What are the qualities of a guru you can trust?

[Guruvani]

 

So much contradiction. Why split hairs over ritvik or diksha guru or acarya?

If one is setting the example of bhakti and seva in the present, why would the past be such a large consideration? Why would "api cet sudaracaro" not apply? We don't want our past to be considered in the land of mercy but we want it applied to others. Sounds a bit hypocritical. Live and let live is the best policy. Why should it be open season on those whom many consider their guru? (in many camps). Best to error on the side of caution, lest we fall off the precipice of vaisnava aparadha.

 

Here again. your response is based upon your view that ritvik is something nasty, something terrible, something derogatory.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE SAFFRON!

RITVIK IS A VERY GLORIOUS THING!

Following the wording, the teaching and the decree of Sridhar Maharaja is not splitting hairs.

Why split hairs?

 

Then why do the followers of Govinda Maharaja have such an issue with the ritvik appointment of Sridhar Maharaja?

They are the ones splitting hairs and trying to deviate from the decree of Sridhar Maharaja and say that Govinda Maharaja is NOT a ritvik.

 

Following Sridhar Maharaja is not splitting hairs.

 

Trying to find a way to get around or circumvent his appointment of Govinda Maharaja as ritvik and trying to discredit that position is definitly splitting hairs.

[Beggar]

Think about it. If your logic holds true then you are in a superior position to Govinda Maharaja. At least you could potentially come to the postion of love of God and be a regular guru or acarya. But according to your reasoning Govinda Maharaja would be forever stuck in the ritvik position, blocked by decree from obtaining a postion that even you have potentional to attain. Does that make sense? Not to me. Maybe then we could accept the GBC postion on the origin of the soul. Since we've been to the material world and feasted on stool in hog bodies we will never fall down again. But in the GBC conception, the internal devotees of Krsna Loka could fall and eventually become stool eaters in some life. So this makes us better that the parishads. Whew! What a close call. If I was a sincere servitor I may also have been sent to the land of ritvks for eternity. I guess I caught a break this time!

[Guruvani]

The proper attitude should be...

 

"Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave us the ritvik concept. He started the whole ritvik process himself at his Matha. As such this ritvik thing is very precious, it is a jewel, it is the concept given us by our glorious master.

So, we love the ritvik idea. We cherish the ritvik idea, because it was given to us by our great acharyadeva."

 

Instead, how do knucklehead neophytes react?

 

they say...

 

"oh this ritvik thing is nonsense. this ritvik thing is derogatory to Govinda Maharaja. This ritvik thing is big put-down. We hate ritvik!"

 

This is so childish and foolish.

 

In short, they act like bubblehead fools and deride a very important concept that was given to them by Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

It's really pathetic to see how foolish and stupid some devotees can be as they try to blame this ritvik concept on anybody except the two great acharyas that both instituted and implemented this system.

[Guruvani]

 

Think about it. If your logic holds true then you are in a superior position to Govinda Maharaja. At least you could potentially come to the postion of love of God and be a regular guru or acarya. But according to your reasoning Govinda Maharaja would be forever stuck in the ritvik position, blocked by decree from obtaining a postion that even you have potentional to attain. Does that make sense? Not to me. Maybe then we could accept the GBC postion on the origin of the soul. Since we've been to the material world and feasted on stool in hog bodies we will never fall down again. But in the GBC conception, the internal devotees of Krsna Loka could fall and eventually become stool eaters in some life. So this makes us better that the parishads. Whew! What a close call. If I was a sincere servitor I may also have been sent to the land of ritvks for eternity. I guess I caught a break this time!

 

Here again, you are insinuating that being regular guru or acharya is better or higher than being ritvik.

It's not.

Besides that Sridhar Maharaja said that Govinda Maharaja would be the successor acharya in a ritvik capacity.

So, being ritvik does not mean he is not regular guru and acharya.

 

One thing Govinda Maharaja can claim that nobody else can claim is that NOT ONE OTHER person was appointed as the successor to Sridhar Maharaja except Govinda Maharaja.

 

Sridhar Maharaja said he would act as acharya AND RITVIK.

 

Govinda Maharaja IS guru, he IS acharya and he was supposed to be all those things IN A RITVIK CAPACITY.

 

If he does not execute his ritvik duties that were assigned to him by his gurudeva, then there is some question as to whether or not he is actually acharya or not.

 

His being acharya was in connection with his being ritvik.

 

If he follows the orders of his guru to be ritvik, then he is acharya.

[Guest guest]

January 21, 1999 VNN2893 See Related VNN Stories

 

Sridhara Maharaj Did Not Support Ritvik Doctrine

 

 

----

BY B. V. TRIPURARI SWAMI

 

EDITORIAL, Jan 21 (VNN) - It has recently come to my attention that certain proponents of the Ritvik doctrine in Iskcon have been trying to use statements made by Sri Srimad Bhaktiraksaka Sridhara Maharaja as indicative of his support of their misconceived ideas. I would like to state unequivocally that this is an example of taking something out of context, or looking to find something to support one's view while ignoring other overwhelming evidence. This is not particularly surprising, as this is exactly what the Ritviks do in relation to Prabhupada's desire.

 

"Here are the exact quotes from His Holiness Sridhara Maharaja: "With this I transfer these beads; from now he [Govinda Maharaja] will do so on my behalf as ritvik. The ritvik system is already involved both here and in the foreign land. The ritvik is the representative, so if you want to take [initiation] from me and you take from his hand then it will be as well and as good as taking from me."

 

Here Sridhara Maharaja makes Govinda Maharaja the official ritvik for himself for all initiations at the Math. Previous to this, some of us were acting as ritviks in other places, initiating on behalf of Sridhara Maharaja. At the Math however, he did all initiations directly himself. During this period, we were also initiating our own disciples. Sridhara Maharaja's policy was that we initiate, some with his order to do so, others with his blessing but still all "at our own risk." Those persons whose faith we could not secure were to be brought directly to Sridhara Maharaja, or we were to initiate them on his behalf in foreign lands. Several initiations of new disciples by ourselves took place at the Math. Sagara Maharaja initiated some disciples there, as did Narasingha Maharaja. Sometimes new devotees chose to be initiated by ourselves even after being in the presence of Sridhara Maharaja. Not that we were more qualified, rather the parampara was in place with his blessing and they felt that. During all of this, Govinda Maharaja was not acting as ritvik, much less initiating his own disciples, as per the etiquette. So the above was a new development, done with the intention of establishing Govinda Maharaja as Sridhara Maharaja's successor for Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math and all of its branches. At that time the official branches were Puri, Hapaniya, and London. Other missions such as those of Paramadvaiti Maharaj, B. S. Goswami, B.K. Giri, B.A. Sagara, etc., and my own were independent of Sridhara Maharaja's institution by his express desire.

 

"In the maha mandal [earth] Sagar Maharaja [formerly Akshayananda Swami] and many others, they are also ritviks of Swami Maharaja [srila Prabhupada] and also myself and they may do so. But in this Math he, Govinda Maharaja will be the representative. Henceforth he will represent me in this affair beginning from today's function."

 

Here Sridhara Maharaja uses the word ritvik as representative of himself. While speaking he remembers Prabhupada and wants to assert that those of us who were initiating on Sridhara Maharaja's behalf already in certain instances as detailed above were also representing Prabhupada, and not just himself, as we were Prabhupada's disciples. So he has humbly mentioned Swami Maharaja, as if to say that it was due to his influence as well that people were coming to him for initiation.

 

"Now I shall go from here, [depart the material world] he will do the necessary on my behalf. He will give Hari Nama, diksa, sannyasa and everything."

 

After this Sridhara Maharaja remained for some time and initiations took place at his Math through Govinda Maharaja. All of these disciples were considered to be Govinda Maharaja's disciples. In the meantime we continued the approved policy of initiating our own disciples as well as on behalf of Sridhara Maharaja at our own discretion. Sridhara Maharaja made it clear that Govinda Maharaja was to succeed him as the acarya of his institution, and after his departure all new initiates did indeed become Govinda Maharaja's disciples. This is the status today.

 

Other than this, in Gaudiya Math most gurus considered themselves to be humbly representing Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. They did not consider themselves to be fully liberated souls, yet they humbly took up the task of initiating in the spirit of strictly following the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. Thus they "kept Prabhupada in the center." At the same time they were aware that responsibility for delivering their disciples was their own. This is a distinct characteristic of all branches of Gaudiya Math other than ISKCON. Hence the criticism from members of Gaudiya Math when a new Prabhupada appeared and seemed to be claiming to be fully liberated, etc., while "changing" many of the established policies of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur.

 

Actually Prabhupada also felt himself to be merely carrying out the orders of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and that his qualification for initiating was only that he followed his liberated guru strictly. Due to unique circumstances abroad, Prabhupada's own physical distance from Gaudiya Math due to his household life, and his personal spiritual power, his branch came out apparently different even while being substantially the same. Unfortunately much of this was misunderstood by members of Gaudiya Math, as it was by Prabhupada's own disciples. While Gaudiya Math sometimes took Prabhupada to be overshadowing Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and inappropriately making himself out to be a fully liberated soul, ISKCON has made him the Sampradaya Founder Acarya and more, even going so far as to displace Sri Rupa and Mahaprabhu Himself.

[Guruvani]

 

Think about it. If your logic holds true then you are in a superior position to Govinda Maharaja.

 

show me one statement from Govinda Maharaja where he denies being a ritvik.

 

devotees come for initiaton and he gives it to them.

 

I can assure you that in his heart Govinda Maharaja thinks of himself as a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Before he passes he will make this clear to everyone and the ritvik system will be the future of Sri Chaitanya Saraswata Math.

 

His attitude is to let new devotees think what they like about him being their guru, but I can assure you that Govinda Maharaja considers himself a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

As I said, ritviks such as yourself have now deemed yourselves more qualified than not only senior ISKCON devotees but also SCSM devotees. So anyone who doesn't accept the ritvik propaganda is deluded and not following the Guru's instructions! You deride others of being deluded but it's about time your lot of ritviks engaged in some self-introspection.

 

 

The proper attitude should be...

 

"Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave us the ritvik concept. He started the whole ritvik process himself at his Matha. As such this ritvik thing is very precious, it is a jewel, it is the concept given us by our glorious master.

So, we love the ritvik idea. We cherish the ritvik idea, because it was given to us by our great acharyadeva."

 

Instead, how do knucklehead neophytes react?

 

they say...

 

"oh this ritvik thing is nonsense. this ritvik thing is derogatory to Govinda Maharaja. This ritvik thing is big put-down. We hate ritvik!"

 

This is so childish and foolish.

 

In short, they act like bubblehead fools and deride a very important concept that was given to them by Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

It's really pathetic to see how foolish and stupid some devotees can be as they try to blame this ritvik concept on anybody except the two great acharyas that both instituted and implemented this system.

[Kulapavana]

 

Govinda Maharaja IS guru, he IS acharya and he was supposed to be all those things IN A RITVIK CAPACITY.

 

 

so what is this ritvik capacity?

 

how is a "regular" acharya or guru different than a "ritvik" guru?

[Beggar]

<!-- END TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit -->Sounds like a convoluted and unneccessarily complex way at arriving at a simple point," If he follows the orders of his guru to be ritvik, then he is acharya". If a disciple perfectly follows the orders of his guru then he is an acharya. Then what's the profound nature of the "ritvik appointment"? There wouldn't be any, so whats the point? Like I always say "better to be a monitor guru than a Monitor Lizard for Monitor Lizards speak with a forked tongue.

[Guruvani]

 

January 21, 1999 VNN2893 See Related VNN Stories

 

Sridhara Maharaj Did Not Support Ritvik Doctrine

 

 

----

BY B. V. TRIPURARI SWAMI

Tripurari Maharaja is standing in the face of the direct orders of Sridhar Maharaja that have been recorded and published for the whole world to see and saying that it is not true.

Well, I am sorry.

I can read Srila Sridhar Maharaja's orders myself and I can see that Tripurari Maharaja is in big denial.

 

Sridhar Maharaja also rejected Tripurari Maharaja as his siksha disciple when Tripurari Maharaja disobeyed him and insulted him at his Matha.

 

I don't haved any faith in what Tripurari Maharaja says about these things.

 

He's got a long history that proves he is not a genuine follower of Sridhar Maharaja anyway.

[Guruvani]

 

so what is this ritvik capacity?

 

how is a "regular" acharya or guru different than a "ritvik" guru?

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained...."on my behalf he will give harinama, diksha, sannyasa and everything".

 

So, the ritvik concept means "on behalf" of the acharya I am giving you this mantra.

 

So, it means that the initiation is done "on behalf" of the acharya.

Thus, that makes the disciple officialy a disciple of the acharya instead of the ritvik.

 

That's the whole idea in a nutshell.

[Guest guest]

So what kind of Acaryas are Srila Prabhupada & Srila Sridhar Maharaja? To the best of my knowledge, they did not receive any such instruction from their Guru. SO they must self-appointed?!

 

Welcome to the amusing world that speculation can lead one into!

 

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained...."on my behalf he will give harinama, diksha, sannyasa and everything".

 

So, the ritvik concept means "on behalf" of the acharya I am giving you this mantra.

 

So, it means that the initiation is done "on behalf" of the acharya.

Thus, that makes the disciple officialy a disciple of the acharya instead of the ritvik.

 

That's the whole idea in a nutshell.

[Guest guest]

re: post #115

second grey section

 

 

MATH TEXT: SYMBOLIC REASONING 101

CHAPTER: MATH PROBLEM IN THE MATHA

PAGE 108

 

1) question: A U R = ?

 

 

PAGE 108

TEACHER'S EDITION

 

1) answer:

 

Let set A be the statement by SSM of "...an Acharya of this Math..."

 

Let set R be the statement by SSM of "...he will initiate on my behalf as ritvik..."

 

What is the U [union] of sets A and R?

Answer: {Set A} U {Set R}

"...an Acharya of this Math..." PLUS "...He will initiate on my behalf as ritvik..."

 

 

I propose that a Math literacy test be administered in the future in the Matha

to all prospective applicants to College of Gopis.

 

PS - Some branches of Hinduism have four living acharyas. Nobody has any problem with that. Acharya means they teach by example. Some people have no problem with more than one person can teach by example.

[Guest guest]

Ritvik or acharya, either way, Srila Govinda Maharaja is Srila Sridhara Maharaja's chosen successor.

 

If you want to get a conclusive answer to these matters you are discussing, why not write an email to Srila Govinda Maharaja and ask him what he has to say about this.

 

If you write to Srila Govinda Maharaja, you always get a reply. So why speculate when you can know FOR SURE what the answer is.

[Guruvani]

 

Ritvik or acharya, either way, Srila Govinda Maharaja is Srila Sridhara Maharaja's chosen successor.

 

If you want to get a conclusive answer to these matters you are discussing, why not write an email to Srila Govinda Maharaja and ask him what he has to say about this.

 

If you write to Srila Govinda Maharaja, you always get a reply. So why speculate when you can know FOR SURE what the answer is.

Well, the declaration of spiritual succession of Sridhar Maharaja and his appointment of Govinda Maharaja is there for everyone to see.

They have it on the SCSM website in the profile of Sridhar Maharaja.

 

I KNOW what Sridhar Maharaja spoke.

I know his formal and official declaration of succession and appointment of Govinda Maharaja as ritvik.

 

I don't need to ask Govinda Maharaja or anyone else about that because the words of Sridhar Maharaja are quite self-explanatory.

 

I have no need to ask Govinda Maharaja is he thinks he is ritvik or not.

 

Why?

Because if he gave me the wrong answer that would ruin the good opinion I have of Govinda Maharaja and I would rather not take a chance on that.

 

I prefer to just think that he considers himself a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja.

That way I can be respectful.

 

If he told me directly that he was NOT a ritvik of Sridhar Maharaja, then I would lose my high appeciation for him for disobeying Srila Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Let me just keep my fantasy that Govinda Maharaja is being faithful to the instructions of Sridhar Maharaja?

OK?

[Kulapavana]

 

Sridhar Maharaja explained...."on my behalf he will give harinama, diksha, sannyasa and everything".

 

So, the ritvik concept means "on behalf" of the acharya I am giving you this mantra.

 

So, it means that the initiation is done "on behalf" of the acharya.

Thus, that makes the disciple officialy a disciple of the acharya instead of the ritvik.

 

That's the whole idea in a nutshell.

 

so according to that understanding, from now on forever, these two disciplic lines - one from Srila Prabhupada, and the other from Srila Sridhar Maharaja, will have only disciples of these gurus, just like in the Sikh tradition all Sikhs are disciples of Guru Nanak?

 

Is it possible that such a doctrine makes these two lines into apa-sampradayas in accordance with the Gaudiya tradition?

 

and what precisely is gained by such a new system? after all, in a way, once you are initiated into a particular disciplic succession, you become disciple of all previous gurus as well - that is the traditional understanding of Vaishnavism we already have.

 

so, after Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja there will be no more great devotees worthy of inclusion in the honor roll of the sampradaya? that's it for the next 5000 years, eh?

 

how very sad and uninspiring...

[Guruvani]

 

So what kind of Acaryas are Srila Prabhupada & Srila Sridhar Maharaja? To the best of my knowledge, they did not receive any such instruction from their Guru. SO they must self-appointed?!

 

SELF-REALIZED not self-appointed.

See, when you become self-realized and become a liberated soul there is no question of sanction or authority to be guru.

The novices who are practicing sadhakas cannot become deified in guru mantras and worshipped like the siddha bhaktas are.

So, these novices can only function as ritviks because they have not attained svarupa-siddhi and become infallible liberated souls.

 

So, we are watching soccer games at the Math on satellite TV.

[Guruvani]

 

so according to that understanding, from now on forever, these two disciplic lines - one from Srila Prabhupada, and the other from Srila Sridhar Maharaja, will have only disciples of these gurus, just like in the Sikh tradition all Sikhs are disciples of Guru Nanak?

 

Is it possible that such a doctrine makes these two lines into apa-sampradayas in accordance with the Gaudiya tradition?

 

and what precisely is gained by such a new system? after all, in a way, once you are initiated into a particular disciplic succession, you become disciple of all previous gurus as well - that is the traditional understanding of Vaishnavism we already have.

 

so, after Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja there will be no more great devotees worthy of inclusion in the honor roll of the sampradaya? that's it for the next 5000 years, eh?

 

how very sad and uninspiring...

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur started the whole process of taking initiation from deceased gurus, as he took sannyasa from his deceased guru and gave himself the sannyasa mantras.

 

So, you can call it apa-sampradaya or whatever you like, but a lot has changed since the days of Vaidica brahmans when spiritual knowledge only came down through a very discreet and closed system of direct apprenticeship.

With the advent of Mahaprabhu, what was once a secret and closed network of gurus and disciples became BROADCAST.

 

Spiritual knowledge was BROADCAST freely on the streets!

This movement is Mahaprabhu's movement really and even Srila Prabhupada and Sridhar Maharaja were just ritviks of Mahaprabhu.

 

Actually, all gurus and all ritviks are working on BEHALF of Mahaprabhu the guru of the whole universe.

[Guest guest]

post #94

29 April 1987

SSDGM with Dr. Asthana

 

SSDGM: "...We hate them. We hate them:..."

 

 

 

Shocking. It just sounds like another variation of: "God told me to HATE YOU!"

Something is wrong with people shopping around looking for the Truth? And if they see something wrong [major corruption] here, then they have to go there? They see something wrong there [sychophants to a deluded person]

then they try another group? We are supposed to hate people like that?

 

Again, sounds like the beginning of a cult mentality originated with the founders. Not to minimize or disparage the good things. But I can't imagine the Dalai Lama saying "We hate them". Then again, guess that's why the Dalai Lama got nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and SSDGM didn't. Sad.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur started the whole process of taking initiation from deceased gurus, as he took sannyasa from his deceased guru and gave himself the sannyasa mantras.

 

that is another logical stretch...

taking sannyasa vesha is a minor element of sadhana compared to the acceptance of a spiritual master. BST was a revolutionary who carefully considered the pros and cons of various options when it came to re-introducing the institution of sannyasa to our tradition and chose what he considered the safest or best option.

 

it is actually very interesting that he took sannyasa from a babaji, not another sannyasi - all kinds of nectar is hidden there

[Kulapavana]

 

Shocking. It just sounds like another variation of: "God told me to HATE YOU!"

 

 

Gaudiyas are not afraid to be emotional, or to express themselves in very emotional terms. It is part of the tradition. You do not understand the person and the context.

[Guest guest]

 

so according to that understanding, from now on forever, these two disciplic lines - one from Srila Prabhupada, and the other from Srila Sridhar Maharaja, will have only disciples of these gurus, just like in the Sikh tradition all Sikhs are disciples of Guru Nanak?

 

 

 

When some disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta proposed a ritvik system after the disappearance of their beloved guru, it was Sridhar Maharaja who famously observed, "We are not Sikhs!"

 

Remember, too, that before he started initiating his own disciples, Sridhar Maharaja for a time directed sincere seekers to take non-ritvik diksha from Bhakti Saranga Maharaja and others. If he had considered himself authorized (or even capable) of offering ritvik on Bhaktisiddhanta's behalf, do you think he would have turned away those who approached him for diksha? Of course not!

 

Sridhar Maharaja was not a Sikh, nor did he wish to adopt Sikh principles into his guru-varga.

[Guest guest]

By the way, Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja began giving diksa while his own Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura was still personally present in this world. He did that, after being personally instructed to do that by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Dozens of people were present when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura instructed him "you can give diksa". Amongst them, Srila Sridhar Maharaj. And by the way, too, for one year Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was a temple president of one of the temples of Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja. You can read all about this year when he was "temple president" in the Lilamrtam. Take a look.

 

Self effulgent Acharya? I guess you would have to say that Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaja was a self effulgent Acharya. After all, he was born in the family of Nityananda Prabhu, and he was a diksa guru in 1936.

[bija]

 

so, after Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja there will be no more great devotees worthy of inclusion in the honor roll of the sampradaya? that's it for the next 5000 years, eh?

 

how very sad and uninspiring... quote by kulapavana

sad and uninspiring...I'll go a step further and say, 'quite stifling really'.

 

Movement is dynamic, progressive and evolving...if not so, non-movement will pass away into history and books. Time will tell....

 

The Caitanya-Bhagavata even foretells of a Vyasadeva penning more glories of Mahaprabhu...

[Beggar]

 

So, we are watching soccer games at the Math on satellite TV.

It was a rout. Diksha Gurus 6 Ritviks 0. I'll stick with the diksa and siksa systems. Ritviks don't stand a chance.