bhagavAn ramaNa maharshi on NS/AS of patanjala yOga

[Guest guest]

If Ramana Maharshi did not endorse Patanjali Yoga why does He say 'Yogas

chitta vritti nirodhah is acceptable to all"?

 

praNAms Sundar Rajan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi might have endorsed patanjali's yOga for those who

want to persue their quest for the truth through yOga mArga...but what he

actually teaches is not PY's NS nor chitta vrutti nirOdha....From the below

mail which had been posted in 2005 ( picked from my mail box) it is that

ramaNa's teaching is not similar to patanajali's ashtAnga yOga

sAdhana...and more importantly from the below dialogues it is quite evident

that " yOga's chitta vrutti nirOdha is NOT recommended to all !!!

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

 

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09:19 AM ---------------------------

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Please respond to advaitin

 

advaitin

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bhagavAn ramaNa maharshi on NS/AS of patanjala yOga

 

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praNAms to all prabhujis

Hare Krishna

 

//quote //

 

 

Question: "Is samadhi, the eighth stage of raja yoga, the

same as the samadhi you speak of?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In yoga the term samadhi refers to

some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

>From here you have samadhan (steadiness) and you remain

calm and composed even while you are active. You realise that you are moved

by the deeper real Self within.  You have no worries, no anxieties, no

cares, for you come to realise that  there is nothing belonging to you. You

know that everything is done by  something with which you are in conscious

union.

 

 

Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of the mind).

But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical way.

Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by starvation.

As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of thoughts. Of

what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no

misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha (control)

is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

// unquote //

 

The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove that what

ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...Anyway, here below

more details of it.

 

Sofar, we have seen how even the neo vEdAntins like Swamy chidAnanda, Swamy

Dayananda Saraswati etc. have expressed their opinion on NS & why this is

not in line with vEdAnta's atmaikatwa jnAna. Now it is very very important

to see what Sri Bhagavan Ramana maharshi will say on this subject. Sri

Sunder Hattangadi prabhuji had provided some quotes from ramaNa in support

of NS but I dont know how our Sunder prabhuji has missed this important &

unambiguous observation wherein ramaNa categorically telling us there is a

difference between PS's NS & vEdAnta's Atmaikatva jnAna which is *sahaja*

to the jnAni irrespective of time & space. I humbly request PY followers

to read the following carefully & ensure that ramaNa's teaching is not that

of patanjali's ashtAnga yOga which is mainly consisting of deliberate

suppression of thoughts by the performer!!

 

My notes on NS in shankara's advaita is ready in manuscript & it has to be

keyed in the system. I hope I would be able to complete it withint a

couple of days.... In the meanwhile the following is really a good food

for thought for those who believe that ramaNa endorsing the patanjala yOga

& NS...

 

Thanks to my colleague who has kindly provided this link & full text of the

question & answers from his system.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

//quote //

 

http://www.hinduism.org.za/q&a.htm

 

 

 

 

Q  &  A

 

 

THE TEACHINGS OF SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI

Edited by David Godman; Arthur Osborne, Kavyakantha

G.Muni, Kurt Friedrichs, Mouni Sadhu.

 

 

 

MEDITATION AND CONCENTRATION

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi's insistence that awareness of the

"I" thought was a pre-requisite for Self-realisation led him

to the conclusion that all spiritual practices which did not

incorporate this feature were indirect and inefficient:

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi said "This path (attention to the ' I ' ) is

the direct path; all others are indirect ways. The first leads to

the Self, the others elsewhere. And even if the others do arrive at the

Self it is only because they lead at the  end to the first path which

ultimately carries them to the goal. So, in the end, the aspirants must

adopt the first path. Why not do so now? Why waste time?"

 

 

[Note: By David Godman: That is to say, other techniques may sometimes

bring one to an inner state of stillness in which self-attention or

self-awareness inadvertently takes place, but it is a very roundabout way

of reaching the Self.  Sri Ramana maintained that other techniques could

only take one to the place where self-enquiry starts and so he never

endorsed them unless he felt that particular questioners were unable or

unwilling to adopt self-enquiry.]

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi said: "The goal is the same for the one who meditates

[on an object] and the one who practises

self-enquiry. One attains stillness  through meditation, the other through

knowledge. One strives to attain something; the other seeks the one who

strives to attain. The former takes a longer time, but in the end attains

the Self."

 

 

[Note: Although Sri Ramana vigorously defended his views on self-enquiry

he never insisted that anyone change their beliefs or practices and, if he

was unable to convince his followers to take up self-enquiry, he would

happily give advice on other methods.]

 

Question by a disciple: "There is more pleasure in dhyana

(concentration) than in sensual enjoyments. Yet the mind runs

after the sensual enjoyments and does not seek the former.

Why is it so?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Pleasure or pain are aspects of the

mind only. Our essential nature is happiness. But we have

forgotten the Self and imagine  that the body or the mind is the Self. It

is that wrong identity that gives rise  to misery. What is to be done?

This mental tendency is very ancient and has continued for innumerable

past births.Hence it has grown

strong. That must go before the essential nature, happiness,

asserts itself."

 

Question: "It is said that the Self is beyond the mind and yet

the realisation is with the mind. The mind cannot think it. It

cannot be thought of by the mind and the mind alone can

realise it. How are these contradictions to be reconciled?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Atman (Self) is realised with mrita

manas (dead mind), that is, mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward.

Then the mind sees its own source and becomes that (the Self). It is not

as the subject perceiving an object.

 

 

When the room is dark, a lamp is necessary to illumine, and

eyes are necessary to recognise objects. But when the sun has risen there

is no need of a lamp to see objects. To see the sun no lamp is necessary,

it is enough that you turn your eyes towards the self-luminous sun.

 

 

Similarly with the mind. To see objects the reflected light of the mind is

necessary. To see the Heart it is enough that the mind is turned towards

it. Then mind loses itself and Heart shines forth.

 

 

The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness.

When the ego, however, dominates it, it functions as the

reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind, being not limited

by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only aware.

 

 

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to them, 'Show me

the mind and then you will know what to do'. The fact is that the mind is

only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of

doing so or by a desire? Your thoughts and desires are part and parcel of

the mind. The mind is simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore

it is foolish to attempt to kill the mind by means of the mind. The only

way of doing it to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then

fade away of its own accord.

 

Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of the

mind). But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical

way. Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by

starvation. As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of

thoughts. Of what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace

and no misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

(control) is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

 

 

How then can the benefit be made lasting? It is by finding the

cause of misery. Misery is due to the perception of objects. If

they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so

misery is wiped off.

 

 

'How will objects cease to be'? is the next question. The sruti

(scriptures) and the sages say that the objects are only mental creations.

They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter and ascertain the

truth of the statement. The result will be the conclusion that the

objective world is in the subjective consciousness.The Self is thus the

only reality which permeates and also envelopes the world. Since there is

no duality, no thoughts will arise to disturb your peace. This is

realisation of the Self. The Self is eternal and so also is realisation.

 

Abhyasa (spiritual practice) consists in withdrawal within the

Self every time you are disturbed by thought. It is not

concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the Self."

 

Question: "Why is concentration ineffective?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "To ask the mind to kill the mind is like making the

thief the policeman. He will go with you and pretend to catch the thief,

but nothing will be gained. So you must turn inward and see from where the

mind rises and then it will cease to exist."

 

Question: "In turning the mind inwards, are we not still employing the

mind?'

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi:"Of course we are employing the mind. It is well known

and admitted that only with the help of the mind can the mind be killed.

But instead setting about saying there is a mind, and I want to kill it,

you begin to seek the source of the mind, and you find the mind does not

exist at all. The mind, turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects.

Turned inwards, it becomes itself the Self."

 

 

SAMADHI

 

 

Question: "What is samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The state in which the unbroken

experience of existence-consciousness is attained by the still

mind, alone is samadhi. That still mind which is adorned with

the attainment of the limitless Supreme Self, alone is the reality

of God.

 

 

When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is called

nidra (sleep), that is the immersion of the mind in

ignorance. Immersion in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi.

Samadhi is continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or

sleep is also inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In SAHAJ

SAMADHI the communion is continuous.

 

 

The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is

known as Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In this state one is not free from

vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti (liberation). Only

after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation."

 

 

 

Question: "When can one practice Sahaj Samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Even from the beginning. Even

though one practises Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi for years

together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not

attain liberation.

 

Question: "Is samadhi, the eighth stage of raja yoga, the

same as the samadhi you speak of?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In yoga the term samadhi refers to

some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

From here you have samadhan (steadiness) and you remain

calm and composed even while you are active. You realise that you are

moved by the deeper real Self within.  You have no worries, no anxieties,

no cares, for you come to realise that  there is nothing belonging to you.

You know that everything is done by  something with which you are in

conscious union.

 

 

 

Question: "If this sahaj samadhi is the most desirable condition, is there

no need for nirvikalpa samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The nirvikalpa samadhi of raja yoga may have its

use. But in Jnana yoga this sahaj sthiti (natural state) or sahaj nishtha

(abidance in the natural state) itself is the nirvikalpa state. In this

natural state, the mind is free from doubts. It has no need to swing

between alternatives of possibilities and probabilities.It sees no

vikalpas (differences) of any kind. It is sure of the truth because it

feels the presence of the real. Even when it is active, it knows it is

active in the reality, the Self, the

Supreme Being."

 

 

 

Question: "How can one function in the world in such a state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "One who accustoms himself naturally to meditation

and enjoys the bliss of meditation will not lose his samadhi state

whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts may come to him. That is

Sahaja Nirvikalpa. Sahaj Nirvikalpa is Nasa Manas (total destruction of

the mind). Those who are in the laya samadhi state (a trance like state in

which the mind is temporarily in abeyance) will have to bring the mind

back under control from time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it is

in sahaj samadhi, it will never slide down from their high state.

 

 

 

Question:"Is samadhi a blissful or ecstatic state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In samadhi itself there is only perfect peace.

Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of samadhi. In devotion the

ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on

end, and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the Sahaj is won,

these symptoms and the ecstasies cease."

 

 

SIDDHIS (SUPER NATURAL POWERS)

 

 

Question: "On realising samadhi, does not one obtain siddhis (super

natural powers) also?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In order to display siddhis, there must be others

to recognise them. That means, there is no jnana in the one who displays

them. Therefore, siddhis are not worth a thought. Jnana alone is to be

aimed at and gained."

 

 

TURIYA - THE FOURTH STATE

 

 

Question: "Is samadhi the same as Turiya, the fourth state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Samadhi, Turiya and nirvikalpa all

have the same implication, that is, awareness of the Self.

Turiya literally means the fourth  state, the Supreme

Consciousness, as distinct from the other three states  of

consciousness: waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. The

fourth state  is eternal and the other three states come and go in it. In

Turiya there is the awareness that the mind has merged in its source, the

Heart, and is  quiescent there, although some thoughts still impinge on it

and the senses  are still somewhat active. In nirvikalpa, the senses are

inactive and thoughts are totally absent. Hence the experience of Pure

Consciousness in this state is intense and blissful. Turiya is obtainable

in savikalpa samadhi."

 

 

 

 

// unquote //

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

> From the below

> mail which had been posted in 2005 ( picked from my mail box) it

is that

> ramaNa's teaching is not similar to patanajali's ashtAnga yOga

> sAdhana...and more importantly from the below dialogues it is

quite evident

> that " yOga's chitta vrutti nirOdha is NOT recommended to all !!!

>

 

Really? Then how do you account for this statement from the

Maharishi:

//

Maharshi remarked: Patanjali's first sutra is applicable to all

systems of yoga.

//

and if you read carefully the dialogue below, you will find that

Maharishi has described His own teaching as fitting within

Patanjali's first sutra. So what does this prove: Patanjali's first

sutra is applicable to ALL including Vichara :-).

 

So, Bhaskar-ji, whatever you have provided does not conclusively

prove anything. For every dialogue you provide as an example,

someone could provide another dialogue that shows an opposing

viewpoint!

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

 

 

// Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi Talk 191, page 164

Mr. Cohen, a resident disciple, was speaking of yoga method.

Maharshi remarked: Patanjali's first sutra is applicable to all

systems of yoga. The aim is the cessation of mental activities. The

methods differ. So long as there is effort made towards that goal it

is called yoga. The effort is the yoga.

The cessation can be brought about in so many ways.

(1) By examining the mind itself. When the mind is examined, its

activities cease automatically. This is the method of jnana. The

pure mind is the Self.

(2) Looking for the source of the mind is another method. The

source may be said to be God or Self or consciousness.

(3) Concentrating upon one thought make all other thoughts

disappear. Finally that thought also disappears; and

(4) Hatha Yoga.

All methods are one and the same inasmuch as they all tend to the

same goal.

It is necessary to be aware while controlling thoughts. Otherwise

it will lead to sleep. That awareness, the chief factor, is indicated

by the fact of Patanjali emphasising pratyahara, dharana, dhyana,

samadhi even after pranayama. Pranayama makes the mind steady

and suppresses thoughts. Then why develop further? Because

awareness then is the one necessary factor. Such states can be

imitated by taking morphia, chloroform, etc. They do not lead to

Moksha because they lack awareness.

//

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

Pranams to all.

Dear venerable members,

Please permit me to draw your kind attention to the following

points:

The quotations of Bhagavan Ramana that are being quoted in the

various postings which appear here are taken out from the book "

Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi". We have to bear in our minds that

people belonging to various faiths and clinging to innumerable

varities of concepts, uttama, manda and madhyama adhikaris were

approaching Sri Bhagavan to clarify their doubts. His answers met the

need of the questioner. What answers he gave were alright for that

particular person only. They were not the Final Truth. Hence one can

find one answer given to a person being supposedly contrary to the

answer given to another person.But the answer given to the second

person was suitable for him.

Such conflicting ideas are plenty in such books . Unless we

clearly understand the Final standpoint taken by Sri Bhagavan , we

cannot say that what has appeared in one talk is the standpoint Of

Sri Bhagavan. It will be a wrong thing to do so and will land us in

great confusion. Unless one is well grounded in the fundamentals of

Vedanta as established by Sri Sankara in his commentaries, one cannot

but commit grave blunders while quoting the words of Sages who are no

longer physically present. That is the reason Why Sri Sankara insists

upon Sampradaya, Shastra and Acharyopadesha.

I may please be pardoned for sharing my thoughts.

 

With warm and respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy