Swamy Dayananda Saraswati on vEdAnta sAra text

[Guest guest]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Last year, when the discussion on PY's ashtAnga yOga was at its peak, I had

forwarded below mail received from Sri Krishna GhadiyAram prabhuji of

advaita-L list...Since members here quoting this vEdAnta text as pramANa,

I would like to share the same once again...I admit that I've not studied

this text of vEdAnta sAra completely but have been told by Sri Srinivas

Murthy prabhuji that in this text there is a mention about *anEka sAkshi-s*

in multiple jIvAtmans...how to reconcile this multiple sAkshi-s in

different jIvAtman-s with shvEtAshvatara shruti maNtra yEko dEvaH

sarvabhutEshu gUdAH....sAkshi chEtaH kEvalO nirguNascha?? can followers of

vEdAnta sAra text clarify this ??

 

 

// quote //

 

Here is what Svami Dayananda has to say about

references to aShtanga yOga steps mentioned in vEdAnta

sAra text:

 

*****

If after shravana, manana, nididhyasana fruits of

insight of being Brahman is not present, some

reorientation may be necessary.

 

For shravana or nididhyasana some disciplined life is

required. So samadhi sadhana or any other discipline

such as puja etc. can be a updalakshana. Even

learning classical music may be good for you. We will

use any every thing available. But, it has nothing to

do with Vedanta. If primary end is clear, then

everything else necessary, you can do. Vedanta has

used developments of sAmkhya, mImamsa also.

 

About meditation: Meditation is useless for atma

jnanam. Known Atma does nto require meditation and if

Atma is not known, there is nothing to meditate. Atma

is an object of shravanam.

 

Atma is nirvikalpaH. It is different from nirvikalpa

samadhi. nirvikalpa samadhi is not turIya. turIya is

your understanding of svarUpa of Atma.

 

shravanam is 'angi' and manana, nididhyasana are

'anga'.

 

With the understanding of Vedanta, you can help

yourself with any part, not necessarily all parts, of

aShtanta yOga.

 

For Vedanta samadhi is samAhita buddhi. samadhi should

be interpreted as per sampradaya only. As per sAmkhya

and yOga, atmas are many, and pradhana is separate

from chaitanya. It is dual. It is not acceptable to

Vedanta. Sankara discussed these topics and refuted

their stand.

 

In the vEdAnta sAra book the author has converted the

terminology into Vedanta. The savikalpa samadhi and

nirvikalpa samadhi are nididhyasana only.

 

nirvikalpa samadhi is 'angi' and the eight steps

(eigth being savikalpa samadhi) are 'anga'.

*****

 

Svami Dayananda also has explained the above points

with reference to the following:

 

-----------

para 109 : tatra savikalpakO nAma jnAtru-jnAnAdi

vikalpa laya anapEkshayA advitIya vastuni ...

 

para 197 : nirvikalpakastu jnAtru-jnAnAdi vikalpa laya

apEkshayA advitIya vastuni ....

 

refer to 'advitIya vastu' indefining samAdhi, which is

not in sync with yOga definition, so these terms have

been converted to convey the Vedanta philosophy.

 

similarly, para 206:

 

advitIya vastuni sntarindriya dhAraNam dhAraNa ..

refers to advitIya vastu even for dhAraNa

-----------

 

Hope this clarifies.

 

Om Namo Narayanaya !!

 

Srikrishna

 

 

// unquote //

 

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Pranams Bhaskar-ji and Krishna-ji

 

Just a small clarification about something ascribed to

Pujya Guruji HH Swami Dayananda-ji

 

"> About meditation: Meditation is useless for atma

> jnanam. Known Atma does nto require meditation and

> if

> Atma is not known, there is nothing to meditate.

> Atma

> is an object of shravanam."

 

Not that I can by any stretch make any claims to speak

on behalf of Pujya Guruji or any of his students, but

I would like to say that a)I am not sure in what

context this was said and b) I would like to emphasize

that I have always read HH Swami Dayananda-ji speak

with customary eloquence and directness about the

importance of meditation in jnana-marga.

 

There is a small book "What is meditation" that is

essentially a compilation of a short series of

lectures His Holiness has delivered about meditation,

that I would highly highly recommend to all seekers.

 

A small excerpt

"Meditation is defined as saguna brahma visaya maanasa

vyaparah"

"The nature of the mind is to move away. The purpose

of meditation is to bring it back by practice. WHen

you bring the mind back, you discover a space within

yourself to examine the types of thinking that you

engage in at different points in your life"

"Unconcsious mind is a term used by modern

psychologists, but our sastra calls it "kashaya".

Kashaya is coloration. The key to overcome the

influence of the unconscious is to know how to handle

the patterns of thinking. Only then can you welcome

fear. To welcome fear, you must have space. This space

comes from meditation"

He subsequently goes on to talk about asansiddhi,

pranavikshanam (watching your own breathing) japa,

etc. in His own inimitable style.

 

His book on Ramana Mharshi's Upadesa Sara also goes

into great depth about some of the concepts we are

currently discussing and would be helpful to read for

those seekers who are interested in hearing his

teaching.

 

Just wanted to make sure that the people unfamiliair

with his works/teachings not harbor some

misconceptions that Swami Dayanandaji feels meditation

has no place in atma vichara - i do not think ANY

vedanta acharya ANYWHERE will ever minimalize the

importance of dhyana in vichara - it is inconceivable.

 

Humble pranams

Hari OM

Shyam

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

a)I am not sure in what

context this was said and b) I would like to emphasize

that I have always read HH Swami Dayananda-ji speak

with customary eloquence and directness about the

importance of meditation in jnana-marga.

 

praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji

Hare krishna

 

At the first sight, I too was puzzled to see swamiji's comments...but then

I thought perhaps swamiji referring here dhyAna which is aimed for some

siddhi-s (occult powers) ....as we know, Hatha yOgins, through ardous

physical torture try to contol their minds & forcefully try to awake

Kundalini shakti with severe concentration & meditation...swamiji might

have referring this & saying this type of meditation is of no use to

shAstra jnAna coz. this is purusha taNtra & results gained from this is

temporary.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

H.N.Sreenivasa Murthy

 

Dear members,

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

this text of vEdAnta sAra completely but have been told by Sri

Srinivasa Murthy prabhuji that in this text there is a mention about

*anEka sAkshi-s* in multiple jIvAtmans...>

A mistake has been committed by me while furnishing the

information. "anekasakhis" does not appear in that book.This incorrect

information is due to confusion.

I regret for this lapse on my part and I tender my apologies to

Sri Bhaskar and other members.

With respectful regards,

Sreenivasa Murthy

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaskarams. As a disciple of Swami Dayanandaji I would like to

clarify certain points here.

 

1. Swamiji's criticism of Dhyana is only in the context of Dhyana as

a direct means of attaining AtmajnAna. Even Adi Shankara while

criticising the Purvamimamsakas says that Karma is useless for

attining AtmajnAna but accepts karma done with yogaBuddhi as an

indirect means for attaining AtmajnAna. Dhyana is also a mental

Karma. So it can never be a direct means of attaining AtmajnAna. But

if Dhyana is done with the right attitude - as a preparatory step,

for preparing oneself to receive AtmajnAna, it can be accepted as an

indirect means of gaining AtmajnAna. This has to be stressed as many

people who ridicule studying the shastras or who dont accept the veda

as a pramana like the buddhists, say that Dhyana is the direct means

for moksha. This can never be accepted by any student of traditional

advaita.

 

2. Swamiji has said that sravaNa (hearing) is the angi (the one who

has parts) and manana and nidhidhyAsana are angas (parts). We have to

understand this very clearly. In sravaNa one is exposed to the

revealing sentences of the veda/shastras which talk about the oneness

of the truth of the individual and the whole. This is called

pramANavyApAra. ( the operations of a means of knowledge). When a

means of Knowledge (pramANa) operates without any obstacles then

knowledge results. So if there no obstacles then with sravaNa one

should gain knowledge. But that is not the case for most of us. So

the angas manana and nidhidhyAsana are mentioned. In manana the same

shastra/veda vakyas which were heard while doing sravaNa are analysed

to remove any vagueness and doubts. In nidhidhyAsana the vakyas which

were heard in sravaNa are recollected to make your insight strong so

that the knowledge one gained becomes firm and not just a fleeting

insight. So since the same sravaNa vakyas are used in manana and

nidhidhyAsana they are parts of sravaNa alone. So shastra sravaNa

from the guru is the direct means of AtmajnAna. Suresvaracharya in

Naishkarmyasiddhi says the repeated sravaNam itself is

NidhidhyAsanam. So this makes it clear that sravaNam is the direct

means of attaining AtmajnAnam as per our acharyas.

 

3. Those who talk about Nirvikalpa samadhi as defined in Patanjali

Yoga as the direct means of AtmajnAna are at variance with Adi

Shankaras teaching because NS or Dhyana is not accepted as a pramAna

by Shankara or any other Acharya. Only a pramaNa gives knowledge.

Even experience is not a means of knowledge because experience if not

interpreted correctly can lead to wrong knowledge/ error. NS can be

accepted as a preparatory step but it is not a necessary or

sufficient condition for attainment of AtmajnAna.

 

4. I think those who praise NS for various reasons in this forum

should answer the question whether they think NS is the necessary and

sufficient condition for attaining AtmajnAna? If yes then it is

against shankara's teaching. If no then they can still praise NS and

aspire to enter into NS, which is a great accomplishment in itself,

but with an understanding that it is a sadhana to prepare oneself for

AtmajnAna.

 

with love and prayers,

 

Jaishankar

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

>

> a)I am not sure in what

> context this was said and b) I would like to emphasize

> that I have always read HH Swami Dayananda-ji speak

> with customary eloquence and directness about the

> importance of meditation in jnana-marga.

>

> praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji

> Hare krishna

>

> At the first sight, I too was puzzled to see swamiji's

comments...but then

> I thought perhaps swamiji referring here dhyAna which is aimed for

some

> siddhi-s (occult powers) ....as we know, Hatha yOgins, through

ardous

> physical torture try to contol their minds & forcefully try to awake

> Kundalini shakti with severe concentration & meditation...swamiji

might

> have referring this & saying this type of meditation is of no use to

> shAstra jnAna coz. this is purusha taNtra & results gained from

this is

> temporary.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

[Guest guest]

Pranams Jaishankar-ji

Thank you for taking the time to provide that

enlightening clarification.

 

Nothing you have written can be contradicted by

followers of Bhagwan Sankara without contradicting

Bhagwan Shankara himself.

 

Hopefully right understanding will grace everyone.

 

Once again my pranams and please do continue to give

us your valuable opinions on a regular basis.

 

Hari OM

 

Shyam

 

--- jaishankar_n <jai1971 > wrote:

 

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> Namaskarams. As a disciple of Swami Dayanandaji I

> would like to

> clarify certain points here.

>

> 1. Swamiji's criticism of Dhyana is only in the

> context of Dhyana as

> a direct means of attaining AtmajnAna. Even Adi

> Shankara while

> criticising the Purvamimamsakas says that Karma is

> useless for

> attining AtmajnAna but accepts karma done with

> yogaBuddhi as an

> indirect means for attaining AtmajnAna. Dhyana is

> also a mental

> Karma. So it can never be a direct means of

> attaining AtmajnAna. But

> if Dhyana is done with the right attitude - as a

> preparatory step,

> for preparing oneself to receive AtmajnAna, it can

> be accepted as an

> indirect means of gaining AtmajnAna. This has to be

> stressed as many

> people who ridicule studying the shastras or who

> dont accept the veda

> as a pramana like the buddhists, say that Dhyana is

> the direct means

> for moksha. This can never be accepted by any

> student of traditional

> advaita.

>

> 2. Swamiji has said that sravaNa (hearing) is the

> angi (the one who

> has parts) and manana and nidhidhyAsana are angas

> (parts). We have to

> understand this very clearly. In sravaNa one is

> exposed to the

> revealing sentences of the veda/shastras which talk

> about the oneness

> of the truth of the individual and the whole. This

> is called

> pramANavyApAra. ( the operations of a means of

> knowledge). When a

> means of Knowledge (pramANa) operates without any

> obstacles then

> knowledge results. So if there no obstacles then

> with sravaNa one

> should gain knowledge. But that is not the case for

> most of us. So

> the angas manana and nidhidhyAsana are mentioned. In

> manana the same

> shastra/veda vakyas which were heard while doing

> sravaNa are analysed

> to remove any vagueness and doubts. In nidhidhyAsana

> the vakyas which

> were heard in sravaNa are recollected to make your

> insight strong so

> that the knowledge one gained becomes firm and not

> just a fleeting

> insight. So since the same sravaNa vakyas are used

> in manana and

> nidhidhyAsana they are parts of sravaNa alone. So

> shastra sravaNa

> from the guru is the direct means of AtmajnAna.

> Suresvaracharya in

> Naishkarmyasiddhi says the repeated sravaNam itself

> is

> NidhidhyAsanam. So this makes it clear that sravaNam

> is the direct

> means of attaining AtmajnAnam as per our acharyas.

>

> 3. Those who talk about Nirvikalpa samadhi as

> defined in Patanjali

> Yoga as the direct means of AtmajnAna are at

> variance with Adi

> Shankaras teaching because NS or Dhyana is not

> accepted as a pramAna

> by Shankara or any other Acharya. Only a pramaNa

> gives knowledge.

> Even experience is not a means of knowledge because

> experience if not

> interpreted correctly can lead to wrong knowledge/

> error. NS can be

> accepted as a preparatory step but it is not a

> necessary or

> sufficient condition for attainment of AtmajnAna.

>

> 4. I think those who praise NS for various reasons

> in this forum

> should answer the question whether they think NS is

> the necessary and

> sufficient condition for attaining AtmajnAna? If yes

> then it is

> against shankara's teaching. If no then they can

> still praise NS and

> aspire to enter into NS, which is a great

> accomplishment in itself,

> but with an understanding that it is a sadhana to

> prepare oneself for

> AtmajnAna.

>

> with love and prayers,

>

> Jaishankar

>

> advaitin, bhaskar.yr

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > a)I am not sure in what

> > context this was said and b) I would like to

> emphasize

> > that I have always read HH Swami Dayananda-ji

> speak

> > with customary eloquence and directness about the

> > importance of meditation in jnana-marga.

> >

> > praNAms Sri Shyam prabhuji

> > Hare krishna

> >

> > At the first sight, I too was puzzled to see

> swamiji's

> comments...but then

> > I thought perhaps swamiji referring here dhyAna

> which is aimed for

> some

> > siddhi-s (occult powers) ....as we know, Hatha

> yOgins, through

> ardous

> > physical torture try to contol their minds &

> forcefully try to awake

> > Kundalini shakti with severe concentration &

> meditation...swamiji

> might

> > have referring this & saying this type of

> meditation is of no use to

> > shAstra jnAna coz. this is purusha taNtra &

> results gained from

> this is

> > temporary.

> >

> > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> > bhaskar

> >

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaskarams. As a disciple of Swami Dayanandaji I would like to clarify

certain points here.

 

praNAms Sri Jaishankar prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks a lot for sharing us your most valuable view points with this august

forum....dhyAna, yOga, samAdhi etc. etc. definitely have a place in

advaita/shankara vEdAnta dictionary with an entirely different

perspective, but unfortunately Camp -A taken these terms with the doze of

patanjala yOga..Anyway, welcome to Camp -B :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Jaishankar-ji,

 

Thanks for providing to this forum a concise explanation of

Swamiji's position on Dhyana and Samadhi.

 

>

> 3. Those who talk about Nirvikalpa samadhi as defined in Patanjali

> Yoga as the direct means of AtmajnAna are at variance with Adi

> Shankaras teaching because NS or Dhyana is not accepted as a

pramAna

> by Shankara or any other Acharya.

>

First, some clarifications on nomenclature:

 

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is NOT a term used in Patanjali Yoga sutras and

linking Nirvikalpa Samadhi to Patanjali causes confusions (IMHO).

The reason I am saying this is: Linking NS to PY will conjure up

images of 'forcibly stilling the mind' etc which is not the case

with vedantic meditations

Disclaimer: I am NOT a follower of Patanjali Yoga.

 

As far as I know, Nirvikalpa Samadhi is a term used by Advaita

vedantins.

>

> 4. I think those who praise NS for various reasons in this forum

> should answer the question whether they think NS is the necessary

and

> sufficient condition for attaining AtmajnAna? If yes then it is

> against shankara's teaching.

>

 

Before we address the question whether NS is necessary and

sufficient, let us explore the question: Who is Samadhi for?

In the Brahma Sutra "samadhy-abhavacca" , the sutra indicates that

Samadhi is for the Jiva who considers himself to be a karta (doers

of actions) and bhokta (enjoyer or suffering the fruits of our

actions) - basically all of us who have the 'dehatma buddhi' (think

of ourselves as the body).

 

Sankara commenting on the sutra gives a hint as to "What Samadhi is

for" :

//

oupanishad atmapratipattiprayojanaha Samadhi upatishthahah vedantesu

 

In the Upanishads, Samadhi is taught as the means for the

(pratipatti) for the realization of the (oupanishad Atma) the atman

that is known through the Upanishads alone

//

 

Samadhi is for the removal of the 'dehatma buddhi' (body

consciousness) or viparita bhavana (wrongful identity ) and this I

believe is the definition of Nidhidhyasana.

 

In the opinion of several Advaitic purvacharyas (such as Swami

Vidyaranya etc), Nidhidhyasana has been described in the Upanishads

as = (Dhyana + Samadhi on the Atman).

 

Ofcourse the meditation that is talked about is not the objective

Upasana but the subjective Nidhidhyasana.

 

Also in the Gita (6th chapter) and in 18.52 'dhyaanayogaparo

nitya.n', Nidhidhyasana is taught as Dhyana and Samadhi.

 

I can think of several examples of Nidhidhyasana is equated to

Dhyana and Samadhi:

1. The Gita verse 6.25 points to Nirvikalpa Samadhi as the

culmination of Nidhidhyasana (not thinking of anything but the Atma

= removal of wrongful identity):

//

aatmasa.nsthaM manaH kR^itvaa na ki~nchidapi chintayet.h .. 6\-25..

 

Making the mind fixed in the Self, one should not think of anything

whatsoever.

//

2. Sri Ramana also mentions Samadhi as a means to remove the

wrongful identity (viparita bhavana):

//

D.: How did the wrong identity arise?

M.: Due to thoughts. If these thoughts are put an end to, the real

Self should shine forth of itself.

 

Talk 226.

A visitor from Tirukoilur asked if the study of the sacred books will

reveal the truth.

M.: That will not suffice.

D.: Why not?

M.: Samadhi alone can reveal it. Thoughts cast a veil over Reality

and so it cannot be clear in states other than Samadhi.

D.: Is there thought in Samadhi? Or is there not?

M.: There will only be the feeling `I am' and no other thoughts.

//

 

3. In Panchadasi, Swami Vidyarnaya describes Samadhi alongside the

section on Nidhidhyasana in the first chapter

 

So the upshot of all this is that NS is considered in a central role

in the process of Nidhidhyasana and NOT just as a means to develop

chittashuddhi (purity of mind), chittaEkAgrata (onepointedness of

mind). In fact, without chittashuddhi one cannot even perform Dhyana

let alone aspire for the state of Samadhi.

 

If NS is just a means for chittasuddhi why would Sankara

say "yogasya phalan brahmaikatva darsanam sarvasamsara

vicchedakaranam"

(6.28) the fruit of Yoga (Samadhi)

is the identity with Brahman which is the cause of uprooting of

Samsara in its entirety

 

So, the question "whether NS is the necessary and

sufficient condition for attaining AtmajnAna?"

really translates (IMHO ) to this intriguing question:

"whether Nidhidhyasana is necessary and

sufficient condition for attaining AtmajnAna?"

 

 

P.S. This is not to say NS is mandated for every one or that it is a

independent pramana. Also as you have mentioned there are

other `definitions' of Nidhidhyasana. I am just pointing out that

Nirvikalpa Samadhi (culminating from Dhyana) is also considered as

Nidhidhyasana and considered as very important..

 

=====Quote======================================================

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is prescribed not as an independent pramana but

as an important means to know the import of the Mahavakyas and

thereby dawn of Realization

===============================================================

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Sunder Rajan prabhuji

Hare krishna

 

It is really surprising for me to feel a fresh cool breeze from your latest

mail...it has really come all of a sudden surprise to me...I was just a

moment wondering is this sunder Rajan prabhuji who had vehemently argued

last year with me in favour of PYS & profusely quoting PYS to substantiate

his claims that NS/AS of PYS is nothing but Atma jnAna of vEdAnta & asking

me to study PYS commentary written by one Mr. Umesh in the book called

Science of Mind Control !!!! Anyway, thanks for changing your stand on PYS

& it is a good sign that you are heading towards Camp-B :-))

 

RK prabhuji:

 

First, some clarifications on nomenclature:

 

Nirvikalpa Samadhi is NOT a term used in Patanjali Yoga sutras and

linking Nirvikalpa Samadhi to Patanjali causes confusions (IMHO).

 

bhaskar :

 

Since you are well versed & good understanding of both yOga's asaMprjnAtha

samAdhi & vEdAntins nirvikalpa samAdhi kindly educate us about the

difference between these two states *experiencewise*...So that we can learn

new perspective afresh!!

 

SR prabhuji :

 

The reason I am saying this is: Linking NS to PY will conjure up images of

'forcibly stilling the mind' etc which is not the case with vedantic

meditations

 

Disclaimer: I am NOT a follower of Patanjali Yoga.

 

bhaskar :

 

infact, as said in my one of the earlier posts, shankara himself talks

about chitta vrutti nirOdha, by exactly using the same terminologies of

PYS...

 

your disclaimer notification is prabhuji really quite heartening...

 

I dont want to stretch this discussion any further...as major part of the

problem between us has been resolved by your declaration :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar