date & time for the brahman realization!!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Kathirasan-ji,

> Knowing

> the Self as Brahman is accomplishing the accomplished. Hence,

giving

> it a beginning in time will only mislead seekers into thinking that

> Karma is equally useful as Jnana in gaining Self Knowledge.

>

 

Agreed. Avidya is beginningless. But the termination of Avidya has a

specific time - the dawn of Jnana. or are we saying Avidya is

endless too? and that was the question raised by Lakshmi-ji.

 

Maybe it is my engineering background or lack of scholarliness in

advaitic scriptures, but here is my simpleton way of looking at it.

 

Do we know when the jnani (his body) is born?

yes

Do we know when the jnani (his body) died?

yes

 

Did he have avidya when he was born?

yes - avidya is the very cause of his body. Except for Avatars etc

 

Do we know when he came under the influence of avidya?

no. Avidya, by definition is beginningless.

 

Did he have avidya when he died?

No. By definition, a Jnani is one whose Avidya has disappeared

completely

 

So, a Jnani's avidya disappeared completely sometime between the

time he was born and the time he died. Also the disapperance of

avidya had to be in the waking state (won't go into the details here

but please read Sri Ramana etc). That being the case it is entirely

possible for rememberance of the date and time of the disappearance

of avidya.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

 

 

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan

wrote:

Do we know when the jnani (his body) is born?

> yes

> Do we know when the jnani (his body) died?

> yes

>

> Did he have avidya when he was born?

> yes - avidya is the very cause of his body. Except for Avatars etc

>

> Do we know when he came under the influence of avidya?

> no. Avidya, by definition is beginningless.

>

> Did he have avidya when he died?

> No. By definition, a Jnani is one whose Avidya has disappeared

> completely

 

Dear Sri Sundar Rajan,

Who is a Jnani?

Bhagavan Ramana says : There is no Jnani, there is only

Jnana.

In verse 22 of UPADESHASARAM he says:

As I am pure Existence, I am not

The body nor the senses, mind nor life,

Nor even ignorance, for all these things

Are quite insentient and so unreal.

In the light of the above what facts can be derived?

 

I do not know how much you are familiar with Sri Sankara's

commentaries on the prasthanatraya. Please refer to his commentaries

and let all of us know how he has defined Jnani.That will benefit

us.

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

>>

> I do not know how much you are familiar with Sri Sankara's

> commentaries on the prasthanatraya.

>>

 

In my earlier message I did point out my "lack of scholarliness in

advaitic scriptures". So, the answer is NO - I am not familiar with

Sankara's commentaries on the prasthanatraya bar some cursory

reading of english translations.

 

>

>

> In verse 22 of UPADESHASARAM he says:

> As I am pure Existence, I am not

> The body nor the senses, mind nor life,

> Nor even ignorance, for all these things

> Are quite insentient and so unreal.

> In the light of the above what facts can be derived?

> Please refer to his commentaries

> and let all of us know how he has defined Jnani.That will benefit

> us.

 

 

Let us follow through logically on what you have written:

>> I am not the body nor mind

 

Without a body and mind, no books could have been written, so no

commentaries exist. So there is no way for anybody, let alone me, to

refer to them. So there is no way ever to define a Jnani from those

commentaries because the commentaries do not exist :-)

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sundar Rajan" <avsundarrajan

wrote:

 

> >

> > In verse 22 of UPADESHASARAM he says:

> > As I am pure Existence, I am not

> > The body nor the senses, mind nor life,

> > Nor even ignorance, for all these things

> > Are quite insentient and so unreal.

> > In the light of the above what facts can be derived?

> > Please refer to his commentaries

> > and let all of us know how he has defined Jnani.That will benefit

> > us.

>

 

Namaste,

 

In Gita Bhashya, Shankara has defined jnani as:

 

4:34 – j~naanavantaH api kechit yathaavat tattvadarshanashiilaaH,

apare na;

"some only, but not all, know as well as realize the truth...."

 

6:46 – j~naanibhyaH api j~naanam atra shaastraarthapaaNDityam...

here it is meant as:"even men of knowledge of the teachings of the

shastras".

 

7:16-17 – j~naanii viShNoH tattvavit

"he who knows the real nature of Vishnu"

 

7:18 – j~naanii tu aatmaiva na anyo mattaH

"the wise man is my verySelf..."

 

7:19 – j~naanavaan praapta-paripaaka-j~naanaH maaM vaasudevaM

pratyagaatmaanaM pratyakShataH prapadyate | kathaM ? vaasudevaH

sarvam iti |

"one of mature wisdom resorts to me , Vasudeva, the Innermost Self

(Pratyagatman) is the All..."

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "K Kathirasan" <brahmasatyam wrote:

 

Purification of the mind invovles a process in the chronological time-

As it gets purified its attention shifts from witnessed being to

witnessing being. In the complete understanding there is factual

understanding of oneness of being a witness and being witnessed.

> >

> >

> >

> > Hari Om!

> > Sadananda

 

Namaste Everyone,

 

This is a very interesting discussion, IMO.

 

One time I had the priveledge of meeting and

speaking with Pujya Swami Dayanandaji privately.

 

I had been influenced by the teachings of neo-advaita

prior to having the good fortune of meeting a true

teacher of traditional Advaita/Vedanta, (one

of Pujya Swamiji's disciples).

 

The teachings of neo-advaita, which I had been

exposed to, recommended in general that there

was nothing one could do to gain self-knowledge.

That self-knowledge was just some sort of

mysterious instantaneous random occurance,

which descended upon one without rhyme or reason.

(There was a lot more that was exceedingly

confusing as well, and which took a long time

to unravel, but I'll leave that out).

 

I tried to tell Pujya Swamiji about these

teachings, which for fourteen years had

greatly confused my mind, but rather than

explaining them well to him, all I said

was, "They say it [enlightenment] is instant."

 

"It *is* instant," he replied with

a lot of emphasis. "It *is* instant."

 

My pranams,

Durga

[Guest guest]

In Gita Bhashya, Shankara has defined jnani as:

 

4:34 ? j~naanavantaH api kechit yathaavat tattvadarshanashiilaaH,

apare na;

"some only, but not all, know as well as realize the truth...."

 

Humble praNams Sri Sunder Huttangadi prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

this statement can be compared with gIta verse itself like *manushyANAm

sahasrEshu kaschidhyadati siddhaye* is it not prabhuji??...this multiple

jIvAtma-s & their one by one gradual promotion to brahmahood etc. etc.

holds water only where we *accept* multiple jIvAtman-s *apart* from

brahman..paramArthic satya ultimately leads us to the conclusion "na

nirOdho nachayutpattihi..na bandho na cha sAdhakaha" how can we forget

gaudapAdAchArya's verdict being an advaita student.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Agreed. Avidya is beginningless. But the termination of Avidya has a

specific time - the dawn of Jnana. or are we saying Avidya is

endless too? and that was the question raised by Lakshmi-ji.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

*Avidya* according to advaita a hypothetical entity it cannot have any sort

of existence at any point of time...this would be the realization of a

jnAni...there was/is/will be never ever *a snake* in place of

rope...jnAni's realization cannot remove some solid entity called *avidya*,

realization only fetch us the knowledge that there was no time we are

deluded...shAstra can only reminds us our svarUpa, it does not bring any

drastic change in us...Hence shankara's statement *jnApakam hi shAstraM na

kArakaM*...

 

Hari Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sundararajanji,

"So, a Jnani's avidya disappeared completely sometime between the

time he was born and the time he died."

Agreed. Manifestation of nara janama is to exhaust ones punya and papa karma, prarabdha karma takes over. An opportunity given to gain Atmajn~Ana.

"Also the disapperance of avidya had to be in the waking state (won't go into the details here but please read Sri Ramana etc)."

Agreed. Removal of avidya is only when the mind is alert and awake. In dream state avidya cannot be removed.Definitely not in the sleep state which is ignorance - causal body. ganapathy atharvasheersham -avasthAthryatItah, guNatryAtItah, kAlatryAtItah, dehatrayAtItaH. So, the three states of experience is also mithya .

"That being the case it is entirely possible for rememberance of the date and time of the disappearance of avidya.>

This is not acceptable. The very first time in the human janma, when one hears the word brahman, or Atma, the teaching has already begun. How can one rememeber when this happened? As one grows, through the use of valid means of knowledge, one sheds ignoranace ajn~Ana.

Or may be the individual has worked in the previous janmas and in the present janma he has gained brahmajn~na very easily. Even for this Vedas are the pramANa. Past janma date and time can be rememebered? If so, even that is a siddhi gained by certain practices. That is also mithya.

Now I can recollect my childhood days. i dont remember my age exactly. My father used to lie flat on the ground and say I am dead to the world and stay motionless for sometime. There used to be sense of fear felt in me. But could not understand why. More fear to ask the parents what death is all about. But my mother used to say, 'ah I know what he is upto'. Then I have aslo heard from my father, this body is a kattai - meaning wood. So if even if I am burnt after death nothing is going to affect me because I am Atma. All this was strange. But the seeds had been sown for vedAnta pursuit.

When I remember this my memeory is aiding me.

This also sounds like when one gets up from sleep, and rememebrs the experience of having had a good sleep. Remembereing the realisation is not simiilar either. Anything remembered is mithya. Memory is also mithya.

Rememebering something is an aftermath of the experience from the memory. recalling too is the same. All these can be objectified. Anything that is objectified by the senses or by any means of pramaNa - pratayaksha, anumAmana, arthapatti,upamAna, anupalabdhi, all these are are not valid means of knowledge for gaining brahmajn~nAnam. Going to a guru of the sampraydaya parampara, and the study of the scriptures, and assimilation of this knowledge culminates in realisation and not other wise. Meaning uncovering the the knoiwledge by removing the layers of ignorance. Typical example the onion peel.

This is a conscious process, in the jagrat avastha, taking to the study of vedanta for a continuous, uninterrupted period of time, under the guidance of a competent teacher who helps in gaining this knowledge. Neither by perceptual knowledge, nor by logic, nor by intellectual reasoning this knowledge, nor by yoga, nor by samadhi can be gained. Its a process. Though all these help in gaining citta shuddhi and citta naischalyam alone, preparing and refining the mind to gain inner leisure to understand and assimilate the teaching that "brahman is a siddha vastu which already 'IS'. Nothing ever new is to be gained. Even when one is an ajn~Ani and ignorant of the fact, one is always brahman." For this, one has to earn Atma kR^ipa, shAstra kr^ipa, guru kR^ipa and isvara kr^ipa.

Attaining this may happen in this janma or may take many janmas. jn~nAnis disclose nothing. Only a jn~Ani can recognise another. If I say, that I have not seen or met any jn~Ani in my life, it amounts to saying that I am not one. So I have not been able to recognise.

I am talking about the same brahman - yesterday, today, right now, may be I will talk if I am alive tomorrow. I am still talking, still reading about, still attending classes, still writing. Thanks to vedanta, I dont expect some miracle to happen and moxa will be gained.

om namo narayanaya

Lakshmi Muthuswamy

 

 

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[Guest guest]

bhaskar.yr (AT) in (DOT) abb.com wrote:

Agreed. Avidya is beginningless. But the termination of Avidya has a

specific time - the dawn of Jnana. or are we saying Avidya is

endless too? and that was the question raised by Lakshmi-ji.

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

*Avidya* according to advaita a hypothetical entity it cannot have any sort

of existence at any point of time...this would be the realization of a

jnAni...there was/is/will be never ever *a snake* in place of

rope...jnAni's realization cannot remove some solid entity called *avidya*,

realization only fetch us the knowledge that there was no time we are

deluded...shAstra can only reminds us our svarUpa, it does not bring any

drastic change in us...Hence shankara's statement *jnApakam hi shAstraM na

kArakaM*...

 

Hari Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

 

 

 

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