RE: [t'venkatam] The Vedas as apourushEyam: An idea the Western mind struggles to grasp

[Guest guest]

Swamy!

 

Pranams!

 

Your explanation is very opt and should be convincing to them. God knows

how to convince somebody who is 'not open' and does not qualify to receive

knowledge of this order. Thanks for giving us a tip which we can use

effortlessly when confronted with them.

 

In fact, I think by so saying Einstein has opened up many such flow of

thoughts in relation to diverse topics. OTOH it is also true that these

explanations that we give/accord to those such topics fall well under the

achintya adbhuta shakti of Chit Prakruthi(Lakshmi's) whose real modus

operandi is well beyond the grasp of our mortal indriyas/intellect, then

what to say of Narayana.

 

Vedas say in no uncertain terms that one who thinks he who says he knows

Parabrahman, is the one who does not know anything abt him and likewise one

who thinks it is beyond his capability to comprehend him is the one who

knows him (if my memory serves right, it is isavasya that say - Yasyamatam

tasya matam matam yasya na veda sah; avijnatam vijanatam vijnatamavijanatam,

pls correct me if I am wrong in quoting upanishat correctly, or is it

Kena?). So comprehending Parabrahman by Chaturmukha is impossible let alone

we mortals.

 

My point of view on apourusheya would be something like this:

 

1. Veda is anadi and nitya like the Parabrahman. None knows its origin.

2. Veda is pure and faultless as being vouchsafed by specific mantradrastas

of vedas.

3. We cite all those mantradrastas as 'Rushis' and not authors while picking

up relevant stotras being seen by them.

3. Since it is anadi none knows fully the total corpus of slokas hidden in

it at a given point of time/yuga. It is a huge corpus or knowledge.

4. Due to point 2 above we take it as a Pramana against various other

pourusheya works. It is the ultimate truth for us. All the other works

dwelling on truth follows vedas and not vice versa.

5. Veda is faultless because it does not have any doshas that otherwise

affect works which are pourusheya.

6. Hindus gives importance to 'darshana' involving our soul - 'atmavare

drushtavyo, srotavyo, manthavyo nidhidhyasitavyo'. Of course, we need to

exhaust our intellect to enable soul contemplate and make amends to 'see'

parabrahman.

 

It was he from whose breath veda appeared in the beginning. Again who can

sense/feel the full flavour of the veda. Once again it is next to

impossible(we can cite Bharadwaja's plight and indra's advise in this

regard). Thus no one can master vedas completely. In fact, as the yugas

pass, the accessibility of vedas also decrease with the decreasing level of

satva in the universe.

 

I tried in vain to get a full grasp of the tattvas spelt out by Sri

Madhwacharya on Veda being Apourusheya (I heard that it is he who has given

detailed explanation on why it is called as apourusheya) and could not able

to understand the language/purport. However, I am not feeling let down but

trying to collate sources which dwells on this topic with his followers'

lucid explanations on the same. Because this is the one topic that

interested many unvedic preachers and atheists against whom Madhwacharya did

aim his pithy statements in support of veda being apourusheya in his Vishnu

Tattva Vinirnaya.

 

Pls pardon my childish rantings. But your forceful writing is very inviting

indeed even for an ignorant like me. I would only say I have found out the

ladder and only trying to climb it. Hence I am convinced that vedas are

apourusheya but need to strenghthen the very thought.

 

 

Thanks

sukumar

 

 

 

tiruvenkatam

[tiruvenkatam]On Behalf Of sudarshan madabushi

Sunday, September 03, 2006 3:34 PM

tiruvenkatam; ;

oppiliappan

[t'venkatam] The Vedas as "apourushEyam": An idea the Western

mind struggles to grasp

 

 

 

Dear friends & members,

 

Sometimes when I travel abroad (mostly as part of my

job) to parts of the world in Europe or the Far-East

cities, I meet with people in those countries who the

moment they come to learn I hail from India, strike up

a conversation about Indian philosophy, religion, and

spiritualism....

 

It all invariably starts with their noticing my

vegetarianism at the dinner table. They curiously ask

me how I manage to survive on a strict diet of milk,

bread, butter, jam, corn-flakes and green salads and

soups and then invariably the conversation gradually

veers around to talk of Indian mysticism, the

'kumbh-mela', varieties of Indian gods and

cow-worship....

 

****************

 

During such conversations, I have always been amazed

how little is the knowledge the average western mind

possesses about the fact-sheet of India's great

religion and philosophy. In comparison, the average

Indian mind's knowledge of Christianity or Buddhism, I

would venture to say, is almost encyclopaedic.

 

For example, very few commoners in the western world

know anything about the source of all religious

scipture in India -- the Veda. A few of them have

heard of the 'Bhagavath-gita'. The Gita has crept a

little into the common awareness of the west mainly

because it has been popularized somewhat over the

years by serious literary personalities in Europe and

America such as Aldous Huxley, Herman Hesse,

Schopenhauer, Ralph Waldo Emerson and others. But

little do commonfolk in the west know that the Gita

owes its original inspiration to yet another evenmore

ancient source viz. the Upanishads, which in

themselves are again only a sub-text of a vast body of

scriptures known as the Vedas.

 

***************

 

When I start explaining to my curious western friends

about the fundamental features of the Vedas, the first

thing to utterly amaze them is the fact that the Vedas

have no human authorship; that there is no one person

who actually wrote it down; that they have all been

bequeathed, from one generation to another, across

millions of years in India through the oral tradition

of learning called "guru-sishyA parampara"

(master-disciple school of oral learning).

 

When I further explain to them that we Hindus regard

the Vedas as "apowrushEyam" -- i.e. it does not owe

its existence to any human authorship; that it stands

alone as a self-existent, self-evident and eternal

body of Truth; that it was only been revealed to

ancient seers ("rshis") who merely intuited it all

through spiritual insight gained by years of 'tapas'

(penance and self-sacrifice).... When all this is

explained to them, the western friends cannot help

asking me incredulously, "But how can what you say be

true!"

 

On my part, I try not to be unduly surprised or

offended by the incredulity of the average western

mind vis-a-vis the very idea of "apowrushEyam". After

all, Christians and Muslims, we know belong to the

religious tradition of "Peoples of the Book" (i.e. the

Bible and Koran) which are sacred scriptural books

which owe their authorship and inspiration to

individuals -- such as the Prophets Mohammed, Jesus,

Moses and others. To the average western mind so

accustomed to its principal Book of scripture, the

Bible, being attributed to authorship by the Apostles

of Jesus, it can be indeed very, very difficult to

comprehend the very idea of "apowrushEyam".

 

************

 

To convince yet such incredulous westerners, very

often, I resort to a simple analogy in order to drive

home to them the validity of the idea the Vedas are

"apowrUshEyam". The analogy is borrowed form the

western world -- the world of physics and classical

music -- and then constructed in simple terms, in the

language and idiom of the western world again, so as

to help them relate really well to the idea, to grasp

its essentials and comprehend it thoroughly.

 

Here is the analogy which I share with you all too in

the hope that you may all wish to ponder upon it and,

if found convincing, may well want to use it yourself

in explaining the concept of "apowrushEyam" to your

own friends and acquaintainces (western and otherwise)

who may appear to you as difficult "doubting

Thomases".

 

****************

 

Einstein once said that while Beethoven only created

or crafted his music, Mozart's own was so pure that it

seemed to have been ever present in the universe,

waiting to be discovered by the master.

 

Einstein believed much the same of Physics too -- i.e.

beyond observations and theory, lay the music of the

spheres which, he wrote, revealed a "pre-established

harmony" exhibiting stunning symmetries. The laws of

nature such as those of Relativity Theory, were

waiting to be plucked out of the cosmos by someone

with a sympathetic ear. Thus it was far less laborious

calculation than the creative or intuitive processes

of "pure thought" to which Einstein attributed his

theories.

 

Scientists often describe the general relativity

theory as the most beautiful theory ever formulated.

Einstein himself always emphasized the importance of

recognizing the theory's beauty. "Hardly anyone who

has truly understood it will be able to escape the

charm of this theory".

 

The theory is essentially one man's view of how the

universe ought to be. And amazingly, the universe did

turn out to be pretty much as Einstein imagined.

 

***************

 

The great Einstein regarded his General Relativity

Theory not as something born out of personal

intellectual effort or inspiration but as Truth which

he happened to "discover" as "pure", "pre-established

harmony".

 

Einstein held the music of Mozart in the same light.

Mozart's music too was not so much music "composed" as

music "waiting to be plucked out of the cosmos by

someone with a sympathetic ear".

 

In much the same way above as Einstein regarded his

discoveries in Physics, or he appreciated the music of

Mozart, I explained to my western friends, the Vedas

too -- the principal source and inspiration of all

religious thought and scripture in Indi -- they too

are regarded by the Hindus as "apowrushEyam": in other

words, the Vedas are "so pure that they seemed to have

been ever present in the universe", "waiting (as it

were) to be discovered by the masters" known once in

ancient India as "rshis". The Vedas too are thus "pure

thought"; they are "pre-established harmony" revealing

the great laws and the "stunning symmetries" of the

Cosmos and all Existence.

 

And like Einstein's theory, I further go on to explain

to my friends, the Vedas too are "essentially one

man's view -- i.e. the "rshi's" view -- of how the

universe ought to be. And amazingly, the universe did

turn out to be, in several ways, pretty much as the

Vedas and the "rshi-s" imagined"!

 

*************

 

When I had taken to pains to explain all of the above

to my western friends, it sometimes occured to me that

not withstanding the simple but persuasive relevance

of the analogy, they still went away a little confused

and unconvinced by the thought that anything in this

world could be "apowrushEyam" --- un-authored,

self-existent, self-evident and eternal.

 

Let us for a moment leave westerners aside; their

incomprehension and incredulity can be quite forgiven.

What about Hindus themselves, I ask? How many of you

are totally convinced and yet not-so- convinced about

the idea?

 

Regards,

dAsan,

Sudarshan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________

India Answers: Share what you know. Learn something new

http://in.answers./

 

 

Namo VenkateshAya namah:

 

 

To Post a message, send it to: tiruvenkatam (AT) eGroups (DOT) com

 

To Un, send a blank message to:

tiruvenkatam- (AT) eGroups (DOT) com