Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 praNAms Hare Krishna I still vividly remember, one of the members sometime back, here in this list openly announced that he realized ultimate on such and such date & such & such time!! Members laughed loudly at him for mentioning the date & time of his appointment with brahman....But here we are seeing jagadguru himself giving chronological order of divine events....I think nobody dared to laugh at this time table. Kindly pardon my ignorance, It may sound sarcasm, but it is a fact that, all these days, I didnot know about this *from* & *to* time & date bound realization process involved in *brahma jnAna*...that too in *shankara's advaita*. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Namaste Bhaskar Prabhuji: Your point is well taken and conceptually, chronoligical order of divine events are potentially feasible. But I don't think that it is possible for prescribe calendar time of progress like the educational achievents such as middle-school, high-school, B.Sc., M.Sc., Ph.D. etc. It may be possible for someone to predetermine the date of graduation of a degree in a college with adequate preparation. But I don't believe that 'spiritual progress' can be predetermined chronologically! Can you please explain what you exactly mean? I am raising this question to avoid some unnecessary hopes and misunderstanding of what you really meant. With my warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > praNAms > Hare Krishna > > I still vividly remember, one of the members sometime back, here in this > list openly announced that he realized ultimate on such and such date & > such & such time!! Members laughed loudly at him for mentioning the date > & time of his appointment with brahman....But here we are seeing jagadguru > himself giving chronological order of divine events....I think nobody dared > to laugh at this time table. > > Kindly pardon my ignorance, It may sound sarcasm, but it is a fact that, > all these days, I didnot know about this *from* & *to* time & date bound > realization process involved in *brahma jnAna*...that too in *shankara's > advaita*. > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Namaste > Kindly pardon my ignorance, It may sound sarcasm, but it is a fact that, > all these days, I didnot know about this *from* & *to* time & date bound > realization process involved in *brahma jnAna*...that too in *shankara's > advaita*. > (1) It is very much possible in Sankara's advaita and in fact Sankara categorically mentions this in In His commentary on the 7th mantra of the Mandukya Upanishad: Antahprajnaditvapratisedhavijnanapramanasamakalameva atmanyanarthaprapancanivrittilakÀsanam phalam parisamaptam samakalameva - Concurrently itself with valid knowledge brought about by the pratisedha - negation of attributes such as being conscious of what is within as during dream parisamaptam - is fulfilled phalam - the fruit characterized by the cessation of the phenomenal world of misery superimposed on the atman. Thus Knowledge dawns and straightaway Avidya is destroyed. It is important to note here that the EMPHATIC 'eva' after samakalam points out that Avidya is destroyed IMMEDIATELY and not gradually. Shankara bluntly reaffirms this a little further in the same commentary: Jnanasya dvaitanivrittiksanavyatirekana ksanantaranavasthanat Knowledge or the Vritti does not remain even for a (KSANA) instant beyond the (KSANA) instant at which there is the cessation of Duality (dvaitanivrirtti) Thus the categorical position of Bhagavatpadal is that knowledge arises, avidya is promptly sublated and the vritti too disappears (2) Upanishads speak about realized souls recollecting their transition from avidya. e.g. Vamadeva in the womb. So Vamadeva got His realization in the womb. Obviously there is a date and time for his . (3) In recent history, Sri Ramana Maharishi has clearly recounted his realization, the near death experience and the timeframe it happened. Obviously there is a date and time for this too. regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 : Namaste > all these days, I didnot know about this *from* & *to* time & date bound realization process involved in *brahma jnAna*...that too in *shankara's advaita*. samakalameva - Concurrently itself with valid knowledge brought about by the pratisedha - negation of attributes such as being conscious of what is within as during dream parisamaptam - is fulfilled phalam - the fruit characterized by the cessation of the phenomenal world of misery superimposed on the atman. Reply : when time is dismissed as mithya in advaita where is the question of marking a time for Brahman realisation? "Thus Knowledge dawns and straightaway Avidya is destroyed" This is acceptable, but involves no time. Is it possible to say that at such a such a time knowledge dawned and avidya disappears? May be the time can be noted after the event, (but from one kshaNa to another a lot can happen, it is not the same kshaNa) but not during or as the dawning or destruction taking place. I wish it is possible to ask my gurbhai to make a note of the time, as and when the understanding in my buddhi is taking place, as and when the teacher is unfolding the teaching! "It is important to note here that the EMPHATIC 'eva' after samakalam points out that Avidya is destroyed IMMEDIATELY and not gradually. Shankara bluntly reaffirms this a little further in the same commentary: Jnanasya dvaitanivrittiksanavyatirekana ksanantaranavasthanat Knowledge or the Vritti does not remain even for a (KSANA) instant beyond the (KSANA) instant at which there is the cessation of Duality (dvaitanivrirtti) Thus the categorical position of Bhagavatpadal is that knowledge arises, avidya is promptly sublated and the vritti too disappears" Reply: This kshana could be any kshana, day? night? dawn?eveningtwilight?noon? will some one be going by the clock? Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Is it possible to say excatly at what point of time sleep took over and rising up takes place? May be rising up but not sleep. What happens to the person in coma, who is lost to the world in terms of space and time? Is it possible to say, exactly at what time the dream event happened? The beginning , and the ending. I dont think I can. Srimad Bhagavatam third Skandam, ch 30th verse 24 describes the path of the soul soon after death. The soul travels 99,000 yojanas-7,92,000 miles within two to three hours of human time. I am not eligible to comment on the saints like Vama deva and Bhagavan Ramana. They are mahApuruShAs. Bhagavatam 3rd skandha ch om namo narayanaya Lakshmi Muthuswamy Stay in the know. Pulse on the new .com. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Namaste Lakshmi-ji, > > Reply: This kshana could be any kshana, day? night? dawn? > eveningtwilight?noon? will some one be going by the clock? It is that kshana (instant) when the event took place. eg. 11:19:07 AM > Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial > time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Won't we just answer 'the time is 11:19 AM'? Why should we assume that a Brahma Jnani's notion of time (at the vyavaharika level) would be anything different? Sankara provides a brilliant insight into the final process of realization. However many years, births, kalpas someone might have performed Sadhana, the final awakening IS instantaneous, momentous and an unforgettable event. Like snapping awake from a dream. Jnanasya dvaitanivrittiksanavyatirekana ksanantaranavasthanat Liberating Knowledge or the Vritti does not remain even for a (KSANA) instant beyond the (KSANA) instant at which there is the cessation of Duality (dvaitanivrirtti) Compare the words of Sankara above to a 20th century example of Self realization (Sri Ramana): >> >From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM THAT TIME ON. >> Please note that these are Sri Ramana's words and He says the absorption continued unbroken from THAT TIME ON. So a historian or a biographer can piece together the exact time and date of Sri Ramana's realization. So it could be 11:19AM on Aug 15th (as an example). To your question, >> Is it possible to say that at such a such a time knowledge dawned >> and avidya disappears? Sankara says the answer would be an absolute YES. In fact, not only a Jnani knows when that event occured but also can recollect 'his previous state of ignorance' as seen from Sri Vamadeva's description in Aitareya upanishad: // quote In regard to this, it is stated by a great seer: "While I was confined in my mother's womb I knew well all the many births I had taken. A hundred iron citadels confined me. But somehow by the causeless mercy of the Supreme Lord, I again came in contact with my spiritual master that I had previously had in another birth. And now with the swiftness of a hawk, I flew forth" - Thus Rsi Vamadeva declared even while lying in the womb of his mother. // end quote >> May be the time can be noted after the event, (but from one kshaNa to another a lot can happen, it is not the same kshaNa) but not during or as the dawning or destruction taking place. >> Agreed. >> I wish it is possible to ask my gurbhai to make a note of the time, as and when the understanding in my buddhi is taking place, as and when the teacher is unfolding the teaching! >> Please note that Sankara's commentary refers to the FINAL Realization, complete removal of Avidya and NOT to all the intermediate understandings that happen during the course of one's sadhana. Also important to note that the final realization is akin to snapping awake from a dream, a momentous event. NOT some understanding that happens when one gets clarity on a teaching or idea or a concept. ====================== Full quote of the 'Ramana' incident referred earlier ========================================================== Here is a quote from the book "The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in His Own Words" describing the well know 'near death' experience of Sri Ramana. // Quote It was about six weeks before I left Madurai for good that the great change in my life took place. It was quite sudden. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness, and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it, and I did not try to account for it or to find out whether there was any reason for the fear. I just felt `I am going to die' and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor, or my elders or friends; I felt that I had to solve the problem myself, there and then. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: `Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? The body dies.' And I at once dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out stiff as though rigor mortis had set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, so that neither the word `I' nor any other word could be uttered. `Well then,' I said to myself, `this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burnt and reduced to ashes. But with the death of this body am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of the "I" within me, apart from it. So I am Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly, almost without thought-process. `I' was something very real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with my body was centred on that `I'. From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM THAT TIME ON. // Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Namaste Lakshmi-ji, > > Reply: This kshana could be any kshana, day? night? dawn? > eveningtwilight?noon? will some one be going by the clock? It is that kshana (instant) when the event took place. eg. 11:19:07 AM > Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial > time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Won't we just answer 'the time is 11:19 AM'? Why should we assume that a Brahma Jnani's notion of time (at the vyavaharika level) would be anything different? Sankara provides a brilliant insight into the final process of realization. However many years, births, kalpas someone might have performed Sadhana, the final awakening IS instantaneous, momentous and an unforgettable event. Like snapping awake from a dream. Jnanasya dvaitanivrittiksanavyatirekana ksanantaranavasthanat Liberating Knowledge or the Vritti does not remain even for a (KSANA) instant beyond the (KSANA) instant at which there is the cessation of Duality (dvaitanivrirtti) Compare the words of Sankara above to a 20th century example of Self realization (Sri Ramana): >> >From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM THAT TIME ON. >> Please note that these are Sri Ramana's words and He says the absorption continued unbroken from THAT TIME ON. So a historian or a biographer can piece together the exact time and date of Sri Ramana's realization. So it could be 11:19AM on Aug 15th (as an example). To your question, >> Is it possible to say that at such a such a time knowledge dawned >> and avidya disappears? Sankara says the answer would be an absolute YES. In fact, not only a Jnani knows when that event occured but also can recollect 'his previous state of ignorance' as seen from Sri Vamadeva's description in Aitareya upanishad: // quote In regard to this, it is stated by a great seer: "While I was confined in my mother's womb I knew well all the many births I had taken. A hundred iron citadels confined me. But somehow by the causeless mercy of the Supreme Lord, I again came in contact with my spiritual master that I had previously had in another birth. And now with the swiftness of a hawk, I flew forth" - Thus Rsi Vamadeva declared even while lying in the womb of his mother. // end quote >> May be the time can be noted after the event, (but from one kshaNa to another a lot can happen, it is not the same kshaNa) but not during or as the dawning or destruction taking place. >> Agreed. >> I wish it is possible to ask my gurbhai to make a note of the time, as and when the understanding in my buddhi is taking place, as and when the teacher is unfolding the teaching! >> Please note that Sankara's commentary refers to the FINAL Realization, complete removal of Avidya and NOT to all the intermediate understandings that happen during the course of one's sadhana. Also important to note that the final realization is akin to snapping awake from a dream, a momentous event. NOT some understanding that happens when one gets clarity on a teaching or idea or a concept. ====================== Full quote of the 'Ramana' incident referred earlier ========================================================== Here is a quote from the book "The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in His Own Words" describing the well know 'near death' experience of Sri Ramana. // Quote It was about six weeks before I left Madurai for good that the great change in my life took place. It was quite sudden. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle's house. I seldom had any sickness, and on that day there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it, and I did not try to account for it or to find out whether there was any reason for the fear. I just felt `I am going to die' and began thinking what to do about it. It did not occur to me to consult a doctor, or my elders or friends; I felt that I had to solve the problem myself, there and then. The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: `Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? The body dies.' And I at once dramatised the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out stiff as though rigor mortis had set in, and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, so that neither the word `I' nor any other word could be uttered. `Well then,' I said to myself, `this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burnt and reduced to ashes. But with the death of this body am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of the "I" within me, apart from it. So I am Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.' All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly, almost without thought-process. `I' was something very real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with my body was centred on that `I'. From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM THAT TIME ON. // Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Namaste Sundearrajanji, "When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Won't we just answer 'the time is 11:19 AM'? Why should we assume that a Brahma Jnani's notion of time (at the vyavaharika level) would be anything different? " I agree that we do not ask such questions when some one asks us "what time is it?" at the vyAvaharika level. The same applies to a j~nAni too. But the perception of a j~nAni differs. The world, the individual and Isvara, the relationship and differences have to be understood thoroughly to gain brahma niShTa. That is the fundamental theme of the study of vedanta. Nothing in the creation can be excluded before assimilation of knowledge. When we are discussing 'Time' from various standpoints, as a study of advaita, we cannot dismiss all these, to understand TIME as mithya and dismiss time as mithya. Mithya is anything that is subject to the three periods of time, present, past and future. It is not that it did not exist in the past and is existent now. It is not that it existed in the past and is not existent now. Again it is not that it is not existent now but will be existent in the future. All the lokas, their residents and lords can be negated in all three periods of time. Brahman is independent of all of them. While they are not independent of Brahman. Anything that brahman is independent of is called a loka. Within the lokas are many jivas, including the devatas who are in charge, But, being subject to time, they are subject to death. Satya is that which is not subject to the three periods of time. In the past it was, in the present it is, in the future it will be. That can only be one thing - caitanya Atma. Being the very basis of time, satya Atma is nitya. what is eternal and what exisist is only one; that is brahman, which is atma. And the creation which is by nature an observable object, is mithya.. Anything seen is mithya is perishable. the seer, however can objectify even time and is therefore, the basis of time eternal. That is Atma, brahman, the only one not subject to time. Since anything observed and observable is mithya, noting down the time of brahman realisation is also mithya. A vedantin who has understood the concept of time, and can look at creation from the absolute reality standpoint(parmArtika) can dismiss time as mithya. A vedantin also looks at Time as Isvara. Time is something given. beings manifest in time and disappear in time including brahmaji, all the devas, celestials, gandharvas, kinnaras etc. Time is worshipped as MahAkalesvara. There is a temple in Ujjain. The form is the Linga, and the spirit is Time. kalayatAm aham kalaH.- among things that reckon I am time says krishna in Bh. Gita ch 10. verse 30. There are many people who keep accounts, Among all of them, I am the time that is ticking away constantly. There is nothing that escapes the reckoning of time. That Time I am. The puranas say that citragupta maintains the accounts of all jivas in the creation. There is someone who is maintaining my time account! There is a temple for citragupta in kancheepuram. A very small temple. Among the navagrahas, ketu represents citragupta. This is just an information.. om namo narayanaya Lakshmi Muthuswamy Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 PraNAms to everybody. Here is my understanding. Realization is not something in time; it is beyond the time concept. Firm abidance in the knowledge that one is beyond time is the realization of oneself as oneself that is eternal ever-existent presence. Hence realization can only occur NOW and HERE and no relation to chronological time- It is just shift in awareness of oneself as oneself not oneself as this or that. The one who claims that he has realized himslef on that particular day - who says that - a realized person or unrealized person. A realised person has transcended the chronological time and understood that I am is beyond the time, being eternal. An ego can only make a statement since it can only perceive a chrnological time. Hence most of the realized masters keep num about it. The one who waits for this knowledge to take place at some point in time in future cannot realize since in the very awaiting one has missed what IS. Any description of that from the point of chronological time is only trying to describe that which cannot be described. yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaasaH. Any description of it that which cannot be described is just pointers not the essence. Can there be a progression towards that - not in the real sense - but one has glimpse of that in the thinning of the ego or in the stillness of oneself - but firm abidance is the clear shift in understanding of what one is - I am that I am - 'spurati hRit swayam parama pUrNa sat' - I am - I am - I am - raise spontaneously in the very core of ones individuality- that I am is complete and full - says BhagavAn Ramana. Hence that complete abidance occurs when there is only a BEING - no more waiting to Be. Purification of the mind invovles a process in the chronological time- As it gets purified its attention shifts from witnessed being to witnessing being. In the complete understanding there is factual understanding of oneness of being a witness and being witnessed. Hari Om! Sadananda > Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial > time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Namaste Lakahmiji & Sadanandaji, Thanks for explaining the mithyatva of time so beautifully. Knowing the Self as Brahman is accomplishing the accomplished. Hence, giving it a beginning in time will only mislead seekers into thinking that Karma is equally useful as Jnana in gaining Self Knowledge. On 8/31/06, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada > wrote: > PraNAms to everybody. > > Here is my understanding. Realization is not something in time; it is beyond the time concept. Firm abidance in the knowledge that one is beyond time is the realization of oneself as oneself that is eternal ever-existent presence. Hence realization can only occur NOW and HERE and no relation to chronological time- It is just shift in awareness of oneself as oneself not oneself as this or that. The one who claims that he has realized himslef on that particular day - who says that - a realized person or unrealized person. A realised person has transcended the chronological time and understood that I am is beyond the time, being eternal. An ego can only make a statement since it can only perceive a chrnological time. Hence most of the realized masters keep num about it. > > The one who waits for this knowledge to take place at some point in time in future cannot realize since in the very awaiting one has missed what IS. > Any description of that from the point of chronological time is only trying to describe that which cannot be described. yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaasaH. Any description of it that which cannot be described is just pointers not the essence. Can there be a progression towards that - not in the real sense - but one has glimpse of that in the thinning of the ego or in the stillness of oneself - but firm abidance is the clear shift in understanding of what one is - I am that I am - 'spurati hRit swayam parama pUrNa sat' - I am - I am - I am - raise spontaneously in the very core of ones individuality- that I am is complete and full - says BhagavAn Ramana. Hence that complete abidance occurs when there is only a BEING - no more waiting to Be. > > Purification of the mind invovles a process in the chronological time- As it gets purified its attention shifts from witnessed being to witnessing being. In the complete understanding there is factual understanding of oneness of being a witness and being witnessed. > > > > Hari Om! > Sadananda > > > > Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial > > time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. > > When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these > questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - > celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hence realization can only occur NOW and HERE and no relation to chronological time- It is just shift in awareness of oneself as oneself not oneself as this or that. praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna This is really very beautifully put....I join Sri Kathirasan prabhuji & offer my heartfelt praNAms to you prabhuji....yes..it is the realization of oneness of self beyond the boundaries of dEsha & kAla..Shankara makes it clear by saying there is no time when jIva has not become one with brahman for one's intrinsic nature cannot be alienated...Atma svarUpa is not an external thing that we can strive & get it some point of time...it is our own svarUpa..jnAni realizes his true nature was/is/will be always THAT irrespective of tithi, nakshatra, ghaLige, vAra, mAsa, saMvatsara :-))Since the Atma tattva/our svarUpa is svayaM siddha & ever present in its entirety , saying its a time bound appointment with brahman is something quite contradictory to the very nature of Atma tattva itself...tvam dEhatrayAtItaH, tvam kAlatrayAtItaH, tvaM avasthAtrayAtItaH...etc. etc. are meaniningless assertions by shruti if we say we have the date with brahman !!! :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 performed Sadhana, the final awakening IS instantaneous, momentous and an unforgettable event. Like snapping awake from a dream. AND >From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM THAT TIME ON. praNAms Hare Krishna >From the above two observations it is quite evident that if this *awakening* is *unforgettable event* then this awakening cannot be compared with that of nirvikalpa samAdhi experience of *brahman*...because according to Acharyal, knowledge gained in NS is temporary has very limited warranty period & fade away gradually & to get this brahma jnAna battery re-charged, again we will have to plug-in in NS:-)) Whereas according to shankara, this instantaneous non-dual knowledge fetch him the intuitive realization that he was/is/will be always brahman & Not that his realization tell him that *since that flash in a pan* event onwards he has become brahman :-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 praNAms Hare Krishna Sundearrajan prabhuji: "When someone asks us what time is it. Do we ask that person these questions: Time from whose stand point? brahmaji's time?devAs - celestial time? pitR^is - manes? or humans? etc etc. Won't we just answer 'the time is 11:19 AM'? Why should we assume that a Brahma Jnani's notion of time (at the vyavaharika level) would be anything different? " Lakshmi mAtAji : I agree that we do not ask such questions when some one asks us "what time is it?" at the vyAvaharika level. The same applies to a j~nAni too. But the perception of a j~nAni differs. bhaskar : I agree with Lakshmi mAtAji's observation here...jnAni's perception differs....shankara calls jnAni as *dvibhAshi* he can speak vyavahArik language as well as language that throws the light on paramArthik satya...so, if a ajnAni asks jnAni (say, swamiji), "swamiji at what time you have come from that place to Ashram?? swamiji would have naturally & vyavahArikally answered him "I came back today around 7 am & again I am making my next visit, next month during 2nd week etc. etc.. Again if an ajnAni asks jnAni "swamiji, what is your next programme??, swamiji would have answered him, (ofcourse, from the transactional view point) " see, my next programme is a discourse about bhagavad gIta 6th chapter dhyAna yOga, at ......temple.....at 7.30 PM...etc...no problem with all these conversations & no *extra-ordinary answers required from jnAni/swamiji since these dialogues taking place in vyAvahAric plane. But problem comes when an ajnAni asks jnAni "swAmiji at what time did you establish yourself in brahman??" obviously this is not an ordinary vyAvahArik question, it is a query about paramArtha. Being jnAni, swamiji who is both familiar & fluent in both languages should guide the desciple/ajnAni by giving answer which throws light on paramArtha jnAna is it not?? he cannot give answers to ajnAni in avidhya/vyAvahAric sphere & keep him in that same delusion about paramArthik truth...jnAni should be in a position to understand the context & situation that demands an appropriate answer from the right perspective...If that is not the case shankara would have written all his commentaries from the vyAvahArik perspective & misguided his followers forever:-)) Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Namaste Sundar Rajanji, It is nice to discuss with you again after such a long time. I trust you and your family are keeping well. I would agree with your observation if I were to be lecturing a group of undergraduates studying Vedanta in a university. On the other hand, if I were to be discussing this with seekers of Knowledge I beg to differ. The jnani who takes himself to be ignorant at a particular time and a Jnani at a different time is also subject to ignorance. Coming to terms with the truth of myself is also realising that i was never ignorant in the first place. So the notion that I am/was ignorant is also within the domain of ignorance. Hence, when communicating to another seeker the jnani has to be careful with his choice of words or it may lead to greater darkness. Kathirasan On 8/31/06, Sundar Rajan <avsundarrajan > wrote: > Namaste Sri Kathirasan-ji, > > Agreed. Avidya is beginningless. But the termination of Avidya has a > specific time - the dawn of Jnana. or are we saying Avidya is > endless too? and that was the question raised by Lakshmi-ji. > > Maybe it is my engineering background or lack of scholarliness in > advaitic scriptures, but here is my simpleton way of looking at it. > > Do we know when the jnani (his body) is born? > yes > Do we know when the jnani (his body) died? > yes > > Did he have avidya when he was born? > yes - avidya is the very cause of his body. Except for Avatars etc > > Do we know when he came under the influence of avidya? > no. Avidya, by definition is beginningless. > > Did he have avidya when he died? > No. By definition, a Jnani is one whose Avidya has disappeared > completely > > So, a Jnani's avidya disappeared completely sometime between the > time he was born and the time he died. Also the disapperance of > avidya had to be in the waking state (won't go into the details here > but please read Sri Ramana etc). That being the case it is entirely > possible for rememberance of the date and time of the disappearance > of avidya. > > regards > Sundar Rajan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 bhaskar.yr wrote: > > > performed Sadhana, the final awakening IS instantaneous, momentous > and an unforgettable event. Like snapping awake from a dream. > > AND > > From that moment onwards the `I' or Self, focused attention on > Itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished > once and for all. ABSORPTION IN THE SELF CONTINUED UNBROKEN FROM > THAT TIME ON. > > > praNAms > Hare Krishna > > From the above two observations it is quite evident that if this > *awakening* is *unforgettable event* then this awakening cannot be > compared with that of nirvikalpa samAdhi experience of *brahman*...because > according to Acharyal, knowledge gained in NS is temporary has very limited > warranty period & fade away gradually & to get this brahma jnAna battery > re-charged, again we will have to plug-in in NS:-)) I agree with Bhaskal IMO the highest state is Sehaja Samadhi, the 'natural state' what is not the same as Nirvi Kalpa. My favorite Patanjali Yoga Sutra translation is from Shibendu Lahiri Maharaj <http://santmat-meditation.net/yoga/samadhi.html> 47. Nirvichara-vaisharadyeadhyatma-prasadah The excellence and perfection of "no-mind" (pure intelligence) results in the benediction of knowing the 'otherness'(adhyatma). 48. Ritambhara tatra prajna In "no-mind" is the wisdom of cosmic intelligence - the otherness - ritam. 49. Shruta-anumana-prajnabhyam amanya-visaya vishesa-arthatvat This ritam has very special significance, it is beyond intellectual matters or the knowledge that the mind acquires through testimony and inference. 50. Taj-jah samskaro-anya-samskara-pratibandhi Cosmic intelligence (ritam) generates pure consciousness and this keeps us free from conditioning and fragmentation. 51. Tasyapi nirhodhe sarva-nirodhan nirbijah samadhih Absolute and unconditional freedom without any seed of the mind is the ending of all endings. IMO # 51. is Sehaja Samadhi > Whereas according to > shankara, this instantaneous non-dual knowledge fetch him the intuitive > realization that he was/is/will be always brahman & Not that his > realization tell him that *since that flash in a pan* event --please elaborate > onwards he has > become brahman :-)) > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > namsté, Era Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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