Caste System – Spiritual Equality Amidst Material Diversity

[Guest guest]

 

 

More often than not, people would be trained and educated in line with the family tradition and it was not all that easy to break out of that and enter into a ***higher varna**** than the family tradition hands down.

 

In rare cases there were special circumstances where a child would show a proclivity for the *** a higher or lower varna*** than was their family custom.

 

Even though the caste system is ideally based on guna and karma and NOT birth, it was more the exception than the norm that someone could break out of the sudra occupation and acquire a *****higher type of work****.

 

Hari OM

 

i think it is bascially your assumption that there exists higher and lower Varna and hence higher and lower type of work

 

as far as i had studied and understand there is no vedic or shastric support for your notion, it (specifically BG) states that all varna and types of work are created for the benefit of the society AND for the satisfaction of HIM

 

Yes there is work well done and not so well done, but i don't think any work is automatically classified as a lower type of work and the people who do it are lower type of people.

 

If you have any support for that (ps: not newspaper, magazine articles, or some british experiments/hypothesis--support means vedic support), please post it here.

[Guest guest]

 

Hari OM

 

i think it is bascially your assumption that there exists higher and lower Varna and hence higher and lower type of work

 

as far as i had studied and understand there is no vedic or shastric support for your notion,

 

anyone who has read from Itihasa and Purana can see quite easily that the Brahmin in Vedic society had a higher social position than that of a sudra.

As well, are you trying to tell us that the Ksatriya in Vedic society did not have a higher social status than the sudras?

 

I didn't say anything about "spiritually" higher or lower.

The higher and lower I mentioned is in term of the social status of the four varnas in the Vedic society.

 

If you are trying to say that the social status of sudras was the same as Brahmins in Vedic society, then I would say that you have no real conception of Vedic society.

[Kulapavana]

 

I've never seen any sloka referring to Sage Vyas as a "brahmin". If you can provide one, please do.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.32

etat sam´sucitam´ brahmam´s

tapa-traya-cikitsitam

yad isvare bhagavati

karma brahmani bhavitam

SYNONYMS

etat — this much; sam´sucitam — decided by the learned; brahman — O brahmana Vyasa; tapa-traya — three kinds of miseries; cikitsitam — remedial measures; yat — what; isvare — the supreme controller; bhagavati — unto the Personality of Godhead; karma — one's prescribed activities; brahmani — unto the great; bhavitam — dedicated.

TRANSLATION

O Brahmana Vyasadeva, it is decided by the learned that the best remedial measure for removing all troubles and miseries is to dedicate one's activities to the service of the Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead [sri Krsna]----------------------------

 

Vyasa is described as a brahmana in many places in Puranas and Mahabharata.

 

perhaps your confusion is that if you are a Vaishnava, your varna is completely irrelevant. that is a great over-simplification.

[Guest guest]

Does Vedic society discriminate against people because of what house they are born into? I can't believe this bigotry or class discrimination goes on in Satya Yuga.

 

Modern caste system has made India the laughingstock of the world. It is only a shadow of what the caste system was originally intended to be. Of course many Indian Gurus, Yogis, Pandits, and Sages have condemned the modern caste system and tried to eradicte it from India.. but still some bigots try to hide behind it and justify its abuses.

 

Why do only light-skinned Indians make it in Bollywood movies? we all know darker skinned Indians are often of lower castes. Is it true what the white Aryan Invasion theorists propose that the caste system is based upon an ancient racial superiority instilled among the Dravidians by Aryan invaders? Think hard on this, because you are promoting their theories and feeding the Christian missionary teachings, that the caste system was created by Satan to oppress people.

[Guest guest]

 

anyone who has read from Itihasa and Purana can see quite easily that the Brahmin in Vedic society had a higher social position than that of a sudra.

As well, are you trying to tell us that the Ksatriya in Vedic society did not have a higher social status than the sudras?

 

I didn't say anything about "spiritually" higher or lower.

The higher and lower I mentioned is in term of the social status of the four varnas in the Vedic society.

 

If you are trying to say that the social status of sudras was the same as Brahmins in Vedic society, then I would say that you have no real conception of Vedic society.

Hari OM

 

Any one sees "what they want to see"

 

i accept that i had never seen a vedic society, but i think in all probability you had neither.

 

before we proceed can you be kind enough to explain what is meant by "social status" and where exactly does the term "social status" gets mentioned in the itihasa or purana you read?

 

unless you are able to give specific terms with vedic support , i dont think there is any point of arguing.

 

and please dont make general sweeping statements, newspaper articles, books, or even as the previous poster has done about bollywood (it is beyond my grasp to figure out the relation between varna and race)

 

so my statement is like, varna, according to vedas are a division of society , which divides a jiva as per his gunas and at the very first time, when Jiva is without any guna, it is as per his choice.

 

i am not telling vedic society had no divisions at all, but what i am telling is it had horizontal divisons not vertical ones.

 

if you have anything substantial to quote from authortative source let us

continue, or if you feel you are a genuine victim of Brahmin opression, and your aim is to destroy the varna system, i am sorry i would not be of much help to you , just can assure you that this system will automatically pass away with the advent of Kali you need not strain too much for that.

[Guest guest]

 

Hari OM

 

Any one sees "what they want to see"

 

i accept that i had never seen a vedic society, but i think in all probability you had neither.

 

before we proceed can you be kind enough to explain what is meant by "social status" and where exactly does the term "social status" gets mentioned in the itihasa or purana you read?

 

unless you are able to give specific terms with vedic support , i dont think there is any point of arguing.

 

and please dont make general sweeping statements, newspaper articles, books, or even as the previous poster has done about bollywood (it is beyond my grasp to figure out the relation between varna and race)

 

so my statement is like, varna, according to vedas are a division of society , which divides a jiva as per his gunas and at the very first time, when Jiva is without any guna, it is as per his choice.

 

i am not telling vedic society had no divisions at all, but what i am telling is it had horizontal divisons not vertical ones.

 

if you have anything substantial to quote from authortative source let us

continue, or if you feel you are a genuine victim of Brahmin opression, and your aim is to destroy the varna system, i am sorry i would not be of much help to you , just can assure you that this system will automatically pass away with the advent of Kali you need not strain too much for that.

 

duh, if sudras were equal to brahmins in Vedic society then why were sudras not allowed to perform Vedic scarifices?

 

being sudra has many restrictions in terms of performing Vedic sacrifices.

Even Ksatriyas or Vaisya could not perform sacrifices.

 

the lower status of sudras in Vedic society is quite obvious in the depictions of the Mahabharata and the Puranas etc.

 

You need a reference?

 

Just read the Mahabharata or the Ramayana and see the difference between the Brahmins and sudras in society.

 

Otherwise, your demand for a quote is laughable to anyone who is familiar with the histories of India.

[Guest guest]

the Catholic religion allows anyone to become priests. Do sudras have to convert to Catholic religion to serve God in the priesthood? Can we believe the Catholic religion is really more just and fair towards all people, than the Vedic religion? isn't becoming a priest a spiritual calling, and not a birthright?

[Guest guest]

 

duh, if sudras were equal to brahmins in Vedic society then why were sudras not allowed to perform Vedic scarifices?

 

being sudra has many restrictions in terms of performing Vedic sacrifices.

Even Ksatriyas or Vaisya could not perform sacrifices.

 

the lower status of sudras in Vedic society is quite obvious in the depictions of the Mahabharata and the Puranas etc.

 

You need a reference?

 

Just read the Mahabharata or the Ramayana and see the difference between the Brahmins and sudras in society.

 

Otherwise, your demand for a quote is laughable to anyone who is familiar with the histories of India.

 

Hari OM

 

ok so now moving from vedic to histories(?) of India, fine, then i think not much point in arguing.

 

So my final post for this thread is like

 

-- even though every thing looks quite "obvious" to you from histories of India, it does not appear so to me, probably this may be due to our conditioning of mind and could not think out of the box.

 

Your valid question, "why brahmins were allowed to do sacrifice and sudras are not"-- i will try to answer from my own prespective

 

1) Sacrifice is defined as any work which is done mainly for the satisfaction of Him , without any eye to the reward ( BG)

 

So as per this definition, a Jantor who does his work with the sense of duty and without expecting any reward is a Karma-Yogi who is supposed to have done better "sacrifice" then a priest in the temple who demands money from you for showing the deity.

 

[And a person who does all activity, including eating, sleeping, breathing, walking ... only for the satisfaction of Him and not for his sensual satisifaction, he is the best of all yogis---BG)

 

2) If by "sacrifice" you meant vedic Yagnas (pouring oblations into the sacred fire) then yes it was meant for brahmins, since it suited with their intrisnic duties and it was THEIR KARMA. And NO it was not mentioned as something "Higher" to the KARMA of kshatriyas or Sudras.

 

So every one was told to mind their own business.

 

others were not encouraged to do "Yagnas"

 

brahmins were not encouraged to do other karmas (same Mahabharata you can see how Dronacharya was ridiculed for taking up the duty of a Kshatriya--- i.e, you can "see" if you wanted to)--- even today there is tradition in some villages of not allowing brahmins to set foot on paddy fields (since considred inauspicious, anyhow we are not discussing based on traditions or "histories")

 

 

 

3) Why brahmins were given lessons in Vedas and why sudras were not?

 

Because the natural duty of Brahmin (to learn, analyaze and dessemnate knowledge) requires so, while the natural duty of Sudras (phsyical labor) does not requries so. But Still sudras were given lessons in 8 upavedas (substitue vedas) like art, music, medicine, etc., (each one is covered in individual upaveda, and it is up to you to explain how sudras got this knowledge if brahmins refused to teach them)

 

4) If inspite of such logical and scientific reasoning you seem to think Vedic religion is biased, bigoted and irrational, but some irrational statements like "two metal birds will hit four concerte beasts and 8 plastic reptiles will die (search for nostradamus in web)" of having high significance or statements like a "random big explosion created a beautiful world with such wonderful natural sceneries, language, music, intelligence, order, power (search for bigbang)" having high intelligence, then i am powerless to do anything more for you.

[Guest guest]

 

the Catholic religion allows anyone to become priests. Do sudras have to convert to Catholic religion to serve God in the priesthood? Can we believe the Catholic religion is really more just and fair towards all people, than the Vedic religion? isn't becoming a priest a spiritual calling, and not a birthright?

 

This is ridiculous. Within the circles of those "sects" that refer to either the Vedas or some sort of supplementary "Vedic knowledge" is plenty of oppurtunity for non-brahmin born people to become "priests" or pujaris in temples if they so desire and undergo diksa and appropriate training. You find this throughout the Gaudiya Vaishnava religion, all over India and all over the world.

 

That the oppressed "lower" castes or "backward" castes would embrace Christianity or Islam for the above reason, when within so-called "Hinduism", there are many sects, such as Gaudiya Vaishnava, that gives Krishna mantra to all (hence the adhikar for performing puja in a temple) is simply due to their misinformation about the various sects of Hinduism. Rather than converting to Christianity or Islam, let them join Gaudiya Math, ISKCON, or any traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava sect as you would find throughout Bengal and in Braj, take diksa in Krishna mantra and hence proceed to learn proper archan-puja of the mandir vigraha. Where is the problem?

[Guest guest]

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.32

etat sam´sucitam´ brahmam´s

tapa-traya-cikitsitam

yad isvare bhagavati

karma brahmani bhavitam

SYNONYMS

etat — this much; sam´sucitam — decided by the learned; brahman — O brahmana Vyasa; tapa-traya — three kinds of miseries; cikitsitam — remedial measures; yat — what; isvare — the supreme controller; bhagavati — unto the Personality of Godhead; karma — one's prescribed activities; brahmani — unto the great; bhavitam — dedicated.

TRANSLATION

O Brahmana Vyasadeva, it is decided by the learned that the best remedial measure for removing all troubles and miseries is to dedicate one's activities to the service of the Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead [sri Krsna]----------------------------

 

Vyasa is described as a brahmana in many places in Puranas and Mahabharata.

 

perhaps your confusion is that if you are a Vaishnava, your varna is completely irrelevant. that is a great over-simplification.

 

Actually, that was my point above when I stated that Vaishnavas born into shudra families, despite having diksa, are described as "sat-shudra" in lineage. Becoming a Vaishnava and taking diksa and engaging in Thakur Seva does not a brahmin make. That being said, by virtue of devotion, a Vaishnava transcends all upadhis. But still there is no need to call such a Vaishnava a "brahmin", as the word brahmin does not signify anything important or special to such a vaishnava.

 

Now, as far as Srila Prabhupada, he was not born into a brahmin family, yet he had received "brahmin diksa" in the form of the brahma-gayatri mantra. This mantra is not common amongst Gaudiya Vaishnavas, except for in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math. Brahmin diksa is not Vaishnava diksa. Vaishnava diksa is Krishna-mantra - Gopal mantra and Kama gayatri. Hence most Gaudiya Vaishnavas, whatever caste they may have been born into, are not made into brahmins by virtue of the brahma-gayatri, unless they happen to join ISKCON or Gaudiya Math.

 

In fact, usually it is found that upon diksa into a Gaudiya Vaishnava line, a brahmin will GIVE UP brahma-gayatri at the time of receiving Krishna-mantra.

 

Again, ISKCON and Gaudiya Math are exceptions here.

[Kulapavana]

 

Now, as far as Srila Prabhupada, he was not born into a brahmin family, yet he had received "brahmin diksa" in the form of the brahma-gayatri mantra. This mantra is not common amongst Gaudiya Vaishnavas, except for in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math. Brahmin diksa is not Vaishnava diksa. Vaishnava diksa is Krishna-mantra - Gopal mantra and Kama gayatri. Hence most Gaudiya Vaishnavas, whatever caste they may have been born into, are not made into brahmins by virtue of the brahma-gayatri, unless they happen to join ISKCON or Gaudiya Math.

 

no mantra can change your actual varna as it is based on your guna and karma. in vedic times disciples from different varnas received slightly different Gayatri mantras. just like they wore different clothes, carried different staff, etc.

 

S. Bhaktisiddhanta started the brahmana diksa system for particular reasons, like students from all varnas being able to perform proper temple arcana for example. There is a lot more to it of course, like showing that any Vaishnava can act as a brahmana in society.

[Guest guest]

Kulapavanaji

 

In the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, brahmin diksa is not required to perform archan-puja of Sri Vigraha in Mandir. That is what the Krishna mantra is for (Gopal-mantra and sometimes Kama-gayatri).

 

Are you saying that Srila Prabhupada would have been considered, either by himself or by others, a brahmin if he hadn't taken diksa into brahma-gayatri mantra?

 

On what basis? On the basis that he translated and wrote commentaries to shastras? Is this exclusively the realm of a brahmin? Or is it the realm of a vaishnava?

[Kulapavana]

 

Are you saying that Srila Prabhupada would have been considered, either by himself or by others, a brahmin if he hadn't taken diksa into brahma-gayatri mantra?

 

On what basis? On the basis that he translated and wrote commentaries to shastras? Is this exclusively the realm of a brahmin? Or is it the realm of a vaishnava?

 

you could consider Prabhupada as brahmin based on his guna and karma as listed in Bhagavad-gita, mantra diksa or not. unless you have brahminical qualities, translating and explaining shastra will be a difficult task and results uncertain.

 

Bhaktisiddhanta wanted to take his organization well past traditional GV boundaries and customs. That is why he adopted things like brahma gayatri diksa and Vaishnava sannyasa. He had a very broad vision, not bound by GV tradition.

[Guest guest]

 

Kulapavanaji

 

In the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, brahmin diksa is not required to perform archan-puja of Sri Vigraha in Mandir. That is what the Krishna mantra is for (Gopal-mantra and sometimes Kama-gayatri).

 

Are you saying that Srila Prabhupada would have been considered, either by himself or by others, a brahmin if he hadn't taken diksa into brahma-gayatri mantra?

 

On what basis? On the basis that he translated and wrote commentaries to shastras? Is this exclusively the realm of a brahmin? Or is it the realm of a vaishnava?

 

but, in proper order as per Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, if one is properly trained under the bona-fide spiritual master he will become dvija and receive diksha and brahma-gayatri mantra.

 

 

yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah

 

tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam

 

"As bell metal is turned to gold when mixed with mercury in an alchemical process, so one who is properly trained and initiated by a bona fide spiritual master becomes a brahmana immediately." (Tattva-sagara, quoted in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.12)

[Guest guest]

 

Bhaktisiddhanta wanted to take his organization well past traditional GV boundaries and customs. That is why he adopted things like brahma gayatri diksa and Vaishnava sannyasa. He had a very broad vision, not bound by GV tradition.

 

very much so.

in fact, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja fulfilled the actual desire of Mahaprabhu by presenting the Gaudiya culture in the proper Vedic structure that it truly deserves and NEEDS.

 

The idea was to make Gaudiya Vaishnavism a world class philosophy and take it out of the babaji cults and the stagnant situation it was suffering from.

[Guest guest]

 

but, in proper order as per Hari-Bhakti-Vilasa, if one is properly trained under the bona-fide spiritual master he will become dvija and receive diksha and brahma-gayatri mantra.

 

 

In the sloka qouted above;

 

yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah

 

tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam

 

"As bell metal is turned to gold when mixed with mercury in an alchemical process, so one who is properly trained and initiated by a bona fide spiritual master becomes a brahmana immediately." (Tattva-sagara, quoted in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.12)

 

There is no word "brahmin" there. Dvijatvam jayate simply means twice born. One is born first from the womb, a second time via diksa. No mention of brahma-gayatri or brahmin diksa here either.

[Guest guest]

 

In the sloka qouted above;

 

yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah

 

tatha diksa-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam

 

"As bell metal is turned to gold when mixed with mercury in an alchemical process, so one who is properly trained and initiated by a bona fide spiritual master becomes a brahmana immediately." (Tattva-sagara, quoted in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.12)

 

There is no word "brahmin" there. Dvijatvam jayate simply means twice born. One is born first from the womb, a second time via diksa. No mention of brahma-gayatri or brahmin diksa here either.

 

 

Gimme a break.

Show me any example of a dvija in the Vedic system that did not receive brahma-gayatri?

Dvija refers to upaniti - receiving the sacred thread and the brahma-gayatri mantra.

 

The Goswamis went to great pains to present the Gaudiya siddhanta within the authority of Vedic shastra, so please don't try and tell us that the Gaudiya conception of dvija is any different than the Vedic conception of dvija.

 

Traditional Vedic culture in Brahmanism most definitely required the twice-born to receive sacred thread and brahma-gayatri from the guru.

 

The babaji sects of braja are not representing the Gaudiya culture within the framework of the varnashrama dharma that Mahaprabhu wanted for his movement.

 

So, to try and establish their practices and methods as the standard of Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not in perfect accord with the full-fledged mission of Sri Caitanyadeva.

 

Babajis should just stay in their huts and take hari-nama 24-7 and let the parivrajakacharya sannyasis take Krishna consciousness all over the world.

 

That's closer to the actual Vedic concept than having neophytes trying to convert the babaji sects into an international movement as if it is anything representative of Vedic society.

[Guest guest]

Don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm talking about "babajis" anywhere. Have I mentioned that word?

 

I'm just saying that in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, vaishnava diksa is with Krishna mantra and sometimes Kama gayatri. And that is one's second birth.

[Guest guest]

Don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm talking about "babajis" anywhere. Have I mentioned that word?

 

I'm just saying that in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, vaishnava diksa is with Krishna mantra and sometimes Kama gayatri. And that is one's second birth.

[Guest guest]

Much is made about the state of "untouchables" in India, even today.

 

My question is, in such an over-populated country, where every form of public transportation is filled to the brim, how does untouchability play out?

 

I have lived in India for some years and I have yet to see someone not touching somebody else on public transportation.

 

Is "untouchability" simply a myth?