What are the qualities of a guru you can trust?

[harerama]

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

[Sunanda]

 

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

 

Well, if your guru falls down, it means he wasn't a pure devotee, so you can take another one. Better is to take your time to choose. First pray to Krsna that he will send you a bona-fide guru.

 

I'd like to add that you can have very special interactions with your guru, like in dreams for example. There are a lot of people that will not be able to bring you back to God because they don't have the power to do it, still they are accepting to be worshipped as gurus. Be very careful in your choice and i wish you all the best.

[harerama]

 

Well, if your guru falls down, it means he wasn't a pure devotee, so you can take another one. Better is to take your time to choose. First pray to Krsna that he will send you a bona-fide guru.

 

I'd like to add that you can have very special interactions with your guru, like in dreams for example. There are a lot of people that will not be able to bring you back to God because they don't have the power to do it, still they are accepting to be worshipped as gurus. Be very careful in your choice and i wish you all the best.

 

I've read of accounts where people have seen Sathya Sai baba in their dreams and they took it to mean that he was their real guru. So they become disciples of his and then later feel betrayed by their trust in him.

 

So how would you know who is your authentic guru?

 

By the way, I'm not seeking a guru out right now, I'm just curious as to what would be the qualities devotees would look for and how they make such judgment calls.

[stonehearted]

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

 

Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters.

 

SB 11.3.21

[Sridas]

 

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

 

You would probably feel dissapointed, but according to ones own sincerity we will be directed to the shelter of a soul of similar sincerity, giving you full confidence in your desired goal.

.

 

Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta, says that all good qualities become manifest in the body of a Vaisnava and that only by the presence of these good qualities can one distinguish a Vaisnava form a non-Vaisnava. Krsnadasa Kaviraja lists the twenty-six good qualities of a Vaisnava:

Here are the qualities to look for in a genuine spiritual master

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent.

[harerama]

 

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

 

Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters.

 

SB 11.3.21

 

There are many gurus who can convince others of their understanding of scriptures. They can even through shaktipat raise a disciple's shakti so he can experience inner bliss. And yet, eventually, there may still be people who become disciples that end up disillusioned and bitter about the guru thinking he is deceptive in his practices and does not actually practice what he preaches. In other words, he seems bona fide, yet is not bona fide. So what do we do then? How can you trust any guru in this world if such circumstances are actually fairly common place?

[harerama]

 

You would probably feel dissapointed, but according to ones own sincerity we will be directed to the shelter of a soul of similar sincerity, giving you full confidence in your desired goal.

.

 

Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the author of Caitanya-caritamrta, says that all good qualities become manifest in the body of a Vaisnava and that only by the presence of these good qualities can one distinguish a Vaisnava form a non-Vaisnava. Krsnadasa Kaviraja lists the twenty-six good qualities of a Vaisnava:

 

Here are the qualities to look for in a genuine spiritual master

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent.

 

A lot of these qualities seem inherently subjective. For instance, what is truth? By truth do we mean material or spiritual truth? And if we mean spiritual truth how can we determine that what the guru has said is spiritually true?

 

And how can we determine if the guru follows all these principles 100% of the time, instead of simply in the public eye?

 

Also, what if there are people out there who have bad things to say about him? Then does that make the guru not a bona fide guru? What if the people who say bad things about him are liars, of asuric mentality? That would invalidate their own statements, yet we cannot know the truth of their statements, because in many cases it's a "He said... she said" issue.

 

 

I realize I'm being argumentative, but I genuinely want to know and gain some insight into such things. I want to believe, but right now I'm having a major crisis of faith.

[vijay]

 

A lot of these qualities seem inherently subjective. For instance, what is truth? By truth do we mean material or spiritual truth? And if we mean spiritual truth how can we determine that what the guru has said is spiritually true?

 

And how can we determine if the guru follows all these principles 100% of the time, instead of simply in the public eye?

 

Also, what if there are people out there who have bad things to say about him? Then does that make the guru not a bona fide guru? What if the people who say bad things about him are liars, of asuric mentality? That would invalidate their own statements, yet we cannot know the truth of their statements, because in many cases it's a "He said... she said" issue.

 

 

I realize I'm being argumentative, but I genuinely want to know and gain some insight into such things. I want to believe, but right now I'm having a major crisis of faith.

 

Haribol prabhu, I'll add my 2 bits worth, I have had the same questions, its a fact that a conditioned soul can never know a pure devotee either by his own calculations or by others proclaiming it. Only a pure devotee can know another pure devotee.

 

What we can see is a stage that is just above us, we cant know how high someone is but we can know he is higher. EG Someone always preaching or engaged in service and chanting the lords name that deals with vaishnavas nicely means I can learn a lot from him, and therefore I will associate with him to obtain those qualities. This is a guru. The person who you can learn the most from to get to a stage where you can think of Krishna is Guru.

 

Prabhupada's simple criteria for finding a guru was See how addicted he is to Krishna, in every page he talks about krisna. When I first heard this I dismissed it and looked for more technical answers in sastra.

 

You nor anyone on these forums unless they are unconditioned souls cant garantee to anyone that some guru will not fall.

 

The only thing you can do is find and accept to learn humbly from a senior devotee that exhibts the qualities of a vaishnava and shows his love for krishna by his activities for him. From this devotee learn everything you can treating him with the same respect as god. Although the guru has a special place we are suppose to treat any vaishnava with the same respect as god (even including guests and parents (ignoring anything they say thats not condusive for kc though)), as they are all to some degree via mediums to Krishna and pleasing Krishna.

 

Your guru may or may not fall down, either way what gets you back to krishna is your conciousness of Krishna serving all the vaishnavas not just the diksha guru. If your diksha guru falls its Krishnas arrangement, he gives us what we need in the ultimate sense. We should realise that its not mearly diksha that gets you back to krishna its siksa, this could be from your diksa guru or other vaishnavas.

 

In the begining stages basic siksa from not strong devotees can take us a long way in our bhakti as they are more advanced than us, but in our advanced stages we need guidance from devotees more advance than us.

 

When a guru falls down krishna gives us what we deserve and from that we can learn, you take a guru cos he;s logical or a good singer and he falls next time you will hopefully learn its deeper than that if you've advanced in the path of bhakti onwards and forwards. We will make mistakes its natural and something to learn from it brings us closer to krishna, we have been stuck in this hole for millions of lives we are mad so mistakes will happen but ultimately they teach us something. Dont use the fear of making a mistake a reason not to take formal initiation and serving the spiritual master and other siksa gurus. One thing is read prabhupadas books very carefully and scrutinize what he is saying. The more we can do this the more we can sharpen our spiritual intelligence and remove our conditioning thus we dont have to learn lessons the hard way.

 

We should also try and learn the basics of guru tatva which im still trying to get my head around. Neophtes generally think only my guru is the best hell with the rest. Madhayamas only learn from my guru and the senior vaishnavas, a devotee higher than that sees his guru as all the vaishnavas and even sees guru in the non devotees adn learns lesson from nature as well (the autumn season in vrindavan - krishna book). When one is even more humbler he hears paramatma directly which is also the manifestation of guru, rather than the singular personality cult guru that most people view their guru as.(The personality cult guru is a natural first step in krishna conciousness as it attracts the devotees but can be dangerous after a while if no further understanding is gained and/or the guru is not so advanced (early prabhupada days was similar)

 

These are some of the thoughts I've had when thinking about this topic which im ever learning about, hope that helps.

[Sridas]

 

A lot of these qualities seem inherently subjective. For instance, what is truth? By truth do we mean material or spiritual truth? And if we mean spiritual truth how can we determine that what the guru has said is spiritually true?

 

And how can we determine if the guru follows all these principles 100% of the time, instead of simply in the public eye?

 

Also, what if there are people out there who have bad things to say about him? Then does that make the guru not a bona fide guru? What if the people who say bad things about him are liars, of asuric mentality? That would invalidate their own statements, yet we cannot know the truth of their statements, because in many cases it's a "He said... she said" issue.

 

 

I realize I'm being argumentative, but I genuinely want to know and gain some insight into such things. I want to believe, but right now I'm having a major crisis of faith.

 

Hare Krsna Harerama,

To what degree of Truth you wish to know Krsna, Krsna will provide a teacher accordingly, Krsna is the Truth personified and Guru is his mouthpiece in this world Acharyam mam vijaniyam I am the Acharya. And a real guru can give you that Truth. It's tangible.

 

He knows you far better than you know your self, he's looking at you from the inside out.

And He will only conceal or reaveal Himself as much as you want Him, so try to find the prayers within yourself for Him to lift the deluding energy so that you won't be cheated. The way to gain favour and sukriti is by serving Vaisnavas on all levels, Then the Lord and his devotees will reciprocate when they see that you genuinly want to become a devotee yourself.

 

Still we may not trust our own vision and discerning faculty to tell the difference between the diamond and the zirconia. That's where the help of the higher vaisnavas cuts in. There are those who have practiced KC most of their lives who may obviously exemplify many of the above qualities, and you will feel some attraction to thier company in your heart.

 

A practical example of the vaisnavas help for me personally was when Srila Prabhupad directed his disciples to go to Srila Sridhara Maharaj for any guidance, as he personally regarded him as his Siksa guru, so what to speak of our benefit. But then we may still need assistence when our Guru Maharaj leaves this world, so just a diksa connection may not suffice to see us advance in the physical absence from Guru.

 

But then once again in this particular instance the pure maha bhagavat comes to help. As Vijay has said, It takes a 'suddha bhakta' to know one.

So when Srila Sridhara Maharaj told us that his most intimate servitor Srila Bhkti Sundara Govinda Maharaj's connection was as good as one to himself if not better. Then that is as good as recomendation to us from Krsna Himself.

So although some of his disciples may not have followed that directive in the beginning, now there are thousands all over the world who do, and are getting increasing satisfaction and inner fullfilment, with their 'Krsna Consciousness' progressing quite steadily and happily, what's more Srila Prabhupad also gave his favour to him many times. So we can see how confirmation from the higher agents is very helpful in confirming your own hearts conclusions.

Then it is recommended the aspirant should live around such an acharya for some time observing the fruit of their practice, according to what you know of shastra, and make an informed choice not just based on blind sentiment, or others recommendations. So these three: sadhu, shastra and the Lord in your heart will confirm.

 

This doesn't have to be a personality cult thing, and the truth is we will always eternally be indebted and grateful to our gurudev who if purified, will be serving his guru in their eternal spiritual siddha swarup around the service of those intimate servants in Goloka. Not that we will cross over our master or mistress and go direct to Krsna. We are Gopi dasanudas and that is the way it remains in the Rupanuga line that Srila Prabhupad is propagating.

That doesn't mean we won't also see all others in the land of gurus as our master, even the land itself will be thoughouly honorable that's true. At the same time we can be directed by the Lord within, but our service will come from our eternal gurudev who is always closer to the inner core of divine servitors. And this doesn't have to be pie in the future sky if we are properly adjusted it can be happening right here... right now, as there is no distance from guru to those who are surrendered to their masters holy lotus feet, you can be in constant communication on a regular basis if we are fullfilling the will of guru, and following the instructions and directives.

 

So it is truly worth while finding and taking connection to the genuine representative of Bhagawan Sri Krsna, i hope your sincerity directs you to such an acharya. All the best.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

A practical example of the vaisnavas help for me personally was when Srila Prabhupad directed his disciples to go to Srila Sridhara Maharaj for any guidance, as he personally regarded him as his Siksa guru, so what to speak of our benefit.

 

 

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's statement about Sridhara Maharaja being his 'siksa guru' let us look at the complete statement.

 

 

For spiritual advancement of life, we must go to one who is actually practicing spiritual life; not to some head of a mundane institution, not to one who has offended his Spiritual Master in so many ways. I do not wish to go into all details here, but I must inform you that this Bon Maharaja may be considered as a black snake, and at the time of His Disappearance, my Guru Maharaja did not even wish to have him in His presence due to the character of this Bon Maharaja. So if you are actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, I can refer you to one who is most highly competent of all my god-brothers. This is B.R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that you can have from his association. He is living in Navadvipa, and if you like, I can give you letter of introduction as well as I will send him letter to allow you to stay there with him. So if you and Acyutananda are not lost to the poison of Bon Maharaja, and are still serious about advancement of your spiritual life, I will advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja. Or else I do not know what will save you. So my advice to you both is that you immediately leave the unhealthy and envious association of Bon Maharaja and either proceed to Germany as I have instructed you, or at least go to someone who will be competent to act as siksha guru. This is Sridhara Maharaja.

 

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's statement about Sridhara Maharaja being his 'siksa guru' let us look at the complete statement. It comes from a letter in 1969 to a disciple Hrisikesa, who had ALREADY REJECTED Srila Prabhupada, and who wished to join the Gaudiya Matha. However he had selected to join Bon Maharaja who Srila Prabhupada describes in the same letter as being a 'black snake'. Therefore in order to save someone who had already left ISKCON, from going to a black snake, Srila Prabhupada refers him to Sridhara Maharaja. Why? Because as Srila Prabhupada states later:

" But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service."

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

 

Because Sridhara Maharaja was the best of the 'lot', the same 'lot' which Srila Prabhupada also condemned as not being qualified to be acharya,

"Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is

qualified

to become

acarya

. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

 

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

 

and because he AT LEAST followed the regulative principles, Sridhara Maharaja was recommended as an alternative to a black snake.

 

Therefore this was NOT just an act of diplomacy. It was an act of mercy, to save someone from a black snake, and therefore the person was advised to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja, and in THIS CONNECTION Sridhara Maharaja is praised, in order to induce his disciple to leave Bon Maharaja.

 

However please note the following facts which are relevant:

 

1. EVEN if we accept for the sake of argument, that Sridhara Maharaja WAS Srila Prabhupada's Siksa guru, Srila Prabhupada never tells US to accept Sridhara Maharaja as OUR Siksa guru or to consult him. On the contrary, as I have quoted before, he instructs US to actually AVOID Sridhara Maharaja.
   
   
2. Further the only time anyone was advised to go to Sridhara Maharaja, was only to STOP that person from going to a 'black snake'.
   
   
3. Thus there are NO instructions from Srila Prabhupada instructing us to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja (except to stop one person from taking shelter from a 'black snake'), but there ARE instructions from Srila Prabhupada telling us to NOT take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja.

Therefore we can conclude:

 

1. If you wish to take shelter of a black snake, and have rejected the shelter of Srila Prabhupada, THEN Sridhara maharaja is a better alternative.
   
   
2. In ALL OTHER CASES - Avoid the association of Sridhara Maharaja.

This is what Srila Prabhupada actually advises.

[Srimanta]

 

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

 

If your Guru always offers all his actions and glories to Krsna and his Guru, He is one real Guru. Servitude towards Krsna is the only means to know one has realized Krsna. One who has realized Krsna will never take position of Krsna that is for sure because He knows merits and demerits of taking position of supreme person Krsna. Lord Chaitannya Mohaprabhu becoming Lord Himself had taken that position then what to say about other!!!!!

Bottom line is, one who remains servant of Krsna after realizing Krsna and offers all His glories immediately to Krsna, He is real Guru.

[Sridas]

I repeat these qualities of a vaisnava they fit Srila Sridhara Maharaj perfectly:

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent.

 

It's up to each aspiring soul if they are genuinely seeking a representitive of Swayam Bhagavan Sri Krsna, to seek these qualities in the acharya, and in doing so imbibe them into oneself.

I personally found all of these qualities and more in the personality of Srila Sridhara Maharaj as did thousands of far more advanced souls than myself.

It appears somewhat contradictary if this is truly the statement of Srila Prabhupad as he himself visited Srila SM on numerous occasions, at times with his young and fresh neophyte disciples who at that time had no idea what vaisnava ettiquette was, and in their kanishta maddness insulted SSM, who only ever tried to help them as a loving father, friend and guardian, because Prabhupad asked him if SSM "could polish them up," as he felt he didn't have the time to finish what he started and they were still rough cut gems, so he requested of SSM, "if they come to you, you can refine them"

Prabhupad even took them to Srila Sridhara Maharaj to learn the proper honor for Vyasa puja also.

Further more Acyutananda Prabhu was personally sent by Prabhupad to live at SSM's Math to learn the songs of the Gaudiya Acharyas, it doesn't exactly make sense if he didn't want them to associate with SSM that he would ask them to learn the mood of kirtan at Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math.

but there is so much 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation misconception, controversy and confusion abounding these days about so many issues, that it doesn't surprise me what states of ignorance and aparadhe proliforate in the name of Krsna consciousness.

I can understand Prabhupad wanted to protect his disciples from hearing aparadhe against himself thus dissturbing their faith, but even more from some of his immature young fanatics causing problems with their still raw fundermentalist KC.

 

That's why we'd recommend hearing direct from someone who spent many years of intimate association with both of these glorious acharyas.

Srila Sridhara Maharaj never needed anyone's certificate of authenticity to verify his credentials, as the fruit of his actions more then amply confirmed his level of God realization.

We're like pigmies trying to touch the self effulgent moon when it comes to his glories. Even Sri Sesa Naga would get tongue tired trying to befittingly praise His divine Grace, but if it did need someone then there is no one more fitting than his own guru Srila Bhaktisidanta Saraswati Thakur, when he stated, "Now I'm satisfied at least one person can continue our (disciplic) line." After reading one of SSM's eulogies and deep insight into the spirit of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Some of us have fortunately had siksa and diksa from both SSM and SACBSP and met with various other godbrothers of them both, and I've found them all to be proper gentlemen, all with different unique individual qualifications and contributions. Maybe not on the scale of Srila Prabhupad's dispensation to the west, but even if they just make one sincere devotee or make themselves a devotee it's good enough.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj may not have made it to the western world, but neither did Mahaprabhu in his time, yet many of SSM's disciples and grand disciples through the grace of Srila Govinda Maharaj have taken Krsna consciousness to just about every country of the globe.

 

Your sur name isn't Harry Karri is it?

 

Regarding this nonsense statement;

 

Therefore we can conclude:

 

1. If you wish to take shelter of a black snake, and have rejected the shelter of Srila Prabhupada, THEN Sridhara maharaja is a better alternative.
   
   
2. In ALL OTHER CASES - Avoid the association of Sridhara Maharaja.

This is what Srila Prabhupada actually advises.

 

This is your conclusion Harry and is diametrically opposite of what SP advised.

so if you make yourself party to such erroneous conclusions take resposibility for your own statements, and the consequences of such propergation. But thank God and Prabhupad that many of his sincere disciples didn't come up with the same unfortunate twisted logic that you have.

 

Try this also from Prabhupad;

 

"who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru. If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future." (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

Or if you want an even more comprehensive and accurate assesment of these our beloved guardians relationship go here to

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/sridhara_mj_fs.html

for further in depth understanding. All based on hard copy and taped conversations.

 

Don't just cut and paste from IRM, try getting a little more perspective, otherwise you run the risk of cutting off the very head that gives life to everyones body. As you are doing Srila Prabhupad and those observers that take on board such a narrow view, a grave disservice.

I might add that most everyone I know from the line of Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaj worships the divine relationship of these two great souls with the uttmost reverence and honor as they both would have wished of each other.

Both Srila Govinda Maharaj and Srila Sridhara Maharaj lived together preaching in the same house as Prabhupad for twelve years in their early devotional life, travelling around India chanting and preaching before most of us had even taken birth.

And yet somehow we have the arrogance to think we know all about them from some snippet we read.

 

[Sridas]

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/sridhara_mj_fs.html

 

This previous link is to 'Other articles' first, then go to 'Our Affectionate Guardians'.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

I repeat these qualities of a vaisnava they fit Srila Sridhara Maharaj perfectly:

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent.

 

 

(27) He is not qualified to become acarya.

 

"Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

 

 

 

It's up to each aspiring soul if they are genuinely seeking a representitive of Swayam Bhagavan Sri Krsna, to seek these qualities in the acharya, and in doing so imbibe them into oneself.

I personally found all of these qualities and more in the personality of Srila Sridhara Maharaj as did thousands of far more advanced souls than myself.

It appears somewhat contradictary if this is truly the statement of Srila Prabhupad

 

You can't believe it. Wake up babe! It is there, so either you have got it wrong or ? I would rather not mention the alternative option.

 

 

as he himself visited Srila SM on numerous occasions, at times with his young and fresh neophyte disciples who at that time had no idea what vaisnava ettiquette was, and in their kanishta maddness insulted SSM, who only ever tried to help them as a loving father, friend and guardian, because Prabhupad asked him if SSM "could polish them up," as he felt he didn't have the time to finish what he started and they were still rough cut gems, so he requested of SSM, "if they come to you, you can refine them"

 

Please prove these statement that you have in quotation marks by supplying verifiable references.

 

 

Prabhupad even took them to Srila Sridhara Maharaj to learn the proper honor for Vyasa puja also.

 

Please prove this also.

 

 

Further more Acyutananda Prabhu was personally sent by Prabhupad to live at SSM's Math to learn the songs of the Gaudiya Acharyas, it doesn't exactly make sense if he didn't want them to associate with SSM that he would ask them to learn the mood of kirtan at Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math.

 

 

Please prove this also.

 

 

but there is so much 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation misconception, controversy and confusion abounding these days about so many issues, that it doesn't surprise me what states of ignorance and aparadhe proliforate in the name of Krsna consciousness.

 

Well we can agree on this point. Of course I don't expect you to perceive that you are also adding to the situation by your unverified statements.

 

 

I can understand Prabhupad wanted to protect his disciples from hearing aparadhe against himself thus dissturbing their faith, but even more from some of his immature young fanatics causing problems with their still raw fundermentalist KC.

 

That's why we'd recommend hearing direct from someone who spent many years of intimate association with both of these glorious acharyas.

Srila Sridhara Maharaj never needed anyone's certificate of authenticity to verify his credentials, as the fruit of his actions more then amply confirmed his level of God realization.

 

Once again your statements are just not in line with those of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific authorisation from the predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru:

 

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities."

(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

Indian man: When did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: He is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna Consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada: When my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara.

Indian man: Did it...

Srila Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

 

Thus, according to Srila Prabhupada, one can only become a diksa guru when both the qualification and authorisation are in place.

 

 

We're like pigmies trying to touch the self effulgent moon when it comes to his glories. Even Sri Sesa Naga would get tongue tired trying to befittingly praise His divine Grace, but if it did need someone then there is no one more fitting than his own guru Srila Bhaktisidanta Saraswati Thakur, when he stated, "Now I'm satisfied at least one person can continue our (disciplic) line." After reading one of SSM's eulogies and deep insight into the spirit of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Even if what you have written here is true, it proves nothing. For example he could have been looking at Srila Prabhupada when he said "Now I'm satisfied at least one person can continue our (disciplic) line."

 

 

Some of us have fortunately had siksa and diksa from both SSM and SACBSP and met with various other godbrothers of them both, and I've found them all to be proper gentlemen, all with different unique individual qualifications and contributions. Maybe not on the scale of Srila Prabhupad's dispensation to the west, but even if they just make one sincere devotee or make themselves a devotee it's good enough.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj may not have made it to the western world, but neither did Mahaprabhu in his time, yet many of SSM's disciples and grand disciples through the grace of Srila Govinda Maharaj have taken Krsna consciousness to just about every country of the globe.

 

Your sur name isn't Harry Karri is it?

 

No, but I hope you are not trying to be offensive!

 

 

Regarding this nonsense statement;

 

Therefore we can conclude:

If you wish to take shelter of a black snake, and have rejected the shelter of Srila Prabhupada, THEN Sridhara maharaja is a better alternative.

In ALL OTHER CASES - Avoid the association of Sridhara Maharaja.

This is what Srila Prabhupada actually advises.

 

This is your conclusion Harry and is diametrically opposite of what SP advised.

so if you make yourself party to such erroneous conclusions take resposibility for your own statements, and the consequences of such propergation. But thank God and Prabhupad that many of his sincere disciples didn't come up with the same unfortunate twisted logic that you have.

 

Try this also from Prabhupad;

 

"who is the most highly competent of all my godbrothers. This is B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, whom I consider to be even my siksa guru. If you are serious about the advancement of your spiritual life, I advise you to go to Sridhara Maharaja and I will feel that you are safe.You can also make arrangements for your other godbrothers to go there in the future." (SP Ltr. Hrsikesa, January 1, 1969)

 

Yes, well I think you are chewing the chewed here.

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's statement about Sridhara Maharaja being his 'siksa guru' let us look at the complete statement. It comes from a letter in 1969 to a disciple Hrisikesa, who had ALREADY REJECTED Srila Prabhupada, and who wished to join the Gaudiya Matha. However he had selected to join Bon Maharaja who Srila Prabhupada describes in the same letter as being a 'black snake'. Therefore in order to save someone who had already left ISKCON, from going to a black snake, Srila Prabhupada refers him to Sridhara Maharaja. Why? Because as Srila Prabhupada states later:

 

" But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service."

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

Because Sridhara Maharaja was the best of the 'lot', the same 'lot' which Srila Prabhupada also condemned as not being qualified to be acharya,

 

"Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

(Letter to Rupunuga, 28/4/74)

 

and because he AT LEAST followed the regulative principles, Sridhara Maharaja was recommended as an alternative to a black snake.

Therefore this was NOT just an act of diplomacy. It was an act of mercy, to save someone from a black snake, and therefore the person was advised to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja, and in THIS CONNECTION Sridhara Maharaja is praised, in order to induce his disciple to leave Bon Maharaja.

However please note the following facts which are relevant:

 

EVEN if we accept for the sake of argument, that Sridhara Maharaja WAS Srila Prabhupada's Siksa guru, Srila Prabhupada never tells US to accept Sridhara Maharaja as OUR Siksa guru or to consult him. On the contrary, as I have quoted before, he instructs US to actually AVOID Sridhara Maharaja.

Further the only time anyone was advised to go to Sridhara Maharaja, was only to STOP that person from going to a 'black snake'.

 

Thus there are NO instructions from Srila Prabhupada instructing us to take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja (except to stop one person from taking shelter from a 'black snake'), but there ARE instructions from Srila Prabhupada telling us to NOT take shelter of Sridhara Maharaja.

 

Therefore we can conclude:

If you wish to take shelter of a black snake, and have rejected the shelter of Srila Prabhupada, THEN Sridhara maharaja is a better alternative.

In ALL OTHER CASES - Avoid the association of Sridhara Maharaja.

This is what Srila Prabhupada actually advises.

 

 

Or if you want an even more comprehensive and accurate assesment of these our beloved guardians relationship go here ...for further in depth understanding. All based on hard copy and taped conversations.

Don't just cut and paste from IRM,

 

Why not? If you can demonstrate that what is posted is false, then I can see your point. However you have not been able to demonstrate such, so far.

 

try getting a little more perspective, otherwise you run the risk of cutting off the very head that gives life to everyones body. As you are doing Srila Prabhupad and those observers that take on board such a narrow view, a grave disservice.

I might add that most everyone I know from the line of Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaj worships the divine relationship of these two great souls with the uttmost reverence and honor as they both would have wished of each other.

Both Srila Govinda Maharaj and Srila Sridhara Maharaj lived together preaching in the same house as Prabhupad for twelve years in their early devotional life, travelling around India chanting and preaching before most of us had even taken birth.

And yet somehow we have the arrogance to think we know all about them from some snippet we read.

 

 

I think that you have displayed the same arrogance in your post. So how can I learn from you?

[Puru_Das]

You can broaden your perspective regarding Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers by examining this article:

 

Srila Prabhupada and His Godbrothers

SRILA PRABHUPADA AND THE GAUDIYA MATH

By Sridam sakha das

http://bvml.org/contemporary/srila.htm

 

and you can broaden your perspective regarding sadhu-sanga by examining these quotes from His Divine Grace, his actual instructions on the matter:

 

108

Srila Prabhupada Quotes

On the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devotees

http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm

 

"(II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu?

 

According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger, thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga."

 

Introduction to Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu

Translated by

TRIDANDI SWAMI BHAKTI HRIDAYA BON MAHARAJ

Rector, Institute of Oriental Philosophy

Vrndavan, U.P., India

 

Whenever His Divine Grace made observations about some of his godbrothers, it was out of pure devotion to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that he did so. Unless we share the same level of bhava for guru and Gauranga we should not think they are suitable for us to repeat. We cannot imitate His Divine Grace.

 

Unless you have full realization of the depth of Srila Prabhupada's internal mood how is it possible to really understand the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakuras' disciples? Spiritual uncles, according to Srila Narahari Sakara Thakura, are due as much respect as spiritual fathers. Godbrothers often speak to each other more intimately than they do to their disciples. This is true even in the mundane realm, let alone, the transcendental platform.

 

For the health of our own devotion creeper we should avoid indulging in useless controversies, and not take sides in what appear to be "disagreements" between liberated souls.

 

The following quote pertains directly to a discussion regarding Srila Jiva Gosvami and Srila Rupa Gosvami, however it is still very instructive:

 

". . . What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons. There is, however, the element of mystery in their verbal controversies. Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views."

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

purport verse 37 Sri Brahma Samhita

[Puru_Das]

<CENTER>The Heart of Krsna

 

</CENTER><CENTER>(Vaishnava Aparadha & The Path of Spiritual Caution)

 

</CENTER><CENTER>by His Divine Grace

 

</CENTER><CENTER>Paramahamsa Vaisnava Thakura Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja

 

</CENTER>

 

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/hok-intr.htm

 

excerpt:

 

 

"Srila Prabhupada (SBSST) writes:

 

 

Even if one is a Vaishnava, if he commits offenses to the Holy Name, he becomes unfit to render pure devotion. Although it may appear that he is still being shown favor by the Lord as he continues to make a show of chanting without difficulty, the Lord is actually very displeased with him because of his antagonism toward devotees. Therefore, to give up

nama-aparadha

we must first give up

sadhu-ninda

or finding fault with devotees.

 

Regarding the phrase krsna krpa hoileo ("even though he may receive Krishna's mercy"), Srila Saraswati Thakur comments:

 

 

People may think that because an offender appears to continue to chant without difficulty, the Lord must still favor him, but they are wrong. The Lord is not even slightly moved by their sham devotion.

 

The author of Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, Vrndavana dasa Thakur, says that these statements are not his alone; they are the verdict of the Vedas. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did not tolerate any disrespect towards genuine Vaishnavas. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also emphatically denounced any insults directed at Vaishnava devotees. To understand the seriousness of vaisnava-aparadha, offending devotees, one must grasp the multi-faceted, multi-dimensional nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu is the source of all incarnations in Kali-yuga and the savior of all souls. He is Krishna, the son of Maharaja Nanda, fully enriched with the mood and radiance of Sri Radha."

[theist]

 

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

 

I see accepting a guru as a continuing process. IMO people make a big mistake by sentimentally accepting someone they think is a guru just because they have been told you must have a guru to understand God consciousness. So they try to hurry the process along.

 

We cannot find guru on the basis of who is the most popular or the most charismatic guy around. or the person whom everyone else is pointing to and bowing to. Nor can we rely on our mental understanding of the scriptures instructions on who is guru our not because we can't see who really loves Krsna and who is just going through the motions. We are easily cheated and helpless.

 

But our complete helplessness can be used to our advantage if we are willing to acknowledge that helplessness to Krsna in the heart and ask Him to please reveal His devotee to us. The Lord in the heart is leading everyone spiritualist or materialist according to our desires and qualifications so it stands to reason that He will lead us to His representative if we are sincere afterall the guru is the external form of the Supersoul so I believe the starting and ending point in this search should be the Caitya-guru.

 

Until Krsna reveals guru to us personally I don't believe it is possible to ACCEPT a spiritual master, His representative in the true sense of the word.

 

To the unfortunate soul who feels it proper to sling *rap on the name of B.R. Sridhar Maharaja please spew your poison elsewhere. Your hellish mentality and phony allegiance to Srila Prabhupada is seen here for what it is.

[Srimanta]

 

I've read of accounts where people have seen Sathya Sai baba in their dreams and they took it to mean that he was their real guru. So they become disciples of his and then later feel betrayed by their trust in him.

 

So how would you know who is your authentic guru?

 

By the way, I'm not seeking a guru out right now, I'm just curious as to what would be the qualities devotees would look for and how they make such judgment calls.

 

I was chanting Narayana from my birth and Lord Chaitannya visited me after my birth and also later. I was looking for Narayana. Sathya Sai Baba (later revealed to me) who came to my work place at Bangalore 10 yrs back and initiated me keeping His identity secret with Hare Krsna mohamantra and told me that I am His Chela. During this initiation I did not asked His identity but He given me hints saying, come to my Ashram at Whitefield though I forgotten. Later many demigods including Krsna, Chaitannya and Narayana gave darshan to me.

So Sathya Sai Baba is prefect spiritual Guru and Narayana Himself. I had seen His subtle Body as Narayana. Sathya Sai Baba's birth name is Sathya Narayana and Sirdi Sai Baba worshiped Narayana to get His blessing and Sirdi Sai entered within the body of Sathya Narayana and became Sathya Sai Baba. Sirdi Sai was Lord Shiva Himself.

So there is no doubt that anybody who worships Sathya Sai Baba will get blessing of Shiva and Narayana both. Sathya Sai Baba is authorized Guru by lord Krsna and every body must get His blessing, if possible initiation of Hare Krsna mohamantra.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"...If you want to be cheated, Krsna will send you to a cheater. Krsna is superintelligent. If you are a cheater, He will cheat you perfectly. But if you are actually sincere, then He will give you the right guidance..." [Prabhupada December 07, 1973]

 

So if one's guru falls down - it may not be 'all about the guru'!

 

We do need a guru [AND NOT ONE THAT CLAIMS TO BE GOD] and we have one in the vast teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta - even if we have an external 'guru' - we still have to learn everything - from Prabhupada's books - so then - it is important to the well being of one's faith - to understand Prabhupada and to avail oneself [not of those which Prabhupada warned us away from either] of advanced devotees [where needed] to do that - but - to be certain - the only thing that is going to really give us the instructions we need and - at the times we need it - are Prabhupada's books. For the most part - with the vedabase and - a search one can adduce the meanings of points in Prabhupada's books quite quickly.

 

If we have a vapu guru - we shall not be with him all the time shall we - then what do we do?

 

So better to get a vedabase and start to have a digital guru disciple relationship with the vani of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Here is an older download of a free vedabase! FREE and FULL SEARCHABLE VERSION of BOOKS ETC., CHECK IT OUT:

 

http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?26500000037010

 

Later - if we want a guru for the formality of the matter - then so be it - but - better to first have a very firm faith and understanding - without need for an 'external' guru.

[Bhakta Harry]

Sridas prabhu;

 

Having looked at the website which you have linked to. I have selected chapter four of “Our Affectionate Guardians” as being the most relevant to the points under discussion. Chapter four begins with an attempt to present some evidence as proof that Srila Prabhupada wanted his disciples to approach “Sridhara Maharaja if they had questions about philosophical matters.” The authors of this document then proceed to give us testimonies from several of Shrila Prabhupada disciples, to this effect. However there is no written or taped evidence from Srila Prabhupada himself which is essential if the author’s are trying to establish their point. The testimonies from Srila Prabhupada’s disciples is acceptable as supporting evidence but without direct statements from His Divine Grace the position of the author’s can be considered to be very weak.

This fact is practically admitted by the authors themselves when they state that “[some of whom later changed their minds regarding the validity of their previous statements].” This quote is in regard to the validity of the statements which they are presenting as evidence, as such is most revealing as to the nature of their evidence. Srila Prabhupada himself said in a letter to Omkara –Vrindaban 2 September, 1975

 

“.. They misunderstand me. Unless it is there from me in writing, there are so many things that ‘Prabhupada said.’ ”

 

There is nothing in writing from Srila Prabhupada to confirm the validity of the testimonies of his disciples, which as the author's have admitted, are constantly changing. Depending on whom they are speaking to at the time etc.

 

The authors then proceed to inform us that sometimes “Srila Prabhupada himself spoke highly of Srila Sridhara Maharaja”. They then give 5 quotes to substantiate this conclusion. Of these five statements only three can be verified by looking on the vedabase. It would be nice if the author’s could produce the other two statements in full and if they are bona-fide - present them to the Bhaktivedanta Archives for inclusion in the next version of the Vedabase.

 

However no one is disputing the fact that sometimes Srila Prabhupada did speak highly of Sridhar Maharaj. This however does not prove that he instructed his disciples to go to Sridhar Maharaj after his departure, or at any other time for that matter - post 1974.

 

The author’s then presume that which is yet to be proven “Despite Srila Prabhupada's final and conclusive statements regarding Srila Sridhara Maharaja” but where are these final and conclusive statements other than those statements from 1974 in his letter to Rupanuga?

 

So what the authors of “Our Affectionate Guardians” have done here is they have tried to establish a scenario of contradictions. They have tried to establish in the reader's mind that Srila Prabhupada gave some instructions to his disciples to take guidance from Sridhar Maharaj and that this contradicts Srila Prabhupada statements made in 1974 and thus we must look at those statements made in 1974 in some other light, other than in the direct perception.

 

I find this highly misleading and will present evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s disciples which support those statements to Rupanuga in 1974 and give some background information as to why Srila Prabhupada made those statements. (As follows)

 

 

….. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broadcast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them…….

 

 

Now some people may wonder what is the background to the statements by Shrila Prabhupada to Rupanuga. This is also something the authors have tried to establish in their paper “Our Affectionate Guardians.”

I shall now present the rather passionate testimony of Narah Narayan Das which will help the reader to understand just what was going on in 1972-1974.

 

 

“Before joining Iskcon in the fall of 1968, I had been taking darshan of a Bengali Fakir named Ashok Fakir. He claimed to present the mood and philosophy of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, but was actually a worshipper of Rama Krishna and Goddess Kali. He had acquired a few mystic Siddhis, and would lead kirtans and dance very artistically while chanting with his troop of "Baulas" of San Francisco. (His ashram was also in San Francisco, the city where we all lived). So, we gathered with instruments in front of the Rathayatra cars, and listened with great admiration at the astonishing expertise of his mridanga players and "professional" styled chanters. Ashok Fakir seemed to become overwhelmed by ecstasy, and danced and chanted in his flowing saffron robes in front of the Ratha Cars for the whole duration of the procession. (Srila Prabhupada was slowly recovering from His heart attack either in India, or in Montreal, and was therefore absent)

A good time was had by all............until the next day, when I saw to my horror that the San Francisco Chronicle ran a front page story on Rathayatra with huge photo showing Ashok Fakir dancing artistically in front of the Carts, with the Rathas behind him. (The photo seemed to show that the whole festival was about him.) then........I recoiled in complete disgust when I read the article!........ASHOK FAKIR MADE BROAD AND COMPELLING STATEMENTS AS TO HOW THIS WAS ACTUALLY HIS FESTIVAL, AND THAT THE ISKCON DEVOTEES PRESENT WERE HIS OWN DISCIPLES! What a cheater! (It seemed impossible that two days before that I had contemplated taking initiation from him! It made me want to spit!)

This was too much for my Puritan blood!.........I stormed into his ashram with the article in my hand and demanded an explanation as to how and why a "SADHU" could be such a cheater as to claim another guru's festival and disciples to be his own! Ashok laughed, and tried to placate me with assurances that "all gurus are one" and that there could therefore be no offense. I did not buy that at all, and begged him for his blessings for me to go and take shelter of the Iskcon temple. He graciously gave his blessings, (although I was one of his chief recruiters of followers for him) and I Joined Iskcon and took initiation from Srila Prabhupada who I could then see shone as a brilliant luminary and Spiritual Source in contrast to this useless, sahajiah, Ashok Fakir!

 

So, after joining Iskcon, I was not surprised that I was asked by Srila Prabhupada to build the Rathayatra Car for the 1969 Festival, and then three enormous rathas (with 7 foot tall solid wood wheels) for the 1970 Rathayatra festival, and I admit to taking a very personal satisfaction in building all those Ratha Carts as a penance for having taken part in Ashok Fakir's cheating deception of 1968. From that time on, my life has been consumed with the service of Lord Jaganatha, resulting in Srila Prabhupada awarding me the title "Vishwakarma" in 1969, and myself and my family carving a large number of sets of Jaganatha deities in many Iskcon temples. I went to London, and built the Rathayatra Carts there for the 1971 festival, and then arrived in India via Nairobi and Mombassa where I worked on presenting two huge Indian/African mixed Kirtan and Prasadam festivals presided over by Srila Prabhupada.

 

In 1972, I presided over construction of the Festival Site of Srila Prabhupada's first Mayapur festival (it's thirtieth anniversary will be celebrated this year) and commissioned the famous blue and white sign showing the proposed Mayapur Temple, and the fateful words, "His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada", that was the stimulus that caused Narayan Maharaja to organize a boycott of the festival which Sridhara Maharaja had also been browbeaten by him into not attending as well.

 

In 1974, the incident in question took place:

Word went around the several hundred devotees gathered at our site in Mayapur that Sridhara Maharaja had invited us all to come to visit his ashram. We were very exited!......After the boycott by Sridhara and fifty of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers and their disciples in Nabadwip in 1972, it seemed that finally the ice was melting and that a genuine healing was to take place! We all flocked eagerly onto the famous Mayapur wooden taxi-boats wearing our very best, and "set sail" for the ashram of Sridhara Maharaja! When we arrived, we kept waiting to see Srila Prabhupada being greeted by Sridhara Maharaja, and all of us dancing and chanting together. Finally it was clear that Srila Prabhupada not only wasn't coming, but that He HAD NOT EVEN BEEN INVITED BY SRIDHARA MAHARAJA! We were not very advanced devotees, but it seem that things were a bit strange.

 

Sridhara had (at that time) around 8 disciples, and he had hired cooks to make some sort of blackish bitter tasting potato and vegetable subji cooked in oil. His pandal was made of ragged burlap, and he had an elevated seating place where he addressed the crowd in Bengali. He spoke for about two hours in Bengali as we politely listened attentively, although none of us spoke that tongue. Afterward, his disciples came at us with very meaningful look in their eyes, and asked us to dance and chant with them. We were used to the spontaneous dancing and chanting taught to us by Srila Prabhupada, and it seemed weird and a bit forced, particularly as Sridhara Maharaja's disciples danced in a very erratic and almost violent style and chanted without much beauty as we were accustomed. After taking prasad, we went home by boat completely "weirded out" and not at all pleased with our visit.

 

THE NEXT DAY ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!

 

Someone had brought Srila Prabhupada the local paper from Krishnagar!.....There was no mention of Srila Prabhupada or HIS MAYAPUR FESTIVAL! Instead, the whole article was about Sridhara Maharaja who apparently had arranged our "visit" with a press conference, where he announced to the reporters that "THE WESTERN DEVOTEES WERE HIS DISCIPLES WHO HAD COME FROM AMERICA TO HAVE DARSHAN OF HIM!" HE ALSO CLAIMED THAT HE AND HE ALONE HAD FULFILLED THE PROPHESY OF THAKUR BHAKTIVINODE IN WHICH HE HAD CRIED OUT" WHEN WILL THE FAIR SKINNED DEVOTEES FROM THEIR SIDE DANCE IN HOLY ECSTASY WITH THE BENGALI DEVOTEES"?...(This explained why his disciples had insisted that we "dance" with them in front of the reporters!)

NEEDLESS TO SAY, I WAS WAS IMMEDIATELY THRUST BACK TO SIX YEARS BEFORE IN 1968 WHERE I PUBLICLY DENOUNCED ASHOK FAKIR FOR THIS VERY SAME CHEATING TRICK!

 

Now, it all made sense! the invitation (WITHOUT INVITING OUR SPIRITUAL MASTER, SRILA PRABHUPADA), the very long lecture IN BENGALI that HE KNEW that we did not understand, and then the "forced" dancing with his disciples!

The horrible "karmi cooked" foodstuffs were just a bait to get us to come.

THEN SRIDHARA MAHARAJA ADDED INSULT TO INJURY! (In a style reminiscent of Sisupala) .......HE SENT SRILA PRABHUPADA A BILL, DEMANDING THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA PAY FOR THE FOODSTUFFS WE HAD EATEN AT SRIDHARA MAHARAJA'S ASHRAM!

 

Srila Prabhupada was not pleased!

He made a general announcement that none of His disciples should visit Sridhara maharaja or visit his ashrama ever again.

(This point is generally ignored by those who try to "sell" the idea that Srila Prahupada relied heavily on Sridhara Maharaja for spiritual guidance and other similar absurd claims).

 

IT IS A SIMPLE FACT THAT SRILA PRABHUPADA'S GODBROTHERS BETRAYED HIM, TRIED TO CHEAT HIM, DEFAMED HIM, BOYCOTTED HIM, PLOTTED AGAINST HIM WITHOUT CEASE.

 

Fifty Gaudiya Matha Sanyasis showed up at Mayapur in 1972. Neither Narayan Maharaja who falsely claims that Srila Prabhupada is his "siksa guru" showed up, nor did Sridhara Maharaja show up. Not only did they not show up, but they organized a boycott and tried to prevent ANY AND ALL GAUDIYA MATHA MEMBERS FROM OFFERING THEIR RESPECTS TO SRILA PRABHUPADA AS HE LAID THE CORNERSTONE FOR THE MAYAPUR TEMPLE!

[.........]

 

Dhananjaya prabhu confirms the above incident in a more concise and less passionate manner as follows:

 

 

Through Jayapataka Maharaj we had all been invited to Sridhar Maharaj's Math in Navadwip, where a big program was arranged with talks by Prabhupada's godbrother Sridhar Maharaja and other Gaudiya Math sannyasi godbrothers, as well as prasadam. We were there for a few hours and then returned. Prabhupada was waiting at the gate. He said to Jayapataka Maharaj, "Where have you all been?" Jayapataka Maharaj said, "We went over to Sridhar Maharaj's Math for a program." Prabhupada said, "You didn't invite me?"

No one had informed Prabhupada about this program. Prabhupada was upset. He called Jayapataka Maharaj up to his room and told him, "This is not right. All the local Bengalis in Navadwip think that you foreigners have come due to the preaching effort of Sridhar Maharaj, but he never preached in the West. I preached in the West.

All of you have come because of me, but he is getting the publicity." He said, "You have to be very careful in your dealings with my godbrothers. They will take advantage. They will take all the credit, but they don't deserve that credit."

 

 

In conclusion without any direct evidence from Srila Prabhupada that he wanted his disciples to take instructions from Sridhar Maharaj and with the supporting testimonies of Nara Narayan and Dananjaya prabhus we have to conclude that Srila Prabhupada’s statements to Rupanuga in 1974 should be taken at face value.

[Sridas]

 

 

 

 

What those great mesiahs have forged together through the Grace of Guru Gauranga and the love and respect they have for each other will live on in eternity far from the misconceptions of worldly vision.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Very good posting Bhakta Harry! Very good indeed! I very much enjoyed reading this posting of yours - you've taken a very proper approach to this issue in your posting!

 

[Sridas]

 

Please prove these statement that you have in quotation marks by supplying verifiable references.

[Bhakta Harry]

Sridas prabhu;

Thank you to giving me the opportunity to debunk the various specious arguments presented by some of the followers of H.H. BR Sridhar Maharaj.

 

 

You ask,

"Who and where are we to pass judgement and criticise those who have sacrificed their whole life for the benefit of all suffering conditioned souls."

 

But you yourself have done the same thing and the website you linked to also passes the same judgement on Srila Prabhupada statements in 1974. In fact you yourself even had the audacity to say that there was something contradictory about these statements by Srila Prabhupada. "It appears somewhat contradictary if this is truly the statement of Srila Prabhupada." If this is not an example of passing judgment and criticising. I don't know what is.

 

 

You ask;

"Why do you think so many of Srila ACBS Prabhupads disciples and siksas (approximately 22 sanyasis) came to Srila Sridhara Maharaj to start with and stayed with him, if they weren’t advised from Prabhupad himself to take his dharsan…. ? "

 

Just because a certain number of Shrila Prabhupada's disciples went to HH Sridhar Maharaj's mutt does not prove that they were authorised to do so by Srila Prabhupada. For example the same disciples told us in 1978 that Srila Prabhupada had authorised only eleven selected chosen disciples to be initiating gurus within ISKCON. However by 1986 they had then declared that this was all lies and that actually Srila Prabhupada wanted more than just eleventh of these choosen disciples to be initiating gurus. So as I pointed out in my previous post unless it is in writing or recorded on tape by Srila Prabhupada it is not really direct evidence and can only be considered as supporting evidence to any point which is being made.

 

 

You state;

"Prabhupads Sanyas Guru was given Sanyas by Srila Sridhara Maharaj. Doesn’t it make sense that Prabhupad trusted the person that trusted Srila Sridhara Maharaj to receive sanyas from, and if SSM wasn’t bona fide then neither was Sripad Kesava Maharaj and hence he would have been initiated into sanyas from a less than uttama bhakta or are you missing something?"

No, where does Srila Prabhupada state that the giver of sannyasa (Sannyasa guru) has to be an "uttama bhakta"? This is your invention and as such it is reprehensible.

 

 

You state;

"But we accept that they were all siddha parush."

 

siddha-purusa--liberated persons [CC ML TEXT 162-163]

This method is applicable both in the stage of sadhana [spiritual practices executed while in the stage of bondage] and in the stage of sadhya [God realization], when one is a siddha-purusa, or a spiritually perfect soul."[NOI 8]

 

I find that your above statement is highly doubtful. If your statement was true then why would Srila Prabhupada, our ever well-wisher, advise his beloved disciples to avoid these persons (his godbrothers), not to mix with with them etc.

"We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them." [sPL Rupanauga 28.4.74]

 

 

You state;

"It’s a known fact that Prabhupad first approached Srila Sridhara Maharaj for Sanyas but Guru Maharaj didn’t wish to disturb Prahupads family as he was very close to them, so he then suggested taking from Goswami Maharaj."

 

You claim that Sridhar Maharaj was very close to Srila Prabhupada family - not just close - but "very close to"! Approximately how many times did HH Sridhara Maharaj actually meet the members of Srila Prabhupada's family and was he meeting them on a daily basis or are you trying to create another illusion adding to the web of illusion which you have been spinning us so far?

 

 

You state;

"Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupad wasn't present in this particular assembly."

 

How do you know this? Who are you to judge? He may not have been there in the flesh and blood but that does not mean to say that he was not present and that his presence was not perceived by the speaker.

 

 

You state;

"It only proves nothing if you don't accept the authority of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur."

 

Just because I challenge your interpretation of what Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati has said does not mean that I do not accept the authority of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati and suggesting such merely proves my point that you take every opportunity to mislead the reader.

 

 

You state;

"Actually I'm not trying to be offensive I'm simply endeavouring to protect you from committing spiritual suicide further than you already have, for the benefit of those who come here to receive some spiritual sustenance and nourishment through Hari katha, instead of common devotees accounts of Pure devotees characters."

 

Because I challenge your erroneous conclusions you conclude that I am an offender and that I am committing spiritual suicide this is the sum and substance of your presentation. Your mentality is very similar to that of certain Christian cults who insist that if one does not accept Jesus Christ as the Lord and Saviour then one is doomed to hell and in hell it is very, very hot, full of suffering and misery. In other words they cannot discuss sidhanta in a logical and rational basis and instead attempt to instill fear for any alleged offences. The main offence - being that of disagreeing with what they have declared to be the truth. It is evident that you have not made any more advancement than the members of these Christian cults because you have the same mundane mentality. The statements which I have posted about HH Sridhar Maharaj and his godbrothers are not my statements they are Srila Prabhupada statements and if you think he is a just another common devotee then your problem is much worse than I had initially thought.

[theist]

Sridas, please excuse me for offering advice unsolicted but the you have given proper instructions on aparada and if he chooses to ignore them, well that is his right, but you must save yourself by disengaging.