What are the qualities of a guru you can trust?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Srila Prabhupada speaks to Sridhar Maharaja--March 1977

 

(BENGALI CONVERSATION, TRANSLATED INTO ENGLISH BY BHAKTI CARU SWAMI)

 

Srila Prabhupada: I very much want, Maharaja, that you come and stay at Mayapura. Because Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur] always desired that you preach. He told me quite a few times, "Why don't you pull him out?" [They both laugh.] You know, I also tried to some extent before, but somehow or other it did not work out. Now, why don't you come and stay at Mayapura?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: At last Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur] told me: "You are an ease-lover. [Laughter] The qualifications - that you have."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's true. He told me also, "He is such a qualified person. Sridhara Maharaja is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapura, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? What is your objection to staying in Mayapura? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me, so both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here [to this Navadwipa math].

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupada's desire.

 

Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. And if you stay there, then it will be very helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one with whom I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

 

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapura, then all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's right.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. Jayapataka Maharaja is telling me that he will build a house for me. So both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am just traveling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So Maharaja, please-give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Well, I'll think it over and let you know.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Let me make that arrangement, Maharaja. That planetarium [the "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money-the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world. Indian culture and varnasrama. Prabhupada's desire was to establish the varnasrama-dharma. So we have to do that: we have to establish our Varnasrama College. Let the people from all over the world come and learn about varnasrama.

 

Some points to consider regarding the validity of this post.

1) It is not on the vedabase, so there are immediate doubts as to the value of this conversation.

2) It was spoken in Bengali. Thus we are depending on a translation by HH Bhakti Caru Swami who is not a very reliable translator as the following explains.

 

 

Bhakti Caru Swami Caught Cheating (IRM Newsletter 20)

 

One of the key points that we quote in the Final Order to show that any Diksa Gurus in ISKCON would have had to been specifically authorised by Srila Prabhupada, is the following verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

The key part of this quotation is the 'authorised by his predecessor spiritual master' , since this smashes their current bogus Guru program as it requires them to show specific authorisation from Srila Prabhupada.

They cannot palm us off with some vague notion that it is 'automatic', or that it is a 'timeless order' or that it is 'tradition' or any other such nonsense. They need to show authorisation from Srila Prabhupada directly.

 

And as we have shown repeatedly they cannot do so. So hard-pressed are they to do this, that after 23 years they still can only trot out the same 'appointment tape' with its 5 different transcripts and 4 different official GBC interpretations - which have been used to justify different guru systems by the GBC. So what to do? Simple. Get rid of this troublesome quote.

 

And that is exactly what Bhakti Caru Swami has done in his Bengali translation of the Srimad Bhagavatam. As the official BBT Bengali translator for the Bhagavatam, he has translated the above as:

 

"Manuser Kartabbo hoche guruparampara dharay sadguru kach theke diksa Grahan kara. Eka bale diksa-bidhan".

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

Yes, he has simply removed the troublesome phrase - the literary equivalent of 'splicing'. This proves two things:

 

1. That the above quote does deliver a death-blow to the current ISKCON Guru system just as 'The Final Order' claims. Otherwise why take it out?

2. That Bhakti-Caru Maharaja, who of course is one the current illegitimate Diksa Gurus in ISKCON, has shamefacedly engaged in this blatant cheating to try and save his Guruship. He has desecrated the teachings of Srila Prabhupada simply to keep his Guru ambitions afloat.

 

Never mind being a sannyasi and a Guru. Such an example of blatant dishonesty does not even qualify him to be a Brahmin. Do these people have no shame? Having realised that the game is up they can only resort to the last refuge - cheating - to try and prop up their bogus temporary occupation of Srila Prabhupada's seat.

3) The poster of this conversation has given it the title "Prabhupada Said Srila Sridhar Maharaj Should Give Guidance To His Disciples." However when we read the conversation we see no such thing. What it actualy says is, "so if you are there, then they can get some guidance." So it is clearly not the same. The poster has obvious difficulties with his reading of the English language. Or the poster is also pushing an agenda and is unable to present the facts in a straightforward manner.

It is thus safe to conclude this is another phony propaganda effort from the Sridarittes. Who seem to think it is essential to propagate that HH BR Sridar Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada were always boosom buddies. Irrespective of the truth.

[Guest guest]

Go to vaisnava . com

 

Look for the link "Additional Recordings"

 

click it

 

Download the talk between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Guru Maharaj

 

Listen to it

 

Beg forgiveness for the fact that you have been blashpeming a pure devotee, Srila Sridhar Maharaj

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Go to vaisnava . com

 

Look for the link "Additional Recordings"

 

click it

 

Done that & this is what i get .....

<CENTER>

<CENTER>Kirtans, bhajans and prayers sung by various senior devotees</CENTER>

‘Kirtana’ or ‘bhajana’?

In the 1995 Jagannath Rathayatra issue of the Sri Gaudiya Darshan magazine (page 20), Srila Govinda Maharaja explains that the term ‘kirtana’ refers to all congregational chanting, while ‘bhajana’ refers to one’s personal cultivation of Krishna Consciousness. Of course, by implication ‘kirtana’ is also a at the same time a kind of ‘bhajana’ for the Gaudiya Vaishnava devotees...

Sripad Akincan Krishnadas Babaji Maharaj: Sri Premadhama Deva Stotram and the Mahamantra

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Mahamantra, Premadhama Deva Stotram and Saranagati

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers and Sri Nama

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Introduction to Saranagati, Mahamantra and Sri Prema Dhama Stotram

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

Prayers (II)

(Only available in reduced quality MP3 format - 16:09min - 0.73mb)

 

 

</CENTER>

<CENTER> </CENTER>

Download the talk between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Guru Maharaj

Listen to it

 

I would if it was there & if it was in English. The conversation quoted in a previous post by another anon guest was spoken in Bengali & translated by HHBCS.

 

 

Beg forgiveness for the fact that you have been blashpeming a pure devotee, Srila Sridhar Maharaj

 

I certainly would beg forgiveness if i had been doing as you claim. I'm sure you must be refering to someone else here.

[Guest guest]

In this letter Prabhupada wrote a letter to Satsvarupa Maharaja he says that by seeing how the disciples of Sridhar Swami performing Vyasa Puja celebration, the ISKCON devotees could learn how to celebrate Vyasa Puja:

 

“Yesterday, we have all come to Navadvipa-dhama. This place is an establishment of one of my godbrothers. It is a very nice and extensive place, and my godbrother B. R. Sridhara Maharaja has spared one entire house for our stay. He has also agreed to cooperate with our society. We shall observe his birthday celebration, and the brahmacaris shall learn how to celebrate the spiritual master's birthday.” (SP Ltr. Satsvarupa, Oct. 26, 1967)

 

Prabhupada brought some brahmacaris to the temple to show them how to perform the Vyasa Puja celebration. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is a real Guru and hundreds of people came to Sridhar Swami's temple offering homage to him on his Vyasa Puja day. Among those who offered respects that day was Srila Prabhupada. And the ISKCON devotees - at that time they didn't even know how to celebrate Vyasa Puja.

[Guest guest]

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great devotee, an uttama adhikari Vaisnava who descended to this world from Goloka.

 

But he is not authorized to give a certificate of approval to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, approving or disapproving of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's ability to be an Acharyya.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja became an initiating Guru 25 years before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America, and he initiated hundreds, maybe thousands of devotees before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to the USA.

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's success in converting Americans into devotees of Sri Krishna was a great achievement. But Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was not in a position to give a Guru Certification Certificate to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Indeed Srila Sridhar Maharaja was an intimate, direct associate of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, and Srila Sridhar Maharaja derives his authority to initiate disciples directly from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who said:

 

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

 

Or in other words, "tell everyone about Krishna and deliver the people of this land (Bharata-desa), and by my command become a Guru".

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami factually accepted Srila Sridhar Maharaja as a genuine Guru and told people to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaja to get diksa (initiation). He sent his own sister, Pishima, to get diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Pishima had received Harinama from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura but then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told Pishima to take gayatri diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This happened.

 

Nothing that any Americans say, nothing they say "Prabhupada says", will change the real and eternal Truth.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

In this letter Prabhupada wrote a letter to Satsvarupa Maharaja he says that by seeing how the disciples of Sridhar Swami performing Vyasa Puja celebration, the ISKCON devotees could learn how to celebrate Vyasa Puja:

 

“Yesterday, we have all come to Navadvipa-dhama. This place is an establishment of one of my godbrothers. It is a very nice and extensive place, and my godbrother B. R. Sridhara Maharaja has spared one entire house for our stay. He has also agreed to cooperate with our society. We shall observe his birthday celebration, and the brahmacaris shall learn how to celebrate the spiritual master's birthday.” (SP Ltr. Satsvarupa, Oct. 26, 1967)

 

What is interesting about the above quote is "He has also agreed to cooperate with our society." Is there any evidence to suggest that maharaja's cooperation actualy materialised?

 

Letter to: Jayapataka,71-02-23

So far until now my Godbrothers have regularly not cooperated with me and by the grace of my Spiritual Master, things are still going ahead.

I am doing so many things which sometimes my Godbrothers out of envy criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, then simply criticize “How he is acting.’’ Find out some fault.[720504RC.MEX]

 

Even in the spiritual field, my godbrothers are envious. You see? So as soon as you become successful, there will be many enemies. That is natural. That is the sign of success. [731103RC.DEL]

 

Just like all my godbrothers. They are dead men. And therefore they are envious of my activities. They have no life. If you want to make easy-going life, showing the Deity and then sleep, then it is a failure movement. [740713MW.LA]

 

 

Prabhupada brought some brahmacaris to the temple to show them how to perform the Vyasa Puja celebration. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is a real Guru

 

I guess you mean diksha guru. Aside from the qualification, Srila Prabhupada also taught that specific authorisation from the predecessor acarya was also essential before anyone could act as a diksa guru:

 

"On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krsna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities."

(SP Letter to Janardana, 26/4/68)

 

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa -vidhana."

(S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

 

However Srila Prabhupada says that his godbrothers never received any authorization at the time of HDGBS passing, neither were they qualified at any time.

 

“In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. [...] Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen some one who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body.He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mis sion. [...] So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorisedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure.[....] Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them."

(Srila Prabhupada Letter, 28th April, 1974)

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a great devotee, an uttama adhikari Vaisnava who descended to this world from Goloka.

 

But he is not authorized to give a certificate of approval to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, approving or disapproving of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's ability to be an Acharyya.

 

How do you know this?

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja became an initiating Guru 25 years before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to America, and he initiated hundreds, maybe thousands of devotees before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami went to the USA.

 

Was he qualified & authorized to do so?

 

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's success in converting Americans into devotees of Sri Krishna was a great achievement. But Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami was not in a position to give a Guru Certification Certificate to Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Indeed Srila Sridhar Maharaja was an intimate, direct associate of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, and Srila Sridhar Maharaja derives his authority to initiate disciples directly from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

Can you tell us when, how and where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura authorized H.H.Sridhar Maharaja to initiate disciples? As you claim.

 

 

and from Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, who said:

 

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa

 

Or in other words, "tell everyone about Krishna and deliver the people of this land (Bharata-desa), and by my command become a Guru".

 

However, the type of guru, which Lord Caitanya is encouraging everyone to become, is clearly established in the detailed purports given by Srila Prabhupada following this verse:

 

"That is, one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam."

(C.c. Madhya, 7.128, purport)

 

"One may remain a householder, medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn't matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam [...] It is best not to accept any disciples."

(C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport)

 

We can see that these instructions do not demand that the gurus in question first attain any particular level of realisation before they act. The request is immediate. From this it is clear everyone is simply encouraged to preach what they may know, and in so doing become siksa, or instructing, gurus. This is further clarified by the stipulation for the siksa guru to remain in that position, and not then go on to become a diksa guru:

 

"It is best not to accept any disciples." (C.c. Madhya, 7.130, purport)

 

To accept disciples is the main business of a diksa guru, whereas a siksa guru simply needs to carry on his duties and preach Krsna Consciousness as best he can. It is clear from Srila Prabhupada's purports that in the above verse Lord Caitanya is actually authorising siksa gurus, not diksa gurus.

 

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami factually accepted Srila Sridhar Maharaja as a genuine Guru and told people to go to Srila Sridhar Maharaja to get diksa (initiation).

 

Can you name one such person?

 

 

He sent his own sister, Pishima, to get diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Pishima had received Harinama from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura but then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told Pishima to take gayatri diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This happened.

 

Can you provide any proof of this?

 

 

Nothing that any Americans say, nothing they say "Prabhupada says", will change the real and eternal Truth.

 

Your above statement stinks of racism. Did you also learn this from H.H. BR Sridhara Maharaja?

[Guest guest]

Bhaktin Harry must be a devotee of the ritivk sampradaya.

 

Will you stay a bhakta forever, or do you have a plan to take initiation from a genuine Guru?

[Guest guest]

They eventually claim to have taken initiation from Srila Prabhupada. How they do that in his absence and claim it is authentic is just a mystery.

 

 

Bhaktin Harry must be a devotee of the ritivk sampradaya.

 

Will you stay a bhakta forever, or do you have a plan to take initiation from a genuine Guru?

[Avasa]

The Guru one gets is the one that one is worthy of.

If the Guru manifests certain attributes that do or do not go along with what the disciple expects then they are a reflection of where the disciple is and is not clear in his or her seeing.

The Guru is a mirror.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

They eventually claim to have taken initiation from Srila Prabhupada. How they do that in his absence and claim it is authentic is just a mystery.

 

One needs to distinguish between the principle of initiation and the details of its formalisation. Srila Prabhupada never defined diksa in terms of any ritualistic ceremony, but as the receipt of transcendental knowledge that leads to liberation:

 

 

"In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Visnu. This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness."

(C.c. Madhya, 9.61, purportt)

 

"Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination."

(C.c. Madhya, 4.111, purport )

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa."

(C.c. Madhya, 15.108, purport )

 

Diksa normally involves a ceremony, but it is not absolutely essential, more a formality:

 

 

"So anyway, from 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Maharaja."

(SP Lecture, 10/12/76, Hyderabad )

 

"Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation."

(BTG, Search for the Divine )

 

"...disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion."

(SP Letter to Dinesh, 31/10/69 )

 

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there."

(SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68 )

 

"Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing."

(SP Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh )

 

Thus the ceremonial initiation is a formality performed to solidify in the mind of the disciple the serious commitments he has made to the process of diksa. Such commitments include:

 

• Receiving transcendental knowledge which will purify him of all contamination.

• Maintaining the determination to always follow the order of the diksa guru.

• To begin enthusiastically executing the spiritual master's orders.

 

Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that the formality of the ceremony is just that, a formality, not an essential. Furthermore, this formalisation of initiation through a ceremony, itself involves a number of elements:

 

1.Recommendation by an official of the institution, usually the Temple President.

2.Acceptance by acting ritvik.

3.The participation in a fire yajna.

4.The taking of a spiritual name.

 

It is only points two and four which necessarily involves a ritvik priest. The other two are usually carried out by the Temple President or some other qualified brahman.

 

As mentioned previously, nowhere is it ever stated that the guru and disciple must co-exist on the same planet in order for the disciple to receive any element of diksa, such as transcendental knowledge, annihilation of sinful reactions, a fire yajna ceremony and a spiritual name. On the other hand, every element of diksa (knowledge transmission, the yajna, etc.), can be given quite easily without the guru's physical presence. This was demonstrated practically by Srila Prabhupada, as he gave all the elements of diksa through intermediaries such as his disciples and books.

 

It is the authentic process because it was authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

This ritvik-vada is a concocted system of belief that is different from the belief-system taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

You falsely imagine you have been receiving transcendental knowledge from Prabhupada. All you have really got is a mirror image - the things you think are back the front. You think that by abusing Vaishnavas you have never met, and who Srila Prabhupada said are "pure devotees", you are expressing your great depth of transcendental knowledge but you are simply a fallen soul lost in tamo-guna. Get a life. Get a real spiritual life. Find a real connection with a real Guru.

[Guest guest]

Does that mean I can accept Sandipani muni as my spiritual master because I try to follow his teachings though I cannot formally take diksa? So I can then call Krishna my god brother?

 

 

One needs to distinguish between the principle of initiation and the details of its formalisation. Srila Prabhupada never defined diksa in terms of any ritualistic ceremony, but as the receipt of transcendental knowledge that leads to liberation:

 

Diksa normally involves a ceremony, but it is not absolutely essential, more a formality:

 

Thus the ceremonial initiation is a formality performed to solidify in the mind of the disciple the serious commitments he has made to the process of diksa. Such commitments include:

 

• Receiving transcendental knowledge which will purify him of all contamination.

• Maintaining the determination to always follow the order of the diksa guru.

• To begin enthusiastically executing the spiritual master's orders.

 

Srila Prabhupada has clearly stated that the formality of the ceremony is just that, a formality, not an essential. Furthermore, this formalisation of initiation through a ceremony, itself involves a number of elements:

 

1.Recommendation by an official of the institution, usually the Temple President.

2.Acceptance by acting ritvik.

3.The participation in a fire yajna.

4.The taking of a spiritual name.

 

It is only points two and four which necessarily involves a ritvik priest. The other two are usually carried out by the Temple President or some other qualified brahman.

 

As mentioned previously, nowhere is it ever stated that the guru and disciple must co-exist on the same planet in order for the disciple to receive any element of diksa, such as transcendental knowledge, annihilation of sinful reactions, a fire yajna ceremony and a spiritual name. On the other hand, every element of diksa (knowledge transmission, the yajna, etc.), can be given quite easily without the guru's physical presence. This was demonstrated practically by Srila Prabhupada, as he gave all the elements of diksa through intermediaries such as his disciples and books.

 

It is the authentic process because it was authorized by Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

Couldn't agree more. It's mind boggling how much money and effort these people expend on simply offending Vaisnavas they dont even know (maintaining websites, printing offensive magazines, going to ISKCON festivals and trying to disrupt them) instead of focussing on preaching Krishna's glories. It's really sad.

 

 

This ritvik-vada is a concocted system of belief that is different from the belief-system taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

You falsely imagine you have been receiving transcendental knowledge from Prabhupada. All you have really got is a mirror image - the things you think are back the front. You think that by abusing Vaishnavas you have never met, and who Srila Prabhupada said are "pure devotees", you are expressing your great depth of transcendental knowledge but you are simply a fallen soul lost in tamo-guna. Get a life. Get a real spiritual life. Find a real connection with a real Guru.

[Guest guest]

These deluded souls like to play guru, blurring the path for any sincere seekers of the truth, with their mental speculations, pretending to represent

divinity with no intermediary present to confirm or deny their misconception.

It's a license to do whatever you want in the guise of discipleship, but in reality they are afraid to face the committment to a real guru so they live a make believe imaginary life,taking what siksa suits and disregarding the rest.

 

We can cheat ourselves and others life after life.

 

When we take initiation we are warned by guru of the ten offences to guard against in chanting the holy name.

It pays to regularly revise these instructions or the Name will never become reality.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

This ritvik-vada is a concocted system of belief that is different from the belief-system taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

You falsely imagine you have been receiving transcendental knowledge from Prabhupada. All you have really got is a mirror image - the things you think are back the front. You think that by abusing Vaishnavas you have never met, and who Srila Prabhupada said are "pure devotees", you are expressing your great depth of transcendental knowledge but you are simply a fallen soul lost in tamo-guna. Get a life. Get a real spiritual life. Find a real connection with a real Guru.

 

You are abusing me by claiming that I am abusing Vaishnavas. Of course this is your intentional purpose.

 

• "...the process for initiation to be followed in the future." (July 11th )

 

• "...continue to become ritvik and act on my charge." (July 19th )

 

• "...continue to become ritvik and act on my behalf." (July 31th)

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Does that mean I can accept Sandipani muni as my spiritual master because I try to follow his teachings though I cannot formally take diksa? So I can then call Krishna my god brother?

 

Please enlighten us as to what teachings of Sandapani muni are surviving to this day.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Couldn't agree more. It's mind boggling how much money and effort these people expend on simply offending Vaisnavas they dont even know (maintaining websites, printing offensive magazines, going to ISKCON festivals and trying to disrupt them) instead of focussing on preaching Krishna's glories. It's really sad.

 

What I find sad is the fact that ISKCON are continuously cheating the public by presenting them the following

 

FACT: ISKCON gurus in good standing have fallen.

FACT: The ISKCON GBC has supported even fallen gurus and tried to paper over their falldowns.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have opposed, oppressed and driven out many sincere godbrothers and godsisters.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have usurped and misused money, and diverted other ISKCON resources for their own personal prestige and sense gratification.

FACT: ISKCON gurus have had illicit sexual intercourse with both women and men, and possibly children as well.

FACT: Some ISKCON gurus still in good standing have had such serious personal difficulties that the GBC has been obliged to suspend them from initiating.

FACT: Other ISKCON gurus have snapped back into line only after "narrow misses."

FACT: ISKCON gurus recently led a movement advocating a premature and inappropriate emphasis on rasika-bhakti.

FACT: Some ISKCON devotees have felt obliged to accept a new guru twice or even three times over. [HH Jayadvaita Swami]

 

The plain FACT is - they were not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be initiating gurus.

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[Bhakta Harry]

 

These deluded souls like to play guru, blurring the path for any sincere seekers of the truth, with their mental speculations, pretending to represent divinity

Yes, you are obviously refering to yourself here!

 

with no intermediary present to confirm or deny their misconception.

It's a license to do whatever you want in the guise of discipleship, but in reality they are afraid to face the committment to a real guru so they live a make believe imaginary life,taking what siksa suits and disregarding the rest.

 

Nonsense. If someone does whatever they want, how can it be discipleship?

 

We can cheat ourselves and others life after life.

I guess you know all about that.

 

When we take initiation we are warned by guru of the ten offences to guard against in chanting the holy name.

It pays to regularly revise these instructions or the Name will never become reality.

One of those 10 offences is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master.

Srila Prabhupada ordered ritvik "henceforward" [July 9th 1977]. ISKCON is disobeying, that is why they are in a mess.

[Guest guest]

Srila Sridhara Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada

Room Conversation

 

March 1977

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The central principle of ISKCON philosophy is surrender, otherwise one will not be able to get to know the substance. Whatever you are seeing externally by means of your intelligence -- that is not going to help you to become acquainted with the real substance.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That Dr. Radhakrishnan [author and one-time president of India] was victimized by Western philosophy. He had no real understanding of Indian philosophy.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: No matter; up to whatever extent they go, ultimately they end up becoming the worshiper of the self. They think that they will become God. The geocentric philosophy is not heliocentric. According to Srila Prabhupada [srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura], they are not heliocentric. They are geocentric. Their limit is only up to their senses. Beyond that, they don't have any understanding whatsoever. Ultimately their goal is Brahmaloka. Brahmaloka is the ultimate goal of these people, and beyond that they don't have any knowledge. The para-bhakti on the brahma-bhuta platform-that when one is situated on the Brahman platform, the transcendental platform, there the pure devotional service begins-they don't have any understanding about that.

 

Srila Prabhupada: But that Radhakrishnan-inwardly he was afraid. I used to invite him from time to time. He used to be quite intimate with me. He used to say, "Please pray to God about me."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Where did he say that?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Where he used to stay in Delhi. He once wrote to me also, "After I retire, I shall join your movement."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Sometimes the false prestige spoils everything.

 

Srila Prabhupada: He used to have a lot of respect for me. Once he asked, "Are you writing everything in English?" So I asked him, "What do you do?" and he smiled.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: When he used to teach in Calcutta University, Bon Maharaja used to go to him, and once he took me with him, and before that once he brought him to Prabhupada. So this second time when we went to invite him I went with Bon Maharaja.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Personally he was a fine gentleman. A brahmana, very cultured, but a mayavadi. He is dead now.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, but Rajagopalachari [another Indian political leader/ author] was a Vaisnava.

 

Devotee (to Prabhupada): Your Srila Prabhupada has given you a lot of mercy.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That is all due to your blessings. I do not know for how long I will be able to carry on, so I came to see Sridhara Maharaja.

 

Devotee: If you all go away, then the world will become dark.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja (to Prabhupada): It is so wonderful that the will of the Lord becomes manifest through someone.

 

Srila Prabhupada: I very much want, Maharaja, that you come and stay at Mayapura. Because Prabhupada always desired that you preach. He told me quite a few times, "Why don't you pull him out?" [They both laugh.] You know, I also tried to some extent before, but somehow or other it did not work out. Now, why don't you come and stay at Mayapura?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: At last Prabhupada told me: "You are an ease-lover. [Laughter] The qualifications - that you have."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's true. He told me also, "He is such a qualified person. Sridhara Maharaja is one of the finest preachers." I want to take you everywhere. At least at the place we have in Mayapura, people are coming from all over the world. Why don't you come and stay there? What is your objection to staying in Mayapura? If you just agree, then whatever kind of building you want, I will arrange it for you. They are trying to build a house for me, so both of us will stay there. And whenever you want, you can come here [to his Navadwipa math].

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, as long as I am alive to fulfill Prabhupada's desire.

 

Srila Prabhupada: This is my earnest desire. Since you could not go around the world and preach, at least stay there and people will come to you. I shall make that arrangement. And if you stay there, then it will be very helpful to me also. Sometimes I need to consult with someone but there is no one. There is no one with whom I can consult. I feel this deficiency very greatly.

 

Devotee: If he stays in Mayapura, then all kinds of people will get to hear from him.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that's right.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, people from all kinds of cultural backgrounds will come there.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are already coming. And in that house I will make arrangements for an elevator so that you won't have to go through the difficulty of walking up and down the stairs. You won't even have to move a step yourself. I'll make arrangements for a car and a lift. Jayapataka Maharaja is telling me that he will build a house for me. So both of us will stay in that house. Most of the time I am just traveling around, so if you are there, then they can get some guidance. So Maharaja, please-give me the order and I will make all the arrangements for you.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Well, I'll think it over and let you know.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Let me make that arrangement, Maharaja. That planetarium [the "Temple of Understanding"] also will be built under your direction. My idea is to combine the Indian culture and the American money-the lame man and the blind man policy. I tell them also that this will be very beneficial for the world. Indian culture and varnasrama. Prabhupada's desire was to establish the varnasrama-dharma. So we have to do that: we have to establish our Varnasrama College. Let the people from all over the world come and learn about varnasrama.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The effort that you are making to acquire the land in Mayapura-has that been successful?

 

Srila Prabhupada: No, nothing has happened as yet, but we are buying the land. How far one can hassle with the government-of course they haven't yet said either yes or no. But we are buying the land now. They demand a very exorbitant rate, but what to do? We are buying; wherever someone is selling we are buying. When they see the Americans they want a price four times more, but what to do. I feel, let these poor people also have something. They are stealing, but what to do? I feel, let them also have something. Every month I bring one million rupees to this country and spend it for our development work-about seventy to eighty thousand dollars.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: So this is a big income for Indira Gandhi.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That's what I say. With much difficulty I translate the books at night and they print it and sell it and send seventy, eighty thousand dollars every month to me here. Is India benefiting out of this, or losing out of this? Yet they [the Indian government officials] are accusing them [the American devotees] of being C.I.A. agents. [bhakti Vilasa] Tirtha Maharaja used to say, "The American government has given Swamiji two million dollars." As if the American government could not find anything better to do or any better person to give the money. For making them chant Hare Krsna and dance they would give me two million dollars.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: A man from the Central Intelligence Department took initiation from me. He was asking me [about the American devotees]. I told him, "These are nothing but rumors. I know Swami Maharaja for a long, long time. I know him very well, and his movement is nothing but a purely spiritual movement." Actually, what they are thinking is that previously they [the Westerners] used to send the missionaries, then they used to send the merchants, and then the army used to come and take over. But those days are no more. Though if a net of such a faith of universal religion [as Gaudiya Vaisnavism] could be cast throughout the world, then perhaps that could be actualized in future.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this study has been quite proper. This is what our plan is. I tell them that, "You work in this direction, and in the future everyone will recognize this movement." The American government is already saying that this movement is spreading like an epidemic. (To his disciples:) Who said this?

 

Devotee: One congressman has said that.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who said this?

 

Srila Prabhupada: One American congressman from the Senate said this on the television. "The Hare Krishna Movement is expanding like an epidemic, and if we allow them to go on like this, then one day they will capture the government-within ten years."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: All the governments are becoming alarmed. (Laughter) Even this government, if they [the Western devotees] can conquer the masses and get them to support them.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the fear of everybody.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Ultimately, it may become the "world state" religion.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Automatically it will become so; that is the idea I have.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: America was being accused of trying to make a one-state world so that, "Let there be just one state, and then there won't be any wars. If the whole world is made into one state, then there won't be any wars."

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, I replied to that, "You may make a one-state world. But if you make the populace into dogs, then there won't be any use, they'll just keep barking. You have to make them into human beings."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they'll still go on fighting with each other.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Right, that is their nature to fight. So first of all you have to make them human beings; that is the brahma bhuta prasannatma, sama sarvesu bhutesu.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Then, mad bhakti labhate param.

 

Srila Prabhupada: When they come to that stage, then it will be more useful; otherwise there is no hope. It is not impossible to happen.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, when there is a common center, then everybody can unite. Everybody can be harmonized. But that has to be real. If it is fictitious then there won't be any achievement.

 

Srila Prabhupada: I am hearing that the present American president, President Carter, he has some such plan and he is discussing it with Indira Gandhi. He is consulting with Indira Gandhi quite intimately.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, they are accepting our broad policy. From what I hear from the radio and newspaper, it seems that their policy is becoming much more broader than before.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Besides that, they don't have any other way. Otherwise they cannot achieve what they are actually wanting-the peace through the United Nations; that cannot be achieved.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, nothing less than Krsna consciousness will be able to give them that desired peace; nowhere else will they find it.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, bhoktaram yajna tapasam, sarva loka mahesvaram. So that is what I was telling them, that, "Stop fighting and making all those legal suits; then so nicely the preaching can be done in India in every village, every town." One disadvantage with these people is the language, but still, you must have heard, wherever they are going they are getting a very good reception. My Geetar-gan-first I printed five thousand, then ten thousand, then thirty thousand, but this time we are printing one hundred thousand and they are selling very nicely. In Bengali we are printing various books-Geetar-gan, Bhagavan Ekankatha, Bhagavata Darsan. In Hindi also, we are selling many books, like at Kumbha Mela we sold many, many books.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, this is what Krsna consciousness is, and people will naturally wonder what is there in it that captured the whole world in just ten years.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Now that they are opposing it, this is a great credit.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, that's why the governments are organizing the oppositions.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, they are clearly mentioning that, "If they get a chance to expand unrestrictedly, then in ten years' time they'll capture the governments."

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, if the mass is converted and their votes can be acquired, then the government will be captured.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and these are all young men. The young class of people have accepted it. One scholar, Dr. Stillson Judah, has already predicted that this movement will not be destroyed, because it has entered into the bones and marrows [of Western culture].

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Who is he, where is he from?

 

Srila Prabhupada: He is an American, a professor in the Berkeley University.

[Guest guest]

Just for the record, could somebody advise me how many initiated disciples Srila Prabhupada had? I understand he initiated over 5,000 disciples.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja initiated more than 7,000 disciples.

[Guest guest]

Srila Gaurakisora das babaji had one disciple.

 

It is not the number of disciples you initiate that matters but how pure you are.

[Guest guest]

No offence guest but I think those figures of Srila Prabhupad and Srila Sridhara Maharaj's disciples are a little rubbery, I don't think anyone ever kept an accurate account.

Maybe Srila Prabhupad had that many, maybe more, but Srila Sridhara Maharaj wasn't interested in many disciples even though many approached him, he advised against taking many disciples, focussing on quality not quantity.

Then when Jayatirtha Maharaj brought all his disciples, about 300 to Srila Sridhara Maharaj for a more substantial connection, after becoming disillusioned with Iskcon, SSM wasn't interested at first untill the present acharya and one of his early disciples Srila Bhakti Sundara Govinda Maharaj implored him to take them or they will leave Krsna Consciousness, so Srila Sridhara Maharaj also recalling Srila Prabhupad's request to him saying, "I've brought these rough cut gems to you, now you can polish them?" He relented and started to formally initiate western disciples.

 

But I do believe they both have innumerable siksa students, and continue to this moment to gain new appreciative followers all over the world, we'll probably never know the exact amount.

I do recall Sripad Puri Maharaj bringing 15,000 devotees on Navadwip parikram to Srila Sridhara Maharaj's Math, as he always held SSM in the highest esteem.

[Guest guest]

I believe Srila Syamananda Thakura initiated more disciples than any other Achayya in the history of the Gaudiya Sampradaya.

 

In Orissa, in the 17th century, Syamananda Thakura initiated more than 200,000 disciples.

[Guest guest]

Well, since the Holy Catholic Church owns more property and wealth than any multi-national corporation and is wealthier than any country in the world

 

then I guess that makes them the most bona-fide religion, due to all of their pickins, of excuse me, laxmi scores...um I mean Virgin Mary scores, received when out on scamkirtan.

 

So I guess that makes them the most bonafide religion:

 

CURRENT NUMBER OF RITVIK DISCIPLES

Jesus: Christianity: 1.5 billion disciples

Mohammed: Islam: one billion followers

Brahma/Visnu/Shiva: Hinduism: 800 million

Confucius: Confucianism: 350 million

Buddha: Buddhism: 300 million

Lao Tse, the original hippie: Taoism: 50 million

Izanagi: Shinto: 30 million

Adam and Eve/ Abraham: Judaism: 12 million

Sikhism: 9 million

Jainism: 6 million

Zoroastrianism: 125,000

Plus don't forget: Indigneous religions, Humanitarianism, neo-Indian, shamanism, Anthroposophy, Swedenborgism, Gnosticism, Neoplatism, Scientology, Eckankar, channeling, Wicca, Paganism, occultism, Subud, Freemasonry, Satansism, Huna, Voodoo, Santeria, Sufism, Bhahai, Rosicrucianism, Christian Science, Religious Science, Spiritualism, Theosophy

 

So your gurus had 5,000 and 7,000 disciples in the World Cup of Religions: Congratulations!

 

FINAL SCORE: Christianity wins the year 2006 Religious World Cup. Congratulations, Jesus. Jesus Christ!!!