Gaza is a jail (actually, it is more like a ghetto)

[Kulapavana]

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top>Source: TheIndependent</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD vAlign=top>Published: September 8, 2006 Author: Patrick Cockburn in Gaza</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD vAlign=top></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- Israel is being antisemitic in Gaza -->'Gaza is a jail. Nobody is allowed to leave. We are all starving now'

By Patrick Cockburn in Gaza

Published: 08 September 2006

Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

 

A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

 

Many people are being killed by Israeli incursions that occur every day by land and air. A total of 262 people have been killed and 1,200 wounded, of whom 60 had arms or legs amputated, since 25 June, says Dr Juma al-Saqa, the director of the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City which is fast running out of medicine. Of these, 64 were children and 26 women. This bloody conflict in Gaza has so far received only a fraction of the attention given by the international media to the war in Lebanon.

 

It was on 25 June that the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was taken captive and two other soldiers were killed by Palestinian militants who used a tunnel to get out of the Gaza Strip. In the aftermath of this, writes Gideon Levy in the daily Haaretz, the Israeli army "has been rampaging through Gaza - there's no other word to describe it - killing and demolishing, bombing and shelling, indiscriminately". Gaza has essentially been reoccupied since Israeli troops and tanks come and go at will. In the northern district of Shajhayeh they took over several houses last week and stayed five days. By the time they withdrew, 22 Palestinians had been killed, three houses were destroyed and groves of olive, citrus and almond trees had been bulldozed.

 

Fuad al-Tuba, the 61-year-old farmer who owned a farm here, said: "They even destroyed 22 of my bee-hives and killed four sheep." He pointed sadly to a field, its brown sandy earth churned up by tracks of bulldozers, where the stumps of trees and broken branches with wilting leaves lay in heaps. Near by a yellow car was standing on its nose in the middle of a heap of concrete blocks that had once been a small house.

 

His son Baher al-Tuba described how for five days Israeli soldiers confined him and his relatives to one room in his house where they survived by drinking water from a fish pond. "Snipers took up positions in the windows and shot at anybody who came near," he said. "They killed one of my neighbours called Fathi Abu Gumbuz who was 56 years old and just went out to get water."

 

Sometimes the Israeli army gives a warning before a house is destroyed. The sound that Palestinians most dread is an unknown voice on their cell phone saying they have half an hour to leave their home before it is hit by bombs or missiles. There is no appeal.

 

But it is not the Israeli incursions alone that are destroying Gaza and its people. In the understated prose of a World Bank report published last month, the West Bank and Gaza face "a year of unprecedented economic recession. Real incomes may contract by at least a third in 2006 and poverty to affect close to two thirds of the population." Poverty in this case means a per capita income of under $2 (£1.06) a day.

 

There are signs of desperation everywhere. Crime is increasing. People do anything to feed their families. Israeli troops entered the Gaza industrial zone to search for tunnels and kicked out the Palestinian police. When the Israelis withdrew they were replaced not by the police but by looters. On one day this week there were three donkey carts removing twisted scrap metal from the remains of factories that once employed thousands.

 

"It is the worst year for us since 1948 [when Palestinian refugees first poured into Gaza]," says Dr Maged Abu-Ramadan, a former ophthalmologist who is mayor of Gaza City. "Gaza is a jail. Neither people nor goods are allowed to leave it. People are already starving. They try to live on bread and falafel and a few tomatoes and cucumbers they grow themselves."

 

The few ways that Gazans had of making money have disappeared. Dr Abu-Ramadan says the Israelis "have destroyed 70 per cent of our orange groves in order to create security zones." Carnations and strawberries, two of Gaza's main exports, were thrown away or left to rot. An Israeli air strike destroyed the electric power station so 55 per cent of power was lost. Electricity supply is now becoming almost as intermittent as in Baghdad.

 

The Israeli assault over the past two months struck a society already hit by the withdrawal of EU subsidies after the election of Hamas as the Palestinian government in March. Israel is withholding taxes owed on goods entering Gaza. Under US pressure, Arab banks abroad will not transfer funds to the government.

 

Two thirds of people are unemployed and the remaining third who mostly work for the state are not being paid. Gaza is now by far the poorest region on the Mediterranean. Per capita annual income is $700, compared with $20,000 in Israel. Conditions are much worse than in Lebanon where Hizbollah liberally compensates war victims for loss of their houses. If Gaza did not have enough troubles this week there were protest strikes and marches by unpaid soldiers, police and security men. These were organised by Fatah, the movement of the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, which lost the election to Hamas in January. His supporters marched through the streets waving their Kalashnikovs in the air. "Abu Mazen you are brave," they shouted. "Save us from this disaster." Sour-looking Hamas gunmen kept a low profile during the demonstration but the two sides are not far from fighting it out in the streets.

[Kulapavana]

Gaza is more than a jail. Jail is about justice. But there is no justice there. Ghaza is a ghetto or perhaps even a concentration camp, with Israelis on the watchtowers gunning down whoever they chose. and the world does nothing...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Gaza is more than a jail. Jail is about justice. But there is no justice there. Ghaza is a ghetto or perhaps even a concentration camp, with Israelis on the watchtowers gunning down whoever they chose. and the world does nothing...

Would that be like when the world does nothing about the terrorist programs directed at Israel?

 

Israel isn't keeping the situation where it is - it's the islamists - the militants who have hijacked Gaza into a hopeless 'ghetto' - do you ever ask yourself why the only 'course' that Hamas accepts - is the one that induces an end to the state of Israel?

 

Ask yourself why Hamas Hezbollah the Taliban - Iran's regime Syria's regime and - a host of other Islamists have 'that' as the center of their program - and that is the state of affairs - while the U.N. vainly talks 'peace' but - how can there be peace when the groups of consequence - are so intent in bringing an end to the state of Israel?

 

Of course there's the 'convert or die' aspect of their program - an aspect that they intend to enforce on ALL people - INCLUDING - you.

 

So when you think of Gaza as a ghetto and a concentration camp - PLEASE do not forget the unbelievably adversarial positions of those who are acting as leaders and fighters - for the Palestinians.

 

Without a doubt these are the facts.

 

I wonder - how would you deal with - how would you either counter or resolve - such irregular fighting - as that which is being advanced by the islamist groups?

[Kulapavana]

 

I wonder - how would you deal with - how would you either counter or resolve - such irregular fighting - as that which is being advanced by the islamist groups?

 

you start by giving the Palestinians their land back so they can have their own viable state, and then by acting like a good neighbour to that state, not a local thug warlord.

 

Palis support Hammas because it actually provides them with life needs. if you think Palis will like you or respect your needs after you kill their sons and starve them in a concentration camp you are truly stupid. Israel does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BUT GIVE TROUBLE for these people. Israelis act just like nazis in that respect. what is the preferred solution to the Arab problem? concentration camps and extermination.

[Samia]

 

you start by giving the Palestinians their land back so they can have their own viable state.

 

 

I really feel sorry for you, If you were to open a book for a few minutes and actually learn anything you might not make such easy to destroy arguments.

 

I will do you a favour though here is a nice historical site about the region take a few days to digest it. Then go to a bookstore and pick up a few books as well. It wont be enough, but then at least you wont be so ill equipped to discuss the region with someone who has spent years there

 

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

 

The term "Palestinian" itself had referred to Israeli Jews back in the 1940s, and had been slowly deconstructed and redefined to refer to the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The Middle East Conflict was always a war by Arabs against Jews, not a conflict between Israelis and "Palestinians." The war was repackaged as a conflict between Jews and Palestinians as a public relations gimmick by the Arab fascist regimes. These regimes had never had any interest in "Palestinians," in creating a "Palestinian" state, or in "Palestinian nationalism" before 1967. That is because Palestinian nationalism did not and DOES NOT exist.

 

I have a better solution, Release the hostage, stop strapping bombs to your kids, then pack up and return to Jordan.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

you start by giving the Palestinians their land back so they can have their own viable state, and then by acting like a good neighbour to that state, not a local thug warlord.

 

Palis support Hammas because it actually provides them with life needs. if you think Palis will like you or respect your needs after you kill their sons and starve them in a concentration camp you are truly stupid. Israel does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING BUT GIVE TROUBLE for these people. Israelis act just like nazis in that respect. what is the preferred solution to the Arab problem? concentration camps and extermination.

 

That's not any answer and - you know it!

 

You seem to think that Islamists are only concerned with a palestinian state - but - that isn't the case in the least - they have hijacked that conflict and they intend to use it to further their plans - to destroy the state of Israel and - more.

 

You mention that Hamas 'provides them with life needs' - really - what they are doing is using a bastardized form of socialism - to brainwash the palestinians [socialism is partly how Hitler induced the German people to follow him from atrocity to atrocity]!

 

So Kulapavana - there is a good question here - would the palestinian peoples be so supportive of Hamas - without Hamas' socialism - as a bartering chip - if it were only the irregular fighting - [terror program] being offered them - would they be so accepting of these 'freedom fighters'? I do doubt it!

 

That Kulapavana - is why Hamas is buying the populations of palestine - in the noted manner...the islamists need this conflict to manipulate the muslim world and the palestinians [obviously] have need of leadership - only the Palestinian people get the contaminated crap end of the deal in that arrangement.

 

Of course - there shall be a palestinian state in the future - I humbly ask you - on what basis do you think that formation of the state of palestine - how do you think that is going to induce the islamists to accept real peace and - accept the right for Israel to exist - what to speak of giving up their 'convert or die' pogrom which they wish to induce on as much of the global populations as possible?

[Guest guest]

 

I have a better solution, Release the hostage, stop strapping bombs to your kids, then pack up and return to Jordan.

 

 

LOL! you are such a riot! That is your "solution"? Wake up and smell the reality... you always want something for NOTHING. That egotistical mentality is precisely the root cause of this conflict.

[Kulapavana]

 

That's not any answer and - you know it!

 

No, that IS the answer, but you and your people are unwilling to pay the price for peace.

 

Anyway, I'm not interested in a big debate. The subject does not interest me that much and I have little time these days for such topics.

 

I pray for peace for all people of good will. Ultimately however:

 

we all get what we deserve

 

and neither the Israelis, nor the Palestinians, seem to deserve the peace these days.

[theist]

 

Gaza is more than a jail. Jail is about justice. But there is no justice there. Ghaza is a ghetto or perhaps even a concentration camp, with Israelis on the watchtowers gunning down whoever they chose. and the world does nothing...

 

Sorry Kulapavanna, but your obvious hatred of Jews and the state of Israel is really showing big time.

[theist]

 

Anyway, I'm not interested in a big debate. The subject does not interest me that much and I have little time these days for such topics.

 

"Not interested"?!?! Just look at 3 of the top five threads on this forum. They tell a different story.

[Samia]

 

"Not interested"?!?! Just look at 3 of the top five threads on this forum. They tell a different story.

 

 

No, No, No you misread. He is not interested in a debate. See the sites he frequents give him things like this to post but he can not support his claims at all. As you notice once he is proven wrong he starts calling people that have the FACTS Jews and ADL spies.

[Samia]

 

LOL! you are such a riot! That is your "solution"? Wake up and smell the reality... you always want something for NOTHING. That egotistical mentality is precisely the root cause of this conflict.

 

Actually if you knew the slightest touch of history you would know the root of all this. Maybe when you grow up and get an education you might have a clearer picture. Did you even browse the link I provided for beginner level information or were the words too big for you ?

[Guest guest]

 

Did you even browse the link I provided for beginner level information or were the words too big for you ?

 

 

<strong>Good-bye Main Stream Media, Hello alternative</strong>

 

By Mark Meza

 

Many mainstream television programs today claim to offer the viewer an impartial approach on any given issue, this just isn’t true, there is no longer any such thing as an unbiased television program in the MSM. For all intents and purposes every network is subservient to its owners and management, which is largely pro-Zionist in our contemporary world. Many people like to point out that the networks are “owned,” by stockholders and “managed,” by a “Board of Directors,” and that the only bias they have is one directed at profit. When I hear this I feel it necessary to point out that Enron was also a publicly traded corporation and it too had a Board of Directors. Despite this it only took a few individuals at the very top to drive the corporation into the ground. In other words Enron stockholders had no say whatsoever in the direction Enron was taking, if they had, the corporation wouldn’t have gone bankrupt, it’s really a matter of economics 101, stockholders aren’t interested in pursuing policies that will reduce their holdings by more than a thousand percent, but nonetheless, that’s exactly what happened at Enron. The television networks are also in theory “owned,” by stockholders, but the networks are managed by hardcore Zionists whose sole agenda is as un-American and downright treasonous as anything any enemy of this country could ever perpetrate on the people of this nation.

 

It isn’t much of a secret any longer – the MSM is heavily biased towards the state of Israel, just consider this last travesty of justice associated with the media’s coverage of the carpet bombing of Lebanon, more than a thousand dead Lebanese, mostly women and children, a million left homeless, but all we hear about in the United States is the suffering of a few Israelis comfortably sitting in their air conditioned basements and moaning about the inaccurate Katusha rockets, while Israel dumps thousands of cluster bombs with pinpoint accuracy on the heads of defenseless women and children. No, there is no longer any doubt, the mainstream media is firmly in the hands of Zionists and their lackeys.

 

Jeffrey Blankfort, an anti-Zionist Jewish American composed a “partial list,” of ethnic Jews here in the United States and abroad with media holdings and/or involved in the management of the corporate media – all could be considered pro-Zionist in orientation in that they actively conspire to mitigate by way of deceptive propaganda and/or outright suppression, the criminal actions of the state of Israel. Blankfort lists the following individuals; carefully consider what it really means for America and the world. AOL Time Warner’s CEO is Gerald Levin [AOL is the largest media conglomerate with holdings that include HBO, TNT, TBS, CNN, TCM, Warner Brothers, Time Inc], Roger Igor is CEO of Walt Disney company [Walt Disney is the second largest media conglomerate with holdings that include ABC, ESPN, A&E, Lifetime, Miramax Films, Caravan Pictures, Touchstone Pictures], Sumner Redstone [born Murray Rothstein] is the CEO of Viacom, the world’s third largest media conglomerate with holdings that include CBS, Paramount, MTV, Nickelodeon, Showtime, Country Music Television, Nashville Network Cable, Infinity Broadcasting (radio), Pocket Books, Free Press, Schribner, Simon & Schuster], Edgar Bronfman Sr. and Edgar Bronfman Jr., CEO’s of Vivendi Universal, the world’s fourth largest media conglomerate with holdings that include Universal Studios, USA Networks, Houghton Mifflin Publishers and Rupurt Murdoch at the helm of Fox which is the fifth largest media conglomerate in the world. Blankfort believes Murdoch to be ethnically Jewish too, citing the fact that his mother Elisabeth Joy Greene was a Jewish Australian that married into the Murdoch name]. As mentioned above, this is only a partial list, for those interested in further information on this subject, see here or here.

 

There is one exception though, a program you may or may not have heard about, Current Issues, hosted by Dr. Hesham Tillawi. Current Issues is an Internet television program, it is broadcast live every Thursday, from 8-10 PM [CST]. The Internet is the only way such a program could be broadcast today, as it, the Internet, is truly the last bastion of Freedom of Speech, the networks wouldn’t even consider, not for a moment, allowing the American public to view such a program as Current Issues, it’s far too accurate, far too honest, and Dr. Tillawi interviews all the people the mainstream media would rather you never hear about. Tillawi takes on issues the MSM won’t touch, he dares to present the Palestinian side of the Palestinian/Israeli question and he dares to question the veracity of the mainstream media itself.

 

The networks would have you believe that only they can provide the greatest diversity of opinion, only they can provide all sides to any given issue, that only they have access to the best minds, ideas, problems and associated solutions, but it’s Dr. Tillawi that actually delivers – he has interviewed dozens of people that one might consider right wing, people like Dr. David Duke, Willis Carto, Idaho attorney, Edgar Steele, former Reagan Treasury official, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, journalist Michael Collins Piper, Colonel Bo Gritz, author Joseph Bellinger, psychology professor Kevin MacDonald, Congressman Paul Findley, friends of Ernst Zundel, Paul Fromm, Michael Hoffman, Mark Weber, Dr. Fredrick Toben, and Bradley Smith. Tillawi has interviewed well-known personalities on the far left as well, people like Professor Noam Chomsky, Professor Norman Finkelstein, Rabbi Israel Dovid Weiss, Israel Shamir, Barry Chamish, ad professor James Petras. Current Issues also delivers when it comes to providing an Arabic and Islamic perspective, something the MSM has never done, nor will it ever do. While the MSM brings on every Israeli analyst they can get their hands on to provide for the viewer a so-called “impartial” opinion, or a so called “fair and balanced view, it’s Dr. Tillawi that actually interviews real live Arabs, that can speak English and everything [can you imagine?] – people like the Palestinian Ambassador, Afif Safieh, DR. Mohamed Khodr, former United States Senator James Abourezk, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, and Pakistani Muslim, Dr. Mohammed Daud Miraki, and many, many others.

 

Dr. Tillawi also interviews people that cannot so easily be categorized, but nonetheless people the media still don’t want you to know about, people like Lyndon LaRouche, journalist Wayne Madsen, Texe Marrs, Mark Glenn, Father Louie Arceneaux, Wendy Campbell and Alison Weir. In short, Current Issues delivers where the MSM cannot, it actually provides a diversity of opinion, it actually provides a “fair and balanced,” approach, the MSM simply cannot afford to do this, because its ownership cannot afford for Americans to come to understand that their Zionist opinion isn’t the only opinion out there among Americans.

 

While the Zionist media seeks to suppress uncomfortable facts, like the indisputable fact that Israel intentionally attacked an American Intelligence ship, the USS Liberty, in 1967 killing more than fifty sailors, and then compelling the United States government to cover that fact up, Tillawi seeks to bring it to the attention of Americans. Where the MSM censors any thing to do with the infamous Lavon Affair, where Israeli’s attempted to bomb American assets in Egypt in the 1950s and frame the Egyptians for the attack, Tillawi endeavors to bring it to the attention of the viewer. Where the establishment media struggles to keep all [and there is a great deal] of the damning evidence implicating the United States government and the Mossad in the attacks of September 11, 2001, Tillawi does his best to interview guests that have worked with scientific teams that have concluded that there is no other explanation – it was impossible that both world trade center towers collapsed as a result of being hit by airplanes.

 

Nary a single network has mentioned an Israeli by the name of Asher Karni that was arrested at Denver International airport in January of 2004 for having sold Pakistan nuclear weapon detonators known as “spark gap igniters,” but Dr. Tillawi has! Not one network has told you about a New York Orthodox Jew named Yehuda Abraham, who was arrested for having sold shoulder fired surface to air missiles to FBI agents posing as Al Qaeda operatives, with the understanding that they were to be used against non-Jewish Americans, but Current Issues was there with the story. Recently the mainstream media has kept the stories of Ariel Weinmann and Adam Pearlman out of the news. Weinmann was a Navy Petty Officer arrested approximately four months ago for passing extremely sensitive national security information relating to nuclear submarines to the Israelis – ever heard of him? Adam Pearlman is an Al Qaeda terrorist by the name of “Azzam the American.” It isn’t that the media is keeping Azzam out of the news, hardly, he made the front page, and prime time on every network, but not a single network has mentioned the fact that he’s in reality a Californian Jew named Adam Pearlman, whose grandfather was a sitting Board Member on the Anti-Defamation League. Current Issues has exposed both Weinmann and Pearlman to the light of day. In short, Current Issues has covered all the news that’s fit to present and the MSM has done nothing but continue to spin its tangled web of deceit.

 

A few years ago one might have said that Dr. Hesham Tillawi and Current Issues were ahead of their time; that nobody was going to accept the alternative media as a replacement for the mainstream – well the mainstream media is losing its readers and viewers in droves, and where do you think they are heading? They are headed to the alternative media, because they have finally concluded that the MSM is nothing more than a propaganda outlet for the powers that be. Dr. Tillawi will continue to interview the most interesting and informed of people, and Bill O’Reilly will continue to spin you in circles at the “No Spin Zone,” just as he did with his latest tripe published on Fox News entitled “How the Bush haters are hurting America.” Could there possibly be a more obviously biased title for a piece of propaganda? Could there?

[Samia]

 

Good-bye Main Stream Media, Hello alternative

 

 

Wow that read just like Who Rules America put out by the National Alliance. Funny that you post a propaganda piece in response to facts. What is even more hilarious is that the propaganda piece is about propaganda.

[Kulapavana]

 

Sorry Kulapavanna, but your obvious hatred of Jews and the state of Israel is really showing big time.

 

I like them just as much as I like Palestinians and judge each person by their actual qualities, unless they are part of a mob.

 

Obviously the anti-Palestinian slant of BDM and his sidekick Sarnia does not bother you. Did you get on their case even once for spreading anti-muslim propaganda? That is the ONLY reason they are here. How often do they post on other topics? IMO they are just a part of the propaganda machine. I post articles to balance their propaganda and to make a case against the war.

 

I respect you because I know who you are. We may disagree on politics but that is hardly relevant to me. yet I strongly dislike war and warmongers who never go to wars themselves ond only expend other people's lives and money. This whole world is screwed up because of them.

[Samia]

 

I like them just as much as I like Palestinians and judge each person by their actual qualities, unless they are part of a mob.

 

Obviously the anti-Palestinian slant of BDM and his sidekick Sarnia does not bother you. Did you get on their case even once for spreading anti-muslim propaganda? That is the ONLY reason they are here. How often do they post on other topics? IMO they are just a part of the propaganda machine. I post articles to balance their propaganda and to make a case against the war.

 

I respect you because I know who you are. We may disagree on politics but that is hardly relevant to me. yet I strongly dislike war and warmongers who never go to wars themselves ond only expend other people's lives and money. This whole world is screwed up because of them.

 

Wow you really are bent out of shape, I have yet to see you support any of your opinion pieces with one single fact from any academic source. I post fact after fact and you have yet to even come close to any sort of response. How can I be anti-Muslim when I lived in Dubai for 5 years with a Muslim family, it sure would be a shock to them. Have you read and studied the Koran ? Have you ever even left whatever state you live in for a view at the real world ?

 

Sure I dont have many posts here as I originally came here following links for the band Shelter. I read alot here and follow links to other good sites. I was compelled to post because of all the Israel hate that I saw here. I felt I could point out facts as opposed to the biased articles posted here, since I spent many years living in the Middle East and have real life experience.

 

Were there articles here as false as the ones about Israel directed to Muslims I would address those as well. In you shallow world view however you view support of Israel as anti-Muslim ( again that would shock the many Muslims that are living peacefully and happily in Israel ) so there really is no hope for you.

 

I would suggest finishing school, getting out into the world and maturing a bit before attempting to discuss world matters with the big boys.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Obviously the anti-Palestinian slant of BDM and his sidekick Sarnia does not bother you. Did you get on their case even once for spreading anti-muslim propaganda? That is the ONLY reason they are here. How often do they post on other topics? IMO they are just a part of the propaganda machine.

 

You're saying it again - "the anti-Palestinian slant of BDM...spreading anti-muslim propaganda" - so - here you are again - making claims without any comments from me - to evidence that claim. You do this often and each time you fail to post your proofs - funny huh...

 

You don't post in support of muslims when you say the many things you do:

 

"...as to the Israelis and all the Jews alligned with them: this is the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...

now they are almost ready for their new target: Iran... Lord help us when that war begins...

as to the islamic terrorism: it is simply a reaction to the above mentioned action... do you understand the law of karma, BDM?

and finally: the Torah, Talmud and it's byproducts... they form the backbone of this greedy sectarianism, and justify the materialistic desire to subjugate others by force in the name of our own god... "

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/fo...cing-us-2.html

 

Those are your words. This is a clear support for the Islamists [not muslims] you've evidenced in your posting on - 05/02/2006:

 

as to the Israelis and all the Jews alligned with them: this is the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...the islamic terrorism: it is simply a reaction to the above mentioned action

 

Kulapavana that isn't support for Islamists - the same Islamists that wish to impose their convert or die program in places - like India?

 

You post anti-israel postings and dare i say it - even anti-hebrew postings but - I in contrast post many things in support of Palestinians and that - God is One 'Vishnu is Allah is Yahweh' - at one time - i even expressed that i felt some of these islamist groups were maybe freedom fighters - all-be-it irregular fighters - but - how can i or anyone ignore what they say and do?

 

You hide that within all your condemnations of my postings - over the course - I've presented a fair picture of all the groups of consequence - where in contrast - you are seen taking any and all opportunities - to rail against the Israelis or the fictional 'international jew cartel' and even the hebrew faith itself. You never point out parts of Islamic tradition and scripture that are 'off' in some manner - why not?

 

For a recent example - everything stated with in the letter written by the Iranian president [Read it here as you posted there too Iran seeks contact with 'Great Satan'] - to President Bush should capture your attentive concern - right within that letter - he made threats to you - in expressing his plans in the future of their intended global islamic revoloution - he clearly threatens everyone who is not already one of them.

 

Outside of Iran's leader's great delusions in terms of inducing them into readiness to radical revolution and war with the west - Iran has to make some real efforts to get along in the region and - with the world in general and - her president has to grow up and reconsider his responsibility [it must already be too late for him?] to the life and liberty of his people - not that his responsibility is to do what they are more than hinting at - attacking others.

 

Are there terrorists in Iran - yes - without a doubt and - if the president of Iran doesn't come to understand that through his own culitvation of terror and terorists - the resultant myriad of extremists - shall one day present a group [much more extremist than him] that shall present 'the end' of his regime.

 

That is a fault point about unstable political ideologies - at some point they are a source of great distress to those who've committed so much of themselves to that political cause. With the addition of 'radicalized' religious interpretaions it becomes evermore worse in it's reactive nature.

 

Presently - as it is - Islamic theocracy may sound like a good idea to some people but - in the end it isn't and - anyone with any amount of understanding can see that.

 

When we see the nations where there are such governances - there are also terrible repressions of the people and - there are fatal repressions of those who do not agree with that form of governance - so in that respect alone - it isn't a good form of government to deal with.

 

In those far-away places where the efforts of transplanting democracy is going on – an alternative door is being opened – however - there is too the serious danger that theocratic types may take the vote [like Hamas] and rule as though it were a tyranny - if even for four year stints.

 

It is sad but - these islamist groups shall never repect the vedic [or any other] tradition - not enough to not eventually attack - India already has a history of suffering these attacks.

 

Of course - this isn't Islam doing this - it's radicalized Islamists - there is quite a difference - when shall you see that? What prevents you from seeing it?

 

It may be one thing if others don't respect your faith and yet - quite another - if they present you with a program of "convert or die" - no respect for you - because of your faith and - later - no life either.

 

Thus the demons, being fond of disastrous activities, took Hiranyakasipu’s instructions on their heads with great respect and offered him obeisances. According to his directions, they engaged in envious activities directed against all living beings. [sB 7.2.13]

 

This is what these Islamic revolutionary types are like - these present day terrorists - being fond of disastrous activities - they'll take an islamic revolutionary's leader's instructions on their heads with great respect and according to their directions - they'll engage in envious activities directed against all living beings.

 

Clearly the events of 9/11 were 'envious activities directed against all living beings' - the plan was sinister and maledicted. These demons were pachydermal and acted heinously in killing so many people and hoping to kill more - to destabilize the global economy and - why?

 

You have to admit that your words in saying that - 'the islamic terrorism: it is simply a reaction to... the Israelis and all the Jews alligned with them' - is only so much efforts to try to rationalize an invalid situation for these terrorists and terrorism in general - what to speak being incredibly unfair to the 'target' group.

 

You say that I do not comment on other threads but - that isn't true either and you know it - i've been a member here since early November 2001 and - you - only since September 2003. Or is Kulapavana your most recent 'handle'?

 

When you write "...spreading anti-muslim propaganda...That is the ONLY reason they are here...they are just a part of the propaganda machine" - that is so funny - because - not all propaganda is bad - it depends of the facts evidenced in that propaganda.

 

You are manifestly uderpinning the islamist's cause [not muslims] - in ways that are alarming to sincere vaishnavas [and others] and - on that basis - you present to the general reading public - especially those who are not conversant with our tradition - an unfair and - inaccurate appearance of support for the islamist's activitites and their general revolutionary program.

 

How can I [or others] not reply in defense of the truth in this connection?

 

I intend you no disrespect - but you need to see these facts...

 

-

 

Here is a post - I've long ago posted - when I was more 'liberal':

 

[i first posted this all over the web more than two years ago]

 

[This was emailed to world leaders as well]

 

Alas it's been long "published" -- and as suspected it falls more than somewhat short - the "Road Map" is seemingly unrealistic - FIRST; it's 'time-lines' aren't 'timely' enough - SECOND: there's the document's overt focus on the Palestinian's latest 'Uprising' - it thus places far too many of the responsibilities on the Palestinians - for the provocation, the violence, and - its end - before steps to resolution of the causative issues themselves - [the Road Map Plan avoids a delving 'deeper' into the underlying issues themselves!].

---- Thus the 'semi international' "Road MapPlan" does NOT outline in any detail its purposed [resolution] methods - nor even present 'suggestions' on how the parties are to going to deal with these issues - [really it's a plan - without a plan!] - all we are told is that 'later' in a projected "phase three" [in 2005] there will be convened - an "International Conference", to decide the issue of Jerusalem and 'final borders' for both States [just see the pointlessness of a Plan which speaks of 'final borders' which we already know are going to have to be [as far as possible] a non fragmented 50/50 cut - and that's it, that's all!?].

---- The "Road Map" Plan reads: "...a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide...".

---- This Road Map is sounding like it's navigating into the general direction of a FAILED [in theory and practicality] U.N. Resolution - (#181) [drafted in 1947] - certainly not withstanding everyone's best intentions - an 'International Jerusalem' city-state will not be a workable 'Regional' entity!

---- A logical and fair solution - as outlined within our Peace Plan [in this string] suggests looking at these issues - within a timely manner - with a realistic regard to the Rights of ALL the peoples in THAT Region - i.e.: the Middle East Region - specifically, Rights of the the Middle East populations - to a 'peace and security' - certainly has precedent over ANY - "religious interests" [centered on the region] of 'others' residing "WORLDWIDE"! It seems a simple logical point?

---- Further the most important religious "interest" of - "...Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide..." - should be REAL PEACE for those living in the Region - otherwise 'what' is the meaning to their ideas of a far-away 'Holy Land'?

---- When looking into the past and future of these issues - we can see 'continuous adjustments' have been made by these parties [Palestine and Israel] to cope with each other - thus having at least 'that' as a positive commonality - here is a simple arrangement for them to consider serving as a basis for a fair concession:

---- "...part of the 'Justice' here naturally demands that Jerusalem is going to have be [again] a fully Israeli City...Palestine must receive [without debt] as *'instantly*' as possible - a comprehensive new "State of the Art" Capital City...". [*a "right of return" concession may be bridged through this Plan!*]

---- So within 'that' simple 'concession' - we see the 'direction' to a proper 'resolution' on this Jerusalem issue - of course our Peace Plan [which was sent to various World Leaders] clearly outlines 'how' this HISTORIC "move" should be undertaken - we see no point in suggesting a Plan without practical methods to meet its end!

 

One location posted here:

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/hinduism/25972-day-will-i-make-jerusalem-burdensome-stone-all-peoples.html

 

So that says it all?

[Kulapavana]

 

Those are your words. This is a clear support for the Islamists [not muslims] you've evidenced in your posting on - 05/02/2006:

 

as to the Israelis and all the Jews alligned with them: this is the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...the islamic terrorism: it is simply a reaction to the above mentioned action

 

Kulapavana that isn't support for Islamists - the same Islamists that wish to impose their convert or die program in places - like India?

 

how is that supporting Islamists?

 

It is a REJECTION of BOTH sides barbaric policies and demonic actions. That is the point I have been making all along, since before this stupid war in Iraq.

 

If Israel did not have their pitbull USA 100% behind them, they would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and other Arab nations. They were behind the war with Iraq and now they are instigating the US war with Iran. In my book, that is just a recent example of:

 

the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

how is that supporting Islamists?

 

It is a REJECTION of BOTH sides barbaric policies and demonic actions. That is the point I have been making all along, since before this stupid war in Iraq.

 

If Israel did not have their pitbull USA 100% behind them, they would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and other Arab nations. They were behind the war with Iraq and now they are instigating the US war with Iran. In my book, that is just a recent example of:

 

the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...

 

Well as if i have to [again] say this - Islamic terrorism is not caused by anything but their desire to bring on their revolution - you seem to be quite hopeless - i know what you've posted and what that means and - so does most everyone else. You fail to change the valid perceptions of your 'off' position.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

how is that supporting Islamists?

 

It is a REJECTION of BOTH sides barbaric policies and demonic actions. That is the point I have been making all along, since before this stupid war in Iraq.

 

If Israel did not have their pitbull USA 100% behind them, they would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and other Arab nations. They were behind the war with Iraq and now they are instigating the US war with Iran. In my book, that is just a recent example of:

 

the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...

That pasted comment of yours doesn't at all read like - "a REJECTION of BOTH sides barbaric policies and demonic actions" - it reads like this - "the Israelis and all the Jews alligned with them: this is the hand that has been stirring Middle Eastern pot for decades, hoping for a nice, mostly free, meal...the islamic terrorism: it is simply a reaction to the above mentioned action" - that is saying that the Israelis and so many other jews are the cause of so much trouble and that were it not for them there would not be these groups reining terror on the world - again THAT is in total denial about the islamic revolution.

 

You write:

 

"If Israel did not have their pitbull USA 100% behind them, they would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and other Arab nations."

 

Again - that is in total denial of the fact that the many islamist groups do not want peace [with Israel or the rest of the non-islamist world] - they have never wanted peace and are as such - not likely to ever want peace.

 

How can Israel make peace with people that hate them so deeply - the hate isn't just frustration it's racial and religious hate stained with radical politics.

 

You cannot deny that there has to be a major shift in the way that the islamists view others - especially Israelis and jews.

 

The U.S. is doing the right thing in being 100% behind them - with the noted circumstances as they are.

 

There shall not be peace without an about-face change within the islamists and - you are not helping any such change - by saying that Islamist terrorism is in response to Israel and in that comment skirt the issue of their islamic revolution.

 

You were the one to post the Iranian president's letter to President Bush on that other noted thread - did you read that letter? How can you miss all the Islamic revolution stuff - that has NOTHING MORE to do with Israel - than it does you.

 

This is their program. They invented it on their own. It is not some collective karma - it is a bunch of duskritum acting like sub-demons [if that were possible] - killing and terrorizing.

 

In reading the letter from the president of Iran - did you get any sense for what are their plans? Who is supposed to deal with that and how?

 

What is the procedure - to counter the Islamic revolution?

[Danielle Field]

Just a quickie! I was reading this today and couldn't resist:

 

Quote, Dr Shlomo Shmelzman, a survivor of the Holocaust, to the press in Israel, announcing his courageous hunger strike at the height of the bombing of West Beirut Lebanon in the 1982 conflict.

 

"In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labour camps, to Buchenwald. Today, as a citizen of Israel, I cannot accept the systematic destruction of cities, towns and refugee camps. I cannot accept the technocratic cruelty of the bombing, destroying and killing of human beings.

 

I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear "dirty Arabs" and I remember "dirty Jews". I hear about "closed areas" and I remember ghettos and camps. I hear "two-legged beasts" and I remember "Untermenschen" (subhumans). I hear about tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission, and I remember suffereing, destruction, death, blood and murder . . . Too many things in Israel remind me of too many things from my childhood" (Noam Chomsky "The fateful Triangle").

 

BDM and Samia your positions are too offensive to be considered Vaishnava. They applaud killing, justified in the name of God. Yes there is a time and a place for such killing but the deaths should fall on the heads of the warrior class and not innocent civilians. Shame on you! Shame, shame, shame. You are the same group so fooled by your pride and predjudice that spurred on the Nazi Holocaust, believing all that the ruling class said of the worthlessness of innocent Jewish lives and their plot to take over the world (sound familiar to the garbage you've been swallowing about all Islamic resistance revolving around global domination?). I cannot show any serious interest in this website any longer. However, this isn't really a forum for serious discussion is it? I mean everytime someone starts a serious discussion it quickly descends into a cacophony of tit for tat nonesense and any serious debating mind would loose any credibility just honouring such responses.

 

Kulpavana you have my deepest sympathies. I feel exactly the same. YOu are interested in a discussion obviously, but when you want to discuss issues as serious as this do you turn to the baying mob or do you speak with rationed individuals who respect their service to the truth and do not think that the truth is their to service them and their petty point scoring? Look for those groups who recognise the validity of your position. You will lurch when I tell you this but mostly they are socialists. Most other groups are duped by the spell that Maya has cast through the instigation of the capitalist system. Guest, great to hear your thoughts on this matter.

 

Those of you who rationalise the truth try your best to remove these deviants from the discussion. They degrade it with their ignorance! It is a Vaishnavas duty to rid the world of the pestilence of these offences and there are much more effective ways of doing it that wasting time exchanging verbiage with offenders. Speak to people who have ears that will listen, hearts that will hear. Don't throw flowers at hearts of stone.

 

However, there is some sport to be had in disturbing fools. Samia, BDM you are fools! Prabhupada would have identified you as such. You have been so blinded to the truth by a tiny speck of knowledge that you have no interest to develop in the context of the bigger picture in world current affairs. "This is what I know so it must be right! Kaw Kaw! Kaw Kaw!" Start taking your service a bit more seriously and yourselves a little less seriously and then your attitudes will improve. You are rascals! Prabhupada warned that such blood thirsty people would dress as Vaishnavas yet fail to change the rot that festers in their hearts!

[Kulapavana]

 

What is the procedure - to counter the Islamic revolution?

 

it was YOU and people like you who sparked that revolution, with your injustice an manipulation of the Arab people. US was fully behind Binladen and his mujahedins at one time (and who knows, maybe today he is still working for the CIA's black operations). Did you forget who intalled the shah in Iran to replace a legitimate government? Did you forget the Jewish terrorism that led to the formation of Israel?

 

if US, other countries and Israel would spend 20% of it's military and anti-terrorism budget on helping the poor all over the world and started treating them with justice, dignity and respect - terrorism would practically dissappear.

 

if Israel settled peacably and amicably with the Palestinians - terrorism would practically dissappear.

 

Islamic revolution is the monster created to fight the other monster. This is how Krsna's creation works: One animal controls the other animal so that there is some balance.

 

STOP ACTING LIKE AN ANIMAL AND THE OTHER ANIMAL WILL GO AWAY.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

[...]

 

BDM and Samia your positions are too offensive to be considered Vaishnava. They applaud killing, justified in the name of God. [...]

 

Kulpavana you have my deepest sympathies. I feel exactly the same. YOu are interested in a discussion obviously, but when you want to discuss issues as serious as this do you turn to the baying mob or do you speak with rationed individuals who respect their service to the truth and do not think that the truth is their to service them and their petty point scoring? Look for those groups who recognise the validity of your position. You will lurch when I tell you this but mostly they are socialists. Most other groups are duped by the spell that Maya has cast through the instigation of the capitalist system. Guest, great to hear your thoughts on this matter.

 

Those of you who rationalise the truth try your best to remove these deviants from the discussion. They degrade it with their ignorance! It is a Vaishnavas duty to rid the world of the pestilence of these offences and there are much more effective ways of doing it that wasting time exchanging verbiage with offenders. Speak to people who have ears that will listen, hearts that will hear. Don't throw flowers at hearts of stone.

 

However, there is some sport to be had in disturbing fools. Samia, BDM you are fools! Prabhupada would have identified you as such. You have been so blinded to the truth by a tiny speck of knowledge that you have no interest to develop in the context of the bigger picture in world current affairs. "This is what I know so it must be right! Kaw Kaw! Kaw Kaw!" Start taking your service a bit more seriously and yourselves a little less seriously and then your attitudes will improve. You are rascals! Prabhupada warned that such blood thirsty people would dress as Vaishnavas yet fail to change the rot that festers in their hearts!

Oh whatever!

 

Both of you praise the islamic revolution and both of you are in denial about the cause and intent of that islamic revolution - both of you make excuses for these terrorists - it is simple - you are supporting that which desires to slit our throats.

 

You said that I twist your words but - your words are quite clear and so are those of kulapavana - i know it must not be easy to do this double-speak support and false-condemnations of the islamist groups - in the same breath...

 

"It is a Vaishnavas duty to rid the world of the pestilence of these offences and there are much more effective ways of doing it that wasting time exchanging verbiage with offenders" - you only say that because I've taken apart your thin position too easily and that makes you upset - oh well - dismiss it all and think that your communist propaganda shall save everything - that is the joke here - that you think i even think you're a hare krishna - i don't think you are - i think if you were we would here more shastra from you in support of your ideas.

 

Anyway your posting is so much hot air and as usual you fail to address the key issues - of which the center is that you and kulapavana pass off islamist terror as a reaction to israeli injustices and despite constant attempts to discuss the islamic revolution - you both refuse.

 

You write 'their petty point scoring' - it ain't about scores it's about facts.

 

Danny - calling us down like this doesn't change these facts.

 

I'm certain that Prabhupada would NEVER side with you guys on these issues NEVER - just give me some quotes to support that he would [i know you don't give quotes from him].

 

"Those of you who rationalise the truth try your best to remove these deviants from the discussion. They degrade it with their ignorance!"

 

Yes the heroic 'freedom fighters' you admire - the islamists - they have a program to deal with people like us - don't they...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

if Israel settled peacably and amicably with the Palestinians - terrorism would practically dissappear.

 

Islamic revolution is the monster created to fight the other monster.

"practically" - a huge variable in that one - huh!

 

The islamic revolution isn't karmic reaction nor is it providential creation of a monster to destroy another monster - this is more ill rationalization on your part here.

 

Islamic terrorism is not caused by anything but their desire to bring on their revolution - it is an attempt by a bunch of DEMONS to impose their bent ideas - at gun point and under a hail of bombs if needed - you just don't get it [why?] and going over it again and again is a waste of time...

 

Which of your mosters wish to kill you - the jews or the islamists - there is a hare krishna temple in israel and is there NOT one in Iran nor any other islamist nation - so why are you defending them when if they had the chance they would come to you and give you two options "convert or die"...

[Danielle Field]

ARf Arf Arf!! Barking like a dog again BDM. Can't make out a word you're saying, all I hear is uncontrolled emotions and thinly veiled conceit. You're a bore. You offer nothing of validity to the argument, you just stand behind the bullies and go "Yeah, I'm with them, and they've got the biggest weapons so that's cool by me!" How was Israel created BDM, go on, enlighten me, what's your version of events? Jeeze, you're so funny! Nrsinghadev thinks you're a hoot, every time he peeps down from that little insert. Its a good job Krishna's got a good sense of humour. And who said you get to call me Danny? I wasted far too much time being polite with you and it got me nowhere except deflated. Thats when I realised you needed chastising. You don't listen, all you want to do is tell. You ruin every discussion you get involved in and you don't even notice you are doing it. I appreciate that Kulapavana will not feel comfortable siding with me on this but I think its up to someone to reel your ugly neck in because every discussion you touch dissolves into muck and the only reason you don't notice is because that is where you are at. I'm only going away when I want to this time and not just because of your barking you mad dog!