Salary for the Temple Presidents!!

[Guest guest]

 

Are there any examples at present of TPs that don't earn a salary from ISKCON and do everything voluntarily, who maintain their kids and wife in a nice responsible manner????? And I mean honest, full time devotees?

 

I wish we could have a forum for TPs to say how they maintain themselves. So we can hear from the horses mouth!

Why are you assuming the TP has a wife and children to support? Such a person is not allowed to live in the temple, living together with his wife and kids and being supported by temple funds. To live comfortably with wife and children, he must live and work outside the temple. The temple is for renunciation.

[theist]

 

is that why in those days people in charge routinely took large amounts of money from temple collections for personal needs? you must be new... ask any oldtimer about how it really was back then. I remember some crying mothers who could not get bhoga milk for their babies from the temple kitchen while the TP was living large on temple money...

You joined Iskcon in 1979 at the time of the great zonak acarya fiasco. That hardly qualifies as and old timer. And anyway it is not wise to draw ewfwrrences to how Iskcon was when Iskcon has always been a work in progress. Srila Prabhupada's own soecific instructions on the topic have been provided. What more could possibly be needed for his institution?

[Guest guest]

May I please inquire what is the qualification or cut-off date to be considered an "old timer"?

 

Thank you & Hare Krishna.

[Guest guest]

 

Following Srila Prabhupada is just the opposite of re-inventing the wheel. Here is what Srila Prabhupada has to say on this matter:

 

There appears to be a serious misunderstanding nowadays in ISKCON and amongst many 2nd generation devotees as to how Srila Prabhupada wanted his temples to be run and managed, from simple concepts such as why we should use ghee, not oil, for cooking, to more serious matters such as the one under discussion. Some put forward their own ideas, based on corporate structures or other mundane Institutions and management ideology, as to what would be the best and most effective means to do this, in the name of "progressiveness" or "times have changed". But for us, Srila Prabhupada's followers, times do not change when it comes to the orders and instructions of the acharya. This has nothing to do with time, place and circumstance. We cannot reinvent the wheel.

 

In my personal estimation all these misunderstandings and concurrent speculations as to how things should be done are due to a lack of faith in Srila Prabhupada who gave us everything in his books, letters, conversations, morning walks, etc. It's all there, Prabhus, if you would just take the time to read and listen. Every spiritual or material question you would ever want to ask is covered. As Srila Prabhupada said, "Everything is in my books" and "My books will be the lawbooks for mankind for the next 10,000 years". The real question isn't how to manage the temples, but do you have implicit faith in guru and Krishna without the need to reinvent the wheel?

 

Srila Prabhupada gave us very simple, yet complete guidelines for running his temples, as evidenced by the letter quoted above by "M", and any senior devotee who lived in one of those temples during his physical presence knows what the mood and standard was like in that regard, even if the managers weren't always perfect. I find it very unfortunate that new devotees, particularly if they have never lived in a temple for a significant period of time, don't have a real sense of temple life. It is even more unfortunate that many have become managers and TPs of temples without this experience and training and some even manage the temples from the outside while working to maintain their families. I was told by one GBC member, while searching for a "full-time" TP for the temple I am affiliated with, that there are many temples in North America being successfully managed by such "part-time" TPs. I wonder what his definition of success is in lieu of the widely known depleted condition of most ISKCON temples in the U.S. No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

That times have changed is certain, but I believe the real question is why has ISKCON changed? And where have all the original disciples of Srila Prabhupada gone and why? Had the movement expanded exponentially since 1977, there would be many thousands of full-time devotees in ISKCON, and many more living outside, preaching and distributing books profusely, there would be multiple self sustaining farm communities, temples in all major cities, prasadam distribution programs of various sorts and probably many devotee run businesses as well. What happened? The complete history is beyond the scope of this writing, but most know the gruesome history of past failings that have led to the disintegration of ISKCON to it's current state. But the result is we are left with huge properties and temples and projects to manage without the trained, full-time devotees to do so, and in the process of trying to "fix" the situation we have had to resort to various concocted methodologies and ideas instead of going back to the original lawbooks from whence it all started in the first place. What is the use of reinventing the wheel?

 

Finally, we also have the explicit instruction of Srila Prabhupada in his Last Will and Testament that there is no need of any change:

 

2. Each temple will be an ISKCON property and will be managed by three

executive directors (no mention of committees or boards). The system of

management will continue as it is now and there is no need of any change.

 

What more do you want than that? The simple solution, as always, is to follow the orders of the spiritual master. Don't reinvent the wheel.

[Guest guest]

 

The truth is that Iskcon turned to Biscon a long time ago, thats what needs to be fixed and changed, temples are not designed to provide lifestyle choices. You practice austerity in them for good reason, to make spiritual advancement, and if you can't cut it then you go out and run a business.

Grhastras at a young age with children should be outside looking after their families, and sincere bramachayaras old or young with simple needs should be focused on administrating the temples inside. You just need good sober minded responsible individuals committed to serving the deities and maintaining the daily programs, preaching and sankirtan, and those family oriented individuals should be supporting the temple and it's programs from outside, in this way they benefit themselves and their family through giving a percentage of their earnings to the maintainance of the centre. For all the other trimmings and desires of family life you go outside and make the nessacary sacrifice of earning a living.

If the grhastras are sincere and serious about spiritual life they don't need to live in the temple to practice a regular program.

But if certain devotees need more association and more regulation then perhaps they can live in a farm community situation where they can have their own independant homes and at the same time support the overall whole system.

There are other lines apart from Iskcon that work quite satisfactory for all concerned but they have one guru at the helm who stears the ship, and that's the way it is, not a thousand opinions of the way it should be.

 

We could argue time and circumstance have changed, but the fundermental system remains, otherwise we may as well just be a product of history rather than sanatan dharma, when you water down the obvious wishes and instructions of guru for a mission that is the reason it does change, and not always for the better.

Of course there are innumerable examples in the past where everyones needs were not fullfilled but that is due mainly to mismanagement and imaturity.

You won't always have perfect leaders, temples are like hospitals with many diseased patients, qualified doctors may not always be available.

 

 

This is a mature, intelligent, perceptive, rational reply faithful to Srila Prabhupada's vision.

[Guest guest]

 

if something does not work, you need to fix it. the order of the guru is the mission, not blind following. Prabhupada changed things many times when something was not working. He was very pragmatic.

 

Those who are aware of "real" medical methodology go to the root cause of an ailment or disease and don't just treat the symptoms as modern medicine does. Similarly, we can't solve the problems in ISKCON with all these concocted approaches meant to solve all the external problems. No matter how many times you try to adjust things to improve ISKCON it simply will not work. It is just maya's trick to make us deviate from spiritual authority. Eventually, the result will look nothing at all like it was intended to be, as we are experiencing now in ISKCON. Better to bet back to the basics.

[Guest guest]

 

But I do not condier it bad even if somebody takes salary for being temple president.

 

"They should not be given ANY salary. That is VERY BAD. This is AGAINST PRINCIPLE". - HDG Srila Prabhupada.

 

For Srila Prabhupada's statements on how brahmanas and devotees in ISKCON should not be earning a living from money given to the Deities, please see "Back to Prabhupada" issue 10.

[Guest guest]

Here, once again, is the referred to conversation (in a more readable form):

 

Conversation: Vairagya, Salaries, and Political Etiquette

--

April 28, 1977, Bombay

 

Prabhupada: Niskincanasya. One who has decided that "This world is useless. I have to take birth repeatedly and accept different types of bodies and suffer." Body means... Those who have understood this fact and disgusted, so bhakti line is for them. One who has the tendency to enjoy this material world, and they are taking advantage of God, "Give me good wife, give me good work, good meal, good enjoyment," they are not in the bhakti line. They are in the very nascent stage.

 

Tamala Krsna: Nescient stage?

 

Prabhupada: Lower stage. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yogam. That... There is one verse written by Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. What page I don't... Siksartham. The bhakti-yoga, nija-bhakti-yoga... Bhakti-yoga means devotion to Krsna. And that is vairagya-vidya, how to learn, renounce this world. Otherwise why Caitanya Mahaprabhu gave up His grhastha life? He's the same person. Why Rupa Gosvami gave up their ministership? By their personal behavior they are showing this is not required. This is vairagya-vidya. So under the circumstances, those who have no vairagya, they cannot live in the temple. They are taking advantage of the temple facilities for their sense enjoyment. Do you understand?

 

Tamala Krsna: Yes, I do.

 

Prabhupada: So that should be stopped. So to live with wife, together as a grhastha, and enjoy grhastha life, at the same time to live in temple, this should be discouraged. Temple is meant for brahmacari and sannyasi, our, mainly, not for grhastha, because they have got inclination to enjoy. To live with wife means enjoyment. They'll have sex. This should be discouraged. But one who is absolutely required, they also cannot be allowed to live together. It is badly done(?). Suppose if one is grhastha, he is in devotional service, but he has no money to look after his wife. In that case the wife can live in the temple but separately with women, not together. Together living is very disturbing. It is not at all recommended. Give this point. At least, this should not be encouraged.

 

Tamala Krsna: Generally in our temples, within the temple building no grhasthas live together, but in the temple compound, that is to say, around the temple, there may be other buildings. There they live together. But it's...

 

Prabhupada: No, I am speaking, within the temple.

 

Tamala Krsna: I think practically all over the society that has been stopped, the grhastha living together with wife. I don't think there's any case like that. But in the adjoining buildings they might be...

 

Prabhupada: Adjoining buildings... But the temple should not provide them with salary to enjoy their life. That is same thing.

 

Tamala Krsna: Generally the temples are providing them with apartments, like that.

 

Prabhupada: But that is temple.

 

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

 

Prabhupada: Just like we have got so many tenants. They are living in their own. But they have no connection with the temple, neither the temple is paying them or... No, they are earning their own way.

 

Tamala Krsna: In other words, if the temple provides an apartment, it's the same as paying a salary.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Tamala Krsna: In other words, giving an apartment is the same thing as providing a salary.

 

Prabhupada: All right, apartment can be... But what is this? They are given high salary. Because his service is essential--"All right, you take apartment."

 

Tamala Krsna: But not...

 

Prabhupada: You take prasadam. But why salary? Where is the question of salary? Where is vairagya, renouncement? So in all circumstances the salary process should be stopped. One who wants salary, he can work outside.

 

Tamala Krsna: Actually, even if you don't give a salary, if you give an apartment and you give food and you give all these other things for someone to maintain his household life...

 

Prabhupada: Because his service is essential.

 

Tamala Krsna: But that has to be determined very strictly.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Whether his service is absolutely required? So you give him.

 

Tamala Krsna: That is the factor. That point must be clearly acknowledged.

Prabhupada: Hm hm. So he's trying to practice... Because sevonmukhe, if he gives service, then gradually he'll renounce. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. God realization means service. The more you give service to the Lord, the more you become advanced in devotional... So one who is giving service, dedicated life, so maybe... But no salary. They may live in the temple, woman separate, man separate.

 

Tamala Krsna: They're... But the actual thing is that they're being, living together in an apartment, and the temple is paying for that apartment. They're not living separately in the temple. They're being...

 

Prabhupada: That is to be discouraged. What do you think?

 

Giriraja: I agree.

 

Prabhupada: In Los Angeles it is very freely going on. In the name of Vaisnavism they are drawing salary, living comfortably, having sense enjoyment. This is not good, not at all. So you all high officers, you think over it and do the needful.

 

Tamala Krsna: Vairagya should be cultivated.

 

Prabhupada: Vairagya... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says clearly that niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukhasya. The bhagavad-bhajana, to become devotee of the Lord, means he's disgusted with this material world. For him, bhagavad-bhajana. Just like if I become disgusted with something, I require some change, similarly, bhagavad-bhajana is for him who is absolutely disgusted with this material world. And anyone who has got little interest in material enjoyment, he's not fit for bhagavad-bhajana. He'll have to accept again this material body, either he becomes Brahma or becomes an ant in the stool, according to his karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur deha-upapattaye. He'll have to develop certain type of body according to his desire of enjoyment. This is nature's law. Then where is the question of going back to home, back to Godhead? Why so many varieties of life? There is Brahma, and there is ant in the stool. So vairagya-vidya-nija... Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogah prayojitah, janayaty asu vairagyam. And vairagyam means jnanam ca. When one is in full knowledge that "To remain in this material world is useless for me"--jnanam--"I am simply wasting my time by repetition of birth and death," then he can have vairagya. "Stop this!" If this sense is not awakened, there is no bhakti. It is not so easy. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati. That is vairagya. So vairagya-vidya... Otherwise why big, big persons, they renounced everything? Bharata Maharaja, young man, the emperor of the whole world, gave up everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally teaches, young man, good, beautiful wife, young wife, so affectionate mother, so much honor in the society, Nimai Pandita, so beautiful body... Tyaktva sudustyaja-surepsita-rajya-laksmim. Surepsita. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's position was, even the demigods, they desired such family life. But He still gave up. That is teaching. Therefore Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya says, vairagya-vidya-nija-bhak..., siksartham: "to teach others." He understood that in order to teach others vairagya-vidya... He is the Supreme Person. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yoga-siksartham ekah purana-purusah: "That He was, Supreme Lord. Now He has appeared as Sri Krsna Caitanya."Sarira-dhari: "He has accepted one body as Sri Krsna Caitanya." So these things should be stopped, that they should live comfortably with husband and wife, children, and take salary from the... You decide. This is not to our... Besides that, in our BBT it is clearly written that "Fifty percent for printing book, and fifty percent for..." So you cannot violate this. Those who can give voluntary service, "Welcome." Otherwise we don't require. At least they should not be given any salary. That is very bad. This is against principle.

 

Tamala Krsna: I was reading the life sketch of Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He always maintained a government service job, and still...

 

Prabhupada: He gave so much service to Krsna. From his family maintenance... He could have renounced, but he said that the family has to be maintained. So he... Markata-vairagya. Bhaktivinoda Thakura was against giving sannyasa. He didn't like these babajis. They were markata-vairagya, superficially... Markata-vairagya means monkey. They live naked, eat fruits, live in the jungle. That is vairagya. But three dozen wives. Markata-vairagya. Markata means monkey. Superficially vairagya, naga-baba. They eat vegetables, fruits, live in the jungle, no house, or, all, everything like vairagya. But sex. We have... I have seen in Vrndavana. They have got a party, each monkey, women's party, and the male will come to any female, "Now ready,Enter." You can see it. Markata-vairagya nahi paraloka dasaya(?).So this should not be encouraged. Then gradually it will deteriorate into...

 

Tamala Krsna: The Christians had that happen to them.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Tamala Krsna: The Christian religion had that deterioration. Everything deteriorated more and more into sense gratification.

 

Prabhupada: Because they have no valid philosophy. It is simply official. They have nothing, no knowledge, no nothing, simply that dress and cloth. That's all.

 

Tamala Krsna: Just like the original... When Jesus was there and he had twelve disciples, they simply gave up everything and traveled with him and tried to preach. So they were renunciates, living simply whatever they could take, nothing more, and devoting their lives to God. But the followers later on, more and more they added the degree of sense gratification, till now you can't see any renunciation at all within their order.

 

Prabhupada: No, they are drinking. They are having homosex. They are encouraging homosex, giving man-to-man marriage. You know that? This is going on. Doing everything nonsense.

 

Giriraja: Actually their leader...

 

Prabhupada: And they are concluding that they cannot stop committing sins and Jesus Christ will take account for them. Therefore it is very good religion, that "We can do whatever nonsense we like, and if we keep our faith in Jesus Christ, then we are saved." Papa-buddhih, namno balad papa-buddhih. Great offenders. So what news?

 

Giriraja: Well, the reason I came up is I'm going to try to phone Mr. Rajda now.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Giriraja: Going to try to phone Mr. Rajda. And considering that the Prime Minister may not have that much time... We had discussed that he should come here to meet you, but suppose if we fix up, say, a minimum time if he can't come here, say at least a half hour undisturbed, something like that, is it possible to fix in the city or we should just insist that...

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Tamala Krsna: He's suggesting that if the Prime Minister can't give that much time, whether you would go to see him? Actually, if you give the idea that

Prabhupada wants to see him in the morning hours...

 

Giriraja: Yeah, I'm going to.

 

Tamala Krsna: I mean, if he says that that's not possible...

 

Prabhupada: That is not respectful.

 

Giriraja: No.

 

Tamala Krsna: Not at all respectful.

 

Prabhupada: Then he does not know how to honor a saintly person. It is useless to meet him. If he has no respect for saintly person, if he thinks greater than saintly person, then he's useless.

 

Tamala Krsna: Then nothing will come of it, anyway. And if we give this opportunity, that he come in the morning, if he...

 

Prabhupada: No, no, apart from that, if he has got that sense, that "I am very big man, so everyone should come here," he's useless. We cannot do anything with him.

 

Giriraja: That's what I thought.

 

Prabhupada: Very beginning is...

 

Giriraja: On the wrong foot.

 

Tamala Krsna: No, he has to come to see you, Srila

 

Prabhupada. Oh, there's so many examples in the sastra of great personalities.

 

Prabhupada: Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu refused to see, what to speak of going there.

 

Giriraja: I agree with you.

 

Prabhupada: Even big, big kings, Akbar, Mansingh, they used to, used to come to Rupa Gosvami.

 

Giriraja: No, I agree with you completely.

 

Prabhupada: Did... He demanded like that?

 

Giriraja: No. When I spoke to Mr. Rajda I said that the Prime Minister should come here, and Mr. Rajda agreed. But just now, when I... I just spoke to Gopala. I was on my way to make the call. So he said that I should just ask you about this.

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Giriraja: I was just going to phone, and I mentioned to Gopala Krsna Prabhu that I was going to make this call. So I said that, you know, the Prime Minister was going to be coming here, so he... And I said that I also, in the call I wanted to make that very clear so there was no mistake. And he said that, well, he might be too busy to come here and that he...

 

Prabhupada: Gopala said.

 

Giriraja: Yeah. So I thought it would be better just to...

 

Prabhupada: No, there is no question of.

 

Giriraja: Yeah. No, I agree completely. I mean, you're millions and billions of times greater than anyone, so there's no question...

 

Prabhupada: No, apart from that, if one has no proper respect for a saintly person, he's useless man. You cannot have any benefit. Or neither he can derive any benefit.

 

Giriraja: Yeah.

 

Tamala Krsna: From all sides.

 

Giriraja: Because he'll think he has nothing to learn, that he is already in the best position.

 

Prabhupada: And we don't require any from, anything from them, but for the whole human society's welfare we can suggest him, "Do like this." That is our... But we don't require anything from them.

 

Giriraja: I know that. This is your...

 

Prabhupada: Of course, sometimes we are in difficulty. We ask them something.

 

Tamala Krsna: But that's their duty, anyway. Ksatriyas should provide protection for the saintly person.

 

Giriraja: Anyway, our real protector is Krsna.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Giriraja: He has... Because we've seen so many difficulties. Nobody could see any solution, but...

 

Prabhupada: That one Caitanya Mahaprabhu's devotee was ordered to be hanged.

 

Giriraja: I didn't know that.

 

Prabhupada: Gopinatha Pattanayaka.

 

Tamala Krsna: Yeah.

 

Prabhupada: All the devotees approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu, thinking that "He must... The king will excuse him." He never agreed. "Oh, I cannot do that. If he has done something wrong, then let him..." Of course, he was saved and protected by Caitanya Mahaprabhu's good wish, but He never agreed. These are some of the examples that... Simply depend on Krsna. But if they are actually respectful, we can ask them. There is... But if it is difficult job... Visayinam sandarsanam atha yosit... We cannot keep so strictly, but these are the principles taught by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Giriraja: So that principle about living together and salary...

 

Prabhupada: That is...

 

Giriraja: That is meant to apply everywhere in the society.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. This is exploitation of the society.

 

Giriraja: I know. Since I've been preaching more, I've been able to see how much labor and endeavor is going in just to maintain so many idle people. I know you've been saying this for a long time, and now, you know, I feel the strength to actually change that, that only those who are really sincere workers can stay.

 

Prabhupada: Otherwise no need. We need their service, but not by being salaried. That is not good. (end)

[Guest guest]

Sridhar Maharaja told this story:

 

"Once during the time of Lord Rama everything was going well. All were content. Anyone who had any complaint could bring it before Lord Rama personally.

 

"One day all were astonished to see a dog come before Lord Rama with a complaint: he had been peacefully taking a nap on the sidewalk and a brahmana kicked him. 'I want you to punish him' said the dog.

 

"Lord Rama thought it over and he agreed that a brahmana was supposed to be patient and kind, see the Lord in everyone's heart, and not show disrespect to any living being. Rama then asked the dog what he thought the punishment should be.

 

" 'Give him the position of Temple President of the biggest Matha in the land,' said the dog. Everyone gasped: 'What?! What kind of a punishment is that?!"

 

"The dog said, 'In that position he will be able to make Vaisnava aparadha many times a day. Over the course of his career he will make aparadha to thousands of devotees. Then he will serve so much time in hell for those Vaisnava aparadha.

 

"Then afterwards he will be very lucky if he is reborn as a homeless street dog to attone for his sins. I should know, because I held that position of Temple President in my former birth."

[Guest guest]

 

Sridhar Maharaja told this story:

 

"Once during the time of Lord Rama everything was going well. All were content. Anyone who had any complaint could bring it before Lord Rama personally.

 

"One day all were astonished to see a dog come before Lord Rama with a complaint: he had been peacefully taking a nap on the sidewalk and a brahmana kicked him. 'I want you to punish him' said the dog.

 

"Lord Rama thought it over and he agreed that a brahmana was supposed to be patient and kind, see the Lord in everyone's heart, and not show disrespect to any living being. Rama then asked the dog what he thought the punishment should be.

 

" 'Give him the position of Temple President of the biggest Matha in the land,' said the dog. Everyone gasped: 'What?! What kind of a punishment is that?!"

 

"The dog said, 'In that position he will be able to make Vaisnava aparadha many times a day. Over the course of his career he will make aparadha to thousands of devotees. Then he will serve so much time in hell for those Vaisnava aparadha.

 

"Then afterwards he will be very lucky if he is reborn as a homeless street dog to attone for his sins. I should know, because I held that position of Temple President in my former birth."

 

 

it is only proper if you present a valid reference to when and where Sridhar Maharaja made this supposed statement.

 

please don't toss out such arbitrary "Sridhar Maharaja said" quotes without validating the quote with proper verifiable reference of it's date and place.

 

otherwise, I personally don't think you should post such quotes randomly without proper referencing.

 

As well, paraphrasing is nor proper quoting.

[Kulapavana]

 

Those who are aware of "real" medical methodology go to the root cause of an ailment or disease and don't just treat the symptoms as modern medicine does. Similarly, we can't solve the problems in ISKCON with all these concocted approaches meant to solve all the external problems. No matter how many times you try to adjust things to improve ISKCON it simply will not work. It is just maya's trick to make us deviate from spiritual authority. Eventually, the result will look nothing at all like it was intended to be, as we are experiencing now in ISKCON. Better to bet back to the basics.

 

You judge by the result. That was Prabhupada's standard too. So many quotes... many people are confused about the simplest things.

 

Do you have qualified renunciates for such positions? If you do, than by all means: USE THEM. If you dont: you do what has to be done.

 

I have seen temples horribly mismanaged and valuable properties lost because the "renunciate" in charge was too lazy and too stupid for his position. And I have seen temples managed nicely by a householder couples. The rule is: You judge by the result.

 

In the name of "purity" I have seen more stupidity than I care to remember. Spare me the lectures and SHOW ME how your favourite system works in real life. Look around you. In North America, if it was not for the Indian community Iskcon would have been GONE WITH THE WIND by now. You speak of going "back to basics". That is an empty slogan, not a program to maintain and expand the movement.

 

Prabhupada wanted to implement varnashram to save his movement from vaishyas short term greed and sudras stupidity. Kshatriyas managage and brahmanas preach. That is the vedic system. What varna are you? Find out and serve accordingly. That will help both you and our movement.

[Guest guest]

Noisy joints, bad eyes, teeth that when they ache, they are put in one's pocket, hair (if applicable) gray to white, liver freckles, profuse limp, bad back.

 

question, what do old timer men prefer, boxers or briefs?

answer, depens.

 

My real definition of old timer is one who never heard the word rtvik, did not debate siksa-diksa incessantly, never considered brahmacarinis "mayadevi", lived in temples that could never make the rent, and knew sanyassis that had no posh residences up in the hills.

 

haribol, mahaksadasa (of aching back fame, awaiting the canadian invasion).

[Guest guest]

"Noisy joints, bad eyes, teeth that when they ache, they are put in one's pocket, hair (if applicable) gray to white, liver freckles, profuse limp, bad back."

 

Hare Krishna! I'm FINALLY qualified for something!

 

Thank you very much!

[Guest guest]

 

You judge by the result. That was Prabhupada's standard too. So many quotes... many people are confused about the simplest things.

 

Do you have qualified renunciates for such positions? If you do, than by all means: USE THEM. If you dont: you do what has to be done.

 

I have seen temples horribly mismanaged and valuable properties lost because the "renunciate" in charge was too lazy and too stupid for his position. And I have seen temples managed nicely by a householder couples. The rule is: You judge by the result.

 

In the name of "purity" I have seen more stupidity than I care to remember. Spare me the lectures and SHOW ME how your favourite system works in real life. Look around you. In North America, if it was not for the Indian community Iskcon would have been GONE WITH THE WIND by now. You speak of going "back to basics". That is an empty slogan, not a program to maintain and expand the movement.

 

Prabhupada wanted to implement varnashram to save his movement from vaishyas short term greed and sudras stupidity. Kshatriyas managage and brahmanas preach. That is the vedic system. What varna are you? Find out and serve accordingly. That will help both you and our movement.

 

With all due respect, you are the one that seems to be confused. The temple is not a community managed by a kshatriya. The temple is an ashram for renounced sevakas of the Lord. If you won't accept Srila Prabhupada's words on this matter, that's one thing, but please don't twist things.

[Guest guest]

 

May I please inquire what is the qualification or cut-off date to be considered an "old timer"?

 

Thank you & Hare Krishna.

 

 

When the liver is more deader than liver and you're peeing in morse code, and your heart can't keep up with your pacemaker, and you feel a little like a beached whale when you rise in the morning, and you forget what order the Maha mantra is chanted in, when you've forgotten what it's like to laugh, then you're approaching the 'old timer' cut off date.

Beware don't go there.

Don't stop doing the Swami two step.

And be an 'eternal timer'

[Guest guest]

 

When the liver is more deader than liver and you're peeing in morse code, and your heart can't keep up with your pacemaker, and you feel a little like a beached whale when you rise in the morning, and you forget what order the Maha mantra is chanted in, when you've forgotten what it's like to laugh, then you're approaching the 'old timer' cut off date.

Beware don't go there.

Don't stop doing the Swami two step.

And be an 'eternal timer'

 

 

Gimme that 'ole timer religion'

 

We will all sing to Nitai Gaur

And chant Hare Krsna Hare Rama

transport you to the other shore

And that's good enough for me.

 

We will read from the Gita

Honor Sri Radha an Sita

Nothing could be sweeter

So it's good enough for me.

 

It was good for our Lord Brahma

And it will wash away our karma

So just sing to Radhe Shyama

Sounds good enough to me

[Guest guest]

There are two articles on the salary issue in the Sampradaya Sun. One is entitled "Open Letter to the Management of ISKCON UK" and the other is "Collect Money and Give It to the Leaders?" You can scroll down to find them.

[Guest guest]

 

You joined Iskcon in 1979 at the time of the great zonak acarya fiasco. That hardly qualifies as and old timer. And anyway it is not wise to draw ewfwrrences to how Iskcon was when Iskcon has always been a work in progress.

 

I'm wondering who you would consider an old-timer in ISKCON, because as you say, ISKCON has always been a work in progress. So joining in, say, 1970 was quite different than joining in 1972, which was quite different than joining in 1974, etc. So who in your opinion "qualifies as and old timer"?

 

Thank you and Hare Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

1) A temple and a monastery and two completely different things. You can learn this from studying the various and sundry Hindu non-profit organizations that have been SUCCESSFUL all around the world whose attendance is INCREASING, not dwindling; who are building MORE temples they can easily afford; who do not have LAWSUITS from hundreds of their children.

 

If you study the above-mentioned case histories, you will see that first and foremost a MONASTERY is for RENOUNCED people and a TEMPLE is a place where all in the community can come to develop their BHAKTI. In addition, successful MONASTERIES are not co-ed. By definition co-ed residences are called COMMUNES. A commune is NOT a monastery, according to some Hindu non-profit organizations flourishing and going strong into the 21st century.

 

2) In regards to the long quotes from Prabhupada and the conversation with Tamal Krsna, they are misleading. A non-oldtimer [see Mahak's definition] or a

person who has NOT studied history may not be aware that AFTER those famous quotes and conversations, something quite SICK happened.

 

There was then, how Prabhupada called it, "a great fratricidal war" against the sane, sober-minded, peaceful, bhakti-embued householders and brahmacarinis started by the gung-ho sannyasis and brahmacaris, fueled by these quotes from Prabhupada quoted above. Prabhupada then had to order the sannyasis and brahmacaris to STOP harassing and kicking out the householders and brahmacharinis.

 

3) CONCLUSION

In my opinion this phenomenon happened because of guru's relative truth versus eternal truth. Prabhupada came from India and he was not conversant with IRS law and best practices of non-profit organizations in each and every country where he established a Temple. To know transcendental truth and material truth are two different things. There is another thread which establishes this point of view.

 

In some countries non-profit organizations are called NGOs, in other countries they are called 501 © (3) organizations. No one in ISKCON in its infancy period was an expert in non-profit law. Now you can research and take a course and be educated in what is considered to be the highest standard in

running a non-profit organization. In the United States for example, you can be trained at The Grantsmanship Center or you can take a seminar during Philanthropy Day from NSFRE National Society of Fund-Raising Executives.

 

In such a course you will find out that the best practices standard for a non-profit is you have a Board of Directors which are all volunteer positions, which monitor the paid positions of Executive Director and staff. Pay includes

non-cash contributions aka perks, namely HOUSING AND MEALS or a room at the Temple and prasadam. So according to non-profit law you are not supposed to give these perks to the Board of Directors or the Advisory Board.

 

However the Executive Director and staff may be paid in cash, or in non-cash [perks] or nay combination thereof. Prabhupada did not know this: he came from India where he had lived in a Matha and had set up a Matha. So he knew what the standard was for setting up and establishing NGO Mathas.

NGO = Non Government Orgnaization; Matha is a place where pilgrims can come and hear katha, receive a meal, and have a place to stay.

 

For example his mandate that there be three Directors alludes back to when he established a Matha with two other individuials back in the 1930s when the elected acharya Ananta Vasudeva left the orgnization set up by Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati. So Prabhupada was familiar with this system

in one country in the world, he was not expert in international law such as a non-profit attorney would be, due to the difference between relative truth and eternal truth of Sri Guru.

 

Please forgive me if you feel I have the wrong attitude or have said anything wrong. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. Haribol.

[Guest guest]

 

2) In regards to the long quotes from Prabhupada and the conversation with Tamal Krsna, they are misleading. A non-oldtimer [see Mahak's definition] or a

person who has NOT studied history may not be aware that AFTER those famous quotes and conversations, something quite SICK happened.

 

There was then, how Prabhupada called it, "a great fratricidal war" against the sane, sober-minded, peaceful, bhakti-embued householders and brahmacarinis started by the gung-ho sannyasis and brahmacaris, fueled by these quotes from Prabhupada quoted above. Prabhupada then had to order the sannyasis and brahmacaris to STOP harassing and kicking out the householders and brahmacharinis.

 

I remember that. It took place in 1976. There was a big push, led by TKG, to remove all householders from TP positions, and have brahmacaris be the TPs. After all, these were the true "renunciates", were they not? But Srila Prabhupada nipped that idea in the bud. TKG was ordered to go to China around that time. Not sure if it was directly related to this, although some say that it was. Anyway, point being, these letters and converations were based on time and place. Yes, having a no-salary volunteer as TP is the ideal. The question is, is it practical for this present step in time? In all cases? Another point to consider is that a renounced volunteer is not bound by anything except his alleged loyalty, which may weaken if he doesn't get along with the GBC person he answers to. He can sneak out the back door after a few months and never look back. Someone receiving a salary/allowance/maintenance, whatever you wish to call it, will tend to be more committed for the long haul and have more incentive to weather all the trials and tribulations which the position of Temple President usually demands.

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krsna,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

1) A temple and a monastery and two completely different things. You can learn this from studying the various and sundry Hindu non-profit organizations that have been SUCCESSFUL all around the world whose attendance is INCREASING, not dwindling; who are building MORE temples they can easily afford; who do not have LAWSUITS from hundreds of their children.

 

If you study the above-mentioned case histories, you will see that first and foremost a MONASTERY is for RENOUNCED people and a TEMPLE is a place where all in the community can come to develop their BHAKTI. In addition, successful MONASTERIES are not co-ed. By definition co-ed residences are called COMMUNES. A commune is NOT a monastery, according to some Hindu non-profit organizations flourishing and going strong into the 21st century.

 

2) In regards to the long quotes from Prabhupada and the conversation with Tamal Krsna, they are misleading. A non-oldtimer [see Mahak's definition] or a

person who has NOT studied history may not be aware that AFTER those famous quotes and conversations, something quite SICK happened.

 

There was then, how Prabhupada called it, "a great fratricidal war" against the sane, sober-minded, peaceful, bhakti-embued householders and brahmacarinis started by the gung-ho sannyasis and brahmacaris, fueled by these quotes from Prabhupada quoted above. Prabhupada then had to order the sannyasis and brahmacaris to STOP harassing and kicking out the householders and brahmacharinis.

 

3) CONCLUSION

In my opinion this phenomenon happened because of guru's relative truth versus eternal truth. Prabhupada came from India and he was not conversant with IRS law and best practices of non-profit organizations in each and every country where he established a Temple. To know transcendental truth and material truth are two different things. There is another thread which establishes this point of view.

 

In some countries non-profit organizations are called NGOs, in other countries they are called 501 © (3) organizations. No one in ISKCON in its infancy period was an expert in non-profit law. Now you can research and take a course and be educated in what is considered to be the highest standard in

running a non-profit organization. In the United States for example, you can be trained at The Grantsmanship Center or you can take a seminar during Philanthropy Day from NSFRE National Society of Fund-Raising Executives.

 

In such a course you will find out that the best practices standard for a non-profit is you have a Board of Directors which are all volunteer positions, which monitor the paid positions of Executive Director and staff. Pay includes

non-cash contributions aka perks, namely HOUSING AND MEALS or a room at the Temple and prasadam. So according to non-profit law you are not supposed to give these perks to the Board of Directors or the Advisory Board.

 

However the Executive Director and staff may be paid in cash, or in non-cash [perks] or nay combination thereof. Prabhupada did not know this: he came from India where he had lived in a Matha and had set up a Matha. So he knew what the standard was for setting up and establishing NGO Mathas.

NGO = Non Government Orgnaization; Matha is a place where pilgrims can come and hear katha, receive a meal, and have a place to stay.

 

For example his mandate that there be three Directors alludes back to when he established a Matha with two other individuials back in the 1930s when the elected acharya Ananta Vasudeva left the orgnization set up by Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati. So Prabhupada was familiar with this system

in one country in the world, he was not expert in international law such as a non-profit attorney would be, due to the difference between relative truth and eternal truth of Sri Guru.

 

Please forgive me if you feel I have the wrong attitude or have said anything wrong. Thank you for allowing me to express my opinion. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. Haribol.

It's unfortunate that some people are not interested in hearing the words of Srila Prabhupada. (I'm not speaking about you-Guest). But I certainly do not apologize for quoting His Divine Grace. Srila Prabhupada in his last will and testament stated that there were to be no changes in how the Society was to be run in the future. It is not a question of whether or not one thinks that one has a better plan or a better idea. If someone thinks that they do do, they are free to start their own organization, but Srila Prabhupada made it quite clear that for his organization changes are not acceptable. The only problems we experienced in ISKCON were the result of not following Srila Prabhupada's instructions. There was never a problem when his instructions were clearly followed.

 

As far as the difference between a temple and a monastery is concerned, it is quite clear that Srila Prabhupada never intended the Temple to be a monastery. He welcomed everyone to stay in the Temple, male or female, with the restriction that married couples may not stay together if living in the Temple, and that anyone desiring more than the bare necessities must live and work outside in order to obtain those things. He made it quite clear that there was to be absolutely no sense gratification in the Temple, only service to the Deities and preaching. If one desires more, one must live and work outside as I do. Living in the temple means no salaries, no watching of mundane movies or television, no ordering pizza, etc. etc. etc. Even if one is living outside, one can offer many types of service to the Lord, but one must not make a mockery of the temples that Srila Prabhupada set up, by living in the Temple and engaging in married or unmarried sense gratification or drawing a salary. It is certainly no disgrace to live outside the Temple, but it is no doubt offensive to live in the Temple as an enjoyer of the Lord's house. If you live in the Lord's house, you must live there as a humble servant of the Lord, otherwise, live as a gentleman or a lady on the outside.

[Guest guest]

I feel that there are some metaphysical laws which are part of Sanatana Dharma that if they are not adhered to then chaos is the result. Or if not outrigt chaos then "you get what you pay for" as far as the benefic effects of even having an external structure like a temple, matha, or monastery in the first place.

 

One metaphysical law is if pujas are done properly when the priests are happy

then this invokes a type of white magic. Knowing this, anyone who is aligned with whatever temple, matha, or monastery would want to make sure that all of the Temple priests are bothe qualified and happy, number one.

 

That is why some, not all, Hindu organizations have financial renumeration for their priests: either in the form of non-cash contribution such as room and board and/ or cash contributions such as pay the priests a salary. They know the metaphysical law that to attract devonic beings in the pujas then the priests have to be happy and content.

 

We can see this law of metaphysics at work whenever in the Vedic literatures we see a greeting like this: "My dear brahamana, I hope you are peacefully executing your duties and that your mind is not disturbed."

 

Another metaphysical law is that any sane person would not want to agitate the person doing the pujas so that they become angry. Then the asuric forces are invoked during the puja. So that is something that some Hindu organizations keep in mind vis-a-vis remuneration for the priests and any brahminical person connected with a Temple.

 

Therefore some Hindu temples and monasteries which invite guests to observe puja ceremonies are very careful to make sure to keep the priests can fix their minds in sattva-guna so that the pujas are sattvic and invoke blessings.

 

This is the metaphysical reason for being very, very clear about what you are doing in any temple milieu according to some rsis. Any time a saintly person is

disrespected, then while that person might not retaliate, surely the Istha Devata of that person is not going to just sit there and take it.

 

This is why whatever you do in a temple, or whatever your official policy is going to be, in my opinion you have to be very very clear about what you are doing to keep the pujas invoking blessings from the Gods and Goddesses and not mischief and mayhem from the asuras. If you allow all sorts of non-sattvic behavior to go on, then what you sow is what you will reap.

 

If a priest is not really qualified by his personal sattvic qualities to be doing pujas, if the temple mathavasis are not really controlling their senses and thus not really qualified to stay there, if sadhakas are not really following all of the principles and precepts strictly by doing sattvic sadhana,

 

if sannyasis and temple presidents are forbidding any Hindu sadhu in their lineage from entering the temple but any garden variety atheist or meat-eater is welcomed with open arms,

 

then no matter what external laws and precepts you set into motion, then on the inner planes the devas and Gods cannot give their full blessings. In such a case what is the point in having a temple or a matha or a monastery to begin with? because the metaphysical law is what you sow, so shall you reap.

[Kulapavana]

 

The temple is not a community managed by a kshatriya. The temple is an ashram for renounced sevakas of the Lord.

 

Not true. Actually Srila Prabhupada established the temples as PREACHING CENTERS and centers for cultural transformation of the surrounding communities. Ashram for renounciates is merely a PART of the temple. Prabhupada had a very broad vision of cultural revolution but the small minded people refuse to see it.

 

Mature householder devotees managing the temple usually relate a lot better to the community that supports this temple than a renounced sadhu. Some of such "tyagis" have a hard time relating to children causing "disturbance" in the temple for example. How can you preach if you cant properly relate to the congregation?

 

Lets face it, prabhu - most people coming to the temple are householders and most devotees in our movement are householders as well. If you think that sannyasis and brahmacaris are nowadays best qualified to run the temples you disregard the FACTS and experiences of the last 40 years. I'm glad not everybody in our movement is blind to the obvious lessons Krsna gave us in these 40 years.

[Guest guest]

Then you should do what Kulapavana prabhu has suggested. Quit sitting in the comfort of your living room and criticizing others. Go out there and take that position and do it for free.

 

 

Just because he is full-time and cannot work outside, it does not logically follow that he can be paid a salary. If he wants a salary, he must work outside, according to Srila Prabhupada. Paying a salary is strictly prohibited for any and all temple devotees.

[Guest guest]

According to Theist, it if after 1979, it's hardly an 'old timer'. So the cut-off date must be from before 1979.

 

 

May I please inquire what is the qualification or cut-off date to be considered an "old timer"?

 

Thank you & Hare Krishna.