Guest guest Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 OM NAMAH SIVAYA thanks chris, as always i feel i benefit greatly from your words. i don't really know much about karma but your post brought a couple thoughts to mind. it seems the pain and suffering endured in people's lives may not be as much punishment for past actions as they may be simply events that best spur along the soul's evolution. ie. develop unattachment in us or simply to bring us closer to God. also your talk of everything being connected made me think that when the world's calamities take place, where groups of people suffer, maybe those who are enduring the suffering don't necessarily have bad karma but instead are earning great merit by helping instill love, compassion, and unity in humanity, or in some way help the soul's evolution in those of us who are "unaffected." some say we choose our situations before birth, so who knows maybe those that suffer so greatly are really on the fast track to remembering. a friend once told me remember was really two words. re and member. we once were members in god's kingdom and the soul suffers so that we once again become members. we must renew our membership with God. i think in the end it's like you said, it's all about faith and trust in God, as the nature of the world is such that it's beyond intellectual understanding. maybe only Divine Mother knows whys. JAI MAA , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956 wrote: > > Saswati, > > Please forgive me for replying to this post late. I have missed the > last few days. Generally, I don't respond when the posts are this old, > but your post just pulled at my heart. > > May Divine Mother bless you! May She help you to understand, and may > She help you to accept what has happened to you, and the horror of it > you endure again and again as the images of it keep bubbling up from > within. > > I am not an expert on karma, so please accept what I have to say as > simply my own imperfect conception (an educated one, I hope). > > Shree Maa has said that nothing happens by accident. I have to accept > that (though I admit part of me rebels at that). > > That said, Swami Rama said that karma is group as well as individual. > This makes sense to me, since much of what we experience as > individuals reflects the state of the world we live in. > > Swami Satyananda said after the tsunami in South Asia that Bhur Devi > had shivered under the weight of the suffering in the world (that was > from memory-probably not his exact words). Maa asks that we do our > practices for the benefit of the world, saying that if we do so we can > make this world a beautiful, peaceful place. > > So, we have people in poor countries who are experiencing wars and > famines, who generally suffer a great deal, whose lives are very > difficult, and people in countries like the USA who largely experience > the normal pains of human life, death, loss, and illness, but whose > lives are otherwise peaceful and easy. > > These two experiences of life are diametrically opposed, and yet, if > the sages are correct, they are linked. It is very deep, very mysterious. > > There are many people living, say, here in the USA, who seem to me to > deserve to live in more difficult circumstances (closer to hell, as it > were), and people in difficult environments who through their goodness > and ability to inspire those around them seem to deserve a better life > in better surroundings. How does one make sense of such things. > Ultimately, I think it is a matter of faith, until such time as one > attains to the consciousness of divinity. > > There is, however, one final piece to this puzzle of karma. How does > group karma interact with individual karma? > > It is readily apparent that one living in a poor place during a famine > is more likely to go hungry or become ill. One living in a peaceful > place with a good economy is less likely to become a victim of > violence or other suffering. But individuals in both circumstances do > experience the opposite of what is generally true of the group, > violence and suffering in the midst of peace and plenty, and health > and plenty in the midst of poverty and famine. These differences, I > think, can only be explained by individual karma. > > You asked: > it is pssible that in my last life I did > > something so evil that my I am now the victim of my own previous sins? > > My short answer to that would be "Yes." > > But I don't think it's quite as simple as saying you must have been > "something so evil". I think (remember, it's just me thinking > here)that our group karma (and group karma includes not just our > neighborhood, city, and country, but ultimately the world) leaves us > open as individuals to the experience of certain unpleasant > circumstances, even if we don't, individually, have a strong karmic > requirement for them. > > Remember, if the sages are right, we have all of us lived countless > lives, and so have a great store of karmas we carry from lives we > cannot comprehend. > > So, in the absence of any contradicting individual karma, we might > experience great suffering, simply because the world as a whole suffers. > > Think of it this way. If a man from a peaceful, affluent neighborhood > in the states goes into a "bad" area of town late at night and just > walks around looking wealthy, he is likely to be robbed and perhaps > beaten or killed. If he had stayed in his own neighborhood it likely > wouldn't have happened. This is an example of group karma (violence > and poverty in the world-for which we all share responsibility) being > played out individually, because of an unwise choice of activities on > the part of the man. > > On the other hand, if there is a strong element of good karma in a > person, it doesn't seem to matter what her circumstances, her > surroundings, are. Nothing "bad" will happen. > > Take the example of a plane crash. All are killed but one. Who can > explain such an occurrence except that the person had such a strong > karma against death or injury that despite all the others being killed > she survived without a scratch. > > On the other hand, take the example of a plane crash where all died. > How unlikely is it that an entire planeload of individuals were > "scheduled" to die on that specific day, or even that year? I think > very unlikely. It seems far more likely to me that none of them > possessed a strong enough karma for living to escape their > circumstances. Had they stayed at home, most of them likely would have > continued in their bodies for a time. > > All of this may seem somewhat disjointed, and it is. I don't have "the > answers". These are simply the various aspects of karma as I see them. > Somewhere in the midst of them all lies the reality. > > I know that an understanding of karma will not go far toward easing > your pain, but it will help. Especially, I think, you can understand > that on some level your suffering is not yours alone, but the world's. > > Post traumatic experiences can be very difficult. It can take a long, > long time (if ever) to become "yourself" again. It will get better > with time, even if you do nothing, but one will heal much faster and > much better if she can open her heart and develop a firm faith and a > regular sadhana. > > You mentioned yoga and meditation. I think hatha yoga would be good > for you. The postures and the pranayama help unblock the flow of prana > in the subtle body, which is also the vehicle for the emotions. You > can unblock the pain and strengthen the nadis so that intense emotion > will be less disruptive. > > Meditation practice, on the other hand, in my opinion, would be less > beneficial that other things. You'ld probably do a lot better learning > to do puja or practicing regular mantra japa or path (recitation of > scripture). Later, when the emotions and mind have been purified a > little from this stress, meditation will come of its own accord. > > I cannot answer "why" for you, except to say that in this world > sometimes we suffer. Should God have chosen another to suffer in your > place? Are you any less, or more deserving than another? I cannot say. > But this much I have from the sages, that God is not the cause of any > of the suffering in this world, we are. Just as we create the > circumstances for suffering in this world, so can we create the > circumstances for peace. This is Shree Maa's desire for us. > > May God bless you and help you to burn this experience in the fire of > knowledge and devotion. > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > > > > , "sbramaswami" > <saswati_ramaswami@> wrote: > > > > What an interesting discussion. Thank you all for letting me take > part. I have a question > > regarding Chris' earlier thoughts on whether "bad" things can happen > to a person and how > > to allow oneself to make friends with all experiences. I have some > very traumatic, violent > > experiences in my past. When these memories come back up what do I > do? How do I > > reconcile myself with them? I try to accept them by telling myself > that there is a greater > > reason for everything, but I just don't understando. it is pssible > that in my last life I did > > something so evil that my I am now the victim of my own previous > sins? It certainly > > doesn't bring me solace to think that I could have behaved this way > toward another being. > > Also, I do not know how to feel about my offender. Is it right to > feel anger and bitterness > > toward him or the things that he did to me? Or should I accept him > and forgive him, as he > > was only a vehicle for carrying out my karma? When these > experiences come up, I feel > > tremendous sadness and instability. How do I deal with this? Do I > just surrender to the > > pain, as I have been trying? How do I try to stop asking "WHY", as > I have been trying, > > unsuccessfully? What can be the greater lessson in experiencing > torture? How does this > > type of experience help a person grow? I keep asking God whether > there wasn't a different > > way that I could have learned the same lesson. How do I "show > respect" to these > > memories, to this time in my life, to my offender? I know that the > ultimate answer is to > > learn to detach from all of this through mediation and yoga. This is > my greatest goal, > > though sometimes I feel I am so far from reaching it. Any advice > would be so appreciated. > > Much love and respect for all. > > > > Saswati > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Hi Eric, Don't like punishment, huh? Swamiji said in, I think Before Becoming This, that we may choose to suffer in our next life and choose accordingly where we will be born. I think it's as you suggested, always about progression toward divinity - not really about the punishment. We focus on the punishment part because it's so unpleasant, to be in, or to observe. The merit part is certainly a possible, even likely, aspect of karma to me, and it really suggests the complexity of karma, which is really Divine Mother (divinity in action), after all. Jai Maa! Chris , "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us wrote: > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > thanks chris, as always i feel i benefit greatly from your words. i > don't really know much about karma but your post brought a couple > thoughts to mind. it seems the pain and suffering endured in > people's lives may not be as much punishment for past actions as > they may be simply events that best spur along the soul's evolution. > ie. develop unattachment in us or simply to bring us closer to God. > > also your talk of everything being connected made me think that when > the world's calamities take place, where groups of people suffer, > maybe those who are enduring the suffering don't necessarily have > bad karma but instead are earning great merit by helping instill > love, compassion, and unity in humanity, or in some way help the > soul's evolution in those of us who are "unaffected." some say we > choose our situations before birth, so who knows maybe those that > suffer so greatly are really on the fast track to remembering. a > friend once told me remember was really two words. re and member. > we once were members in god's kingdom and the soul suffers so that > we once again become members. we must renew our membership with God. > > > i think in the end it's like you said, it's all about faith and > trust in God, as the nature of the world is such that it's beyond > intellectual understanding. maybe only Divine Mother knows whys. > > JAI MAA > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956@> wrote: > > > > Saswati, > > > > Please forgive me for replying to this post late. I have missed the > > last few days. Generally, I don't respond when the posts are this > old, > > but your post just pulled at my heart. > > > > May Divine Mother bless you! May She help you to understand, and > may > > She help you to accept what has happened to you, and the horror of > it > > you endure again and again as the images of it keep bubbling up > from > > within. > > > > I am not an expert on karma, so please accept what I have to say as > > simply my own imperfect conception (an educated one, I hope). > > > > Shree Maa has said that nothing happens by accident. I have to > accept > > that (though I admit part of me rebels at that). > > > > That said, Swami Rama said that karma is group as well as > individual. > > This makes sense to me, since much of what we experience as > > individuals reflects the state of the world we live in. > > > > Swami Satyananda said after the tsunami in South Asia that Bhur > Devi > > had shivered under the weight of the suffering in the world (that > was > > from memory-probably not his exact words). Maa asks that we do our > > practices for the benefit of the world, saying that if we do so we > can > > make this world a beautiful, peaceful place. > > > > So, we have people in poor countries who are experiencing wars and > > famines, who generally suffer a great deal, whose lives are very > > difficult, and people in countries like the USA who largely > experience > > the normal pains of human life, death, loss, and illness, but whose > > lives are otherwise peaceful and easy. > > > > These two experiences of life are diametrically opposed, and yet, > if > > the sages are correct, they are linked. It is very deep, very > mysterious. > > > > There are many people living, say, here in the USA, who seem to me > to > > deserve to live in more difficult circumstances (closer to hell, > as it > > were), and people in difficult environments who through their > goodness > > and ability to inspire those around them seem to deserve a better > life > > in better surroundings. How does one make sense of such things. > > Ultimately, I think it is a matter of faith, until such time as one > > attains to the consciousness of divinity. > > > > There is, however, one final piece to this puzzle of karma. How > does > > group karma interact with individual karma? > > > > It is readily apparent that one living in a poor place during a > famine > > is more likely to go hungry or become ill. One living in a peaceful > > place with a good economy is less likely to become a victim of > > violence or other suffering. But individuals in both circumstances > do > > experience the opposite of what is generally true of the group, > > violence and suffering in the midst of peace and plenty, and health > > and plenty in the midst of poverty and famine. These differences, I > > think, can only be explained by individual karma. > > > > You asked: > > it is pssible that in my last life I did > > > something so evil that my I am now the victim of my own previous > sins? > > > > My short answer to that would be "Yes." > > > > But I don't think it's quite as simple as saying you must have been > > "something so evil". I think (remember, it's just me thinking > > here)that our group karma (and group karma includes not just our > > neighborhood, city, and country, but ultimately the world) leaves > us > > open as individuals to the experience of certain unpleasant > > circumstances, even if we don't, individually, have a strong karmic > > requirement for them. > > > > Remember, if the sages are right, we have all of us lived countless > > lives, and so have a great store of karmas we carry from lives we > > cannot comprehend. > > > > So, in the absence of any contradicting individual karma, we might > > experience great suffering, simply because the world as a whole > suffers. > > > > Think of it this way. If a man from a peaceful, affluent > neighborhood > > in the states goes into a "bad" area of town late at night and just > > walks around looking wealthy, he is likely to be robbed and perhaps > > beaten or killed. If he had stayed in his own neighborhood it > likely > > wouldn't have happened. This is an example of group karma (violence > > and poverty in the world-for which we all share responsibility) > being > > played out individually, because of an unwise choice of activities > on > > the part of the man. > > > > On the other hand, if there is a strong element of good karma in a > > person, it doesn't seem to matter what her circumstances, her > > surroundings, are. Nothing "bad" will happen. > > > > Take the example of a plane crash. All are killed but one. Who can > > explain such an occurrence except that the person had such a strong > > karma against death or injury that despite all the others being > killed > > she survived without a scratch. > > > > On the other hand, take the example of a plane crash where all > died. > > How unlikely is it that an entire planeload of individuals were > > "scheduled" to die on that specific day, or even that year? I think > > very unlikely. It seems far more likely to me that none of them > > possessed a strong enough karma for living to escape their > > circumstances. Had they stayed at home, most of them likely would > have > > continued in their bodies for a time. > > > > All of this may seem somewhat disjointed, and it is. I don't > have "the > > answers". These are simply the various aspects of karma as I see > them. > > Somewhere in the midst of them all lies the reality. > > > > I know that an understanding of karma will not go far toward easing > > your pain, but it will help. Especially, I think, you can > understand > > that on some level your suffering is not yours alone, but the > world's. > > > > Post traumatic experiences can be very difficult. It can take a > long, > > long time (if ever) to become "yourself" again. It will get better > > with time, even if you do nothing, but one will heal much faster > and > > much better if she can open her heart and develop a firm faith and > a > > regular sadhana. > > > > You mentioned yoga and meditation. I think hatha yoga would be good > > for you. The postures and the pranayama help unblock the flow of > prana > > in the subtle body, which is also the vehicle for the emotions. You > > can unblock the pain and strengthen the nadis so that intense > emotion > > will be less disruptive. > > > > Meditation practice, on the other hand, in my opinion, would be > less > > beneficial that other things. You'ld probably do a lot better > learning > > to do puja or practicing regular mantra japa or path (recitation of > > scripture). Later, when the emotions and mind have been purified a > > little from this stress, meditation will come of its own accord. > > > > I cannot answer "why" for you, except to say that in this world > > sometimes we suffer. Should God have chosen another to suffer in > your > > place? Are you any less, or more deserving than another? I cannot > say. > > But this much I have from the sages, that God is not the cause of > any > > of the suffering in this world, we are. Just as we create the > > circumstances for suffering in this world, so can we create the > > circumstances for peace. This is Shree Maa's desire for us. > > > > May God bless you and help you to burn this experience in the fire > of > > knowledge and devotion. > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , "sbramaswami" > > <saswati_ramaswami@> wrote: > > > > > > What an interesting discussion. Thank you all for letting me take > > part. I have a question > > > regarding Chris' earlier thoughts on whether "bad" things can > happen > > to a person and how > > > to allow oneself to make friends with all experiences. I have > some > > very traumatic, violent > > > experiences in my past. When these memories come back up what > do I > > do? How do I > > > reconcile myself with them? I try to accept them by telling > myself > > that there is a greater > > > reason for everything, but I just don't understando. it is > pssible > > that in my last life I did > > > something so evil that my I am now the victim of my own previous > > sins? It certainly > > > doesn't bring me solace to think that I could have behaved this > way > > toward another being. > > > Also, I do not know how to feel about my offender. Is it right to > > feel anger and bitterness > > > toward him or the things that he did to me? Or should I accept > him > > and forgive him, as he > > > was only a vehicle for carrying out my karma? When these > > experiences come up, I feel > > > tremendous sadness and instability. How do I deal with this? > Do I > > just surrender to the > > > pain, as I have been trying? How do I try to stop > asking "WHY", as > > I have been trying, > > > unsuccessfully? What can be the greater lessson in experiencing > > torture? How does this > > > type of experience help a person grow? I keep asking God whether > > there wasn't a different > > > way that I could have learned the same lesson. How do I "show > > respect" to these > > > memories, to this time in my life, to my offender? I know that > the > > ultimate answer is to > > > learn to detach from all of this through mediation and yoga. > This is > > my greatest goal, > > > though sometimes I feel I am so far from reaching it. Any advice > > would be so appreciated. > > > Much love and respect for all. > > > > > > Saswati > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.