What are the qualities of a guru you can trust?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

.....Sridhara Maharaj also recalling Srila Prabhupad's request to him saying, "I've brought these rough cut gems to you, now you can polish them?" .........

 

I've looked on the vedabase and was unable to find the quote you have given above. Can you verify that Srila Prabhupada actually said as you claim?

To atribute quotations to someone without verification can lead to accusations of cheating, agenda pushing etc.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Well, since the Holy Catholic Church owns more property and wealth than any multi-national corporation and is wealthier than any country in the world

 

then I guess that makes them the most bona-fide religion, due to all of their pickins, of excuse me, laxmi scores...um I mean Virgin Mary scores, received when out on scamkirtan.

 

So I guess that makes them the most bonafide religion:

 

CURRENT NUMBER OF RITVIK DISCIPLES

Jesus: Christianity: 1.5 billion disciples

Mohammed: Islam: one billion followers

Brahma/Visnu/Shiva: Hinduism: 800 million

Confucius: Confucianism: 350 million

Buddha: Buddhism: 300 million

Lao Tse, the original hippie: Taoism: 50 million

Izanagi: Shinto: 30 million

Adam and Eve/ Abraham: Judaism: 12 million

Sikhism: 9 million

Jainism: 6 million

Zoroastrianism: 125,000

Plus don't forget: Indigneous religions, Humanitarianism, neo-Indian, shamanism, Anthroposophy, Swedenborgism, Gnosticism, Neoplatism, Scientology, Eckankar, channeling, Wicca, Paganism, occultism, Subud, Freemasonry, Satansism, Huna, Voodoo, Santeria, Sufism, Bhahai, Rosicrucianism, Christian Science, Religious Science, Spiritualism, Theosophy

 

So your gurus had 5,000 and 7,000 disciples in the World Cup of Religions: Congratulations!

 

FINAL SCORE: Christianity wins the year 2006 Religious World Cup. Congratulations, Jesus. Jesus Christ!!!

 

Ha; what a clever post!

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja & Srila Prabhupada

Room Conversation

 

March 1977

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: The central principle of ISKCON philosophy is surrender, otherwise one will not be able to get to know the substance. Whatever you are seeing externally by means of your intelligence -- that is not going to help you to become acquainted with the real substance.

 

Srila Prabhupada: That Dr. Radhakrishnan [author and one-time president of India] was victimized by Western philosophy. He had no real understanding of Indian philosophy............

 

I have been unable to find this conversation on the vedabase. Can you give some details for verification?

[Guest guest]

It is in the MP3 audio database of lectures by Srila Sridhar Maharaj produced by Bharati Maharaj in Russia.

 

I have the MP3 on a DVD and I have listened to it a few times. It is on DVD #1.

 

The transcript is from Narasingha Maharaja. He also has the audio file. You can write to him or his disciples if you want to get the MP3.

[Guest guest]

Bhakta Harry,

 

We should all stop wasting time simply finding faults in the instituion and blaming everybody. The general population that is suffering in this materil existence couldn't give a damn what is going on inside an institution such as ISKCON. they're in need of mercy. Rather than waste time fighting, we must maek teh effort to reach out to these fallen souls. In doing so, we receive the mercy as well becasue many of us are fallen too.

 

 

What I find sad is the fact that ISKCON are continuously cheating the public by presenting them the following

 

The plain FACT is - they were not authorized by Srila Prabhupada to be initiating gurus.

<!--EndFragment-->

[Srimanta]

 

Or how do you know which guru to trust or whether to trust any guru? And what if that trust is betrayed in some form later after you've become a disciple? For instance, what if he succumbs to lust, or you find out he's not as perfect as you thought he was?

 

What would you do then? How would you feel?

 

If you are Bull then look for a Guru like Lord Shiva. Otherwise Prabhupada is fine for you

[Sridas]

:namaskar:The latest from St Petersburg.

 

http://www.scsmath.com/

 

While the world fights and argues who's who outside, here is a Spiritual master quietly (sometimes loudly) distributing the Grace of Sri Sri Gaur Nitai to inumerable fortunate souls.

Getting on with the job, fullfilling the wishes of all the vaisnava acharyas. Initiating new devotees on a daily basis into a loving dedicated International family connected to the roots of the Universal Rupanuga Tree of life, and therefore can't but be fruitful with all auspiciousness surrounding it, a divine sankirtan festival continues day after day around such glorious souls, distributing relief into the troubled environment.

This is one of Srila Prabhupads most intimate friends, and we can see how the Grace of Guru and Nitai Gauranga is overflowing with success through this most honorable Vaisnava acharya. All that one is searching for is to be found in the presence of such a surrended kalpa vrksa devotee.

"By their fruits ye shall know them"

 

:namaskar:So the sankirtan party is in full swing and everyone is invited to come and join the dance. Gaura hari bol!!!

 

let's not beat around the bush, wasting our lives in fruitless criticism, fault finding, argument and dry philosophical speculations. Krsna is giving us the choice.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Bhakta Harry,

We should all stop wasting time simply finding faults in the instituion and blaming everybody.

 

Firstly, please note the following statement from Srila Prabhupada in Bhagavad-gita As It Is:

 

 

"According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straightforward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it." (Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 10.4-5, purport)

 

Secondly, please consider the following verse from Sri Isopanisad:

 

 

"Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality." (Sri Isopanisad, Mantra 11)

 

So the full truth, both what is right and what is wrong, must be spoken for everyone's benefit. And finally, consider the following from one of the 80 ISKCON Guru hoaxers he says:

 

 

"As the GBC cannot be expected to take needed action to stop deviations before they become disasters, it seems the only recourse for responsible members of ISKCON is to take the matter to gutter level, i.e. the internet. Painful and undignified as such public laundry-washing may be, it might at least create an awareness of deviations and warn devotees not to get sidelined into weird cults going on in the name of ISKCON." (Bhakti Vikash Swami, 23/03/03, PAMHO Text: 160561)

 

I think the above sums up my position perfectly.

 

 

The general population that is suffering in this materil existence couldn't give a damn what is going on inside an institution such as ISKCON.

 

What the people give a damn about shouldn't interfere with our duty. Srila Prabhupada says:

 

 

"Our business is to point out who is not a saint." (Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk, April 10th, 1974)

 

 

they're in need of mercy. Rather than waste time fighting, we must maek teh effort to reach out to these fallen souls. In doing so, we receive the mercy as well becasue many of us are fallen too.

 

Of course, the GBC side initiated the fighting by expelling and beating any devotee who claimed Srila Prabhupada was his Guru. The objective of reaching out to the fallen souls is to help them become Krishna Conscious, but you cannot be situated in Krishna consciousness without a bona fide Guru. Srila Prabhupada is that Guru. We can only be situated at his lotus feet by following what he says - not concocting our own unauthorised Guru replacement systems - otherwise you would be advocating that we could practise Krishna consciousness by disobeying Srila Prabhupada - which of course would be absurd. How can ISKCON members sing every morning in Guru Puja to Srila Prabhupada that: "My only wish is to have my consciousness purified by the words emanating from his lotus mouth". if we simultaneously think that the orders of the spiritual master are insignificant?

 

The main concern we should have right now is how Srila Prabhupada would react if he heard that people were hijacking his movement, saying he was no longer "living", posing themselves as initiating acaryas and stealing all his disciples? Anyone who really wants the mercy will help Srila Prabhupada to rectify this deviation in his movement.

[Rohit2]

 

I was chanting Narayana from my birth and Lord Chaitannya visited me after my birth and also later. I was looking for Narayana. Sathya Sai Baba (later revealed to me) who came to my work place at Bangalore 10 yrs back and initiated me keeping His identity secret with Hare Krsna mohamantra and told me that I am His Chela. During this initiation I did not asked His identity but He given me hints saying, come to my Ashram at Whitefield though I forgotten. Later many demigods including Krsna, Chaitannya and Narayana gave darshan to me.

So Sathya Sai Baba is prefect spiritual Guru and Narayana Himself. I had seen His subtle Body as Narayana. Sathya Sai Baba's birth name is Sathya Narayana and Sirdi Sai Baba worshiped Narayana to get His blessing and Sirdi Sai entered within the body of Sathya Narayana and became Sathya Sai Baba. Sirdi Sai was Lord Shiva Himself.

So there is no doubt that anybody who worships Sathya Sai Baba will get blessing of Shiva and Narayana both. Sathya Sai Baba is authorized Guru by lord Krsna and every body must get His blessing, if possible initiation of Hare Krsna mohamantra.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

Firstly, If you choose Sathya Sai Baba as your guru that is your choice.

BUT don't make WILD assumptions...

 

Who on earth told you Sai baba is Narayana Himself (apart from himself)

I do not recall any description of KRSNA in any scriptures relating/authorizing himself in any form to Sai Baba.

 

Though, I am glad to hear like you say, you had darshan from Krsna, Chaitannya and Narayana. and you are very lucky as KRSNA is not a demigod but Godhead himself.. count your blessing!

[Guest guest]

That was awesome! And great post too.

 

Bhakta Harry- we just seem to be going in circles, so I'll end this debate with you here. My thoughts reflect exactly what's written in Sridas' post. Everything else is secondary really.

 

 

:namaskar:The latest from St Petersburg.

 

While the world fights and argues who's who outside, here is a Spiritual master quietly (sometimes loudly) distributing the Grace of Sri Sri Gaur Nitai to inumerable fortunate souls.

Getting on with the job, fullfilling the wishes of all the vaisnava acharyas. Initiating new devotees on a daily basis into a loving dedicated International family connected to the roots of the Universal Rupanuga Tree of life, and therefore can't but be fruitful with all auspiciousness surrounding it, a divine sankirtan festival continues day after day around such glorious souls, distributing relief into the troubled environment.

This is one of Srila Prabhupads most intimate friends, and we can see how the Grace of Guru and Nitai Gauranga is overflowing with success through this most honorable Vaisnava acharya. All that one is searching for is to be found in the presence of such a surrended kalpa vrksa devotee.

"By their fruits ye shall know them"

 

:namaskar:So the sankirtan party is in full swing and everyone is invited to come and join the dance. Gaura hari bol!!!

 

let's not beat around the bush, wasting our lives in fruitless criticism, fault finding, argument and dry philosophical speculations. Krsna is giving us the choice.

[Bishadi]

 

The main concern we should have right now is how Srila Prabhupada would react if he heard that people were hijacking his movement, saying he was no longer "living", posing themselves as initiating acaryas and stealing all his disciples? Anyone who really wants the mercy will help Srila Prabhupada to rectify this deviation in his movement.

 

People who speak with no truth do not need to be heard. And his life is based on what he left for us to build from not to be retained as a law but as guidance. His survival is based on what comes from it, not because someone spoke with ill regard.

 

No one single man has deciples as all are theirs and ours for them tomorrow. The longest to survive 'creates' the best foundations to build from even in using the bricks of the fathers.

 

Ask this student as we can teach together the many sermons learned of each from the four corners.

 

 

"Only one who can learn the process of nescience and that of transcendental knowledge side by side can transcend the influence of repeated birth and death and enjoy the full blessings of immortality." (Sri Isopanisad, Mantra 11)

 

And we spent a life time doing it.

 

 

"Our business is to point out who is not a saint." (Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk, April 10th, 1974)

 

 

Please... do this for me. Test me as I need to know!!!

[Guest guest]

"For when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharya deva, we speeak of soemthing that is of universal application.

 

"THERE IS ONLY ONE GURU, WHO APPEARS IN AN INFINITY OF FORMS to teach you, me, and all others..." -- Abhay Charan De (Srila Prabhupada)

 

 

So no worries, mates. Krsna above us, Krsna below us. Krsna to the left of us, Krsna to the right of us. Krsna in everything, Krsna everywhere. Krsna* doing everything: creating, maintaining, destroying. Arranging everything, nothing happens without His sanction. [*Or whatever name of the Divine resonates the most for you.]

 

So you pick a guru and maybe you'll get fried, no worries mate. You get ripped off by guru and cry, no worries mate. Keep on keepin' on. You find good guru and have nice gurubhai, enjoy life again? No worries, mate. Gets all weird and wacky, all bizarro again? No worries mate.

 

Turns from love and peace and HK to guns and guard dogs and shallow graves? No worries, mate. Just "do the needful": prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, then keep on moving', keep on truckin', and know that Maha Vishwa Guru is testing you in Academy, watching over you and all.

 

In the Chinese version of this parable we are in called life, the protagonist said, "Is that so?" at every twist and turn in the game.

 

 

 

I pray that whoever needs and wants external form of guru gets a nice one. And those who have an axe to grind have their place, for maybe someone else's axe is dull: their discriminating principle. And for those with no axe to grind, as their vel of illumination is already sharpened, then let them tread the yoga pada path to their heart's content, chanting:

 

Krsna Kesava Krsna Kesava Krsna Kesava Raksa Mam! or whatever mantra rings true for them.

 

 

 

It's all part of our growth, in the Kali Yuga School of Hard Knocks. Expose the bad stuff if that is your thing. Cover your ears and run away or present your counterpoint if that is your inclination. We are the children of nectar and ultimately all will reach the ultimate goal, like in Brhad Bhagavatamrita.

 

Who is a guru you can trust? Guru is one. Keep on moving towards the one.

Sharks die if they don't keep on moving and swimming. So keep on learning and growing, by the grace of Guru, who is one.

 

Skanda Shashti Ki Jaya!

[Guest guest]

 

"For when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharya deva, we speeak of soemthing that is of universal application.

 

"THERE IS ONLY ONE GURU, WHO APPEARS IN AN INFINITY OF FORMS to teach you, me, and all others..." -- Abhay Charan De (Srila Prabhupada)

 

 

So no worries, mates. Krsna above us, Krsna below us. Krsna to the left of us, Krsna to the right of us. Krsna in everything, Krsna everywhere. Krsna* doing everything: creating, maintaining, destroying. Arranging everything, nothing happens without His sanction. [*Or whatever name of the Divine resonates the most for you.]

 

So you pick a guru and maybe you'll get fried, no worries mate. You get ripped off by guru and cry, no worries mate. Keep on keepin' on. You find good guru and have nice gurubhai, enjoy life again? No worries, mate. Gets all weird and wacky, all bizarro again? No worries mate.

 

Turns from love and peace and HK to guns and guard dogs and shallow graves? No worries, mate. Just "do the needful": prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law, then keep on moving', keep on truckin', and know that Maha Vishwa Guru is testing you in Academy, watching over you and all.

 

In the Chinese version of this parable we are in called life, the protagonist said, "Is that so?" at every twist and turn in the game.

 

 

 

I pray that whoever needs and wants external form of guru gets a nice one. And those who have an axe to grind have their place, for maybe someone else's axe is dull: their discriminating principle. And for those with no axe to grind, as their vel of illumination is already sharpened, then let them tread the yoga pada path to their heart's content, chanting:

 

Krsna Kesava Krsna Kesava Krsna Kesava Raksa Mam! or whatever mantra rings true for them.

 

 

 

It's all part of our growth, in the Kali Yuga School of Hard Knocks. Expose the bad stuff if that is your thing. Cover your ears and run away or present your counterpoint if that is your inclination. We are the children of nectar and ultimately all will reach the ultimate goal, like in Brhad Bhagavatamrita.

 

Who is a guru you can trust? Guru is one. Keep on moving towards the one.

Sharks die if they don't keep on moving and swimming. So keep on learning and growing, by the grace of Guru, who is one.

 

Skanda Shashti Ki Jaya!

 

 

Kali Yuga is over ......

 

Rough around the edges but pretty much straight up,

 

"For when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acharya deva, we speeak of soemthing that is of universal application.

 

"THERE IS ONLY ONE GURU, WHO APPEARS IN AN INFINITY OF FORMS to teach you, me, and all others..." -- Abhay Charan De (Srila Prabhupada)

 

 

Who could ask for anything more! The key of this is to know you learn from even the ant! And not just from accepted forms.

 

Is the knowledge correct or is it not? This is where the wisdom of humilty is paramount!

[Guest guest]

<strong>Originally Posted by Radha Damodara dasa</strong>

He sent his own sister, Pishima, to get diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Pishima had received Harinama from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura but then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told Pishima to take gayatri diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This happened.

 

 

Can you provide any proof of this?

 

============

When Pishima came to ask Srila Sridhar Maharaja for gayatri mantra diksa he did not accept her. He told her to go to Bhakti Saranga Goswami instead. At that time Srila Sridhar Maharaja was not accepting many disciples and he was simply worshipping the Deities and doing private bhajan. People may imagine that Srila Sridhar Maharaja wanted to influence or take over ISKCON, but he was never had any sort of materialistic ambition like that.

============

 

 

 

Jayapataka Swami:

 

... when Srila Prabhupada sent me to India in 1970 from Toronto, Canada, after brief stops in Chicago with Bhagavan Goswami and in Los Angeles and in London on the way— when I arrived in Calcutta I only had Acyutananda Swami as association, although there were many other people, but there was no real association. So I remember, the first time he took me, he said that, “You should meet Srila Prabhupada’s sister. She has invited us for prasada.”

 

And we went to her house, and there she showed us the little Deities [belonging to] Srila Prabhupada that she was worshiping. Srila Prabhupada had given his childhood Deities to his younger sister to worship. Now, we don’t worship… I mean to say, we’re not speaking mainly because Srila Prabhupada’s material sister is Pisima. Actually, she is a Godsister. She accepted initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur for the Harinama. I’ll speak about that later. So actually in the real sense, she’s a Godsister.

 

We went to her house and saw the Deity. She was performing the worship very nicely, decorating with flowers. She offered up the prasad to the Deity, and she sat us down to take prasada. And she proceeded to do her best to bust us over our capacity with so many preparations of sukta and sak, vegetables. She knew how to make special mashed potato with mustard oil and fried cakes in pure ghee. And just like one hardly ever even finds in one’s own mother, she served us very nicely with Radha-Govinda’s prasada.

 

So later we found out that she was famous in the whole sampradaya of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur for feeding the sannyasis. In fact, even Sridhara Swami and so many Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada, on different occasions— they all admit that they have taken the prasada prepared by Pisima.

 

She’s known as Madanera Ma because her younger son Madan was dying, and she continuously chanted and simply depended on the Lord, and in this way he was saved. And so she became famous as Madanera Ma. I don’t know the full details of that story, but she’s well known within the Gaudiya Sampradaya at Mayapura.

 

But her one sadness in life was that after becoming married she could not make any other children become full devotees, fully dedicated devotees. Although several of her sons have become life patron members, none of them would fully accept all the Vaisnava principles. This was a source of anxiety to her, and therefore she always wanted to live at the holy dhama.

 

Of course, Srila Prabhupada did not initially want her to, because she was so imposing on wanting to serve him that it became almost an imposition, that he would always say that, “No, you can just stay with your son.” And finally he agreed on her insistence, and she was allowed to stay at Mayapura where she continuously chanted. She would always like to sit on the veranda and hear the kirtan in the temple.

 

I remember from before that she had taken second initiation from Bhakti Saranga Goswami, and always when she was living in Calcutta she used to come out to observe the ceremonies of Bhakti Saranga Goswami, one of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers. <strong>She had only taken the first initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta.</strong> This gave me a good insight in how she simultaneously had her great faith for Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur as well as her mantra guru, seeing him as the representative of Bhaktisiddhanta, and she would always attend these functions with great faith and devotion.

 

-----------------

[Guest guest]

Doesn't this completely defeat the ritvik philosophy? Accoding to them, Srila Prabhupada is the only one qualified to initiate. But he himself sent his sister to Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

 

 

<strong>Originally Posted by Radha Damodara dasa</strong>

He sent his own sister, Pishima, to get diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Pishima had received Harinama from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura but then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami told Pishima to take gayatri diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaja. This happened.

 

 

 

============

When Pishima came to ask Srila Sridhar Maharaja for gayatri mantra diksa he did not accept her. He told her to go to Bhakti Saranga Goswami instead. At that time Srila Sridhar Maharaja was not accepting many disciples and he was simply worshipping the Deities and doing private bhajan. People may imagine that Srila Sridhar Maharaja wanted to influence or take over ISKCON, but he was never had any sort of materialistic ambition like that.

============

 

 

 

Jayapataka Swami:

 

... when Srila Prabhupada sent me to India in 1970 from Toronto, Canada, after brief stops in Chicago with Bhagavan Goswami and in Los Angeles and in London on the way— when I arrived in Calcutta I only had Acyutananda Swami as association, although there were many other people, but there was no real association. So I remember, the first time he took me, he said that, “You should meet Srila Prabhupada’s sister. She has invited us for prasada.”

 

And we went to her house, and there she showed us the little Deities [belonging to] Srila Prabhupada that she was worshiping. Srila Prabhupada had given his childhood Deities to his younger sister to worship. Now, we don’t worship… I mean to say, we’re not speaking mainly because Srila Prabhupada’s material sister is Pisima. Actually, she is a Godsister. She accepted initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur for the Harinama. I’ll speak about that later. So actually in the real sense, she’s a Godsister.

 

We went to her house and saw the Deity. She was performing the worship very nicely, decorating with flowers. She offered up the prasad to the Deity, and she sat us down to take prasada. And she proceeded to do her best to bust us over our capacity with so many preparations of sukta and sak, vegetables. She knew how to make special mashed potato with mustard oil and fried cakes in pure ghee. And just like one hardly ever even finds in one’s own mother, she served us very nicely with Radha-Govinda’s prasada.

 

So later we found out that she was famous in the whole sampradaya of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur for feeding the sannyasis. In fact, even Sridhara Swami and so many Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada, on different occasions— they all admit that they have taken the prasada prepared by Pisima.

 

She’s known as Madanera Ma because her younger son Madan was dying, and she continuously chanted and simply depended on the Lord, and in this way he was saved. And so she became famous as Madanera Ma. I don’t know the full details of that story, but she’s well known within the Gaudiya Sampradaya at Mayapura.

 

But her one sadness in life was that after becoming married she could not make any other children become full devotees, fully dedicated devotees. Although several of her sons have become life patron members, none of them would fully accept all the Vaisnava principles. This was a source of anxiety to her, and therefore she always wanted to live at the holy dhama.

 

Of course, Srila Prabhupada did not initially want her to, because she was so imposing on wanting to serve him that it became almost an imposition, that he would always say that, “No, you can just stay with your son.” And finally he agreed on her insistence, and she was allowed to stay at Mayapura where she continuously chanted. She would always like to sit on the veranda and hear the kirtan in the temple.

 

I remember from before that she had taken second initiation from Bhakti Saranga Goswami, and always when she was living in Calcutta she used to come out to observe the ceremonies of Bhakti Saranga Goswami, one of Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrothers. <strong>She had only taken the first initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta.</strong> This gave me a good insight in how she simultaneously had her great faith for Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur as well as her mantra guru, seeing him as the representative of Bhaktisiddhanta, and she would always attend these functions with great faith and devotion.

 

-----------------

[Guruvani]

 

Doesn't this completely defeat the ritvik philosophy? Accoding to them, Srila Prabhupada is the only one qualified to initiate. But he himself sent his sister to Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

You must be out of the loop.

Sridhar Maharaja himself established a ritvik system in his Math before he departed. Sridhar Maharaj also referred to sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada as "ritviks" in 1986.

[Guest guest]

That ritvik system was mainly implemented in response to many aspirants from around the world who could'nt make it to India to connect directly to Srila Sridhara Maharaj in those last days. Therefore he gave some consession to those in the world field that were recommended by his disciples. He was very frail in those last days, still many were keen to have his connection, but they could'nt meet him personally nor could he travel at 90 years old to the west, so Srila Govinda Maharaj was begging him to give his graceful connection thru his representitives, also there were Prabhupad disciples starting to take there own disciples everywhere, who weren't fully qualified.

 

Eventually everything was turned over to Srila Govinda Maharaj as Srila Guru Maharaj was showing signs of withdrawal and that's the way it has been ever since. I too was instrumental in this system for a while helping to connect others in emergency mode.

Still I am glad personally I took 1st and 2nd initiation direct from Srila Guru Maharaj, as this whole ritvic controversy can confuse those connected through a representitive of the Guru, due to that Iskcon division. It served a purpose for time and circumstance, but i have my reservations if the spiritual master is not still on the planet.

Still the point is that he was present and accepted those disciples in his name and line, even chanting on their beads.

[Guruvani]

 

That ritvik system was mainly implemented in response to many aspirants from around the world who could'nt make it to India to connect directly to Srila Sridhara Maharaj in those last days. Therefore he gave some consession to those in the world field that were recommended by his disciples. He was very frail in those last days, still many were keen to have his connection, but they could'nt meet him personally nor could he travel at 90 years old to the west, so Srila Govinda Maharaj was begging him to give his graceful connection thru his representitives, also there were Prabhupad disciples starting to take there own disciples everywhere, who weren't fully qualified.

 

Eventually everything was turned over to Srila Govinda Maharaj as Srila Guru Maharaj was showing signs of withdrawal and that's the way it has been ever since. I too was instrumental in this system for a while helping to connect others in emergency mode.

Still I am glad personally I took 1st and 2nd initiation direct from Srila Guru Maharaj, as this whole ritvic controversy can confuse those connected through a representitive of the Guru, due to that Iskcon division. It served a purpose for time and circumstance, but i have my reservations if the spiritual master is not still on the planet.

Still the point is that he was present and accepted those disciples in his name and line, even chanting on their beads.

I see deception in that kind of propaganda.

Sridhar Maharaja had ritviks from the time he first authorized Sudhira Maharaja to open a temple in San Jose, California.

Eventually, he authorized a few more ritviks for other parts of the world.

 

In the end, he withdrew authority from all these ritviks except for Govinda Maharaja and in his final declaration of spiritual succession he said in his own words that "from now on Govinda Maharaja will represent me as ritvik".

 

I know that most all he followers who accept Govinda Maharaja do not accept any post-samadhi ritvik concept.

I don't live in a cave.

However, I just look at the words of Sridhar Maharaja and I make my own judgements about the message he was sending to his followers all over the world that Govinda Maharaja would be his ritvik "from now on".

I don't care for interpretations or status-quo practices that came into vogue after his departure.

Sridhar Maharaja said that "from now on" Govinda Maharaja shall represent him as ritvik in the position of successor acharya to SCSM.

 

I accept the words of Sridhar Maharaja, not interpretations or adjustments made after his departure.

 

Govinda Maharaja was elevated beyond ritvik by his followers.

It was not the specific words of Sridhar Maharaja that gave them authority.

They did it out of love, sentiment and respect.

 

I think they did a disservice to Srila Sridhara Maharaja in doing so and failed to see the message he was sending to the whole Krishna consciousness movement with his ritvik appointment of Govinda Maharaja.

 

I don't think that anyone becomes acharya by the act of their spiritual master passing away.

 

Many gurus in the movement were made into gurus by neophyte devotees with a very immature understanding.

I don't believe that a following of neophyte devotees makes anyone a self-realized acharya.

 

I know Govinda Maharaja is a wonderful and great devotee, but I wish they all could have seen the purpose of Srila Sridhar Maharaja in appointing his successor as a ritvik.

His purpose was very broad and thoughtful and was in the best interest of the whole Krishna consciousness movement.

That purpose was defeated and I am very disappointed.

[Guest guest]

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj

Discussions about Srila Govinda Maharaj

with Doctor Asthana

from a tape recording on 29 April, 1987

 

 

Dr Asthana: I am a little worried about Srila Govinda Maharaj's position.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: I have given him, I have empowered him, to do all these things on my behlaf: Rtvik. I have appoited him to do all spiritual activity on my behalf.

 

Dr Asthana: But this "Rtvik" word is misinterpreted by many people.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: They may do so.

 

Dr Asthana: Some do not consider him as a direct successor; they consider him only as a Rtvik.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: More than Rtvik.

 

Dr Asthana: Eh?

 

<b>Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: More than Rtvik. Whatever it may be, I am giving power. Just as "yauva-raja". When the King installs his son as King and retires himself, what will be the result? As Dasarath wanted to do with Ramchandra. The King gives all the authority of a king to the son and retires to go to the jungle although he is living with full power and glory.</b>

 

Dr Asthana: Many people I have talked to do not consider the Rtvik to be the direct Guru. They say the Rtvik is Rtvik.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik is Rtvik, but if such transfer of power is done then what harm? For those that have got no sraddha, they may go away. They may not accept. I do not care. I don't accept them.

 

Dr Asthana: Does Rtvik mean the direct successor?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik means the representative. It may be temporary or it may be permanent. It may be partial or it may be full, as empowerment is there.

 

Dr Asthana: Is the empowerment to Govinda Maharaj now temporary or permanent?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Permanent. Wholesale - both property and the function - transferred. If anyone has no recognition of this opinion of mine, I do not want them to live in the Mission. I drag them out.

 

Dr Asthana: But can they still operate from outside and still operate as part and parcel of you?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: As a revolt. That is a revolt - without sanction - anyone can do. I have deserted them. But they may do anything and everything as they wish and reap the results far from the spiritual world, from God. Unlawful.

Power may be extended and withdrawn also - I want to withdraw myself from them. Those that won't have faith in my decision. I withdraw from them. It is not a fashion but a question of faith. If they have no such faith in me, I withdraw myself from them.

 

Dr Asthana: Some devotees may consider, "That power (of Rtvik) was given to me in 1982 or '84, and he got that power in '86 so I am more senior.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: No position of seniority. No position of senior. That only seniority will be considered as the qualification - no.

 

Dr Asthana: I was thinking of sending all the senior devotees a letter trying to make this thing clear so that later on no complication like that comes up because at that time we will be very insecure when other types of interpretation start.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: According to their faith - what to think? What to say? Those that do not obey me after my departure means automatically they will be left by me. Only it is a transaction of faith. No right but faith. If no faith in my word, they are automatically rejected.

 

Dr Asthana: Some people have no particular obligation of faith to anyone. They go to many persons to gather something. They are just interested in knowledge and position.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: We have no concern with them. We hate them. We hate them: we don't think that they have any religious line in life.

In a very crude position maybe there will be some collecting (of knowledge) here and there when one cannot understand who is who.

 

Dr Asthana: They are just like an encyclopaedia.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: They are not fit (to see) that God is coming to him (and) through whom. If I am sincere in my search for God then God also will come to me from His side, and where we meet, he should be considered the Guru. Guru means representative of God Himself.

 

Dr Asthana: Yes we all agree with it. There are many traps and loopholes in these types of things, Maharaj, and some will play on this their whole life. They will think out how to manipulate the situation.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: The importance of life - life-giving and (life)-taking is not so important to them.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Govinda Maharaj has told some of them, "No, you are a disciple of Guru Maharaj, and I am your Godbrother."

 

Dr Asthana: He can leave that instruction and give new instruction. Or we can call the devotees here and ask you to tell them.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: You may classify them into two (my disciples and Govinda Maharaj's disciples). There are my disciples also, and if what they do Govinda Maharaj does not accept, they will be rejected.

 

Dr Asthana: Although I have taken both initiations from you, under your instructions I am taking all instructions also from Govinda Maharaj. I am considering Govinda Maharaj as siksa-guru.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Yes, siksa-guru.

 

Dr Asthana: So, they (the new initiates) should all consider him as diksa-guru. But I know that some people can twist each matter to their convenience and ultimately put (down) Govinda Maharaj.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: The ambitious party and those who want name and fame rather than the substance itself.

 

Dr Asthana: I want to make it absolutely clear once again. They will not oppose you and it will be beneficial.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: I have told on many occasions, "If you cannot take from Govinda Maharaj and accept him as Guru, you are to go away."

 

Dr Asthana: It is advisable to write letters to all the people saying that whoever has taken initiation from Srila Govinda Maharaj will be considered as a direct disciple of Srila Govinda Maharaj.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Not to create havoc now. What will be - after me.

 

[srila Govinda Maharaj arrives and joins the conversation]

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: They are respecting me, no doubt, but I am thinking that everyone is Srila Guru Maharaj's disciple. And that is good for me. But what you are saying, that also has some right.

 

Dr Asthana: But Srila Guru Maharaj has made you the successor to run this Math.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Yes, that is correct -

 

Dr Asthana: So, how will this Math run? Once Srila Guru Maharaj disappears they will go away, then what will you do alone? You will run the whole thing alone?

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Not alone.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Whoever will suppor him, he will run the Math with them.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: I am with my Godbrothers. I am not alone.

 

Dr Asthana: This is what I am saying, you have to have a certain number who you can consider now as your disciples.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: If anybody wants to take initiation from me, that is another thing, but everyone is coming from outside and they are asking for initiation from Srila Guru Maharaj and I am officiating by way of giving initiation on behalf of Srila Guru Maharaj. This is the position at present.

 

Dr Asthana: So how to stop this position?

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Yes, we can stop it immediately, that is no problem. The problem is that they have some special regard and respect for Srila Guru Maharaj.

 

Dr Asthana: I may have some special regard and respect for Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, but that does not mean that I can ask Srila Guru Maharaj to give me initiation on behalf of Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: That is not applicable in this case.

 

Dr Asthana: Yes. I may have some special regard for Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, but it is not that I can come to Srila Guru Maharaj and say, "Give me initiation on behalf of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur."

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: No. You are to think this: they have a special regard for Srila Guru Maharaj therefore they are coming here. They are not coming for me.

 

Dr Asthana: If they are not coming for you, they should not come here.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: That is your desire maybe.

 

Dr Asthana: I wish for Srila Guru Maharaj to express his desire. I feel that Srila Guru Maharaj should make this absolutely clear.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Srila Guru Maharaj said that those who cannot respect Govinda Maharaj, they cannot stay in this Math.

If Srila Guru Maharaj will say, "If anyone wants to take initiation from me, then he must take initiation from Govinda Maharaj and that is enough for him (the devotee)." This statement is a correct statement as per your idea.

 

Dr Asthana: My idea is that Srila Guru Maharaj has stopped giving initiations and anyone who wants to accept the disciplic succession of Srila Guru Maharaj should now come to Srila Govinda Maharaj. And all the grace of Srila Sridhar Dev-Gosami Maharaj will come more if you worship Srila Govinda Maharaj than if you try to worship Srila Sridhar Maharaj directly. It is like one trying to worship Krishna directly and another trying to worship Krishna through Radharani. I do not have any confusion.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Now please stop.

 

Dr Asthana: There may be some chaos and confusion, so, Srila Guru Maharaj, please make this clear.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: We do not want any quantity (large numbers of disciples), but quality.

 

Dr Asthana: I am insisting upon this because I know what is going to happen later on.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: The seed of initiation is only sraddha. Sraddha is the only seed of initiation. They have sraddha to Guru Maharaj - full faith - then they are coming here. Therefore it is very difficult to transfer them to another person. Later we can settle. Now Srila Guru Maharaj wants to stop.

 

Dr Asthana: If they want to be Srila Sridhar Maharaj's direct disciple, it is not good for them. Now they should go to Srila Govinda Maharaj. Therefore they should accept this decision.

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj: Srila Guru Maharaj told it before.

 

Dr Asthana: I have more mercy from Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur because I am a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. I have more mercy from him than a direct connection with Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, because I have accepted his disciple as my Guru. It is the same way in your case, otherwise how will the disciplic succession run?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Parvati Devi asked Shiva, "Who is the highest Lord to be served" Shiva replied, "Narayana". aradhananam sarvvesam visnor aradhanam param. Then Parvati Devi was a little mortified to think, "I am not serving Narayana". tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarchchanam. - this next line came from Shiva, meaning, "Those who serve the servants of Narayana are greater devotees than those who serve Narayana directly." This is because they serve both of them. Do you follow?

 

Dr Asthana: I don't understand the Sanskrit.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: If anyone loves you, and if someone loves your son, the one who loves your son will be considered to love you more than those who love you directly and not your son. Do you follow that?

 

Dr Asthana: Yes, I follow.

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: It is like that. Shiva said, "aradhananam sarvvesam visnor aradhanam param" - Of all the worshippers, the worshippers of Vishnu are the highest.tasmat parataram devi tadiyanam samarchchanam" - And even it is the case that those who worship the servants of Vishnu, - they are higher worshippers of Vishnu." Hearing this, Parvati Devi was very much satisfied to think, "I am serving the servant of Vishnu, my Lord, Shiva".

"If you love me, love my dog."

[Guest guest]

You mean to say the thousands of disciples, godbrothers, Sanyas disciples, disciples of Swami Maharaj, and from other lines, even Guru Maharaj's godbrothers all got it wrong, and you got it right due to your spiritual vision of the inner arrangments of divinity. I would say there are a lot of devotees, not nessacarily neophytes in the line of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat math who didn't just take the word of Srila Sridhara Maharaj but who also recognized the divine empowerment in SGovM's nature.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj didn't just give Srila Govinda Maharaj a position to initiate on his behalf, that only stood while Srila Guru Maharaj was still present, which is proper proceedure while ones spiritual master is present.

He told on various occasions "SGovM was a Suddha Bhakta."

Right from his first meeting with him 43 years earlier, after knowing him one week, he said SGovM would be his successor acharya. And in his latter days he told a vast assembly that "a connection to him was as good as one to me."

Even further that perhaps S Govinda M knows more than I do about Krsna Consciousness. He didn't hand out such honorable praise to just anyone.

Those who were very close to both of them saw them as nondifferent.

 

Then he finally demanded he take the chair of the acharya of Sri Chaitanya Sawaswat Math or he would leave the world immediately.

This put SGovM in a very difficult position as he didn't want that chairbut couldn't reject Srila Sridhara Maharaj's wish, later he would admit Guru Maharaj knew what he was doing better than his own mind, when he saw his worldly duties and attachments dissolve.

But he only did so on the order of Srila Sridhara Maharaj, but very reluctantly as he never thought he was qualified.

 

What's wrong with living in a cave anyway? The Mrs might not be too happy, but life may be a lot simpler.

[Guest guest]

Excuse me the above post #94 was submitted while I was nutting out a reply 95. I think it says it all if you say you can extract your own conclusions, by all means I hope you come up with the right ones.

[Guruvani]

 

Excuse me the above post #94 was submitted while I was nutting out a reply 95. I think it says it all if you say you can extract your own conclusions, by all means I hope you come up with the right ones.

 

Well, I certainly don't see anything in that conversation with the Mr. Asthana that disproves that Sridhar Maharaja appointed Govinda Maharaja as ritvik for the post-samadhi era.

Why do so many people find the "ritvik" concept to be so repulsive and denigrating?

If Sridhar Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada both used the ritvik concept to empower disciples then that is glorious and wonderful. It is not a snub of anybody.

Because little minds see ritvik as denigrating and deprecating, they consider a bad thing or a minimizing of someone.

It is nothing about minimizing anyone.

 

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik is Rtvik, but if such transfer of power is done then what harm? For those that have got no sraddha, they may go away. They may not accept. I do not care. I don't accept them.

 

Dr Asthana: Does Rtvik mean the direct successor?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik means the representative. It may be temporary or it may be permanent. It may be partial or it may be full, as empowerment is there.

 

Dr Asthana: Is the empowerment to Govinda Maharaj now temporary or permanent?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Permanent. Wholesale - both property and the function - transferred. If anyone has no recognition of this opinion of mine, I do not want them to live in the Mission. I drag them out.

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja clearly said that a ritvik appointment can be partial or it may be permanent, depending on the empowerment of the acharya.

 

Everybody is saying that a ritvik appointment expires upon the passing of the acharya, but Sridhar Maharaja clearly said that it can be permanent as well.

 

In fact he clearly says in the above conversation that the ritvik appointment of Govinda Maharaja is "permanent and wholesale".

That about says it all.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaj didn't just give Srila Govinda Maharaj a position to initiate on his behalf, that only stood while Srila Guru Maharaj was still present, which is proper proceedure while ones spiritual master is present

 

that is all interpretation and manipulation.

you have no documented statement from Sridhar Maharaja that confirms that.

 

all we have is the ritvik appointment that was "permanent and wholesale".

 

If you have got any proof that Sridhar Maharaja ever put a time limit on the ritvik appointment then show us.

there is no such thing.

[Guruvani]

 

He told on various occasions "SGovM was a Suddha Bhakta."

I have never said that he wasn't. I believe that he is.

Even if he is, does that disqualify him from being a ritvik?

Why does being suddha-bhakta translate to mean that he cannot function as ritvik if empowered by Sridhar Maharaja to do so?

 

This donkey mentality of trying to make ritvik into something bad or something derogatory is part of the whole problem with all of you who think ritvik appointment is some kind of derogatory allegation.

 

When a disciple inherits a matha or a mission of an acharya, he cannot but be a "representative". Sridhar Maharaja said ritvik means "representative".

What is so derogatory about being the representative of Sridhar Maharaja or Srila Prabhupada?

It seems quite glorious to me.

 

One cannot inherit an acharya's mission and be anything BUT a representative (ritvik) of that acharya.

 

Srila Prabhupada was a successor to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, as was Srila Sridhar Maharaja because they had to break away from the mother Matha and form their own missions. They are true acharyas.

Those who inherit some position or some Matha or mission of the acharya MUST necessarily be representatives (ritviks) of the acharya. That is their actual position.

 

If they want to be full-fledged acharyas then they need to start their own Matha or mission.

That is the difference between successor and ritvik.

Successor establishes his own mission.

Ritviks inherit some Matha or mission and represent the founder-acharya of that mission.

 

Doctor Asthan asked Sridhar Maharaj if Govinda Maharaja would be his "successor" and Sridhar Maharaja clearly responsed that he will be ritvik.

 

 

Dr Asthana: Does Rtvik mean the direct successor?

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik means the representative. It may be temporary or it may be permanent. It may be partial or it may be full, as empowerment is there.

 

Sridhar Maharaja is asking what harm is there is in appointing ritviks?

 

 

Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj: Rtvik is Rtvik, but if such transfer of power is done then what harm?

 

There is no harm and there is nothing in shastra that prohibits and acharya from appointing ritviks.

[Guruvani]

 

You mean to say the thousands of disciples, godbrothers, Sanyas disciples, disciples of Swami Maharaj, and from other lines, even Guru Maharaj's godbrothers all got it wrong,

yep, that is exactly what I am saying.

the masses have always been cheaters and cheated.

 

those who actually grasped the real desire of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja are a very small few.

 

it's not the nature of these masses to have it right.

those who have it right are a rare few.

 

those are the rare few who don't have any interest in position, properties and prestige.

they only want truth, no matter how bitter a pill it is to swallow.

 

you have to step outside the position seekers and the property keepers to find the truth.

I'm sorry to say that, but from what I can see it is the actual situation.

 

those who only want truth and not position or property have a right to be the successor of the spiritual thought.