Caste System – Spiritual Equality Amidst Material Diversity

[Guest guest]

THE SPIRITUAL SCIENTIST

 

CASTE SYSTEM – SPIRITUAL EQUALITY AMIDST MATERIAL DIVERSITY

 

A Cyber Magazine for Those Who Think

 

Vol.4 No.18

 

Caste system is probably among the most talked and most misunderstood current social controversies; misunderstood because it is based on a false premise – caste determination by birth.

 

The Bhagavad-gita (4.13) declares that this social division, known as varnashrama, was based on qualities and activities (guna-karma) – not birth. The Rig Veda ( 10.90.12) compares society to the human body. The brahmanas (thinkers and teachers) are compared to the head of the social body, the kshatriyas (governors and protectors) to the arms, vaishyas (producers and traders) to the belly and shudras (workers and general assistants) to the feet. In our body, one part may be positioned higher than the other, but that is just to facilitate its optimum contribution to the body. Similarly, in the social body, brahmanas (determined by qualities, not birth) are higher in the social hierarchy, but that is just to ensure optimum social utilization of their intellectual abilities. Interestingly, we find similar divisions in a modern MNC – researchers, managers, financers and workers. This division is not discriminatory, but fair, because people are classified not forcibly, but as per their abilities. Intriguingly the Greek philosopher Plato in his The Republic recommends classifying people as per their innate psychophysical natures. No wonder American author Gerald Heard in his book Man, The Master calls the caste system as an "organic democracy" because it:

 

· Provided individual job satisfaction and security

 

· Avoided needless competition and maximized social productivity

 

 

All people in Vedic society knew that they were all spiritual beings, souls, children of God, and that real happiness lay not in transitory material positions, but in everlasting devotion. The lower castes would serve the upper castes, but the upper castes would serve God – visibly. People would thus see, "Our masters are as much servants as we are, albeit serving in a different role." This overarching sense of subordination to God integrated people spiritually despite their material differences.

 

Mark Tully, former BBC correspondent in New Delhi, states in his book No Full Stops in India, "The alienation of many young people in the West and the loneliness of the old show the suffering that egalitarianism inflicts on those who do not win, the superficiality of an egalitarianism which in effect means equal opportunities for all to win and then ignores the inevitable losers. For all that, the elite of India have become so spellbound by egalitarianism that they are unable to see any good in the only institution which does provide a sense of identity and dignity to those who are robbed from birth of the opportunity to compete on an equal footing – caste."

 

In medieval times, characterless power-hungry people born in brahmana families started falsely claiming that caste was hereditary and unchangeable. And thus began the sad history of casteist discrimination. And thus began the unfortunate history of casteist discrimination. Discrimination has victimized the underprivileged, wherever the socially powerful sections became materialistic and exploitative. For example, Native Americans in USA or aborigines in Australia were isolated and crowded into reserves, where they could only atrophy and disappear.

 

Hence to uproot caste conflicts, we need to cure materialism with the antidote of spirituality, which provides inner fulfillment and eradicates the exploitative mentality. Srila Prabhupada, the founder of ISKCON states, "Unless there is awakening of divine consciousness in the individual, there is no use of crying for world peace." We need to certainly correct the casteist wrongs of the past; the deprived sections of society need to be helped. But merely increasing reservations without curing the materialism that spawned discrimination may well lead to a reverse discrimination against the upper castes with an attendant backlash. Therefore let us ourselves individually reserve more of our time, energy and intelligence to understand and apply the timeless spiritual principles that will unify us despite our material diversities.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Bhagavad-gita (4.13) declares that this social division, known as varnashrama, was based on qualities and activities (guna-karma) – not birth.

 

in practice, even in Vedic times varna was determined by birth, more precisely, on mother's varna. exceptions to this rule were exceedingly rare.

 

the daivi varnasrama concept proposed by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura makes varna dependent on guna and karma alone, but implementation of such a system is very difficult in practice. who actually determines your varna? your guru? and how does he know what your varna is, if he cant even recall your name? what if there are differences of opinion between family and guru as to your varna designation?

 

trying to improve on the vedic model is a tough challenge.

[Guest guest]

 

in practice, even in Vedic times varna was determined by birth, more precisely, on mother's varna. exceptions to this rule were exceedingly rare.

 

the daivi varnasrama concept proposed by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura makes varna dependent on guna and karma alone, but implementation of such a system is very difficult in practice. who actually determines your varna? your guru? and how does he know what your varna is, if he cant even recall your name? what if there are differences of opinion between family and guru as to your varna designation?

 

trying to improve on the vedic model is a tough challenge.

 

how were converts to the Vedic religion's varna determined? based on their job before they converted?

[Guest guest]

 

how were converts to the Vedic religion's varna determined? based on their job before they converted?

 

the guru will observe the person and figure out what varna and ashrama is best suited to the individual.

 

it's not up for a democratic vote or personal preferences.

 

In Vedic society everyone has a guru.

[Guest guest]

Can the varna system be properly observed in Kali Yuga, when people's hearts are filled with bigotry and egotism, and they pervert what was never meant to be a system of inequality?

[Kulapavana]

 

In Vedic society everyone has a guru.

 

that is perhaps an overarching conclusion, not based on any shastric references. sudras in vedic society did not have gurus as a rule, but there were very notable exceptions to that rule.

 

as to determining the varna of converts. there are few, if any, shastric references to such cases. in general, if your case was exceptional, guna and karma would be primarily taken into account when considering your varna.

 

how useful is the varna classification today? just as useful as it was then. dont listen to a sudra if you want to know about the meaning of varnashrama system for example

[Guest guest]

 

that is perhaps an overarching conclusion, not based on any shastric references. sudras in vedic society did not have gurus as a rule, but there were very notable exceptions to that rule.

 

as to determining the varna of converts. there are few, if any, shastric references to such cases. in general, if your case was exceptional, guna and karma would be primarily taken into account when considering your varna.

 

how useful is the varna classification today? just as useful as it was then. dont listen to a sudra if you want to know about the meaning of varnashrama system for example

 

are you saying that because a person is born in a certain household they should not have a Guru? your post is very rude toward sudras, and wreaks of elitism and bigotry. What about all the western converts to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, what caste are they, they all have a Guru?

[Guest guest]

 

the guru will observe the person and figure out what varna and ashrama is best suited to the individual.

 

it's not up for a democratic vote or personal preferences.

 

In Vedic society everyone has a guru.

Hari OM:

 

Sorry this looks contradicatory to me, where a Guru selects your Varna, but God punishes you if you break the laws of your Varna (more logically He should punish the Guru for giving you the wrong Varna)

 

As per my understanding (which has only filmsy evidence at the most), when the Individual Jiva (the soul at the beginning which is free from any Karma) descends to enjoy the Earth, it makes a contract with Manu.

 

Manu (or some Rishis) explain the duties and rights of each Varna , the Jiva selects one Varna as per its own choice (because at this point there is no Karma to limit its decision) after the choice is made and agreement is signed, one of the rishi gives the human genetic pool to the Soul, so that it can become the human (The soul is then referred to the Rishis lineage as Gothra)

 

This contract remains in force for 32 crore years (the life time of the Manu), if any soul does not follow the contract it commits sin (i.e., breaking its promise) and following the contract it incurs no sin (as stated in Gita)

 

Unfortunately the memory of this contract fades away with passage of time due to high attraction of sense objects and repeated births and deaths.

[Guest guest]

 

Hari OM:

 

Sorry this looks contradicatory to me, where a Guru selects your Varna, but God punishes you if you break the laws of your Varna (more logically He should punish the Guru for giving you the wrong Varna)

 

As per my understanding (which has only filmsy evidence at the most), when the Individual Jiva (the soul at the beginning which is free from any Karma) descends to enjoy the Earth, it makes a contract with Manu.

 

Manu (or some Rishis) explain the duties and rights of each Varna , the Jiva selects one Varna as per its own choice (because at this point there is no Karma to limit its decision) after the choice is made and agreement is signed, one of the rishi gives the human genetic pool to the Soul, so that it can become the human (The soul is then referred to the Rishis lineage as Gothra)

 

This contract remains in force for 32 crore years (the life time of the Manu), if any soul does not follow the contract it commits sin (i.e., breaking its promise) and following the contract it incurs no sin (as stated in Gita)

 

Unfortunately the memory of this contract fades away with passage of time due to high attraction of sense objects and repeated births and deaths.

 

How does this apply to the 5 plus Billion jivas who have incarnated outside of the Hindu caste system? did they forget to sign a contract when they came down here?

[Kulapavana]

 

are you saying that because a person is born in a certain household they should not have a Guru? your post is very rude toward sudras, and wreaks of elitism and bigotry. What about all the western converts to Gaudiya Vaishnavism, what caste are they, they all have a Guru?

 

that is not what I was saying. I said that in vedic times sudras usually had no gurus. is that not true? I did not say that this is what we should do today. Even devotees with sudra nature should have a guru. Anyway, this is largely a pure theory as even most devotees dont like to talk about their varna. What is your varna, prabhuji? do you live by the rules of that varna?

 

caste does not equal varna. caste system was created by people, varnas are natural divisions given by Krsna. study the two so you can understand the difference.

 

you accuse me of rudenes, bigotry and elitism. perhaps that is true. yet the current caste system in India is far more rude and bigoted than whatever I said here.

 

I said that you should not study varnasrama system from a sudra, because such people usually do not have proper understanding of such matters. social issues are the domain of brahmanas and kshatriyas and you should learn this subject only from them. That is actually Krsna's arrangement, so blame Him if you like.

 

The varna of western converts and for all people in general nowadays should be determined by guna and karma as the samskaras are not very effective in our age (kalau sudra sambhavah - in the age of Kali everyone is sudra by birth).

 

But we should not be eager to talk about varnasrama in society at large unless we take a long, hard look at our own society in that respect. We have far too many vaishyas and sudras pretending to brahmanas and kshatriyas and causing all kinds of havoc in our society.

[Guest guest]

 

that is not what I was saying. I said that in vedic times sudras usually had no gurus. is that not true?

 

I would say it very wrong indeed.

 

Ramananda Raya hailed from the sudra class.

Vidura was a sudra and an incarnation of Yamaraja.

All the great artists and artisans who built all the great temples in India were sudras.

 

Not all sudras are drunkards and woman hunters.

 

Many sudras were skilled artists and public servants.

 

In Vedic culture the Rajarsi was see to it that eveyone had a guru.

 

Brahmins are the gurus for all the other varnas, not just the Ksatriya and Vaisya.

how can you not know that?

 

Brahmins are the gurus of sudras in the Varnashrama system.

[Kulapavana]

 

In Vedic culture the Rajarsi was see to it that eveyone had a guru.

 

Brahmins are the gurus for all the other varnas, not just the Ksatriya and Vaisya.

how can you not know that?

 

Brahmins are the gurus of sudras in the Varnashrama system.

 

exceptions like Vidura, who was born to a sudra mother by a great sage Vyasadeva (brahmana) do not make a trend. how many other examples of sudras with a guru in VEDIC times can you find?

and as I said earlier:

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

"sudras in vedic society did not have gurus as a rule, but there were very notable exceptions to that rule."

------------------

in general sense sudras learned spiritual life from brahmanas but not at all like other varnas. they did not go to brahmana led school, did not observe brahmacarya, did not get a mantra and did not get a sacred thread. read Manu Samhita for details.

 

[Guest guest]

 

exceptions like Vidura, who was born to a sudra mother by a great sage Vyasadeva (brahmana) do not make a trend. how many other examples of sudras with a guru in VEDIC times can you find?

Sudra varna is a legitimate varna of the Varnashrama system.

Nobody in the varnashrama system can be without a guru and still be considered part of the varnashram society.

I think your view of sudras is somewhat distorted.

Vedic sudras were not as degraded and lowly as you might think.

Don't get a sudra confused with a mleccha or yavana.

Vedic sudras had more culture and class than many of the so-called brahmins of the asura-varnashrama that overtook India.

How could an artist sudra paint a portrait of Krishna or Vishnu without some guidance from guru and shastra?

Sudra is a varna or an occupational position. It has nothing to do with the spiritual culture or lack thereof.

Even sudra can be guru also according to proper understanding of shastra.

kiba vipra kiba nayasi sudra kene naya...............

Many Vedic sudras were very elevated and cultured people.

They just happen to be artists or artisans by trade.

[Kulapavana]

 

Sudra varna is a legitimate varna of the Varnashrama system.

Nobody in the varnashrama system can be without a guru and still be considered part of the varnashram society.

 

I think your view of sudras is somewhat distorted.

Vedic sudras were not as degraded and lowly as you might think.

 

 

I never said vedic sudras were degraded as a group, worthless or not legitimate in any way - you just jumped to conclusions. yet, I studied many classical texts to get a better understanding on this issue of social interactions and I find your statements somewhat idealistic, if not utopian. for a dose of reality please study Manu Samhita. without knowing that text, any discussion of vedic varnashram system is incomplete.

 

Certainly not all vedic sudras were degraded yet Ajamila fell for one. Again, more like exception to the rule than the rule.

 

And lastly, the vedic concept of a kula-guru (family guru) was the norm in these days and that needs to be studied as well. The jagat-gurus were rare exceptions to that norm and their participation in social matters was marginal at best. And I would start there if I was to build a varnashrama system. Kula-gurus were always there for people, knew them well and were well known themselves. But they were NOT kings of the village, lords and masters of their flock. Then there were the local administrators who made sure things run smothly and properly, without any abuse. You cant roll brahmana a kshatriya duties into one. That is bogus and a recipe for abuse and failure. Anyway, it is a big subject.

[Guest guest]

Since Hinduism is a religion for all mankind (and not a tribal religion for "brown people" like the Christian missonaries would have us believe), the confusion comes in when people convert to our religion, what caste are they? Outside of Vedic culture there is no such thing as varna system.

 

Organizations like Gaudiya Matha and Saiva Siddhanta Church (and their international magazine Hinduism Today), Mother Amma's international outreach, are presently converting thousands all around the world to the eternal religion - Sanatana Dharma. What varna are these people as they take on the practices and beliefs Vedic religion; like performing daily home pujas, chanting their mantra they received from their Guru, etc?

 

Someone needs to serious address this, so all the thousands of converts of Hinduism can know how to determine their proper varna.. if varna is important for a Hindu.

[Guest guest]

An alternative look at the 'Caste System'

by Raju Patel

 

This article puts another perspective on a phenomenon that no-one usually dares to mention without putting on a grimace of horror and uttering shrieks of indignation: Chaturvarna, usually mistranslated as the caste system.

 

Let me state from the outset that I am a firm believer in the Vedic verse "All men are brothers; no one is big, no one is small. All are equal" (Rig Veda 5.60.5). The four categories of society (varnas) were not originally intended to be hereditary categories. If we look at the matter carefully, they are in fact natural functional groups that exist in all societies. The varnas were originally fluid categories that allowed for mobility between groups.

 

So before anyone begins fuming about Brahmin tyranny and the "wretched condition of the downtrodden", let me clarify that what I mean is not hereditary caste, but the distinction between four functional groups in society: Brahmin (intellectual and spiritual), Kshatriya (military and administrative), Vaishya (commercial) and Shudra (workers), devoid of any hereditary aspect, which was a much later phenomenon.

 

It is a fact of life that many children have a tendency to resemble their parents, not only in appearance but also in aptitudes - whether you put it down to genetic or environmental factors or both. For example, this trend is strengthened by the traditional social setting, in which children would automatically receive training in their parents' professional skills, in the family business or vocation. Nevertheless, the relation between parents and children's aptitudes is not absolute: there are plenty of cases where people have a genuine inclination towards a different kind of profession to their parents. Therefore, the Bhagavad Gita says (apparently against a swelling trend to fix profession on birth) that not birth, but aptitude or quality (guna) determines one's varna. Yuddhistir and later on the Buddha said that moral conduct and mental disposition, not birth, determined who is a Brahmin. Neither should there be any bar to a person changing their field of work later in life.

 

The question is: does the classification of society into four groups or classes still have any relevance or offer any insight into modern issues?

 

If we examine the nature of the interrelationship and interdependency between these four classes of society we can see that they are quite natural, and exist in all societies. All the functions support each other, yet there is a natural hierarchy. The Shudra (the worker who serves an employer, the artist who pleases an audience) is subordinate in the sense that he is employed by the other varnas. The Vaishya (business and entrepreneurial class is subordinate to the public order enforced by the Kshatriya. And the Kshatriya rulers are, in framing their policies, subordinate to the Brahmin realm of literate culture and ideology, because a policy necessarily stems from a political and social philosophy, which is produced by the intellectuals of society.

 

Swami Vivekananda and Sri Aurobindo have sometimes described social and political developments in varna terms. Thus, feudalism over-emphasised the role of Kshatriyas, capitalism is currently over-emphasising the Vaishya element in human nature, and communism was an attempt at Shudra rule and suppressing of the Vaishya. A healthy society needs to balance all four groups, giving honour and the freedom to develop to each. All four groups need to act out of a sense of duty towards the entire society.

 

Another important component of the varna ideology, is the strict separation between the activities of the varnas. An important example in the context of Secularism is the separation between the two authority-wielding varnas, the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas. The Brahmin is the man of knowledge, whose domain is intellectual and universal. The Kshatriya is the man of action, whose authority is political and temporal.

 

The idea of separation between these two varnas can ideally be understood as a separation between the secular domain of action and politics, and the non-secular domain of knowledge and spirituality, similar to the separation of 'Church and State'.

 

The Brahmin and Kshatriya functions have to be kept separate to the greatest extent possible. While it is inevitable that a general framework of values and ideas influences the leadership of a country, rulers should never wage ideological or religious campaigns, they should govern the country with justice, allowing philosophers, intellectuals and religionists the freedom to develop and expound their ideas.

 

Another example of the importance of the separation between the activities of the varnas can be seen in the field of Pharmaceutical research. Pharmaceutical research is an endeavour of expansion of human knowledge, which is a Brahmin activity. However, in the present day it is very profit orientated. For example, more research is done to develop treatment for illnesses that are present in Western populations, even if only very small numbers of people suffer these illnesses or if they are not life-threatening conditions. On the other hand serious diseases that affect huge numbers of people in the developing world are given much less attention. The reason is that there is much more money to be earned in developing treatments for wealthy patients. So the integrity of pharmaceutical research is compromised or even corrupted by purely profit based considerations. This can be understood as an unhealthy mixing of the Brahmin (intellectual) and Vaishya (entrepreneurial) spheres of human activity.

 

Thus it can be seen that even in those countries or situations where no 'caste-system' exists, varna categories can be meaningfully applied. For most Hindus talking about caste has become an untouchable subject but if we get over the prejudices and distortions of our teachings that exist today (in western textbooks as well as amongst Hindus themselves), we can find that Hindu ideas and thought can be meaningfully applied to problems and issues we face today and will face in the future. I hope that this short piece has gone some way to demonstrate that.

[Guest guest]

 

How does this apply to the 5 plus Billion jivas who have incarnated outside of the Hindu caste system? did they forget to sign a contract when they came down here?

Hari OM:

 

There is no such thing like Hindu caste system.

 

Varna is a common precondition for any Jiva wishing to take a man incarnation (women are not bound by Varna duties-- duties are same for all women irrespective of Varna)

 

After selecting Varna the Jiva is free to choose an Istha Devata (the God-form he likes), Kula Devata (The deity being worshipped in his lineage), Grama devata (the deity being worshipped in his locality) , Paramapriya Devata (the deity which is traditionally worshipped). If a jiva changes any of the above four (which inturn will be called the "change of religion") the Varna does not change, the varna remains in yore for 32 crore years until the life of Manu not the the life of Jiva, because Jiva is eternal.

 

There is a fifth caste, generally called outcaste, who just wanted to take human birth without accepting the duties of any four varnas, their wish is also fulfilled with a fifth caste, but generally is looked down by scholars and common mass (since they want to enjoy the human birth without wanting to fulfill the duties of a human--- i can't help if this resembles to more than 90% of the current population)

[Guest guest]

 

After selecting Varna the Jiva is free to choose an Istha Devata (the God-form he likes), Kula Devata (The deity being worshipped in his lineage), Grama devata (the deity being worshipped in his locality) , Paramapriya Devata (the deity which is traditionally worshipped). If a jiva changes any of the above four (which inturn will be called the "change of religion") the Varna does not change, the varna remains in yore for 32 crore years until the life of Manu not the the life of Jiva, because Jiva is eternal.

 

so HOW does one deterime or REMEMBER their varna if their parents are not Hindu? this may even include Indians, as some Indians are born into Sikh, Jain, Muslim or Christian families, which do not believe in the Vedic religion.

 

Since a great percentage of the posters on this forum are Gaudiya Vaishnavas, who follow the Vedic religion, but were not born into a Vedic family, or varna, they will be curious to know what varna they are now that they follow the Vaishnava religion. Or do Vaishnavas not follow this system that you speak of? are you a Smarta? and is this Smarta teaching?

[Guest guest]

 

so HOW does one deterime or REMEMBER their varna if their parents are not Hindu? this may even include Indians, as some Indians are born into Sikh, Jain, Muslim or Christian families, which do not believe in the Vedic religion.

 

Since a great percentage of the posters on this forum are Gaudiya Vaishnavas, who follow the Vedic religion, but were not born into a Vedic family, or varna, they will be curious to know what varna they are now that they follow the Vaishnava religion. Or do Vaishnavas not follow this system that you speak of? are you a Smarta? and is this Smarta teaching?

 

Hari OM:

 

First, Varna and Religion are not related, Varna is the contract a Jiva makes with Manu to get the genetic pool to enter as human. Religion is a collective belief.

 

Varna , or the classification of duties, was there in the past, is in present and will continue, but the name may change

 

--- analysis, learning and dissemantaion of knowledge (earlier done by Brahimns, today by teachers)

 

----- Dispenstation of justice and protection of Citizens (earlier done by Kshatiryas, today by exectuive and Judicary)

 

---- Generation, storage and distribution of wealth ( earlier done by Vaishyas and today by enterpernurers and business man)

 

----- Anything else done in lieu of something (earlier done by Shudras in lieu of foodgrains and today by workers in lieu of currency)

 

If you are unwilling to do your duties, nature (and circumstances) will force you to do that, and even that you will perform, helplessly driven by your inward qualities (ie., the basic contract)---BG

 

Changing religion does not release you from your duties, because there is no clause in the contract which says "you will be bound by the varnas until you are a Hindu" [ In a hurry to get human form, Jivas dont clearly read the indeminty and foreclosure of the contract...]

 

You WILL (AND HAVE TO) do you duties as per Varna you selected in the first place , since that selction happended before powerful deities like Agni Deva,etc.,

 

There are only two choices

 

--- Do your duty grudingly, crying and shouting

----Do your duty willingly

 

If first then no rewards, if second then rewards are there

 

If no reward then no choice, if reward then two choices:

 

--- Enjoy the reward

 

---Sacrifice the reward (Sarva Phala Tyaga)

 

If enjoy the reward then no choice, if sacrifice then two choices:

 

--- get elevated to a higher position (devas, demigods..)

---- get liberated

 

If get elevated then no choice, if get liberated then two choices:

 

---return to your original constitutional position (or mix in brahmajyoti)

--- become a bhakta (loving, devotee of the GOD)

 

A Jiva forgets the contract and hence his duties because of the excessive sense indulgence, and when that is stopped the Jiva will automatically remember back the contract.

 

If even after sincerely trying to remember you can't know which Varna you belong to ,then make a full-hearted request to Krishna and He will help you, because He is in the heart of All, including Manu (your first party to the contract)

[Guest guest]

Where is it stated that Sage Vyas was a brahmin?

 

Secondly, in this day and age international followers of Krishna more or less do any job that they can to maintain themselves simply and pay for their frequent trips to India. They often float from one type of occupation to the other, the main priorities being 1. enough money to pay for a simple lifestyle and trips to India, and 2. enough freedom or leeway to take frequent trips to India. That is why alot of western devottees never stay in one job long enough to make a career out of it. Their main concerns are not society and money, but time for sadhana and trips to India.

[Kulapavana]

 

Where is it stated that Sage Vyas was a brahmin?

 

do you have any doubts in that area? was he a kshatriya? vaishya? sudra?

 

now and then feel free to use your brain for thinking, not just for looking up quotes...

[Guest guest]

 

do you have any doubts in that area? was he a kshatriya? vaishya? sudra?

 

now and then feel free to use your brain for thinking, not just for looking up quotes... [/QUOT

 

Yes I do have some doubt about that. What were the varnas of his mother and father?

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes I do have some doubt about that. What were the varnas of his mother and father?

 

that is irrelevant. his guna and karma are so obvious any consideration of janma is irrelevant. think about Srila Prabhupada for a moment in this context.

[Guest guest]

I think you are confusing the position of the brahmin varna with the position of a vaishnava.

 

I've never seen any sloka referring to Sage Vyas as a "brahmin". If you can provide one, please do.

 

Srila Prabhupada also was not born into a brahmin family nor have I ever seen him described as one.

 

A pure vaishnava transcends the varna system.

 

That being said, if you read the biographies of great vaishnavas, the varna position of their families are usually always mentioned. In the event that the vaishnava was born into a shudra family, it is described, for example, that Sri Shyamsundar dasji was born into a sat-shudra family. Sat-shudra meaning that although engaged in a shudra occupation, the habits and customs of the family were sattvic and hence, favorable to cultivating bhakti.

 

As a side note, varna also means color. There has been some research done on the relationship between skin color and varna (caste or occupation, depending on how one translates it).

 

I don't entirely buy that "varna" was determined in ancient times by a person's inclinations and activities. I do think that what type of family one was born into was also considered, although maybe not as much as in the later developed "caste system". I say this because Karna was refused access to something he was inclined towards and worked for, on the basis of the varna of one of his parents. There are other examples also.

[Guest guest]

the thing about the varna in Vedic society was rather oriented to the family traditional occupation.

Brahmins tried to raise their sons to be brahmins.

Ksatriyas tried to raise their sons to be Ksatriyas

Vaishyas passed on their business trade or farming tradition to their children.

As well, sudras who were laborers, artisans, artists, public service workers etc. usually passed on the family tradition to the children.

 

More often than not, people would be trained and educated in line with the family tradition and it was not all that easy to break out of that and enter into a higher varna than the family tradition hands down.

 

In rare cases there were special circumstances where a child would show a proclivity for the a higher or lower varna than was their family custom.

 

Even though the caste system is ideally based on guna and karma and NOT birth, it was more the exception than the norm that someone could break out of the sudra occupation and acquire a higher type of work.

 

The ideal is guna and karma, but even in Vedic culture there was a general trend towards the family varna.

 

The Hindu concept of "it's their karma" also held that persons of sudra nature were born in sudra families and persons of Brahmin nature were born in brahmin families.

 

Therefore, the breaking out of one's birthright varna was not all that common or easy in a culture where everyone thinks you are a sudra because it's your karma and therefore you were born in a sudra family.