Salary for the Temple Presidents!!

[Guruvani]

 

What a pity, what a waste...

Or, is it just a sign from above that it's time for the KC movement to move on and find a bold new world beyond the institutional cult in the greater society which needs to see a better way?

 

ISKCON is now totally dependent on all the evils of the world that are causing global warming and environmental collapse.

 

ISKCON should be the world leader in the village concept of self-sufficient living.

Right now ISKCON is just a cult of little gurus and their selfish ambitions.

 

Again........... become a mouse.

[cbrahma]

 

But you are not Prabhupada.

I don't have to BE Prabhupada. I just have to know his teachings.

[cbrahma]

 

Sometimes leaders are worth their pay and then-some even in economic terms. Why do non-profit organisations and charities pay good money to qualified staf? Because qualified staff makes things happen. And this is the end game: to establish thriving temples with good outreach programs. If it can be demonstrated that salaried householder devotees can turn things around, by all means go for it. Things have changed a lot in our temples since 1970's and there is no need to re-invent the wheel trying to solve these types of problems. There are millions of people employed by very successful religious organisations out there and we can learn a thing or two from them.

So the salary is needed as incentive? I can't believe I'm hearing this? What happened to bhakti?

[cbrahma]

 

That is why I'm saying we could learn a thing or two from successful religious institutions out there. Most of our leaders are not truly held accoutable for their financial dealings and that leads to a lot of corruption. Unless we propose a better solution we can only chose the lesser evil.

What exactly counts as a 'successful' religion.

Are we talking dharma, artha...kama?

[Kulapavana]

 

So the salary is needed as incentive? I can't believe I'm hearing this? What happened to bhakti?

 

Incentive? Have you read anything I posted here? Do you have a family? Who pays your bills and puts clothes on your kids backs? Where do you get your money to live?

 

The salary is a matter of sheer neccessity for householders.

[Kulapavana]

 

What exactly counts as a 'successful' religion.

Are we talking dharma, artha...kama?

 

When more then 95% of your converts leave your church you are a DISMAL FAILURE. This is what Iskcon is today. When your church cant take care of the needs of people who surrendered everything they had to it and served it for decades, that church is a DISMAL FAILURE.

 

You can set some very lofty goals for what 'successful religion' might be in your book but you better know what constitutes a failure in that context.

 

A successful religion is one growing in numbers, which has happy and well adjusted members who ejoy religious functions and are proud of their denomination. A succesful religion has children who want to continue their parents path and who want to pass this religion on their own children.

 

You can cover up the failures of our movement with some cool sounding philosophical arguments, but the empty temples and the unhappy customers will tell you the truth.

[celina12]

 

When more then 95% of your converts leave your church you are a DISMAL FAILURE. This is what Iskcon is today. When your church cant take care of the needs of people who surrendered everything they had to it and served it for decades, that church is a DISMAL FAILURE.

 

You can set some very lofty goals for what 'successful religion' might be in your book but you better know what constitutes a failure in that context.

 

A successful religion is one growing in numbers, which has happy and well adjusted members who ejoy religious functions and are proud of their denomination. A succesful religion has children who want to continue their parents path and who want to pass this religion on their own children.

 

You can cover up the failures of our movement with some cool sounding philosophical arguments, but the empty temples and the unhappy customers will tell you the truth.

 

I think that is very true. Money is important to keep the ball running. It's important to organize well. An be corruption free. There are plenty of groups out there, who you can take examples from.

 

JSN!

[cbrahma]

 

Incentive? Have you read anything I posted here? Do you have a family? Who pays your bills and puts clothes on your kids backs? Where do you get your money to live?

 

The salary is a matter of sheer neccessity for householders.

You think presidents didn't have families in the past? They didnt' draw a salary then. They just didnt' buy expensive watches, cars , clothes etc...

[cbrahma]

 

I think that is very true. Money is important to keep the ball running. It's important to organize well. An be corruption free. There are plenty of groups out there, who you can take examples from.

 

JSN!

An be corruption free. In't that special.

[celina12]

 

An be corruption free. In't that special.

 

hmm. I can smell the sarcasm. Either corruption is a problem in ISKCON.

[cbrahma]

 

hmm. I can smell the sarcasm. Either corruption is a problem in ISKCON.

How could corruption touch that ever pristine organization:rolleyes2:

[Vedesu]

 

You think presidents didn't have families in the past? They didnt' draw a salary then.

Their needs were minimal in those days. I can only speak from my own limited experience, but the Temple Presidents that I came in contact with were generally in their mid to late 20s during the '70's while Srila Prabhupada was with us in his manifest lila. Although these TPs were married, all were living within the Temples, not on the outside, being that they did not yet have families. Well, maybe one or two had a newborn at some point, but even then, the husband and wife still lived within the Temples somehow or other, using separate quarters, and not really living as a family unit. Times have changed.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating that salaries should be given, just echoing what Kulapavana prabhu has said, that we need to examine and take into serious consideration the significant change in time and circumstance between that era and the present one. If there are qualified devotees to serve as TPs who require very little maintenance and no salary, then by all means, engage them as such.

[tensriram]

Call it by some other name say "Subsistance allowance" and tender it out for minimum requirements that would meed to be provided

[Kulapavana]

 

You think presidents didn't have families in the past? They didnt' draw a salary then. They just didnt' buy expensive watches, cars , clothes etc...

 

This is just a myth... most of these people were taking money for their personal needs from temple coffers, no questions asked! Some still do, just like our current gurus and sannyasis. There always was (and still is) very little financial accountability and transparency in Iskcon. The top-down autocratic system of management adopted by Iskcon makes such abuses very easy. I've been around for a very long time and I could tell you lots of stories to back up my claims. Many of these guys stole enough money to live very comfortably on the outside.

 

As to the "expensive items never bought with temple money back then"... LOL! prabhu, where have you been?

[Guruvani]

 

This is just a myth... most of these people were taking money for their personal needs from temple coffers, no questions asked! Some still do, just like our current gurus and sannyasis. There always was (and still is) very little financial accountability and transparency in Iskcon. The top-down autocratic system of management adopted by Iskcon makes such abuses very easy. I've been around for a very long time and I could tell you lots of stories to back up my claims. Many of these guys stole enough money to live very comfortably on the outside.

 

As to the "expensive items never bought with temple money back then"... LOL! prabhu, where have you been?

 

How many years during the Prabhupada-era did you spend in ISKCON to be making this claim?

[Kulapavana]

 

How many years during the Prabhupada-era did you spend in ISKCON to be making this claim?

 

Are you saying that these things were not happening during Prabhupada-era? Or that they were merely very rare exceptions? I have joined in 1979 but the practices I have witnessed then were firmly in place from earlier days and I have heard plenty of stories from devotees who were there in the 70's. The system did not magically change when Prabhupada left. Those who had control in those days usually had no problem "appropriating" temple funds for their personal needs.

[Guruvani]

 

Are you saying that these things were not happening during Prabhupada-era?

I am saying that from my own experience I observed that during the Prabhupada-era ISKCON was very rigid and many of the temple presidents were very austere and upright in their conduct.

There were probably some exceptions, but in the Prabhupada-era ISKCON was very rigid and the corruption that we see today was the exception and not the rule.

 

But, your assertion that such corruption was commonplace is misconceived in my own estimation.

 

Most often if a temple president needed some money he would go out and sell books and take a little percentage with the approval of the GBC.

 

But, this accusation that they were just dipping into temple funds is not accurate in my own estimation.

 

the system of having a treasurer to handle temple funds would have required that two devotees were in cahoots to embezzle money from the temple funds.

 

Most usually the treasurer was a very trusted and rigid devotee.

For a temple president to take money from temple funds he would have be working in concert with a corrupt treasurer.

 

Such scenarios were very rare in the Prabhupada-era.

[Kulapavana]

 

But, your assertion that such corruption was commonplace is misconceived in my own estimation.

 

 

I was not saying these things lightly but your perspective is valid as well. Some stories from that era (like Laguna Beach temple goings on, Japan, Germany, France, or New Vrindavan) definitely form a negative picture of that era, but I'm sure there were many truly strict and proper temples as well.

 

I apologize for my generalisations.

[cbrahma]

 

When more then 95% of your converts leave your church you are a DISMAL FAILURE. This is what Iskcon is today. When your church cant take care of the needs of people who surrendered everything they had to it and served it for decades, that church is a DISMAL FAILURE.

 

You can set some very lofty goals for what 'successful religion' might be in your book but you better know what constitutes a failure in that context.

 

A successful religion is one growing in numbers, which has happy and well adjusted members who ejoy religious functions and are proud of their denomination. A succesful religion has children who want to continue their parents path and who want to pass this religion on their own children.

 

You can cover up the failures of our movement with some cool sounding philosophical arguments, but the empty temples and the unhappy customers will tell you the truth.

Nice. So it becomes a successful material religion. Pay the president a salary and give everybody else 10 dollars a week.

[cbrahma]

 

Are you saying that these things were not happening during Prabhupada-era? Or that they were merely very rare exceptions? I have joined in 1979 but the practices I have witnessed then were firmly in place from earlier days and I have heard plenty of stories from devotees who were there in the 70's. The system did not magically change when Prabhupada left. Those who had control in those days usually had no problem "appropriating" temple funds for their personal needs.

Of at least 2 temple presidents who left New Dwarka one was rumored to have absconded with funds and one was known to have purloined the treasury.

 

Under this kind of accountablity, salaries are moot.

[Kulapavana]

 

Nice. So it becomes a successful material religion. Pay the president a salary and give everybody else 10 dollars a week.

 

Personally I think it would be better if Iskcon became at least such a "successful material religion" as opposed to the all-around failure it is now. If it was not for the generosity of the Indian community most Iskcon temples would have closed down long time ago.

[Guruvani]

 

Personally I think it would be better if Iskcon became at least such a "successful material religion"

 

ISKCON is not a religion.

ISKCON is a society of devotees.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a spiritual movement, not a religion.

[suchandra]

 

Personally I think it would be better if Iskcon became at least such a "successful material religion" as opposed to the all-around failure it is now. If it was not for the generosity of the Indian community most Iskcon temples would have closed down long time ago.

 

Yes, this is a good proposal, why not make the ISKCON temples into Indian ethnological museums or Indian-style hotels with oriental guest rooms and vegetarian Bengali restaurant? Another idea how to position temples financialy secure is to only open temples at places where daily thousands of Hindus come for darshan of the Deities.

[Kulapavana]

 

Of at least 2 temple presidents who left New Dwarka one was rumored to have absconded with funds and one was known to have purloined the treasury.

 

Under this kind of accountablity, salaries are moot.

 

I agree with you here. The entire system needs to be made transparent, with proper checks and balances in place to avoid fraud. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

[Kulapavana]

 

ISKCON is not a religion.

ISKCON is a society of devotees.

Gaudiya Vaishnavism is a spiritual movement, not a religion.

 

Maybe we see it that way but to the rest of the world Iskcon meets every definition of an organized church, or religion (in the sense of denomination).