Salary for the Temple Presidents!!

[cbrahma]

 

I suggest you follow your own advice and do some learning first.

 

It's not like ISKCON has hordes of young men lining up to become Brahmacaries and temple presidents. We just have to make the best of a bad bargain.

 

Under the circumstances, I see nothing wrong with salaries to Temple Presidents.

I don't get it. How do salaries help a struggling temple?

[ksbh]

Good point but a temple struggling to pay a temple president is better than a struggling temple with no leader.

 

Just my opinion!

 

 

I don't get it. How do salaries help a struggling temple?

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't get it. How do salaries help a struggling temple?

 

Sometimes leaders are worth their pay and then-some even in economic terms. Why do non-profit organisations and charities pay good money to qualified staf? Because qualified staff makes things happen. And this is the end game: to establish thriving temples with good outreach programs. If it can be demonstrated that salaried householder devotees can turn things around, by all means go for it. Things have changed a lot in our temples since 1970's and there is no need to re-invent the wheel trying to solve these types of problems. There are millions of people employed by very successful religious organisations out there and we can learn a thing or two from them.

[ksbh]

A balanced, thoughtful and neutral post. I couldn't agree more, prabhu.

 

The ones complaining are likely the disgruntled ones looking for faults.

 

 

Sometimes leaders are worth their pay and then-some even in economic terms. Why do non-profit organisations and charities pay good money to qualified staf? Because qualified staff makes things happen. And this is the end game: to establish thriving temples with good outreach programs. If it can be demonstrated that salaried householder devotees can turn things around, by all means go for it. Things have changed a lot in our temples since 1970's and there is no need to re-invent the wheel trying to solve these types of problems. There are millions of people employed by very successful religious organisations out there and we can learn a thing or two from them.

[cbrahma]

 

Sometimes leaders are worth their pay and then-some even in economic terms. Why do non-profit organisations and charities pay good money to qualified staf? Because qualified staff makes things happen. And this is the end game: to establish thriving temples with good outreach programs. If it can be demonstrated that salaried householder devotees can turn things around, by all means go for it. Things have changed a lot in our temples since 1970's and there is no need to re-invent the wheel trying to solve these types of problems. There are millions of people employed by very successful religious organisations out there and we can learn a thing or two from them.

What a mundane analysis.

[cbrahma]

 

A balanced, thoughtful and neutral post. I couldn't agree more, prabhu.

 

The ones complaining are likely the disgruntled ones looking for faults.

Correcting philosophical and practical deviations is hardly fault-finding.

[ksbh]

But you are not Prabhupada.

 

 

Correcting philosophical and practical deviations is hardly fault-finding.

[Kulapavana]

 

What a mundane analysis.

 

It may be mundane, but it works pretty much every time.

[cbrahma]

 

It may be mundane, but it works pretty much every time.

I'm sure. It's on the material platform. It should work like all mundane religions.

[Kulapavana]

 

I'm sure. It's on the material platform. It should work like all mundane religions.

 

Prabhu, on some level ALL religions have mundane dimension to them. And if we can make that mundane dimension very efficient and successful it will greatly help in our organized spiritual pursuits. If you have a well run temple you can send devotees out on harinama or book distribution every day, you can organize nice festivals and preaching engagements, you can feed people good prasadam, etc.

 

In my time I managed the affairs of more then one temple and I am not just speculating here, you need good people to manage projects. True, back then we did not have to pay anybody a salary as we had plenty of qualified brahmacaris to run our projects, but times HAVE changed greatly. I am not saying that you must pay people a salary in every case, only that sometimes it may be unavoidable.

[cbrahma]

 

Prabhu, on some level ALL religions have mundane dimension to them. And if we can make that mundane dimension very efficient and successful it will greatly help in our organized spiritual pursuits. If you have a well run temple you can send devotees out on harinama or book distribution every day, you can organize nice festivals and preaching engagements, you can feed people good prasadam, etc.

 

In my time I managed the affairs of more then one temple and I am not just speculating here, you need good people to manage projects. True, back then we did not have to pay anybody a salary as we had plenty of qualified brahmacaris to run our projects, but times HAVE changed greatly. I am not saying that you must pay people a salary in every case, only that sometimes it may be unavoidable.

Prabhupada did not want his presidents to be salaried precisely because he did not see his temples as operating on a mundane level, but empowered by the Lord Caitanya's mercy.

[Guruvani]

 

you need good people to manage projects.

No, you need good Vaishnavas to manage a temple and a good Vaishnava would never ask for a salary or even take one if offered.

 

Srila Prabhupada said grihastas could support themselves by selling books,

Grihastas that refuse to enter secular society and take a job can sell books but they should never be given a dime for doing service in the temple.

 

Paying salary to temple presidents is just a pay-off by the GBC as they all work in concert to milk ISKCON for every dime they can get.

 

It's criminal and outragious.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada did not want his presidents to be salaried precisely because he did not see his temples as operating on a mundane level, but empowered by the Lord Caitanya's mercy.

 

No, he did not want his t.p's to be salaried because he had plenty of devotees willing to do that job for free. And if you think that in his days temple managers were always doing such a good job you should read his letters or talk to some old timers to set the record straight. All kinds of serious abuse happened, courtesy of your "transcendental system of management". And lets not even go into the subject of "fund raising" schemes employed by the temples in those days because there are some real gems among them.

 

So the salary system may not be perfect, but neither is the alternative. I would much rather pay a honest man a honest salary then see the center decline into oblivion for lack of a skilled manager, or use free services of some unreliable or untrustworthy person. You have to be pragmatic, not dogmatic in such cases.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada said grihastas could support themselves by selling books,

Grihastas that refuse to enter secular society and take a job can sell books but they should never be given a dime for doing service in the temple.

 

Paying salary to temple presidents is just a pay-off by the GBC as they all work in concert to milk ISKCON for every dime they can get.

 

 

I dont see too many people in our movement (especially grihasthas) who manage to support themselves by selling books. Can you support yourself by selling books? If so, then why are you not doing it to make a living?

 

As to working full time outside and managing a temple for free, that is done all the time in some small centers, but in a big temple management is a full time job. Perhaps we can get retired old devotees to do that, as they are financially provided for by the outside system we criticize so much in our classes.

[Guruvani]

 

I dont see too many people in our movement (especially grihasthas) who manage to support themselves by selling books. Can you support yourself by selling books? If so, then why are you not doing it to make a living?

 

 

I don't need to sell books because I have been able to find outside work and support myself.

Book selling is for those who refuse to work in secular society.

 

I am far from the ideal devotee.

 

Besides that, I lost my charm for book distribution when ISKCON went astray with it's neophyte guru system.

 

I personally can't distribute books in good consciousness knowing that as the result some poor soul might end up going to a temple and getting cheating by some rogue guru in ISKCON.

 

Unless and until ISKCON can represent Srila Prabhupada properly, I will not distrubute any more books.

 

I don't even preach.

 

I keep my religion to myself.

 

On internet forums is the only place I discuss Krishna consciousness.

 

In my ordinary life I keep it to myself.

[ksbh]

Some interesting excuses for not executing the order of Srila Prabhupada to distribute books.

 

I should make a note of this somewhere. Will come in handy when someone asks why I don't distribute books.

 

 

I don't need to sell books because I have been able to find outside work and support myself.

Book selling is for those who refuse to work in secular society.

 

I am far from the ideal devotee.

 

Besides that, I lost my charm for book distribution when ISKCON went astray with it's neophyte guru system.

 

I personally can't distribute books in good consciousness knowing that as the result some poor soul might end up going to a temple and getting cheating by some rogue guru in ISKCON.

 

Unless and until ISKCON can represent Srila Prabhupada properly, I will not distrubute any more books.

 

I don't even preach.

 

I keep my religion to myself.

 

On internet forums is the only place I discuss Krishna consciousness.

 

In my ordinary life I keep it to myself.

[Kulapavana]

and as to the issue of salary for devotees in general, tell me please which is more honest in your opinion:

 

- a reasonable salary for the hard work of managing a large temple

 

- siphoning unrestricted and uregulated amounts of cash for "personal needs" from donations received in the name of "preaching" by our current gurus, sannyasis and other "unpaid" officials as it has been done in our movement since the early days.

 

who do you think abuses the system, and who gets more money?

[Guruvani]

 

and as to the issue of salary for devotees in general, tell me please which is more honest in your opinion:

 

- a reasonable salary for the hard work of managing a large temple

 

- siphoning unrestricted and uregulated amounts of cash for "personal needs" from donations received in the name of "preaching" by our current gurus, sannyasis and other "unpaid" officials as it has been done in our movement since the early days.

 

who do you think abuses the system, and who gets more money?

the choice between two evils is not a viable option.

The only option is to support the preaching mission and NOT be supported by it.

 

when the only option is between evils, then it is time to rethink the whole institutional concept altogether.

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't need to sell books because I have been able to find outside work and support myself.

Book selling is for those who refuse to work in secular society.

 

 

At least you are honest, prabhu. Distributing books is a very tough way to make a living. Especially since nowadays fewer and fewer people read books in general. Hats off to those devotees who still go out on sankirtana these days... I have noticed that these books dont neccessarily make people supportive of Iskcon.

[Guruvani]

 

I have noticed that these books dont neccessarily make people supportive of Iskcon.

 

My first contact was with the books alone.

No temple.

No devotees.

No prasadam.

Nothing but the books.

 

After reading these books for a few weeks I went off to L.A. to join the movement.

So, if somebody does that today then he/she could end up getting cheated by a neophyte ISKCON guru who falls down.

 

So, I don't want anything to do with such a process.

 

I don't preach at all to anybody - not even my kids.

 

I took them to temples, feasts and festivals throughout their early lives but I preached very little.

 

If their own curiousity opens up at some time in their lives then they can read the books and find out about Krishna consciousness.

 

I don't like "preaching".

 

I like sincere questions and answers, but I don't like to "preach" to ANYBODY.

 

Obviously, I am no Srila Prabhupada.

[Kulapavana]

 

the choice between two evils is not a viable option.

The only option is to support the preaching mission and NOT be supported by it.

 

when the only option is between evils, then it is time to rethink the whole institutional concept altogether.

 

That is why I'm saying we could learn a thing or two from successful religious institutions out there. Most of our leaders are not truly held accoutable for their financial dealings and that leads to a lot of corruption. Unless we propose a better solution we can only chose the lesser evil.

[Guruvani]

 

That is why I'm saying we could learn a thing or two from successful religious institutions out there. Most of our leaders are not truly held accoutable for their financial dealings and that leads to a lot of corruption. Unless we propose a better solution we can only chose the lesser evil.

 

I think the Krishna consciousness movement should move away from the "religious institution" concept and move towards "Bhakti-yoga Center" concept.

 

I don't think KC should be "preached" but offered to society as a first class yoga system.

 

I think the "religious" fervor should be abandoned for the yogic aspect of Krishna consciousness.

 

KC is a yoga system, not a religion.

 

I don't like it when KC gets watered down to some "religious" faith.

 

Faith is just thje first step in KC.

If it doesn't quickly become a spiritual science then the movement degrades into a religious cult as we see today.

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't think KC should be "preached" but offered to society as a first class yoga system.

 

I think the "religious" fervor should be abandoned for the yogic aspect of Krishna consciousness.

 

KC is a yoga system, not a religion.

 

 

While I agree with you to a large extent, I dont think this is what Srila Prabhupada had in mind. He was very much into the religious and institutional side of KC, often admiring what Christians (and sometimes Muslims) were able to achieve with their tradition in the sense of global presence and control. This is what he often talked about with high level politicians. He wanted big temples, big crowds, big festivals - that was very much his mood.

[Guruvani]

 

He wanted big temples, big crowds, big festivals - that was very much his mood.

 

But when these big temples, big crowds and big festivals become devices for neophyte gurus to amass a large following of disciples then I think it is time to stop the circus and move towards showing society a good example of how human society can live in harmony with nature depending on cows, trees and agriculture.

 

Srila Prabhupada very much wanted to show the example of "simple living and high thinking".

 

The circus aspect of the KC movement renders the movement into an entertainment novelty and simply increases the number of neophyte followers of a neophyte guru.

 

ISKCON has floundered since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

Obviously, the circus atmosphere of the KC movement needs to be replaced by a practical example of a man and nature in harmony with God.

[Kulapavana]

 

But when these big temples, big crowds and big festivals become devices for neophyte gurus to amass a large following of disciples then I think it is time to stop the circus and move towards showing society a good example of how human society can live in harmony with nature depending on cows, trees and agriculture.

 

When his disciples started fighting over positions and rooms in the opulent temples, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was disappointed with them and made the now famous comment to Srila Prabhupada: "If you ever get money, print books". Perhaps in case of Srila Prabhupada the comment would have been: "Lets sell these big temples and move to the farms".

 

Yet I think we could do both, if we decided to pursue a balanced approach and adopt strict accountability rules for all Iskcon officials. Preaching centers in the cities are very much needed, just like big temples are needed in cities with large congregations.

 

As a professional manager I tend to look at these things from a purely pragmatic perspective. Wherever money and power is involved, there must be a system of checks and balances, as well as a system of personal accountability. Right now Iskcon has neither and thus it seems like it is doomed to fail. What a pity, what a waste...