Why ISKCON Gurus Get Sick Often?

[bhagavad-gita]

I am not trying to propogate ritvikism through telling that the gurus have been diseased so they are unfit. The real point is why the iskcon gbc promotes obvious deviants as pure devotee spiritual masters who have very clearly voilated prabhupada's instructions? if we read their histories we can get convinced how foolishly deviant they were both in siddhanta and in behaviour. Hence one can easily come to a conclusion that they are conditioned souls. So how can such conditioned souls act as pure devotee gurus? For example, Navayogendra Swami rejected the GBC and accepted ritvikism way back in 1998. During this period he stated that he is giving all his disciples to Prabhupada. For this act, he was suspended as a 'guru'. But once he gave an apology letter to the GBC, he was again reinstated as spiritual master. Doesn't it sound funny?

 

There are countless such ridiculous cases after 1978, the most ridiculous being Bhavananda reinstated as a pure devotee spiritual master in 1985 after he was rejected in 1984 only to be rejected again in 1986. What explanation can any sensible person give for these promotions and demotions ? Can anyone promote someone to be a pure devotee guru? Who among the gbc is qualified to make anyone a pure devotee guru? If none are qualified individually then all of them put together are also not qualified. Doesn't the whole system sound ridiculous?

[bhagavad-gita]

A pure devotee never makes such mistakes in siddhanta and behaviour. One who makes such mistakes is a conditioned soul. So if such conditioned souls act as gurus, they will have to suffer the karma of their disciples which would result in cancer, hepatitis, car crash etc. So it would be better for them to remain just devotee-preachers and leave the job of the guru to a pure devotee.

[Kulapavana]

 

What explanation can any sensible person give for these promotions and demotions ? Can anyone promote someone to be a pure devotee guru? Who among the gbc is qualified to make anyone a pure devotee guru? If none are qualified individually then all of them put together are also not qualified. Doesn't the whole system sound ridiculous?

 

the system is ridiculous because it does not follow the tradition. it is yet another experiment with transplanting Krsna Consciousness in the West. time will tell how well it works. such experiments are unavoidable and Srila Prabhupada started quite a few of them - some worked great, some failed. you judge things by the results.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

it is yet another experiment with transplanting Krsna Consciousness in the West. time will tell how well it works. such experiments are unavoidable and Srila Prabhupada started quite a few of them - some worked great, some failed. you judge things by the results.

 

For preaching and attracting other conditioned souls we can do any kind of experiments. But for being a guru, only a pure devotee can. Experimenting with this can only be disastrous, for it has already been a disaster for ISKCON with gurus falling / dying in regular intervals.

[ksbh]

For someone with a username 'Visnu', I certainly expected more understanding of spiritual subjects and a demonstration of spiritual principles (trnad api sunicena ... if that rings a bell!)

 

Anyways, since you've asked me stop talking whatever the **** mean, tell me dear Visnu, why does the Spiritual Master's body show signs of 'aging' if it is a spiritual body?

 

And please 'read' and attempt to 'understand' some of the posts other devotees have posted, especially Kulapavana and Audarya prabhu's posts. Will give you some understanding.

 

 

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions." (SB 10.4.20, purport)

 

Yes, you should really stop talking **** Mr ksbh.

[Guest guest]

no idea at all

[Beggar]

 

For preaching and attracting other conditioned souls we can do any kind of experiments. But for being a guru, only a pure devotee can. Experimenting with this can only be disastrous, for it has already been a disaster for ISKCON with gurus falling / dying in regular intervals.

I don't see the logic in equating falling and dying One should certainly aspire to get the association of a pure devotee, but what is the use if we don't aspire to become pure devotees ourselves? If we focus on the faults of others instead of ourselves it is a sure sign that we are not following the process the pure devotees are giving in their talks and books. As already stated by others, trnad api sunicena...Sri Gaura-Purnima,Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.38 Lecture by Srila Prabhupada, Mayapur, March 16, 1976

 

 

trnad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

[Cc. Adi 17.31]

If you want to chant Hare Krsna mantra, then you have to take this principle, trnad api sunicena. You have to become humbler than the grass. Grass, it is lying on the street. Everyone is trampling down. Never protests. In the lawn you are... Everyone is trampling the grass. There is no protest. Taror api sahisnuna. And tolerant than the tree. The tree is giving us so much help. It is giving us fruit, flower, leaves, and when there is scorching heat, shelter also. Sit down underneath. So beneficial, still, we cut. As soon as I like, I cut it down. But there is no protest. The tree does not say, "I have given you so much help, and you are cutting me?" No. Tolerant. Yes. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has selected, taror api sahisnuna. And amanina manadena. For oneself one should not expect any respectful position, but he, the devotee, should offer all respect to anyone. Amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. If we acquire this qualification, then we can chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra without any disturbance. This is the qualification.

 

[zjj]

I'm not very knowledgeable about these things but it seems to me that most of the replies are correct in saying that we should stop focusing on the faults of others and start worrying about correcting our own faults and weaknesses. I know that i have a ton of faults that need sorting out.

 

I wish I could find a spiritual master to surrender too and help me fight my weaknesses but I have not met him yet. That does not mean that I may go around denigrating other people's spiritual masters. It is not a Vaishnav practice to do such things.

 

I once heard that the reason why some gurus get sick is because they are so merciful that they take the bad karma of their disciples and suffer it for them. They have the strength to live with the reactions of that karma so they protect their disciples in this way.

 

Who are you, or I, or anyone to say that just because someone has committed a misdeed in their past, that he is not a good person now? Was not Valmiki a hunter and a murderer, before Narad gave him initiation in Rama Nama? Narad couldn't even initiate him in the proper manner because Valmiki was so impure. Narad told Valmiki to recite Mara Mara Mara very quickly, which turned in to Rama Rama Rama as he chanted. He then became so purified that Brahma selected him to write the story of Rama, in the worlds first epic poem. If that isn't evidence that we have the chance to improve ourselves, what is?

 

Haribol.

 

All glories to the devotees.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

I don't see the logic in equating falling and dying One should certainly aspire to get the association of a pure devotee, but what is the use if we don't aspire to become pure devotees ourselves? If we focus on the faults of others instead of ourselves it is a sure sign that we are not following the process the pure devotees are giving in their talks and books.

This is not such a problem that you can just brush it aside and see the good alone. Do you know how much bad-name and faithlessness a fall-down of a guru in iskcon can cause? All the good work that Prabhupada and his followers did in America from 1966 - 1977 were spoiled by the bad propaganda of fallen gurus like Kirtanananda who committed homosexual activities, and swindling money. All this is because of projecting some conditioned souls as gurus. It is utter selfishness on your part to foolishly tell that "If we focus on the faults of others instead of ourselves it is a sure sign that we are not following the process the pure devotees are giving in their talks and books."

 

Infact this kind of sentimental blind adherence is what the ISKCON GBC also wants out of its devotees living in their temples world-wide. When Harikesh fell-down (another conditioned soul projected as pure devotee guru), thousands of devotees in Europe and Russia lost faith in the process of Krishna consciousness and the European BBT fell into irrepairable loss. Many temples in European countries were closed down because this rascal Harikesh swindled 5 million dollars and spoiled the faith of devotees who were forced to believe that he was a pure devotee from the time they were introduced to Krishna consciousness.

 

The problem today is Prabhupada's position is eclipsed by the present zonal / voted-in acharyas who take an image of the leader. When they become leaders they expect all other ISKCON devotees to follow them. Just imagine if one such big leader guru in India happens to fall. If that happens all the temples in India will suffer because of the faithlessness created in the hearts of the devotees and bad propaganda that would follow. The faith of devotees living in these temples is not based on Prabhupada. But on these big gurus. That is the way they have been trained and taught.

 

The only remedy is to stop projecting anyone as a guru and leave it to the individual devotees to decide for themselves on whom they should accept as guru.

 

So ultimately when these conditioned-gurus accept disciples they will have to suffer the karma of the disciples which may result either in fall downs or accidental death or death caused by deadly diseases. This has never been the case with any of the previous acharyas in our sampradaya who were pure devotees.

[sanatan]

 

...

Usually pure devotees don't get afflicted with such deadly diseases. Which pure devotee in our sampradaya has passed away with fatal diseases or in car crashes?

....

 

This whole discussion has involved post-Srila Prabhupada ISKCON. The post-Caitanya Mahaprabhu Gaudiya-sampradaya is a huge tree with many branches...the only nonspeculative way to have a such a discussion would be to research the history of the sampradaya in pre-ISKCON India and discover how past acaryas actually did pass away...how many of them suffered from very poor general health or debilitating disease, died in accidents, etc.

[bhagavad-gita]

 

As regards your foolish claim that these great devotees are not bonafide because Krishna did not protect them, well then Haridas Thakur must have been a really fallen person because Mahaprabhu didn't protect him when he was being beaten and dragged through the market place. Get some intelligence!

 

When Haridas Thakur was beaten in 21 market places, Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took those beatings on his own back. Please study these histories before giving your sentimental views.

 

You say Lord Caitanya didn't protect Haridas Thakur, but the actual story is Caitanya took the beatings on his own back, protecting Haridas from any harm at all. This is how the Lord protects his devotees.

 

Now please reflect on your comments: "Get some intelligence!" and "your foolish claim". You do not know what the scriptures say, but you were quick to insult me. Now that you know the real story is opposite to what you said, are you ready to call yourself foolish and start looking for some intelligence?

[zjj]

 

Hmm ... Is it practise of Hindusm for a guru to take Karma of others onto themselves?

 

I don't remember any practise like that in the Vedas or the Gita. But I do know that Christian Priests follow the same methods though.

 

In the Puranas we see examples of Guru Brhaspati performing yagnas and penance to remove the bad effects of the Devatas karma. He protects them with his purity and takes their ills upon himself.

 

This is nothing at all like what Christian priests do. Christian priests say that all a person need do is confess and they will be forgiven by the priest on behalf of god! To me, that seems to be a dangerous presumption on the priests part, that whomever they forgive is forgiven in the eyes of god. Our acharyas take on the karma of their disciples but they know that there will be bad effects. Nothing is forgiven just like that because every act must have a reaction. This is science, not blind belief.

 

Also, it is possible for a pure devotee to fall. Look at Vishvamitra. He had reached the pinacle of purity with his penance. He even became a Brahma Rishi, the highest state of Rishi there is, self realised in every way. Yet the sound of Menaka's tinkling jewellery made him fall into lust. Once he came to his senses and returned to austerity, he was restored to his previous position. Even Lord Rama himself accepted Vishvamitra as a guru, and served him. Does this not show that it is possible to fall and yet be a pure devotee? If Rama can forgive a fallen devotee, why cannot we?

 

Haribol.

[Kulapavana]

 

This is not such a problem that you can just brush it aside and see the good alone. Do you know how much bad-name and faithlessness a fall-down of a guru in iskcon can cause? All the good work that Prabhupada and his followers did in America from 1966 - 1977 were spoiled by the bad propaganda of fallen gurus like Kirtanananda who committed homosexual activities, and swindling money. All this is because of projecting some conditioned souls as gurus.

 

you are partially right here. such abominable and unfortunate events should not be simply brushed aside, as they did not matter. but what is the root cause? the root cause IMO is over emphasizing the role and position of individual gurus without stressing the role and importance of Lord Balaram as Sri Guru. thus the cult of guru becomes a personality cult.

 

yes, it was somewhat of a lie when devotees like Rameshvara, Kirtanananda, Harikesh and others were presented as "as good as God" to people in general, because most devotees were bound to misunderstand such statements of the shastra, including the gurus themselves.

 

as long as these devotees were fully surrendered to Krsna and Prabhupada's mission, Lord Balamara was pleased with them and acted THROUGH them, inspiring their disciples. and when they bacame puffed up, arrogant, thinking themselves to be worthy of their position and worship - their power was taken away from them by Lord Balaram, and they fell down and became ordinary people with ordinary desires and problems.

 

as long as Krsna consciousness movement continues to focus on personality cults, these problems will continue. Iskcon is not the first Gaudiya branch to have such problems. read about the kartabhaja movement in 18th and 19th century Bengal and you will see that Iskcon is simply repeating their history. dont think that maintaining a personality cult centered on w worthy guru like Srila Prabhupada is the answer. it is not. a cult is a cult. You have to focus on Krsna and see ALL gurus in relation to Him alone.

[krishnadasa]

its an indirect phenomenon! when someone becomes a desciple, he is fully surrendered to the Guru and thus guru becomes responsible for deeds of the desciple

 

hari hari bol

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Also, it is possible for a pure devotee to fall. Look at Vishvamitra. He had reached the pinacle of purity with his penance. He even became a Brahma Rishi, the highest state of Rishi there is, self realised in every way.

Does the Guru fall?

Indian man (1): Prabhupada, a devotee, very often after chanting why they develop very, very high. I see a lot of devotees, they falls down back to the maya. What is the reason?

 

Prabhupada: He is not devotee. He's pretending to be devotee. One who is devotee never falls down. There are so many false devotees. He falls down.

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." - Bhagavad Gita 4:42

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence." - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.14

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." - Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya-Lila, 22.71

 

"A Spiritual Master is always liberated. In any condition of His life He should not be mistaken as ordinary human being. " - Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamal Krishna, 21/6/70

 

"The pure devotee's body is therefore called cin-maya-sarira ("spiritualized body"). In other words, a devotee's body is not connected with material activities, and as such, a devotee is always liberated (brahma-bhuyaya kalpate), as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.26)." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.22.26

 

"A pure devotee, who is free from all material desires experienced on the mental platform and who is also free from empiric philosophical speculation or fruitive activity, is always above material conditioning and is always liberated." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.65

 

"In a spiritual body the devotee becomes a direct associate of the Lord, but even though a devotee may superficially appear to be in a material body, he is always liberated and is engaged in the same duties of service to the Lord as a devotee in Vaikunthaloka. There is no distinction."

[gopal sakha]

 

Does the Guru fall?

Indian man (1): Prabhupada, a devotee, very often after chanting why they develop very, very high. I see a lot of devotees, they falls down back to the maya. What is the reason?

 

Prabhupada: He is not devotee. He's pretending to be devotee. One who is devotee never falls down. There are so many false devotees. He falls down.

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." - Bhagavad Gita 4:42

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence." - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.14

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." - Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya-Lila, 22.71

 

"A Spiritual Master is always liberated. In any condition of His life He should not be mistaken as ordinary human being. " - Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamal Krishna, 21/6/70

 

"The pure devotee's body is therefore called cin-maya-sarira ("spiritualized body"). In other words, a devotee's body is not connected with material activities, and as such, a devotee is always liberated (brahma-bhuyaya kalpate), as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.26)." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.22.26

 

"A pure devotee, who is free from all material desires experienced on the mental platform and who is also free from empiric philosophical speculation or fruitive activity, is always above material conditioning and is always liberated." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.65

 

"In a spiritual body the devotee becomes a direct associate of the Lord, but even though a devotee may superficially appear to be in a material body, he is always liberated and is engaged in the same duties of service to the Lord as a devotee in Vaikunthaloka. There is no distinction."

 

How does all that figure in situations where we see eternal parshadas like Rupa and Sanatan Goswami who are eternal devotees but who fell down from Brahminical culture and dined with and associated closely with Muslims?

We see examples of many great pure devotees, even parshadas who appear to fall into maya and do all sorts of material things?

 

How many great devotees and parshadas have appeared in this world as materialists, meat-eaters and karmis?

What about Bhaktivinode? What about his having been Christian at one point and into brahmoism at another time?

 

The extreme fanatical use of certain things Srila Prabhupada said to certain persons for certain reasons cannot be used to undo what he wrote in his books about apparent falldowns of devotees.

 

There are scriptural references that seem to contradict what Srila Prabhupada said in this conversation to this Hindu gentleman.

 

Should I post scripture to explain my point?

Let's take a broader more comprehensive look at everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about devotees who fall down.

 

Let's not let this one statement in some conversation eclipse everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about fallen devotees.

[zjj]

 

 

Does the Guru fall?

 

Indian man (1): Prabhupada, a devotee, very often after chanting why they develop very, very high. I see a lot of devotees, they falls down back to the maya. What is the reason?

 

Prabhupada: He is not devotee. He's pretending to be devotee. One who is devotee never falls down. There are so many false devotees. He falls down.

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." - Bhagavad Gita 4:42

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence." - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.14

 

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." - Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya-Lila, 22.71

 

"A Spiritual Master is always liberated. In any condition of His life He should not be mistaken as ordinary human being. " - Srila Prabhupada Letter to Tamal Krishna, 21/6/70

 

"The pure devotee's body is therefore called cin-maya-sarira ("spiritualized body"). In other words, a devotee's body is not connected with material activities, and as such, a devotee is always liberated (brahma-bhuyaya kalpate), as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.26)." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.22.26

 

"A pure devotee, who is free from all material desires experienced on the mental platform and who is also free from empiric philosophical speculation or fruitive activity, is always above material conditioning and is always liberated." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.65

 

"In a spiritual body the devotee becomes a direct associate of the Lord, but even though a devotee may superficially appear to be in a material body, he is always liberated and is engaged in the same duties of service to the Lord as a devotee in Vaikunthaloka. There is no distinction."

 

This was a very long and thorough post but you did not once address my comment about Vishvamitra. He did fall. Are you going to deny that?

 

Don't forget that Prabhupada was trying to strengthen and encourage his disciples so a lot of what he said was in an effort to make them understand their path. He had to make it very clear that they should not fall. But a lot of them still did, through their own weaknesses. Prabhupada was a merciful guru and even though so many of his disciples fell, I've heard many stories about disciples who felt that he was still with them, looking after them and protecting them even after they left the movement. That is what a true guru does.

 

You can't possible deny that Lord Rama was Vishnu. Right? But Lord Rama accepted and served Vishwamitra as a Guru, even though Vishvamitra had fallen once before. So does Lord Rama's opinion not count?

 

Haribol.

[gopal sakha]

Let's allow Lord Krishna to weigh in on this issue.

 

api cet sudurâcâro

bhajate mâm ananya-bhâk

sâdhur eva sa mantavyah

samyag vyavasito hi sah

WORD FOR WORD

api -- even; cet -- if; su-duracarah -- one committing the most abominable actions; bhajate -- is engaged in devotional service; mam -- unto Me; ananya-bhak -- without deviation; sadhuh -- a saint; eva -- certainly; sah -- he; mantavyah -- is to be considered; samyak -- completely; vyavasitah -- situated in determination; hi -- certainly; sah -- he.

TRANSLATION

Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

Visvamitra didn't fall from pure devotion. He had attained the status of brahmarshi, but he was full of pride and enmity for Vasishtha. That's why he fell. After that fall, he applied himself in better consciousness and attained the devotion that made him Sri Rama's guru.

[ksbh]

Gopal prabhu,

 

Great post, very eloquently written. Certain instructions are meant for certain people. We should be careful to reference conversations of Srila Prabhupada with other people. In a book that Giriraj Maharaj wrote, he described a conversation that Srila Prabhupada had with a young American who had trouble understanding why chanting was so special if all service to Krsna was transcendental. He argued that it shouldn't matter if he didn't chant as long as he was engaged in other service. They went back and forth and finally Prabhupada said to him "Chant your 16 rounds, have prasadam and sleep all day, I have no objection" *(not the exact quote but words to that effect). Imagine if we were to take that line and claim that all we need to do is chant 16 rounds and we can sleep all day!

 

 

How does all that figure in situations where we see eternal parshadas like Rupa and Sanatan Goswami who are eternal devotees but who fell down from Brahminical culture and dined with and associated closely with Muslims?

We see examples of many great pure devotees, even parshadas who appear to fall into maya and do all sorts of material things?

 

How many great devotees and parshadas have appeared in this world as materialists, meat-eaters and karmis?

What about Bhaktivinode? What about his having been Christian at one point and into brahmoism at another time?

 

The extreme fanatical use of certain things Srila Prabhupada said to certain persons for certain reasons cannot be used to undo what he wrote in his books about apparent falldowns of devotees.

 

There are scriptural references that seem to contradict what Srila Prabhupada said in this conversation to this Hindu gentleman.

 

Should I post scripture to explain my point?

Let's take a broader more comprehensive look at everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about devotees who fall down.

 

Let's not let this one statement in some conversation eclipse everything in the books of Srila Prabhupada about fallen devotees.

[ksbh]

I stand corrected, please accept my apology for the harsh language and lack of courtesy.

 

In another post, you claim that ISKCON has degraded after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. I'm not surprised you see it that way ... If you adopt the attitude of the common fly, you'll only find the rotten things because that is what you're looking for. ISKCON has done many wonderful things in the last 30 years. I've personally seen scores of people take up Krsna Consciousness. Many more temples have been built giving people a chance to understand Krsna Consciousness. I've seen vidoes of Chinese devotees chanting Hare Krsna. How is it that you don't see any of that? If you wish to remain blind to all of this and continue your blasphemy of senior devotees for very weak reasons, you cannot be convinced.

 

 

When Haridas Thakur was beaten in 21 market places, Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took those beatings on his own back. Please study these histories before giving your sentimental views.

 

You say Lord Caitanya didn't protect Haridas Thakur, but the actual story is Caitanya took the beatings on his own back, protecting Haridas from any harm at all. This is how the Lord protects his devotees.

 

Now please reflect on your comments: "Get some intelligence!" and "your foolish claim". You do not know what the scriptures say, but you were quick to insult me. Now that you know the real story is opposite to what you said, are you ready to call yourself foolish and start looking for some intelligence?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Certain instructions are meant for certain people. We should be careful to reference conversations of Srila Prabhupada with other people.

You failed to see that six out of eight of the quotes were directly from Srila Prabhupada's books. These are not certain instructions meant for certain people. These are Srila Prabhupada's essential teachings, that the guru is a pure devotee and does not fall down:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." - Bhagavad Gita 4:42

 

"The pure devotee is always free from the clutches of Maya and her influence." - Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.14

"There is no possibility that a first class devotee will fall down." - Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya-Lila, 22.71

 

"The pure devotee's body is therefore called cin-maya-sarira ("spiritualized body"). In other words, a devotee's body is not connected with material activities, and as such, a devotee is always liberated (brahma-bhuyaya kalpate), as confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (14.26)." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.22.26

 

"A pure devotee, who is free from all material desires experienced on the mental platform and who is also free from empiric philosophical speculation or fruitive activity, is always above material conditioning and is always liberated." - Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.65

 

"In a spiritual body the devotee becomes a direct associate of the Lord, but even though a devotee may superficially appear to be in a material body, he is always liberated and is engaged in the same duties of service to the Lord as a devotee in Vaikunthaloka. There is no distinction." - Srimad Bhagavatam 9.13.9

The problem is devotees of new gurus reject Prabhupada's own teachings in favour of the teachings of their gurus'. Anything in Prabhupada's books that doesn't agree with their guru's teachings is thrown out, when actually it should be the other way around. We have all seen the results of rejecting the teachings of Prabhupada in favour of some new "33rd pure devotee in the line from Krishna". If everyone remains blind and silent as suggested by some of the posters here, then we will all be wearing Christian robes and chanting the mahamantra in English while attending our choice of one of seven interfaith churches of God (as instructed by Kirtanananda).

[ksbh]

I agree that if it comes from Srila Prabhupada's books, we should adopt it.

 

 

If everyone remains blind and silent as suggested by some of the posters here, then we will all be wearing Christian robes and chanting the mahamantra in English while attending our choice of one of seven interfaith churches of God (as instructed by Kirtanananda).

 

LOL! That's funny. Strange that he would suggest something like that.

[Visnu]

 

For someone with a username 'Visnu', I certainly expected more understanding of spiritual subjects and a demonstration of spiritual principles (trnad api sunicena ... if that rings a bell!)

 

Anyways, since you've asked me stop talking whatever the **** mean, tell me dear Visnu, why does the Spiritual Master's body show signs of 'aging' if it is a spiritual body?

 

Dear ksbh prabhu

 

If you recall, it was YOU who stated (and I quote):

 

"What a load of nonsense. Typical ritvik crap."

 

I simply REPRODUCED YOUR four-letter word above, which was deemed inappropriate language by the moderator, hence he changed it to ****

 

Your understanding of a spiritual master's body being material is unfortunate, for Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"The spiritual master, or acarya, is always situated in the spiritual status of life. Birth, death, old age and disease do not affect him. According to the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, therefore, after the disappearance of an acarya, his body is never burnt to ashes, for it is a spiritual body. The spiritual body is always unaffected by material conditions."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.4.20)

[Visnu]

 

This was a very long and thorough post but you did not once address my comment about Vishvamitra. He did fall. Are you going to deny that?

 

You did not seem to read His Divine Grace's statement very closely:

 

"A bona fide spiritual master is in the disciplic succession from time eternal and he does not deviate at all from the instructions of the Supreme Lord." - Bhagavad Gita 4:42

 

A BONA FIDE spiritual master in the DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION will NEVER fall. Other devotees may fall - in some cases, it is a pastime for our instruction. But don't EVER commit the grave mistake of thinking that a bona fide parampara diksa guru who is empowered by the Supreme Lord to deliver conditioned souls can ever fall.