lord. I am a mere instrument in your hands. You

brought me to this world. By your Grace have some small skills been

imbibed my me whereby You have now given me this ability as well as

opportunity to be of some service in a very limited way to one of my

brothers. My performance of this task is for You alone. Let my

skills, which You alone have imparted, not fail me as I perform this

task."

Adhyatma chetasa refers to this attitude soaked in devotion to the

Supreme Self whilst engaged in action.

Now if the surgery is successful or not, the surgeon is prepared.

His mind is at ease, at peace. He can now focus his attention solely

on the job at hand. His entire inner equipments of his mind and

intellect as well as his outer equipments of his hands and eyes are

now completely in sync. His whole being is now focussed wholly and

solely on the action itself - and this lends itself to dexterity in

action - and that the Bhagwan says is what is yoga. "Yoga karmasu

kausalam"

As Swami Chinmayananda-ji puts it so beautifully -

"If hope is the child of the unborn future, ego is the lingering

memory of a dead past. To revel in ego and hope is an attempt on our

part to live, either with the dead moments of the past, or with the

unborn moments of the future."

If the action is not "my" action, then the result is also not "my"

result.

I do not see myself as the "karta" and hence I do not see myslef as

the "bhokta"

What happens happens in strict accordance Ishwara's perfect order,

and I accept it gracefully as His prasad. Thus a surrendering

intellect gives rise to an accepting intellect.

This can be made applicable to each one of us - whatever activity we

do - we do it in this same spirit of surrender - we surrender the

expectations of the false self at the altar of the true self.

(As a byside - the word yudhyasva - gear up to fight.

Shouldnt we believe in ahimsa? This is where in my humble opinion

the Hindu doctrine and understanding of ahimsa is quite different

from the Buddhist/Jain doctrines of Absolute ahimsa. In absolute

ahimsa you never raise your hand no matter what - no exceptions. In

Hinduism, ahimsa is always with reference to the context. Allowing

himsa to take place to the righteous person without intervening is

not ahimsa - it is as bad as the person perpetrating that himsa.

Hence it is that all our Gods (and even more so our Goddesses) are

always depicted with magnificent weaponry. There are hardly any God-

images we can see which do not have at least one powerful weapon of

massdestruction! This is quite different from depicitions of God in

non-Hindu streams. Why is this so? I think this is because we do not

attach an absolute and nonthinking value to ahimsa.

Battle/war/killing/punishment, etc is very much accepted by us

PROVIDED it is the last and only recourse AND himsa to dharma is at

stake.)

Shri gurubhyo namah

Shyam

September 5, 2006

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

>

> >

> After that wonderful analysis of a very imprtant sloka in Ch 2 by

> Subbu-ji, let us focus on another sloka in Ch 3.

>

> 3.30

> mayi sarvani karmani

> sannyasyadhyatma-cetasa

> nirasir nirmamo bhutva

> yudhyasva vigata-jvarah

>

> 3.30 Devoid of the fever of the soul, engage in battle by

dedicating

> all actions to Me, with (your) mind intent on the Self, and

becoming

> free from expectations and egoism.

>

Namaste Shyam-ji and others

Your selection of the shloka 3 – 30 from the Gita is great. It is

one of my most favourite shlokas. Certain shlokas of the Gita I

consider as most important. Some others are important, but at the

next priority. So I have, for my own benefit of recall, (and for

purpose of effective communication) have rated them as `five-

star', `four-star' and so on . Your shloka 3-30 is a five-star

shloka for me.

Well, let me come to the point.

mayi sarvANi karmANi sanyasy-AdhyAtma-cetasA /

nirAShIr-nirmamo bhUtvA yudhyasva vigata-jvaraH //

Renouncing all actions in Me, with mind inward on the Self, you

should fight, devoid of the fever of excitement, heedless of

expectations and of any sense of proprietorship.

It is significant to note that one has to 'fight' without desire,

without ego and without excitement! When interpreted for the common

man this means: Do carry on your life's journey doing all your

duties without selfishness, and without the fever and excitement

that you normally show in chasing happiness and satisfaction. How is

this possible? It should be made possible. That is karma yoga.

There are five messages here.

"Renouncing all actions in Me" – This is the surrender theory.

"With mind inward on the Self" – This is Bhakti Yoga

"you should fight" -- This is karma yoga: cf.*karmanyeva

adhikAraste*

"devoid of the fever of excitement" – This is yoga-sAdhanA or

control of the outer self.

"heedless of expectations and of any sense of proprietorship" – This

is Brahma-bhAva, the attitude of seeing God and nothing but God

everywhere,

These five messages exhaust the Gita!

Now the whole shloka appears to be a tall order. How is this to be

effected in actual practice? This is the million-dollar question.

The whole of the third and part of the fourth chapters emphasize

the yajna methodology for us to put this in practice. But instead of

going in that direction let me tell the lay reader that Lord Krishna

very considerately gives three different samples of a doer, namely,

lowest (tAmasa kartA), the average one (rAjasa kartA) and the

highest (sAtvika kartA) so that any one of us would be able to

assess for ourselves as to how a thing should not be done, what

are the things to be overcome and how we are to move towards the

ideal (which is III-30) which is what we should strive for. To get

this message of the Lord we take up three shlokas in the 18th

chapter:28, 27, 26 – in that order.

The lowest type of 'doer' has no control (ayuktaH) over himself.

He is unsteady in his application. His low instincts and impulses

prod him on to behave in a mediocre (prAkRta) way. He is so mediocre

that his mediocrity increases by every action of his – just as

garbage heaps up by more garbage. And he becomes fraudulent (ShaTaH)

and so unbending (stabdhaH) that he is stubborn in his errors and

obstinate in his stupidity. He is bent upon creating quarrels and

disputes and so the world knows him to be malicious (naishkRtikaH).

In this way he sets up a pattern for himself that the good things

that others may do for him rebound from him as a virus that hurts

and destroys. Avoiding all creative endeavours, productive or

purposeful, he is a model of sluggishness and indolence (alasaH).

Consequently he becomes unable to meet life's challenges and so is

despondent (vishAdI). Naturally he postpones (dIrgha-sUtrI)

everything until it is too late. Such a person is called a tAmasa-

kartA: (gItA, 18 -28):

ayuktaH prAkRtaH stabdhaH shaTo naishkRtiko'lasaH /

vishAdI dIrgha-sUtrI ca kartA tAmasa ucyate //

The better 'doer' ( that is, better than the one classified as

tAmasa-kartA) is called a rAjasic (=dynamic, passionate) doer. (18 –

27):

rAgI karma-phala-prepsuH lubdho himsAtmako'shuciH /

harshha-shokAnvitaH kartA rAjasaH parikIrtatah //

Impulsive, desiring to gain the fruits-of-actions, greedy, rude and

bold to overcome, unchastened, slave by turns of sorrow and joy,

such a doer is a rAjasic (impassioned) doer. This greedy doer is

constantly thinking of this reward or that consequence. In fact such

a doer is the fertile ground for all the desires of the world; and,

full of these desires, he becomes malignant in what he does. He has

such a fierce independence as will repudiate any kind of

subordination. He himself engages in what seems to his colleagues as

suicidal brinkmanship. He is not ignorant, but he is a passionate go-

getter irrespective of the means he adopts.

The right doer is however humble and resolute. He does not seek

something for himself. His contentment always shows up. The moon is

not affected by the vibrations of its reflections in a lake. Clouds

bump into other clouds and create great thunder and lightning; but

the space in which all this happens is always the same. The big

waves swallow the small waves; but the ocean remains the same. Where

there is sun, there is no darkness; the sun never meets darkness,

the right doer never indulges in the opposite of righteousness. Just

as the ocean does not distinguish between its waters, whether they

originate from this river or that river, so also the right doer does

not distinguish between his actions, whether this or that is to his

liking. He has the necessary personal warmth, enthusiasm, insight

and originality. He is like the ideal nurse in a hospital, who

brings her entire personality into the picture and works with

dedication irrespective of the `success' or `failure'. He genuinely

enjoys helping others and takes his work seriously.

This shloka, which describes the ideal sAtvic doer is again a five-

star shloka!

mukta-sango'-naham-vAdI dhRty-utsAha-samanvitaH /

siddhy-asiddhyor-nirvikAraH kartA sAtvika ucyate //

Free from attachment, free from egoism, full of a fixed impersonal

resolution and a calm rectitude of zeal, unelated by success and

undepressed by failure, such a one is called the sAtvika-kartA.

Mukta-sangaH -- Free from attachment: This is easier said than

done. The scriptures with one voice give the recipe how to be free

from attachment. The human mind by nature cannot obey the

commandment of non-attachment. Therefore they say, attach yourself

to God. The Tamil tirukuRaL puts this most succintly and

beautifully:

paRRuga paRRaRRAn paRRinai appaRRaip-

parruga parru viDaRku /

Acquire only the attachment to God who has no attachment Himself. In

order to get rid of all attachments that attachment has to be

acquired.

This is the religious facet of karma yoga. In the modern terminology

of psychology this is called 'releasing from worldly ties by

retying to Spirit'. But this attitude would require a belief in God

and things of the 'beyond'. Modern Youth may perhaps want a prop

without the intervention of the idea of God. The mother as a deity

of dedication is only one example of how karma yoga can be

implemented even at the level of a teen-age student and even for the

purpose of what appears to be a most self-centred action in which

the good of the society does not enter the picture and wherein only

the good of one's own self is the prime mover. The mystery of the

yajna attitude is its potential to convert even an act of

selfishness into an act of dedication and detachment! So the

student, in tune with his attitude of dedication to his mother,

should see to it that attachment to his mother replaces his

perennial attachment to the results of his work.

For a man in (incidentally, not 'of ') the world, this means he is

either attached to his God whom He serves or to his abstract God of

Service -- which may be either the society, the cause, or the

organization he serves. In all cases there is attachment no doubt

but the attachment is never for an end which is self-centred. This

is the yajna attitude. In the secular world this means one is

stepping clear of bonds and physically moving away from problems so

that even difficult problems of management or tricky personal

problems get solved from a distance.

Free from egoism. (anahamvAdI) Again the dedication takes care of

this. Whether it is the Marketing Executive, the Administrative

Manager, the student on the climb, or the man in the world, the

dedication to either the cause, or the organization, or the mother,

or God, is the proper antidote for curtailing the ego and in due

time making it totally subservient to everything else. Once the ego

is put in its place, the yajna attitude is on.

dhRti-utsAha-samanvitaH (accompanied by firm resolve and deep

fervour): Firm resolve and deep fervour are two fundamental

qualities which not only the student but every other type of person

we are talking about would need. The very fact they are put in here

as the necessary associates of an ideal doer, show that a work done

with healthy detachment is not a work which is indifferently done or

something which is executed as an unwanted evil necessity. One

enjoys doing the work. And one does it efficiently. It is the

spirit with which one does the work rather than the mundane carrots

that bring the joy.

siddhy-asiddhyor-nirvikAraH --Unelated by success and undepressed by

failure: Here it is that the student will know what it is to

dedicate his work to his mother. It is common knowledge that when a

child does not perform in school it is the father, (generally),

more than the mother, who will be uncompromising. The mother usually

takes the stand that the child did its best and she hopes for a

better performance in the future. The dedication to the mother by

the teen-age student of all his work, both its success and its

failure, achieves two things. First, it takes off the sting of the

performance (positive or negative) from the student . Secondly the

mother is prepared to take the disappointment of the failure

better. In the general case of the man in the world, the success

and failure would not be taken personally as to cause excitement

either way, because one knows by his dedication to the Cause or the

God, that one has done the best under the circumstances. The ideal

example is a good nurse in a hospital who brings her entire

personality in the picture and works with dedication irrespective

of `success' or `failure'.

The alchemy of the yajna attitude by dedication of even ordinary

acts to a larger cause, be it as concrete as one's mother at home,

or as imperceptible as God in heaven, or as abstract as any

impersonal noble cause, has to be experienced to be believed. It

confirms the recurring emphasis in the scriptures on the importance

of correct attitudes. Therefore it is the attitude with which you

approach your karma that is important, rather than the karma itself.

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

September 6, 2006

Namaste ProfVKji and Shyamji:

During the past several days we have posting from three members who

want to explain why they " from this list." Interestingly

all of them made the observation that the discussions in this list

did not meet their "expectations." I wish they all read the messages

of ProfVK and Sri Shyam explaining the essence of verse 30 of Chapter

3 of Bhagavad Gita. All those who participate in these discussions

get the rare opportunity to dedicate everything that they write

(intented to convey) to the feet of the Lord to free themselves from

expectations and egoism. This is the best way to learn and practice

Karma Yoga! We don't know (can't know and need not know) whether

anyone reads our messages, whether any likes or hates our messages.

With 1500 rs to this list (and many thousands who reads

directly from the archives) it is impossible for us to know the

outcome! Our RIGHT is only to Post and we do not have any right to

force anyone to accept/reject/react to what we say! This is the fact

of life and I and hundreds of others who have been quite fortunate to

observe this for many years staying as member without opting to

.

Now let me turn the focus to the subject matter of discussion. I also

consider this verse as quite important and I do want to go over the

interpretation one more time.

3.30 mayi sarvani karmani sannyasyadhyatma-cetasa

nirasir nirmamo bhutva yudhyasva vigata-jvarah

Devoid of the fever of the soul, engage in battle by dedicating all

actions to Me, with (your) mind intent on the Self, and

becoming free from expectations and egoism.

The word `Cetas' forming part of the compound word `Adhyatmacetasa'

stands for the mind which has developed faith in God the inner

witness of all hearts, after a due recognition of His virtues, glory

and real nature, and thinking of Him constantly and under every

circumstance. He who dedicates his actions to God with the help of

such a mind realizes God to be almighty, all-pervading and

omniscient, the support of all, the universal Lord, the supreme

object of realization, the supreme goal, the greatest well-wisher,

the best and dearest friend, and supremely kind. Recognizing the body

accompanied by the mind and senses and all their actions as well as

all objects of the world as belonging to God, he renounces all

attachment and the sense of possession with regard to them. He

believes that he is absolutely powerless, that it is God Himself who

lends him the necessary power and is getting everything duly

performed by him according to His own will and that he is a mere tool

in his hands. In this way he regards himself as wholly subordinate to

God, and goes on performing all actions as a mere puppet for His sake

and under His inspiration and guidance, and according to His

directions, mentally renouncing all connection with those actions and

with their fruits, and taking everything as belonging to Him. Such a

man is said to have dedicated all his actions to God with the mind

fixed on Him. Verse 6 of Chapter 12 and verses 57 and 66 of Chap 18

similarly speak of surrendering all actions and duties to God.

The sense of possession, hope and mental fever ceases to exist in him

who has thus dedicated all his actions and duties to God and always

keeps his mind fixed on Him. It is to bring home this truth to Arjuna

that the Lord advises him in this verse to engage himself in the

fight after conquering these evils. The Lord intends to show that

transferring the responsibility for all his actions to Him, Arjuna

should rid himself of all morbid feelings such as hope and the sense

of possession, love and hatred, joy and grief, etc, and should carry

on the fight according to His commands after that.

Therefore, so long as while performing actions or enjoying their

fruit a seeker is found to have the feeling of possession and desire

with regard to those actions and their fruit, or so long as his mind

is subject to morbid feelings such as attraction and repulsion, joy

and grief, etc, it should be clearly understood that all his actions

have not been dedicated to God.

With my warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk

wrote:

>

> advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md@> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > After that wonderful analysis of a very imprtant sloka in Ch 2 by

> > Subbu-ji, let us focus on another sloka in Ch 3.

> >

> > 3.30

September 6, 2006

advaitin, "shyam_md" <shyam_md wrote:

> Going back to the example of the surgeon - his attitude

would/should be "O Omniscient Lord. I am a mere instrument in your

hands. You brought me to this world. By your Grace have some small

skills been imbibed my me whereby You have now given me this ability

as well as opportunity to be of some service in a very limited way

to one of my brothers. My performance of this task is for You alone.

Let my skills, which You alone have imparted, not fail me as I

perform this task."

>

> Adhyatma chetasa refers to this attitude soaked in devotion to the

> Supreme Self whilst engaged in action.

>

> Now if the surgery is successful or not, the surgeon is prepared.

> His mind is at ease, at peace. He can now focus his attention

solely on the job at hand. His entire inner equipments of his mind

and intellect as well as his outer equipments of his hands and eyes

are now completely in sync. His whole being is now focussed wholly

and solely on the action itself - and this lends itself to dexterity

in action - and that the Bhagwan says is what is yoga. "Yoga karmasu

> kausalam"

>

> Shri gurubhyo namah

> Shyam

>

Namaste Shyam ji,

What a wonderful explanation of the true attitude of Karma-Yoga !!

Often a question is raised: If i am not to expect results from my

action, how can that action be efficient? What motivation do i have

left with me if the expectation of the fruits of my action are taken

away (given up, surrendered)? The above analysis of yours has

beautifully proved that actually the action will be immensely

efficient only when the 'jvara' is not there. Tons of thanks for that

excellent way of putting it. I have heard it said that normally

surgeons do not undertake to perform surgical procedures on

relatives/close relatives/friends. It is said that a feeling of

attachment that is natural towards these people intervenes in the

efficiency of surgery. Is that what is observed in real-life

situations? Do you, as a medical person, have to say something about

this?

In the context of 'weapons' with Gods/Goddesses, let me just add that

it symbolises that the 'aasuri' nature in man has to be ruthlessly

put down. The power, shakti, strength that man gets for this is from

the Divine. Just as the Divine is the repository of all daivi sampat

and acquisition of these by us have to be from the Divinity with Its

help, as prasada, the combatting the aasuric nature also is with the

help of the Divine. There is a nice verse conveying this idea:

na devA daNDam AdAya rakShanti pashu-pAlavat

yam hi rakShitum icchanti buddhyA samyojayanti tam

The meaning is: the divinities do not protect others by weilding a

stick like cowherds. When the Gods condescend to protect someone,

they promptly equip him with the necessary intellect for the purpose

of tackling the difficult situation he is faced with.

In the Lalitaa sahasranaama there are several names of the Mother to

convey this. She is 'deva-kArya-samudyutaa' = always ready to help

accomplish the good propositions. Another name says that She has

mounted a horse and is surrounded by millions and millions of horse-

borne armed personnel. All this is to help us in our struggle to

tackle the aasuric nature in us.

I thank Prof.VK ji for his post full of wisdom on the main subject

of this verse.

Pranams,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

September 7, 2006

Fellow Advaitins and gurus.

I am closely following this thread. I am one of those hundreds of

'Silent Majority' of this group. Thanks for this satsang.

I am trying to reconcile in my mind what Science tells the cause for

this manifested world and what Advaita tells. There should be only one

model for the whole creation. I believe that Advaita has fine tuned the

model and can explain better than other isms. The limiting factor for

Advaita is 'Maya' - where reason fails and faith takes over. Other isms

like Dwaita and Visishtadvaita, Christianity & Islam have various

limiting factors and faith takes over from reason at an earlier stage.

They model the manifested as a crude analogy like Newton's models of the

universe. Advaita takes to higher level like Super String theory or

Anthropic principle.

My knowledge in both Advaita and Science is rudimentary as well as

desultory. I am trying to understand the model and tried to put it in my

own words. This is more like a reflection than a statement. I would like

to post it here so that the learned in this group can correct my overall

understanding of Advaita (I know that getting to details will take me a

life time). I request you to consider this as a paper submitted by an

Elementary grader in the august gathering of Physics Professors.

PraNamams

Sudesh

================================================

Basic Modeling of Self using Advaita

Let us start the modeling with birth of human embryo. When Human embryo

is conceived, it has all three Gunas (Tamas, Rajas, and Satvic) in equal

amount. Due to prior life of this embryo, the equilibrium of these three

Gunas is disturbed in such a way that certain Guna becomes dominant in

certain individual, thus developing the "character" and apparent

individuality of the "Self"

The onset of spirituality in this person and the further development of

spirituality in this life also depend on the quality and intensity of

spirituality and the rate of acquiring such spirituality in previous

life. (That probably why some people are born as realized souls like Adi

Sankara or Swami Vivekanda)

This Self acquires Vasanas based on the proportion of Gunas, like the

smell of air in a pot-space depending on the contents of the pot. These

Vasanas are still external to the Self.

The basic assumption here is that the human being has a free will on

how to control his Vasanas and thus changing the proportions of the

three Gunas and thus have more Satvic Guna compared to other two Gunas.

Thus, developing a starting point and slope (rate of development) to

start next life upon death.

All Individual "Self"s need to attain Moksha eventually. It may

take several cycles of Birth and Deaths. How many such cycles depends on

the attainment of Spirituality in each cycle.

In reality all these "Self" s are part of the Supreme Self. All

these Individual Selves (+ other matter and elements) make up the

manifested creation and is a projection of un-manifest. To borrow an

analogy from Physics and cosmology, the Supreme Self is like the Smooth

Space-Time construct and all the Individual "Self"s are the

"Quantum Jitters". However the Science could not tell why the

quantum jitters occur, Advaita says that Supreme Self has created the

manifested world due to His free will. Advaita calls this

"Maya", However Advaita can't go past the question of why

even Maya exists. It is like lamda, the cosmological constant, can't

explain what this is but required to fill the gaps in model. Is

"Maya" where the reason stops and faith takes over in Advaita?

When all the Individual "Self" s reach moksha then there will no

more Quantum Jitters and the manifested world cease to exist. This is

called Pralaya - preparing the next cycle of creation like a

"seed" is ready for manifestation, which the Science calls Big

Bang.

Some Hypothetical Questions

1. Is it possible for all Individual "Self" s to reach

moksha at the same time. Is it called Pralaya?

2. The three gunas and their proportion in human, the control of

Vasanas and thus preparing for next life as a better human, I suppose

they are valid for all other animals, with culmination of life of a

gross human and subsequently to a Supreme Self. Does it also apply to

individual cells at a microscopic level. I read that at embryo stage

all cells are equal, but something triggers to instruct these to form

different organs. (Of course this is assuming that organs have a

hierarchy because of the statement- sarvendriyanam nayanam pradanam).

Does the previous life of cells define what they become?

3. As long as Gunas exist, the "Self" is limited to the

body. What is the state (with respect to Gunas) of the Self at the time

of Moksha (Self Realization).

September 8, 2006

Pranams Sudesh-ji

Nicely put.

Your model is fairly accurate.

Only few suggestions based on my understanding.

1. > When all the Individual "Self" s reach moksha

then

> there will no

> more Quantum Jitters and the manifested world cease

> to exist. This is

> called Pralaya

Pralaya is simply a dissolution of the manifest

creation, AS IS, and this includes dissolution of time

and space as well. It is the sum total prarabdhas of

the existent jivas at the time of pralaya, all lying

in a dormant status, that will re-manifest in the next

cycle of creation and so on, in a timeless cyclic

play. Except for some rare jivas in Brahmaloka, none

else at the time of the cosmic dissolution will attain

moksha.

In fact it is because all these trillions of jeevas

have residual unfructified prarabdha that the next

cycle begins as it were after a period of dormancy.

2.

> In reality all these "Self" s are part of the

> Supreme Self.

could better read as

In reality all this is One Supreme Self or Brahman -

"sarvam khlavidam brahman"

3.

However Advaita can't go past the question of why even

Maya exists. It is like lamda, the cosmological

constant, can't explain what this is but required to

fill the gaps in model. Is "Maya" where the reason

stops and faith takes over in Advaita?

Yes Sudesh. This is how our scriptures try to talk

about Maya

"It (maya) is not existent (as the cause is not

visible), nor non-existent (as the effect is visible

as the phenomenal world), nor both (existent and

non-existent part, as the two are incompatible). It is

not different (from Brahman as it has no independent

existence), nor non-different (as it is not a

substance), nor of both (different and non-different,

as it is an impossibility). It is not possessed of

parts (as the parts are absent in the cause), nor

partless (as the effect is seen possessed of parts),

nor a combination of both. (Thus maya is

indescribable). It is to be discarded by the

realization of oneness of Brahman and the Self; for it

is the cause of illusion. Thus (it is to be

understood)."

Maya is a concept that needs to be understood. It is

not easy, I admit, because your intellect is very much

a product of the very Maya it is trying to understand.

Take the dream example. A dream Sudesh is talking to a

dream Shyam and saying - "can you tell me something

about Maya?" and the dream Shyam says "not really - i

too have only heard about it" Now a Guru, who has seen

the person Sudesh sleeping and dreaming this dream

comes into the dream and says - "Hey guys, all this is

just an illusion, it is a dream that Sudesh created,

and will dissolve into Sudesh alone. The dream Sudesh,

the dream Shyam, the dream intellects of them both are

all nothing but Sudesh and his capacity to veil

himself and at the same time project another illusory

world"

Now if I ask him "how come i see Sudesh and he sees me

and we both see this beautiful dream house we are

sitting in, and drinking this dream hot cup of chai

etc. and you say I am sudesh, this chai is sudesh,

this chair is sudesh - what is all this?",he will say

it is "maya". What is this maya? it is to be

understood to be nonexistent once Sudesh wakes up and

folds up the dream as it were into himself. Then he

can say nothing existed for a second without me. There

really was no subtantive "thing" called Maya separate

from me - ever. Will the now awake Sudesh "know" what

is Maya? - no- it never existed (for him). Will the

dream Sudesh Maya ever "know" what is Maya? he cannot

while in the dream and as even the sleeping Sudesh

wakes up, the dream Sudesh has vanished - *poof*

Maya is - because you experience its effects right

now.

Maya isnt because when you attain selfrealization it

ceases to be.

> 2. The three gunas and their proportion in

> human, the control of

> Vasanas and thus preparing for next life as a

> better human, I suppose

> they are valid for all other animals,

Not just humans or even living things but every

blessed thing in the manifest srshti is a constituent

of the three gunas.

> 3. As long as Gunas exist, the "Self" is

> limited to the body. What is the state (with respect

to Gunas) of the Self at the time of Moksha (Self

Realization).

Selfrealization helps you transcend the gunas to the

extent that you develop the realization that you

yourself are the whole. The gunas are a product of

maya and once you transcend maya or avidya you

transcend the gunas as well( - refer back to dream

example.)

I eagerly look forward to the professors' expositions

and corrections, along with you.

Pranams

Shri Gurubhyo namah

Shyam

September 8, 2006

advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote:

>>

> I eagerly look forward to the professors' expositions

> and corrections, along with you.

>

Namaste

I have only to recall some earlier posts and essays on MAyA:

#26609: Existence of Ishvara: Is it mAyA?

#20103: What does the term mAyA mean?

#20708 & 20714: Interview with mAyA

MAyA the first secret of secrets:

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/livehappily_6.html

Essay on

mAyA:http://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/teachers/maya_profvk.htm

There are likely to be repetitions in the different posts.

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

September 8, 2006

advaitin, "Sudesh Pillutla"

<sudeshpillutla wrote:

>> All Individual "Self"s need to attain Moksha eventually. It may

> take several cycles of Birth and Deaths. How many such cycles

depends on

> the attainment of Spirituality in each cycle.

>

> In reality all these "Self" s are part of the Supreme Self. All

> these Individual Selves (+ other matter and elements) make up the

> manifested creation and is a projection of un-manifest. To borrow an

> analogy from Physics and cosmology, the Supreme Self is like the

Smooth

> Space-Time construct and all the Individual "Self"s are the

> "Quantum Jitters". However the Science could not tell why the

> quantum jitters occur, Advaita says that Supreme Self has created

the

> manifested world due to His free will. Advaita calls this

> "Maya", However Advaita can't go past the question of why

> even Maya exists. It is like lamda, the cosmological constant, can't

> explain what this is but required to fill the gaps in model. Is

> "Maya" where the reason stops and faith takes over in Advaita?

>

> When all the Individual "Self" s reach moksha then there will no

> more Quantum Jitters and the manifested world cease to exist. This

is

> called Pralaya - preparing the next cycle of creation like a

> "seed" is ready for manifestation, which the Science calls Big

> Bang.

>

> Some Hypothetical Questions

>

> 1. Is it possible for all Individual "Self" s to reach

> moksha at the same time. Is it called Pralaya?

Your earlier observation:

All Individual "Self"s need to attain Moksha eventually. It may

> take several cycles of Birth and Deaths. How many such cycles

depends on the attainment of Spirituality in each cycle.

is the best answer to your above question. As ignorance is

subjective to each jiva, its eradication is also subject to how much

effort each puts in to achieve that. As this varies from person to

person, the above question is simply an impossibility. As you have

predicated, even a cell, if it is taken as a jiva, has to put in the

effort to attain moksha. But this will not be possible in its cell-

status. Therefore, for this cell-jiva to attain moksha along with a

very advanced human being sadhaka on the verge of getting moksha in

this birth itself, is an impossibility. That is why, in the

shastras, prapancha, samsara, is said to be 'nitya' in the sense that

it goes on for ever, of course, withing the confines of Maya. It

comes to an end only for that rare jiva who puts in the mega effort

to come out of it by acquiring Atma jnana. That is the reason why

Maya is said to be akshara in the 15th chapter Gita.

>

> 2. The three gunas and their proportion in human, the control of

> Vasanas and thus preparing for next life as a better human, I

suppose they are valid for all other animals, with culmination of

life of a gross human and subsequently to a Supreme Self.

Reply:

To this segment of your second question, this is my understanding:

For all non-human beings, in this world, the present janma that they

have got is only a bhoga-sharira, that is, only to experience their

past karma, evidently not sukrita. They just move on their instincts

for ahara, nidra, bhaya, maithuna (basic bodily instincts). They

have no volition to 'perform' good karma and acquire punyam or do

praayaschitta and cancel past paapam. The dharma shastras and the

Vedas are there only for human beings. A tiger does not acquire

paapam for preying upon a deer. Nor does a deer get punyam

for 'ahimsa' practiced by being a herbivore. So, the 'preparing for

next life' is out of the question for animals.

You further ask:

Does it also apply to individual cells at a microscopic level. I

read that at embryo stage all cells are equal, but something triggers

to instruct these to form different organs. (Of course this is

assuming that organs have a hierarchy because of the statement-

sarvendriyanam nayanam pradanam). Does the previous life of cells

define what they become?

Reply:

That the organ eye is the chief is only an eulogical statement.

There is a story in the Upanishads where each organ leaves, by turn,

on a 'holiday' , the human. When they return they find that the man

has continued to live, managing somehow. But when praana is about to

leave, there is chaos.

Your question is very interesting to me. For, for the past just few

days i have been thinking of a question almost on the above lines. I

wanted to post this and seek opinions from members, especially Shri

Shyam, a man of medicine.

Am I 'one' or 'many'? It is said that the body is made up of

millions of organisms. There are many types as well. When i say i

am so and so and identify with my body, is it that i am identifying

with several 'i's, with several bodies? Is it that i am a

conglomerate of a number of 'persons', just like a bag of rice or

wheat? Am I carrying a number of jivas with varied karmas and

svabhavas in me? For, there are said to be some organisms that do

good to 'me' and some others that are 'harmful' to me. There are

both contributing and destructive forces of organisms in me. Am I a

sort of a microcosmic Hiranyagarbha? Surely for a virus or bacteria

to find a place in Subbu's body has some karma that brings it and

stations it here. Just like one jiva is destined to be born in one

city or village of one continent and another in another. Just like

this body is a bhoga-aayatanam, a place for experiencing effects of

my past karma, is it that my body is a place for experiencing the

past karmas of those organisms that live inside my body? When i take

food, is it that i benefit from it or is it that there are a million

mouths inside my body into which the food goes? And finally, when i

get moksha, the shastra says that the prana of a mukta does not

transmigrate; it dissolves into pancha bhutas here itself. In that

case, what is the fate of those millions of organisms (jivas) inside

my body? Maybe according to their karma, it is just that my body is

no longer a harbour for them, they have to go on as per what is

destined for them henceforth.

Any thoughts on these 'silly' questions? I know it is not worth

spending much time on this. But anyway, just a few thoughts from

others would be nice to read about.

>

> 3. As long as Gunas exist, the "Self" is limited to the

> body. What is the state (with respect to Gunas) of the Self at the

time of Moksha (Self Realization).

Reply:

To that jiva who gets Moksha, the gunas are known to be mithya and

get sublated just like a snake, upon realizing the substratum rope.

The shastra says, when through knowledge avidya is destroyed, the

destruction is of the sa-kaarya avidya. That is, avidya along with

its effects gets destroyed, negated. Since gunas are Maya kaarya,

their destruction is certain from his standpoint.

Thanks for posing questions,

subbu

Om Tat Sat

>

SELF, THE FOCUS OF THE BHAGAVADGITA

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