Sri Shankaracharya on Sushupti and Moksha

[Guest guest]

Namaste Advaitins,

I have been reading with interest the

discussion re samadhi and realisation. Br.Vinayakaka's reference to

Brh.Up IV.iii.34 I think would have

"It has also been stated that identity with all, which is its nature -

its transcendent form, in which it is free from all such relative

attributes as ignorance, desire and work - is directly experienced in

the state of profound sleep" as the core. What is the purport of this?

That whole section IV.iii is a continuous examination of the modalities

of consciousness. Why does he regard sushupti as so important? You

will recall that in Chap.II of Upadesasahasri it is taken to be the

indicator par excellence of the nature of consciousness. In the

commentary on IV.iii.21 Shankara has this to say about Sushupti:

"In states other than that of profound sleep, i.e. in the waking , and

dream states, things are separated, as it were, from the self and are

desired as such. But to one who is fast asleep, they become the self,

since there is no ignorance to project the idea of difference."

 

When however he brings in the topic of realisation he compares it

directly with samadhi and sushupti c.f. B.S.B. II.i.10:

"As in natural slumber and samadhi (absorption in divine consciousness),

though there is a natural eradication of differences, still owing to the

persistence of the unreal nescience, differences occur over again when

one wakes up, similarly it can also happen here."

 

As a teacher Shankara would naturally focus on the experience that is

accessible to all and try to develop the insight into the nature of

consciousness that this reveals. Metaphorically I think of sushupti as

the 'dark' samadhi. This teaching is peculiar to advaita.

Superconscious states occur naturally and spontaneously everywhere and

they are understood variously. The wisest counsel seems to be that they

are not to be sought as a goal but accepted as a grace if they occur.

 

Pardon me if I have tediously gone over ground covered already,

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <ramvchandran

wrote:

>

> Namaste Vinayakji:

>

>

>

> I have been following the discussions as much as possible between

> you, Subbuji, Shyamji, Bhaskarji and others. Discussions of

similar

> kind on this topic has happened before and over 1600 previous

> postings in this list focus on the subject matter of Samadhi.

 

There

At the same time, honestly speaking, I couldn't regard

> him as an authority for the `advaita philosophy as put forward by

> Sankara.' Please note that this is just my opinion. I also belive

> that his focus was mostly on spreading basic Hindu Philosophy to

the

> skeptical westerners who showed reluctance and resistance.

>

>

> In our Hindu philosophical systems which include advaita, the

> scriptures play the central role as an authority to resolve issues

> pertain to any religious assertions. Here again, the scriptural

> authority is hierachical - for example 'Sruti' has higher

authority

> over Smriti. In a similar way for Advaita related philosophical

> assertions attributable to Sankara will naturally enjoy higher

> authority than the assertions from others. I am of the opinion

that

> some boundary as defined above are necessary, otherwise, we will

be

> left with more confusion and frustration.

 

Dear Sir,

 

What you say about the guidelines to be followed by the group

members is perfectly alright. We are all friends journeying towards

turth. We learn and progress quickly by respecting each others view

than hostility towards each other. Infact i was expecting a much

stroger post from you :-))

 

As far as Authority of Swami Vivekananda is concerned i do respect

your personal honest opinion. First and foremost teachings of Sri

Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda is that there should not be

sectarianism and dogmatism. Each one is free to choose his own

spiritual ideal which suits his background and temperment. I will

try to resume the discussion after a pause with primary focus on the

scriptures and the Shankara. I am perfectly at home with his

teachings.

 

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

 

Yours in the lord,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Shyam <shyam_md wrote:

 

> Pranams Vinayaka-ji,

> Let me reproduce to you your original question which

> started this thread.

>> My very best wishes to you.

> May Ishwara bless us with right knowledge.

 

Dear Sir,

 

I am really sorry to use such strong words against you which might

have hurted you. I do not want to justify it. I was just carried

away with the discussion :-)

 

Dont take the comment of your young friend seriously.

 

May the lord bless us with right knowledge as per your benevolent

prayer.

 

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

 

Yours truely,

 

Br. Vinayaka

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Harsha wrote:

 

> Is there a reference to that? To me, it is highly doubtful Sri

Ramana

> said that.

>

> Harsha

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Vinayaka wrote:

 

As I recall Sri Ramana said his sadhana lasted about half an hour or so.

The samadhis and trance states which only had an appearance of sadhana

to onlookers came later on when he had reached Arunachala. There was no

conscious sadhana on part of Sri Ramana. Just like a person is

overpowered with sleep, Samadhi overcomes a yogi. The difference is that

the sleep is entered unconsciously by the mind. In Samadhi, the

consciousness is unbroken going into it and coming out.

 

Harsha

>

> In advaitin <advaitin%40>,

> Harsha wrote:

>

> > Is there a reference to that? To me, it is highly doubtful Sri

> Ramana

> > said that.

> >

> > Harsha

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In the commentary on IV.iii.21 Shankara has this to say about Sushupti:

"In states other than that of profound sleep, i.e. in the waking , and

dream states, things are separated, as it were, from the self and are

desired as such. But to one who is fast asleep, they become the self,

since there is no ignorance to project the idea of difference."

 

praNAms prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks for the appropriate quote from bruhadAraNyaka bhAshya...On the same

lines shankara upholds the jIva's identity with brahman elsewhere in sUtra

bhAshya also...He says there, there is no time when jIva has not become one

with brahman for one's intrinsic nature cannot be alienated. Only in view

of the seeming foreign aspect which he *assumes* in dream & waking owing to

contact with conditioning associates (upAdhi-s) it is proposed to say that

he attains his own form on the dissolution of that foreign aspect...And he

further confirms his declaration by clarifying why jIva is conscious in

deep sleep is because of absolute unity with pure being...

 

As against this clear statement from shankara, what we are seeing here

today is really ominous...people are propagating the views like nirvikalpa

samAdhi is the must for advaita realisation, we need to do routine exercise

to keep this brahma jnAna intact, there is a bIja rUpa avidyA in deep

sleep, there is ONLY partial oneness (mAtraya paramArtha bhAvaH asserts

bhAmati vyAkhyAnakAra), and avidyA as a positive entity cannot be removed

owning to the absence of the knowledge ..etc. etc...

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms Sri Sundar Rajan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Good to see you back on the forum :-)

 

bhaskar :

 

Welcome back prabhuji...its been a long time since we met on the cybernet

:-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Just a quick note on the above. The sustained *effort* is not to

maintain the jnana. The sustained effort (according to the scriptures)

is to remove the viparita bhavana (wrongful identification) and this

is where Nirvikalpa Samadhi plays a pivotal role.

 

bhaskar :

 

perhaps I have not understood properly here AchArya's words...let me

reproduce it for your ready reference :

 

// quote //

 

A: Normally, it is not sufficient. During nirvikalpa-samadhi the

Atman is experienced. After emergence from that state, the experience

gradually begins to fade. However, just after coming down from it,

everything is perceived as Atman. Nothing distinct from the Atman is

discerned. To cite an example, one feels, "I am a big ocean. It is in

me that the bubbles constituted by the world are produced." The

experience of nirvikalpa-samadhi must be had to be understood. Verbal

descriptions are woefully inadequate. If one gets the experience of

nirvikalpa-samadhi repeatedly, one's Jnana becomes stable. After the

realization becomes stable, the mind is destroyed and one becomes a

jivanmukta.

 

// unquote //

 

Here what AchArya saying (if I am right) to *maintain* brahmAtma jnAna or

to cognize everything as *Atman* the repetitive experience of NS is

required...Please note here AchArya not mentioning anything about gradual

eradication of *viparIta bhAvana*....instead, he is insisting on continuous

effort to *maintain* jnAna.

 

The question needs to be answered here is: "is there any fall back from

the absolute state of knowledge" from the above para, it appears the

answer is yes...but shruti says brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati, nEha nAnasti

kiNchana, chidhyantE sarva saMshayaha etc. If the jnAna what is achieved

in NS is absolute knowledge then it cannot fade away at any point of time,

coz. very nature of brahma jnAna is beyond the concept of time & space

(dEsha & kAlAtIta paramArtha satya)..since Acharya himself saying above

*the jnAna* attained in NS goes away gradually & loses its intensity, then

we will have to accept that what is *achieved* in NS is not advaita

paramArtha jnAna or everlasting nondual knowledge of Atman but a

*temporary* time bound *kshaNika jnAna*..is it not?? dont you think here

*jnAna* gained from the experience of NS is something different from

*shruti vAkya janita* paramArtha jnAna prabhuji??

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Repeated abidance in N.S. helps eleminate the wrongful notion that one is

the body, mind

etc. Questions such as the one you have posed resolve itself if N.S's role

is understood correctly as a integral part of the Nidhidhyasana process.

 

bhaskar :

 

shankara extensively deals with this ajnAna/adhyAsa/avidyA in his preamble

to vEdAnta sUtra bhAshya (adhyAsa bhAshya)...but nowhere he mentioned *the

experience of NS* is must for the eradication of dEhAtma buddhi..instead of

that he insisted on *nityAnitya vastu vivEka* it is inclined more towards

*vichAra/jnAna mArga* and NOT the experience of supernatural state of NS.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Please refer to a recent message I posted #32746 and an excellent

note posted by Sri Peter-ji #32820. Just as a side note, Sankara's

commentary on the Mandukya 7th mantra clearly explains that the

final transition is instantaneous (message #32589).

 

bhaskar :

 

First, I shall look into the shankara bhAshya on mAndUkya maNtra since

shankara bhAshya on prasthAna traya is of primordial importance to me in

*shankara siddhAnta nirNaya*..In the meanwhile you can educate me about the

gist of this maNtra & shankara's interpretation of the same.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar